INWG Conference: AF approved ABU transition

[Майор Хаткевич]

Just arrived to the conference, this was the slide on the board.

[THRAWN]

I will believe it when it is in writing....

[Майор Хаткевич]

I will believe it when it is in writing....

Agreed, but the Nat. Vice Commander is here, so I don't think someone just made it up.

[NIN]

No, probably not.

It may be a semantic difference.  Don't forget, sometimes people truncate things to fit on PPT slides.

However, if I had to bet on what happened, it would be something like "CAP-USAF got the word that HAF actually hacked off on it, and we're just waiting on the administrative paperwork to come from the Pentagon."

[lordmonar]

No, probably not.

It may be a semantic difference.  Don't forget, sometimes people truncate things to fit on PPT slides.

However, if I had to bet on what happened, it would be something like "CAP-USAF got the word that HAF actually hacked off on it, and we're just waiting on the administrative paperwork to come from the Pentagon."

That is almost word for word what the slide says.

[NIN]

No, probably not.

It may be a semantic difference.  Don't forget, sometimes people truncate things to fit on PPT slides.

However, if I had to bet on what happened, it would be something like "CAP-USAF got the word that HAF actually hacked off on it, and we're just waiting on the administrative paperwork to come from the Pentagon."

That is almost word for word what the slide says.

Now that I look at it, the slide says more than what I typed. NVM.  Carry on.

If Gen Myrick is there, I'm pretty sure that this is correct

[Майор Хаткевич]

No, probably not.

It may be a semantic difference.  Don't forget, sometimes people truncate things to fit on PPT slides.

However, if I had to bet on what happened, it would be something like "CAP-USAF got the word that HAF actually hacked off on it, and we're just waiting on the administrative paperwork to come from the Pentagon."

That is almost word for word what the slide says.

Now that I look at it, the slide says more than what I typed. NVM.  Carry on.

If Gen Myrick is there, I'm pretty sure that this is correct

AF LtCol for GLR CAP-USAF is also here. So far a great event, lots of breakouts, and even a Spaatz presentation!

[PHall]

And just like BDU's, there are two types of ABU. The regular ABU and the Ripstop ABU (aka RABU). The RABU is the lighter "Summer" version. They can't be mixed.

[Angus]

Did they say anything about a time table for implementation?  Looks like after my comments recently I need a nice serving of crow. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Did they say anything about a time table for implementation?  Looks like after my comments recently I need a nice serving of crow.

Whenever the AF send written directions, I'm sure they'll publish the timelines.

[abdsp51]

Funny how this hasn't been announced to the populace...

[NCRblues]

Side bar from the uniforms.

The last two points on that slide are oddly worded, no?

What is overlap with a CAC? Changing its term?

I thought we already had an entire regulation filled with our organizational chart?

[lordmonar]

Funny how this hasn't been announced to the populace...

Which part of "waiting for written authorization"  didn't you understand?

[lordmonar]

Side bar from the uniforms.

The last two points on that slide are oddly worded, no?

What is overlap with a CAC? Changing its term?

I thought we already had an entire regulation filled with our organizational chart?

20-1 has been in a re-write for over a year.   I guess they finally made some progress.

Don't know on the CAC except maybe they mean that the terms at each echelon overlap....instead of all being replaced at the same time.

[abdsp51]

Funny how this hasn't been announced to the populace...

Which part of "waiting for written authorization"  didn't you understand?

No misunderstanding.   You and I both know Ma Blue does not move that fast on anything...  A quick blurb saying it's been approved and we are waiting further guidance would be/have been a smart move.  A quick blurb in Eservices or even capmembers.com would have sufficed or better yet even an email like when they announced a proposal was being sent. 

How many members are now going to go buy a set of ABUS now with this being out in one wing and the rest are potentially scratching their heads... 

[lordmonar]

Funny how this hasn't been announced to the populace...

Which part of "waiting for written authorization"  didn't you understand?

No misunderstanding.   You and I both know Ma Blue does not move that fast on anything...  A quick blurb saying it's been approved and we are waiting further guidance would be/have been a smart move.  A quick blurb in Eservices or even capmembers.com would have sufficed or better yet even an email like when they announced a proposal was being sent. 

How many members are now going to go buy a set of ABUS now with this being out in one wing and the rest are potentially scratching their heads...

And?  Should be Zero....including those at the ILWG conference.   Because that is what waiting for written authorization means.

[Angus]

Personally I'm waiting for the announcement only for the change in name tape color.  Figure that dark blue with silver will look great on the BBDU.

[ProdigalJim]

Except it won't look great because Vanguard will be our only manufacturing source.

[PHall]

Except it won't look great because Vanguard will be our only manufacturing source.

AAFES makes CAP Name and Branch Tapes. And they won't get a C&D letter either!

[lordmonar]

Except it won't look great because Vanguard will be our only manufacturing source.

AAFES makes CAP Name and Branch Tapes. And they won't get a C&D letter either!

Nametapes.com still makes thems.   Vanguard only has the monopoly on CAP badges......not silver on navy tapes.....and never has.

[Holding Pattern]

Except it won't look great because Vanguard will be our only manufacturing source.

AAFES makes CAP Name and Branch Tapes. And they won't get a C&D letter either!

Nametapes.com still makes thems.   Vanguard only has the monopoly on CAP badges......not silver on navy tapes.....and never has.

nametapes.com doesn't seem to be active.

[lordmonar]

Except it won't look great because Vanguard will be our only manufacturing source.

AAFES makes CAP Name and Branch Tapes. And they won't get a C&D letter either!

Nametapes.com still makes thems.   Vanguard only has the monopoly on CAP badges......not silver on navy tapes.....and never has.

nametapes.com doesn't seem to be active.

1800nametape.com

[Angus]

Except it won't look great because Vanguard will be our only manufacturing source.

AAFES makes CAP Name and Branch Tapes. And they won't get a C&D letter either!

Nametapes.com still makes thems.   Vanguard only has the monopoly on CAP badges......not silver on navy tapes.....and never has.

Have you been able to get them to make Civil Air Patrol nametapes?  One of the last times the ABU rumor was floating I tried to prep before the onslaught and they wouldn't produce them.  This was white on dark blue which if I recall was the rumor a few years back,

[JacobAnn]

If Gen Myrick is there, I'm pretty sure that this is correct
[/quote]

Not only was he there, this slide was part of his briefing.  I doubt he is going to eat crow on this one.

[SarDragon]

Except it won't look great because Vanguard will be our only manufacturing source.

AAFES makes CAP Name and Branch Tapes. And they won't get a C&D letter either!

Nametapes.com still makes thems.   Vanguard only has the monopoly on CAP badges......not silver on navy tapes.....and never has.

Have you been able to get them to make Civil Air Patrol nametapes?  One of the last times the ABU rumor was floating I tried to prep before the onslaught and they wouldn't produce them.  This was white on dark blue which if I recall was the rumor a few years back,

Anything that says "Civil Air Patrol" comes under CAP's IP rights, and they have actively defended those rights in the past.

[THRAWN]

If Gen Myrick is there, I'm pretty sure that this is correct

Not only was he there, this slide was part of his briefing.  I doubt he is going to eat crow on this one.
[/quote]

It would not be the first time a CAP GO said or did something that later proved to be in error...

[Angus]

Except it won't look great because Vanguard will be our only manufacturing source.

AAFES makes CAP Name and Branch Tapes. And they won't get a C&D letter either!

Nametapes.com still makes thems.   Vanguard only has the monopoly on CAP badges......not silver on navy tapes.....and never has.

Have you been able to get them to make Civil Air Patrol nametapes?  One of the last times the ABU rumor was floating I tried to prep before the onslaught and they wouldn't produce them.  This was white on dark blue which if I recall was the rumor a few years back,

Anything that says "Civil Air Patrol" comes under CAP's IP rights, and they have actively defended those rights in the past.

I realize that.  Hence my asking cause last I knew Vanguard was the only one printing the name tapes that say "Civil Air Patrol", I was trying to find out if the poster had gotten someone else to print them in violation of a C&D Letter that had previously been issued. 

[SarDragon]

And now that someone has posted that info, CAP can go after them (again?).

[Angus]

And now that someone has posted that info, CAP can go after them (again?).

Well last time I tried as I stated was a few years ago and they quoted the C&D to me at that time. Once we here back from Lordmonar if he's actually gotten name tapes that say "Civil Air Patrol" from them, then we know if a new letter needs to be drafted. 

[LSThiker]

I had a company create Civil Air Patrol tapes with velcro on them at one time without any problems.  I merely had an order for my last name and an order that had CIVIL AIR PATROL for the last name.  I was expecting an email saying "sorry we cannot do that" but never got one. 

[PHall]

Except it won't look great because Vanguard will be our only manufacturing source.

AAFES makes CAP Name and Branch Tapes. And they won't get a C&D letter either!

Nametapes.com still makes thems.   Vanguard only has the monopoly on CAP badges......not silver on navy tapes.....and never has.

Have you been able to get them to make Civil Air Patrol nametapes?  One of the last times the ABU rumor was floating I tried to prep before the onslaught and they wouldn't produce them.  This was white on dark blue which if I recall was the rumor a few years back,

Anything that says "Civil Air Patrol" comes under CAP's IP rights, and they have actively defended those rights in the past.

The last set of tapes I brought were ordered from the Clothing Sales at March ARB. They arrived 10 days later, no problems.

[Garibaldi]

Except it won't look great because Vanguard will be our only manufacturing source.

AAFES makes CAP Name and Branch Tapes. And they won't get a C&D letter either!

Nametapes.com still makes thems.   Vanguard only has the monopoly on CAP badges......not silver on navy tapes.....and never has.

Have you been able to get them to make Civil Air Patrol nametapes?  One of the last times the ABU rumor was floating I tried to prep before the onslaught and they wouldn't produce them.  This was white on dark blue which if I recall was the rumor a few years back,

Anything that says "Civil Air Patrol" comes under CAP's IP rights, and they have actively defended those rights in the past.

The last set of tapes I brought were ordered from the Clothing Sales at March ARB. They arrived 10 days later, no problems.

One of our local surplus stores sells CAP tapes, no idea if they buy them from Vanguard or not, but they are very similar in all respects.

[Eclipse]

I realize that.  Hence my asking cause last I knew Vanguard was the only one printing the name tapes that say "Civil Air Patrol", I was trying to find out if the poster had gotten someone else to print them in violation of a C&D Letter that had previously been issued.

There are hundreds of companies that sell colored nametapes, including a small outfit based in Seattle run by a young fellow named Bezos who isn't likely
to be too concerned about an organization asserting legal ownership of common English words, sir names, or insignia used by hundreds of military and civil services.

One need only use Google as your guide to find several hundred, not to mention eBay or Alibaba.  The "Sword of a Thousand Truths" is harder to find.

[lordmonar]

Yes 1800nametape.com will make "civil air patrol" name tapes.   Just ordered them a couple of weeks ago. 

[Angus]

Yes 1800nametape.com will make "civil air patrol" name tapes.   Just ordered them a couple of weeks ago.

Wow, last time I tried to use them to make Civil Air Patrol tapes they refused, and as I  had said I was even going for something that wasn't regulation.  Just what we had heard would be coming.  Maybe national has loosened it's grip then or the exclusivity contract with vanguard has expired. 

[lordmonar]

Yes 1800nametape.com will make "civil air patrol" name tapes.   Just ordered them a couple of weeks ago.

Wow, last time I tried to use them to make Civil Air Patrol tapes they refused, and as I  had said I was even going for something that wasn't regulation.  Just what we had heard would be coming.  Maybe national has loosened it's grip then or the exclusivity contract with vanguard has expired.

Well...I don't know when "last time" was.....but I ordered some ABU tapes with Civil Air Patrol on them a couple of years ago and I just got my Silver on Navy tapes a couple of weeks ago.

Thing is.....it is hard to copy write common English words.  You can trade mark them....but like Eclipse said...I don't think CAP ever went after the name tape people.....it was the guys making knock off wings and badges that Vanguard was worried about.

[Eclipse]

Maybe national has loosened it's grip then or the exclusivity contract with vanguard has expired.

NHQ doesn't have a "grip".  C&D's are simply a request to discontinue a behavior, they hold no legal weight.  Compliance is generally
a mathematical exercise in deciding whether the business lost is worth the hassle of a challenge, which for smaller companies
it usually isn't.

In the case being discussed, the place where the challenge might have stuck was with the badges being printed on flight suit nametags.
Beyond that, legal assertions aside, a challenge would not have likely been sustained in regards to sir names or common English words.

A business agreement regarding exclusivity between two parties does not necessarily preclude others from producing similar products unless
unless one of those parties in question can prove ownership (or granted rights), and usually is irrelevant if they can't prove damages as well.
In this case it's made more complicated because we're not talking about copyright, per se, but rights granted by public law.

[NIN]

I don't think CAP ever went after the name tape people

http://www.1800nametape.com/cap.htm

I've talked to Rob a couple times about it.  its just too big a pain.

You probably shouldn't tell people where you got non-Vanguard stuff from. It just leads to angst.

[argentip]

Side bar from the uniforms.

The last two points on that slide are oddly worded, no?

What is overlap with a CAC? Changing its term?

I thought we already had an entire regulation filled with our organizational chart?

This is now a sidebar from the nametapes discussion.

They are proposing the CAC term (not sure if this is just the NCAC or if it covers all levels) to run concurrent with the Fiscal Year, but to bring the new officers in early so there is a transition period, so that when the new term starts they can hit the ground running.

The Org Chart was an actual org chart that had the positions listed, but not the names.  It includes all the changes that were made when the paid and volunteer positions were restructured a year or so ago.

[argentip]

AF LtCol for GLR CAP-USAF is also here. So far a great event, lots of breakouts, and even a Spaatz presentation!

That would be Lt Col Monyca Uecker the GLLR/CC.  The Spaatz presentation was for C/Col Justin Kantor.  The cool part was that he received his Spaatz Award and was promoted to C/Col in the morning and the KYWG Change of Command took place in the afternoon where his father, Col Dave Kantor, took command of KYWG.

[abdsp51]

If Gen Myrick is there, I'm pretty sure that this is correct

Not only was he there, this slide was part of his briefing.  I doubt he is going to eat crow on this one.

It would not be the first time a CAP GO said or did something that later proved to be in error...
[/quote]

Verbage should say that a package was submitted for approval.  Not that the ABU was approved..

[Майор Хаткевич]

If Gen Myrick is there, I'm pretty sure that this is correct

Not only was he there, this slide was part of his briefing.  I doubt he is going to eat crow on this one.

It would not be the first time a CAP GO said or did something that later proved to be in error...

Verbage should say that a package was submitted for approval.  Not that the ABU was approved..
[/quote]

Or...I'm assuming there is preliminary word of approval, and guidance being written now. We already knew it was submitted, it would say that if that was the stage we were still at.

[Eclipse]

Why say anything?

What's the hurry?  The behavior to model is patience until things are "done" - the marshmallow is very hard not to
eat, so don't put on the table.

[abdsp51]

Or...I'm assuming there is preliminary word of approval, and guidance being written now. We already knew it was submitted, it would say that if that was the stage we were still at.

Then there is favoritism being shown.  What makes INWG more special than the rest? 

Best not to have said anything until the decision was final or sent sonething out to all.  Transperancy or something like that...   But what do I know...

[lordmonar]

It's called a status update.   No harm no foul.  INWG just happened to be the first place to get it. 

You give a stays update in your bread to get a jump on every Tom Dick and Harry that is going to ask "Where are we on the ABUs?"

[abdsp51]

It's called a status update.   No harm no foul.  INWG just happened to be the first place to get it. 

You give a stays update in your bread to get a jump on every Tom Dick and Harry that is going to ask "Where are we on the ABUs?"

Either tell us all en masse or don't say anything until it's done... 

So much for transperancy. 

[lordmonar]

Thats not transparency.  It's poor change management.  But it is transparent to say what you know.  Saying "I can't tell you at this time" is not transparency.

I get your beef.  And it is a good beef.   But it is not a transparency issue. 

[Eclipse]

It's called a status update.   No harm no foul.  INWG just happened to be the first place to get it. 

You give a stays update in your bread to get a jump on every Tom Dick and Harry that is going to ask "Where are we on the ABUs?"

To which you answer - "things will be published when any changes are final", and that's what you put on the slide if you think it's necessary.

Status updates for things are only necessary when you have people who need to take their own action or preparations in anticipation of a change,
and / or when you are trying to keep customers on the hook for future products so they don't spend their money on something else today.

Neither of which is the case here.

There is zero necessity for anyone to "prepare", nor delay purchases in anticipation, since there will be a sundown on the old uniforms,
assuming they are disavowed, which I would hazard won't be for a 2-3 year period.

No one needs to know in advance until this is finalized, unless of course the concern is buying the "uncool uniform", which is a whole 'nother
problem entirely.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Isn't one of the selling points of conferences to be in the know on the latest?

[THRAWN]

Isn't one of the selling points of conferences to be in the know on the latest?

That's part of the reason for having the rep of the national commander there...

[lordmonar]

I Guess it is [darn]ed if yo do and [darn]ed if you don't. 

The slide said we were waiting for final written approval.  But factually told the members were we stand. 

So we (the general members) are in the loop.   But we should stand by for more info. 

I don't see the down side to this.  Except it just allows CAPTALK to grouse about something HQ is doing wrong.   

[NIN]

I Guess it is [darn]ed if yo do and [darn]ed if you don't.

Agree. If an update to 39-1 had just been published in the middle of the night on a Tuesday in July, everybody would complain that it would have been nice to have a little advance notice.

[PHall]

Just a little note on the NHQ Webpage in the News Section would help a lot.

[Chappie]

I Guess it is [darn]ed if yo do and [darn]ed if you don't. 

The slide said we were waiting for final written approval.  But factually told the members were we stand. 

So we (the general members) are in the loop.   But we should stand by for more info. 

I don't see the down side to this.  Except it just allows CAPTALK to grouse about something HQ is doing wrong.

^^^^ Scores a 9.99 for performance and nailing the landing  :clap:  :clap:

[lordmonar]

I Guess it is [darn]ed if yo do and [darn]ed if you don't. 

The slide said we were waiting for final written approval.  But factually told the members were we stand. 

So we (the general members) are in the loop.   But we should stand by for more info. 

I don't see the down side to this.  Except it just allows CAPTALK to grouse about something HQ is doing wrong.

^^^^ Scores a 9.99 for performance and nailing the landing  :clap:  :clap:

Yeah.....but what does the Russian Judge say? They always score me low! 

[calebtornado12]

Does anyone else see that someone in the front might have Chinese take-out? 

[Chappie]

Does anyone else see that someone in the front might have Chinese take-out? 

You are very observant.  But ... Chinese take-out? ? ? ?  Naw...that is too big of a container.   It looks more like a Starbucks coffee box to-go

[calebtornado12]

Hey, who knows, i didn't even think they had boxes that big.

[Chappie]

Hey, who knows, i didn't even think they had boxes that big.

Trust me on the Starbucks to go box for meetings ... BTDT...have the whole t-shirt and mug to go with it 

[calebtornado12]

Ha ha, alright.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Everyone got a goody bag of water and junk snacks.

[calebtornado12]

Was anything else discussed regarding the uniforms at the meeting?

[Chappie]

Everyone got a goody bag of water and junk snacks.

Thanks for solving the mystery of the big box

[Майор Хаткевич]

Was anything else discussed regarding the uniforms at the meeting?

Nope. It was the welcme briefing, and I came in when that slide was on, as I failed to account for the timezone differences.

[Spam]

Best coffee box I ever got was a triple Dunkin Donuts coffee box order, one cold wet rainy PT night at the unit. I had our cadets gulping and cheering after their run...

Starbucks rocks too!

V/R
Non Sequitur

[HGjunkie]

And just like BDU's, there are two types of ABU. The regular ABU and the Ripstop ABU (aka RABU). The RABU is the lighter "Summer" version. They can't be mixed.

Ehhh... officially the NYCO ABU's were phased out from supply and the only official ABU is the RABU (100% cotton), and they're cheaper than the NYCO as well.

[abdsp51]

And just like BDU's, there are two types of ABU. The regular ABU and the Ripstop ABU (aka RABU). The RABU is the lighter "Summer" version. They can't be mixed.

Ehhh... officially the NYCO ABU's were phased out from supply and the only official ABU is the RABU (100% cotton), and they're cheaper than the NYCO as well.

Incorrect the older ABU is still authorized for wear. 

[MSG Mac]

And just like BDU's, there are two types of ABU. The regular ABU and the Ripstop ABU (aka RABU). The RABU is the lighter "Summer" version. They can't be mixed.

Ehhh... officially the NYCO ABU's were phased out from supply and the only official ABU is the RABU (100% cotton), and they're cheaper than the NYCO as well.

Incorrect the older ABU is still authorized for wear.
[/quote

[MSG Mac]

He's saying that the NYCO's are no longer in the supply system. We all know that there is a 3-5 year phase out for old items.

[abdsp51]

He's saying that the NYCO's are no longer in the supply system. We all know that there is a 3-5 year phase out for old items.

The 50/50 blend is still in the system and is the only authorized ABU for the AF minus specific career fields.  There is no phase out date for the.. 

That is per AFI36-2903 including the IC May 2015...

[HGjunkie]

I may have goofed on the specific material used in the RABU, however my point stands about being difficult to mix the new and old ones. Side note, the lighter material wrinkles like crazy and never really looks good out of the wash.