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CAP Chaplain Corps FB page

Started by Майор Хаткевич, March 03, 2016, 08:55:36 PM

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Майор Хаткевич

https://www.facebook.com/CAPchaplains/

Is it me, or is a lot of that content "fluff" that just shouldn't be posted? There's an obvious Christian lean, which I suppose isn't easy to avoid when probably 99% of the Chaplains hail from a Christian denomination, but really...some of the posts I see on facebook (and that get reposted to other CAP related pages) make me cringe at times.


I feel that if a Squadron/Group/Wing posted things of similar caliber, they'd be told to knock it off.

CAPDCCMOM

Is it the "obvious Christian lean", or is the problem a Religious Lean in General?

As was stated, probably %99 percent of the CAP Chaplain Corp is of a Christian denomination. It only stands to reason that the sight would be somewhat Christian based. If the Christian Lean is the problem, then go and recruit qualified Chaplains of other religious denominations. I for one would love to see a Jewish Chaplain, Native American Healer Chaplain, and any other qualified Chaplain of other denominations.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on March 03, 2016, 09:05:18 PM
Is it the "obvious Christian lean", or is the problem a Religious Lean in General?

As was stated, probably %99 percent of the CAP Chaplain Corp is of a Christian denomination. It only stands to reason that the sight would be somewhat Christian based. If the Christian Lean is the problem, then go and recruit qualified Chaplains of other religious denominations. I for one would love to see a Jewish Chaplain, Native American Healer Chaplain, and any other qualified Chaplain of other denominations.


No the main thing is the incessant need to use religious quotes, and due to the breakdown, being christian, at least in all the cases I've seen. Then there's the posts like this:



1) Inappropriate and out of place
2) 6 millennia? I suppose before the Jews there were simply no people/wars/faiths/and prayers for victory?







What?





These are some of the most recent posts, and have exactly what to do with CAP?

CAPDCCMOM

To be honest, I do not participate in any organized religion, I much prefer the disorganized variety. But what you show does not strike me as offensive. It is the Chaplain Corp FB Page. If it is offensive, my humble and most respectful advice is, Do Not Visit the Site.

Problem solved.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on March 03, 2016, 09:41:07 PM
To be honest, I do not participate in any organized religion, I mush prefer he disorganized variety. But what you show does not strike me as offensive. It is the Chaplain Corp FB Page. If it is offensive, my humble and most respectful advice is, Do Not Visit the Site.

Problem solved.


I didn't say it's offensive. I said it appears to me to be inappropriate for a Civil Air Patrol page.

lordmonar

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Holding Pattern

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 03, 2016, 09:35:20 PM

No the main thing is the incessant need to use religious quotes, and due to the breakdown, being christian, at least in all the cases I've seen. Then there's the posts like this:



1) Inappropriate and out of place
2) 6 millennia? I suppose before the Jews there were simply no people/wars/faiths/and prayers for victory?


I think it is worth mentioning that that picture DID come with an explanation...

QuoteMINISTRY OF PRESENCE: For six millennia, armies have marched and fought beside their spiritual-care providers. For centuries chaplains have stood beside police and firefighters during times of crisis and heartbreaking tragedy. The Civil Air Patrol Chaplain Corps is cut from the same cloth and will be there for you. In all our missions, the corps will be there upholding and teaching the core values of our organization and providing moral guidance, and spiritual fitness and resiliency during our hardest times. ‪#‎MinistryofPresence‬ (Photograph of law-enforcement issued chaplain's bullet-proof vest)

I'm not sure how to consider this as inappropriate. Can you break it down for me further?

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on March 03, 2016, 10:02:57 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 03, 2016, 09:35:20 PM

No the main thing is the incessant need to use religious quotes, and due to the breakdown, being christian, at least in all the cases I've seen. Then there's the posts like this:



1) Inappropriate and out of place
2) 6 millennia? I suppose before the Jews there were simply no people/wars/faiths/and prayers for victory?


I think it is worth mentioning that that picture DID come with an explanation...

QuoteMINISTRY OF PRESENCE: For six millennia, armies have marched and fought beside their spiritual-care providers. For centuries chaplains have stood beside police and firefighters during times of crisis and heartbreaking tragedy. The Civil Air Patrol Chaplain Corps is cut from the same cloth and will be there for you. In all our missions, the corps will be there upholding and teaching the core values of our organization and providing moral guidance, and spiritual fitness and resiliency during our hardest times. ‪#‎MinistryofPresence‬ (Photograph of law-enforcement issued chaplain's bullet-proof vest)

I'm not sure how to consider this as inappropriate. Can you break it down for me further?


Quote1) Inappropriate and out of place[/size]2) 6 millennia? I suppose before the Jews there were simply no people/wars/faiths/and prayers for victory?

Holding Pattern

1) You didn't explain how this is inappropriate, just that it was. Please explain how it is inappropriate.

2) Written history doesn't cover events beyond 6000 years ago very well. Perhaps you can provide further information on which groups you think aren't being included by the message?

Chappie

If you would take the time to peruse the entire page, you will find there is diversity within the posts that appear on the site.
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

Chappie

#10
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on March 03, 2016, 09:05:18 PM
Is it the "obvious Christian lean", or is the problem a Religious Lean in General?

As was stated, probably %99 percent of the CAP Chaplain Corp is of a Christian denomination. It only stands to reason that the sight would be somewhat Christian based. If the Christian Lean is the problem, then go and recruit qualified Chaplains of other religious denominations. I for one would love to see a Jewish Chaplain, Native American Healer Chaplain, and any other qualified Chaplain of other denominations.

There is a "religious" lean to the page as observances of other faith groups are highlighted when they occur.   However, there are ongoing series that have no religious bearing that are featured, such as the Character Matters, the Flying Minutememe; the Resiliency series, the Warrior Spirit series, Gratitude series, Spiritual Fitness (based on the USAF material),  the "Ethics and Service" articles by Chaplain, Maj Gary Dickey, items on AE, National Observances, etc.

It is a page that one can either  "like" or "unlike".
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

Chappie

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 03, 2016, 09:35:20 PM
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on March 03, 2016, 09:05:18 PM
Is it the "obvious Christian lean", or is the problem a Religious Lean in General?

As was stated, probably %99 percent of the CAP Chaplain Corp is of a Christian denomination. It only stands to reason that the sight would be somewhat Christian based. If the Christian Lean is the problem, then go and recruit qualified Chaplains of other religious denominations. I for one would love to see a Jewish Chaplain, Native American Healer Chaplain, and any other qualified Chaplain of other denominations.


No the main thing is the incessant need to use religious quotes, and due to the breakdown, being christian, at least in all the cases I've seen. Then there's the posts like this:



1) Inappropriate and out of place
2) 6 millennia? I suppose before the Jews there were simply no people/wars/faiths/and prayers for victory?







What?





These are some of the most recent posts, and have exactly what to do with CAP?

Chaplains are avid defenders, protectors and providers of the free exercise of religion that is guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.  The Chaplain Corps seeks to encourage those members within the organization of the various faith groups to participate in their varied religious expressions of faith and worship.  Though you have selected a couple of recent posts, scroll throughout the previous weeks and months and you will find that postings regarding the observances of all faith groups.
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

lordmonar

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 03, 2016, 10:44:43 PM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on March 03, 2016, 10:02:57 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 03, 2016, 09:35:20 PM

No the main thing is the incessant need to use religious quotes, and due to the breakdown, being christian, at least in all the cases I've seen. Then there's the posts like this:



1) Inappropriate and out of place
2) 6 millennia? I suppose before the Jews there were simply no people/wars/faiths/and prayers for victory?


I think it is worth mentioning that that picture DID come with an explanation...

QuoteMINISTRY OF PRESENCE: For six millennia, armies have marched and fought beside their spiritual-care providers. For centuries chaplains have stood beside police and firefighters during times of crisis and heartbreaking tragedy. The Civil Air Patrol Chaplain Corps is cut from the same cloth and will be there for you. In all our missions, the corps will be there upholding and teaching the core values of our organization and providing moral guidance, and spiritual fitness and resiliency during our hardest times. ‪#‎MinistryofPresence‬ (Photograph of law-enforcement issued chaplain's bullet-proof vest)

I'm not sure how to consider this as inappropriate. Can you break it down for me further?


Quote1) Inappropriate and out of place[/size]2) 6 millennia? I suppose before the Jews there were simply no people/wars/faiths/and prayers for victory?

According to Bishop Usher and the Bible.....the world is only about six thousand years old.....so there's where the six millennium comes from.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

jeders

Honestly, as an atheist I see absolutely nothing wrong/inappropriate with the content you have posted. In fact, the religious freedom post, in case you didn't bother to read the whole thing, includes this:

Quote from: CAP Chaplain FB PageWhat are other ways the chaplain corps can support YOUR faith? That includes those with no specific faith path. We are here for everyone.

Seems to me like they're specifically trying to be inclusive; not exclusive.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on March 03, 2016, 11:01:39 PM
1) You didn't explain how this is inappropriate, just that it was. Please explain how it is inappropriate.

2) Written history doesn't cover events beyond 6000 years ago very well. Perhaps you can provide further information on which groups you think aren't being included by the message?

Written history doesn't have a record of any wars that far back: The first war in recorded history took place in Mesopotamia in 2700 BCE between Sumer and Elam. The Sumerians, under command of the King of Kish, Enembaragesi, defeated the Elamites in this war and, it is recorded, "carried away as spoils the weapons of Elam."

My point on this specific image is that it's neither appropriate - we're not a combat organization, nor is it "inclusive". A simple " for thousands of years" would avoid the Christian 6000 year world age bias.

RRLE

QuoteFor six millennia, armies have marched and fought beside their spiritual-care providers.

There are a few things wrong with that. First there is no proof that chaplains or whatever they were called at the time, "marched and fought" with the armies. The other is that warfare is older than 6,000 years and there is no evidence either way as to the presence or absence of chaplains.

See Talheim Death Pit. 5,000 BC + 2015 CE = 7,015 years. Also see War Before Civilization. 

And although CAP is tied to a military service, CAP itself is a civilian volunteer service that will never again directly participate in a war. So why the emphasis on war and warriors? Why all the old war related photos?

If I were a parent, I'm not, I would be a bit more than slightly concerned as to exactly what motives were driving the chaplain corps since it is hyping itself and its program so much on martial themes.


Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on March 03, 2016, 09:05:18 PM
If the Christian Lean is the problem, then go and recruit qualified Chaplains of other religious denominations.

I glossed over this before, but quite honestly, that's just plain wrong. There shouldn't be ANY lean, especially not when the supposed message is "we're here for you, all of you". Does it take time to find quotes from other faiths, not familiar to you to relate to a subject? I bet. But you could also avoid that by...not using a religious quote. Does the mission of the CAP Chaplain corps include "famous churches of America" trivia? Somehow I doubt that. How about publiclly accessible, "internal" YouTube conferences where the subjects are about reconciling faith and the science behind flight? Where does THAT have a place in CAP?

I get that the Chaplain Corps is a carry over from the military, but perhaps of they lack a real purpose, it's time to close shop.

Chappie

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 04, 2016, 06:05:50 AM
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on March 03, 2016, 09:05:18 PM
If the Christian Lean is the problem, then go and recruit qualified Chaplains of other religious denominations.
<snip>
I get that the Chaplain Corps is a carry over from the military, but perhaps of they lack a real purpose, it's time to close shop. <snip>

For further reading to understand the purpose of the CAP Chaplain Corps: CAPP 221A
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

winterg

I'm not a Christian, but I live in America and know that most of the people around me are. So when I see a Christian lean to anything I just shrug it off unless they are proselytizing.

What has always bothered me about the myriad CAP Chaplain Corps posts is the lack of Photoshop application! Come on. In an organization our size, we shouldn't be putting out material with such a lack of professional editing.  All the white backgrounds around text and images pasted onto photos and misaligned graphics make me cringe.  Lol.

LSThiker

Quote from: jeders on March 04, 2016, 02:00:47 AM
Honestly, as an atheist I see absolutely nothing wrong/inappropriate with the content you have posted. In fact, the religious freedom post, in case you didn't bother to read the whole thing, includes this:

I agree.  As another atheist, I am not really seeing the issue.  While I may not have favorable opinions of the CAP Chaplain Corps, but I do not think any of these items are inappropriate.  It is staying off the main CAP webpage.  CAP, Inc, itself, is not endorsing any particular religion.  Over the years, I think they have tried to be more inclusive than what they were in the past.  I think this is seen most in the MLO to CDI work. 

While I do agree that the Chaplain Corps does take a Christian lean, but that is to be expected as most Chaplains are Christians.  Although I would be curious as to the break down of the general CAP membership by religion just to see how we fair.  (I do not recommend actually doing it though, just that I would be curious if the data are available).   Would be nice to see other religious beliefs represented to include Humanist quotes.   

lordmonar

Quote from: LSThiker on March 04, 2016, 02:50:51 PM
Quote from: jeders on March 04, 2016, 02:00:47 AM
Honestly, as an atheist I see absolutely nothing wrong/inappropriate with the content you have posted. In fact, the religious freedom post, in case you didn't bother to read the whole thing, includes this:

I agree.  As another atheist, I am not really seeing the issue.  While I may not have favorable opinions of the CAP Chaplain Corps, but I do not think any of these items are inappropriate.  It is staying off the main CAP webpage.  CAP, Inc, itself, is not endorsing any particular religion.  Over the years, I think they have tried to be more inclusive than what they were in the past.  I think this is seen most in the MLO to CDI work. 

While I do agree that the Chaplain Corps does take a Christian lean, but that is to be expected as most Chaplains are Christians.  Although I would be curious as to the break down of the general CAP membership by religion just to see how we fair.  (I do not recommend actually doing it though, just that I would be curious if the data are available).   Would be nice to see other religious beliefs represented to include Humanist quotes.
+1 from another atheist.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Flying Pig

I thought it was funny that they felt the need to put a disclaimer on the photo saying it was a law enforcement issued vest

Holding Pattern

Quote from: Flying Pig on March 04, 2016, 05:51:38 PM
I thought it was funny that they felt the need to put a disclaimer on the photo saying it was a law enforcement issued vest

Necessary to prevent people from thinking the picture was somehow inappropriate.

Flying Pig

Well, its an ad for the CAP Chaplain Corps.  So not sure why you would include a photo of "law enforcement issued" body armor. Unless its somehow associated with "standing with warriors".   I will say, as a police officer, Ive never seen a chaplain in the mix with me. 

Chappie

Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on March 04, 2016, 06:15:10 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on March 04, 2016, 05:51:38 PM
I thought it was funny that they felt the need to put a disclaimer on the photo saying it was a law enforcement issued vest

Necessary to prevent people from thinking the picture was somehow inappropriate.

And from people thinking that it was general issue for CAP Chaplains  ;D  The text accompanying the photo did read "For centuries chaplains have stood beside police and firefighters during times of crisis and heartbreaking tragedy.  The Civil Air Patrol Chaplain Corps is cut from the same cloth and will be there for you." 

It should not surprise anyone that many of our CAP Chaplain Corps personnel also serve in their local communities as chaplains/mental health specialists/etc. to the police and fire departments.  One of our Chaplains serves with the Prince William County Police Department.  You can only imagine what his schedule/world has been like since Sunday's tragic murder of one of their officers and shooting of two others in their agency.    I served as a Public Safety Chaplain (Police and Fire), Chaplain to Sheriff's Office for 17 years before joining CAP and continued as a Chaplain with a local agency for another 9 years concurrently with CAP until I was ordered by my physician to give up the LE chaplaincy (pastoring a church and being on call 24/7 to both the church and the agency - responding to call-outs at all hours of the day and night and riding 2 shifts a month finally caught up with me).   Retiring from full time pastoring and securing a job in the government sector in 2003 has provided a stable income and time to pursue my CAP Chaplaincy -- as well as getting my health issues managed. 

The main emphasis of the post is that chaplains don't shy away from tough situations and leave our people to handle things with a sense of being "alone".  There is someone to stand along side of them in these situations -- regardless of their faith background.   A wonderful (now retired) USAF Chief of the Chaplain Service (predates renaming to the Corps) - Chaplain, Maj Gen Lorraine K. Potter referred to chaplaincy as "The Visible Reminder of the Holy". 
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)