Is it time to rethink the 5 year record retention rule?

[Holding Pattern]

It could just be me, but I don't think I've seen a circumstance where people are happy about finding their old records were destroyed. Couldn't we come up with a scenario where after 5 years, the records get digitized and handed off to the care of either IT or squadron historians, or preferably have a place in eServices to cold store the files?

[FW]

Good luck with that... my file is literally a few hundred pages of records dating back to the 60s.  I would not like to deal with the mountain of work required to digitize my own, let alone the records of 10's of thousands of members around the world. 
BTW; it took me over a year, just to digitize my wing's financial records; working 3 days a week. 
Now, if we are just talking about files that are already "in the system", there is no reason they can't be electronically archived.  Would you like to donate the cash for the servers? 

[Lord of the North]

Nice thought but I have to agree with FW.  An additional issue at least in my wing is members were transferred to 000 and their files were never sent to the wing headquarters, who is the custodian for members in 000.  Now I have members that wanted to get active again and can't find their file.  I've also experienced a unit that had a meeting sight in a dedicated building on a local airport which burned to the ground with all member files in the building.  Members should ALWAYS keep a personal copy of their file.

[c172drv]

There are many great highspeed dual sided scanners out there.  I have a Fujitsu ScanSnap that tears through pages super quick.  Nothing says that the records have to be super organized, just scanning them in would be great.  Storage is very cheap now days and we could certainly use a national system to keep our records and retrieve them as well.

[Майор Хаткевич]

There are many great highspeed dual sided scanners out there.  I have a Fujitsu ScanSnap that tears through pages super quick.  Nothing says that the records have to be super organized, just scanning them in would be great.  Storage is very cheap now days and we could certainly use a national system to keep our records and retrieve them as well.

Could also take pictures...much faster, cheap, and still workable.

[Ned]

This is one of those "be careful what you ask for" things.  Such a requirement will impose a new and significant burden on units.

So we should probably try to estimate some sort of rough cost / benefit analysis.

Given our average retention statistics, we probably lose almost 10,000 members a year nation wide.  If we are talking about scanning and discarding the paper after five years, my WAG is that would require about 2-3000 volunteer hours a year.  Plus scanning equipment and some sort of digital storage capability.  And given that this is CAPTalk, we know how happy the units are when we impose new mandates on the already over burdened volunteers.

So against this cost in volunteer time and treasure, we need to estimate the benefits.  As the OP described, undoubtedly there are some members who return after five years.  Mostly seniors, I expect.  And we genuinely appreciate each and every one of our volunteers, even the returning "prodigal sons." 

But - essentially by definition -  most of the 5+ year old scanned records will not be very useful in any event (expired first aid & CPR cards, old medical information forms, old orders appointing folks to various boards or duty positions, expired CAP driver license records, etc.).  Sure, things like PD certificates and awards could be very helpful, but those are also the ones that returning members kept copies of.

So I think we can fairly easily arrive at some sort of cost estimate, but the benefit side of the equation seems difficult to establish.  But I'm not an admin person, so I may be missing something obvious.

Until we can show a positive value that outweighs the burden on the units, we should be cautious about imposing such a requirement.

And of course, it doesn't have to be a "scan it all or trash it" requirement, we could refine it a bit by, say, simple extending the retention period from 5 years to maybe 7 or some other number.

But I think Fred is on the right track - as we increase the things already in the system (grades, PD, ES quals, etc) it should be relatively easy for NHQ to archive existing files.  But that would mean accepting the loss of all the locally stored materials.  Which is what we already do, of course.

[cnitas]

I don't think the answer lies in digitizing paper files and storing them forever, but in what Ned hints at.... We should be striving to make the initial admin data entry as digitized as possible, and eliminate the giant paper filled folders.  National has already moved many of the items online.

PD records - Online
ES Records - Online
Awards - Online
Duty Positions - online
etc.

It is much easier to store information in a database when it was entered directly into it to begin with.  There is no reason we need to store old expired CPR cards in a database.

Get a *good comprehensive admin/personnel system* in place, require everyone to use it, and in 5 years the record retention issue is moot, and takes a huge administrivia workload away from units. 

Now I have no idea what this might cost....but the world is going there.  Both my accounting office and my wife's dental office are 100% digital with all client records in a database.  No paper files at all, and its been that way for 5 years or more.

[Luis R. Ramos]

You are missing the point...

You pay for that dental digital storage even if cheaper through payments to your health insurance or from your pocket...

Your dentist is paying personnel to scan those records, which again you either pay out of your pocket or your dental insurance does...

Are you going to accept NHQ to increase fees to add that extra storage and pay for more personnel? Because if volunteers will not respond to scan, NHQ will need to pay personnel to do so...

[cnitas]

I think I must be missing the point.....What extra workload for scanning are you talking about?  What needs to be scanned if you are entering the data directly into a professional system? 

The data would be entered electronically and kept electronically.  Entered by the local units as necessary, accessible from anywhere with a couple clicks .  We members on the ground already shoulder the burden of tracking and entering data- either on a paper form or into an electronic system.  The difference is with electronics, the form is always the most current, goes to the right place, is date and time stamped, and can be traced when it goes into the black hole.   

FYI- You pay for physical storage and costs associated with paper files as well, and time for someone to file it all away.  It is not 'free' any more than digital storage is free.  Digital storage however is FAR cheaper, lasts almost forever,  and requires fewer personnel to maintain- and its why we see virtually all businesses using it. 

And I did mention it would have a cost associated with it. I just don't know what the price tag looks like.  Right now the cost is borne by each unit individually in toner and paper and space in individual members' closets. 

I do know that many many business have borne the costs to make themselves modern and competitive, and I imagine CAP will eventually need to as well.

[c172drv]

There are many great highspeed dual sided scanners out there.  I have a Fujitsu ScanSnap that tears through pages super quick.  Nothing says that the records have to be super organized, just scanning them in would be great.  Storage is very cheap now days and we could certainly use a national system to keep our records and retrieve them as well.

Could also take pictures...much faster, cheap, and still workable.

My scanner is way faster than my camera.  It does about 20 sheets a minute both sides, plus converts to searchable pdf files.

[JeffDG]

In terms of paying for storage:  Don't

Google Apps for Non-Profits is free.  It provides 30GB of storage per user.  Run out of storage, create a new user id and voila, an extra 30GB of storage.

[c172drv]

I am on board with doing it all digital.  That should be the focus moving forward and the paper should be left for award certificates and the like.  I do see the value in capturing old files and providing a place for them to live.  I don't know that I'd make it mandatory but encouraging it by providing some funds for the hardware and software needed to do so wouldn't hurt.

[c172drv]

In terms of paying for storage:  Don't

Google Apps for Non-Profits is free.  It provides 30GB of storage per user.  Run out of storage, create a new user id and voila, an extra 30GB of storage.

Absolutely a great solution my squadron and now wing has implemented.  I do wish NHQ would get on board and allow us to do this nationally to provide security and continuity between wings when transferring information and the like.

[FW]

Until recently, most of our records were paper. More and more, our records are going online, and there are ways to "backfill" the old stuff. It's the backfill which will take the time, and the "risk to benefit" ratio is such that it would be impractical. Even with each squadron having a high speed scanner, someone would have to take the time and effort to electronically archive and organize them. This is a long and tedious project. IMHO, I wouldn't go there. It would be better to insure each member have a personal copy.

[Lord of the North]

Just add some fuel to the fire.  There is NO requirement in the CAP regulations to create a "Personnel File" or "Personnel Record" nor any stated use or construct for such a file.  There are however numerous references to a personnel file/record.

Additionally, CAPR 39-2 paragraph 1-7 (the regulatory reference provided by the inspection guide) states, in part, "Personnel records should consist of ...". Please note that CAPR 5-4, Publications and Forms Management, paragraph 1b, states that "Should" indicates a non-mandatory or preferred method of accomplishment [non-directive]."

Additionally, since there are no required documents to be placed in a "personnel record (or file), there would nothing in the file if there was a requirement to create such as file.

The easiest solution to the stated non-problem is to have members maintain their own file.

[Luis R. Ramos]

So how do you reconcile what you posted with the Personnel Officer pamphlet? CAPP 200 states:

Training and Performance Requirements

The Personnel Officer technician rating candidate should posses a basic knowledge of the following and be able to :

....
• Ensure new members appear in the membership database and receive their membership card in a timely fashion.
• Set up a personnel log, and file folders for members.
• Assign/appoint members to duty assignments electronically and on paper.
• Process routine promotions electronically and on paper in a timely fashion.....

For brevity I omit some requirements.

Here is where CAP requires units to set up personnel files. Please don't adopt the "pamphlets are not prescriptive." Don't adopt the "should" and "be able" debate either.

[Lord of the North]

CAPR 5-4 paragraph 1i has this to say about pamphlets of which the Level II guide for the personnel office is one of many.

"Pamphlets" are nondirective, informative, "how-to" type publications that may include suggested methods and techniques for implementing CAP policies."

Emphasis is my addition.  So it is clear that a pamphlet is non-directive and therefore not a requirement.

[Luis R. Ramos]

So you wanted to engage in the debate?

The same publication you quote says "J. "Publication" means regulations, manuals, pamphlets, operating instructions, any other documented guidance and supplements thereto. A "directive publication" is a regulation or manual that establishes compliance standards."

Yourself are stating that pamphlets include "suggested methods and techniques for implementing CAP policies."

Therefore it is CAP policy that "units maintain personnel records." Just like the military concept of "tradition," which is not in itself a regulation but it is observed as a regulation!

[Lord of the North]

Then what is required to be in this personnel file. All of the document you find in these files are generally those that are listed in the regulations that states they or "optional" via the "should" statement.

[SarDragon]

Essentially, anything that isn't tracked online - PAs for finds and duty positions not listed in eServices, old Form 5 paper copies to track models qualified in, participation letters, etc. Personally, I have substantiation for my Red Service ribbons because of my broken service. This will be especially important when I submit for my 50 year award.

[SARDOC]

So how do you reconcile what you posted with the Personnel Officer pamphlet? CAPP 200 states:

Training and Performance Requirements

The Personnel Officer technician rating candidate should posses a basic knowledge of the following and be able to :

....
• Ensure new members appear in the membership database and receive their membership card in a timely fashion.
• Set up a personnel log, and file folders for members.
• Assign/appoint members to duty assignments electronically and on paper.
• Process routine promotions electronically and on paper in a timely fashion.....

For brevity I omit some requirements.

Here is where CAP requires units to set up personnel files. Please don't adopt the "pamphlets are not prescriptive." Don't adopt the "should" and "be able" debate either.

I think your interpretation of the quoted statement is misunderstood.  The pamphlet is a suggestion of the training for someone in the Personnel specialty track not a regulation on the unit.

The quoted segment says that thes are skills that someone in the personnel specialty track should possess.  Granted it would be very difficult to demonstrate said skills without actually practicing the skill.  There is no requirement to actually do it or even appoint a personnel officer.

You can just dismiss the "Should" argument because Civil Air Patrol regulations are very clear there is no "Should" argument.

1. Definitions. As used in publications, the following words/terms are defined as indicated:
a. "Shall", "will" or "must", when used in a directive publication indicates a mandatory
requirement.
b. "Should" indicates a non-mandatory or preferred method of accomplishment [nondirective].
c. "May" indicates an acceptable or suggested means of accomplishment [nondirective].

[MSG Mac]

It could just be me, but I don't think I've seen a circumstance where people are happy about finding their old records were destroyed. Couldn't we come up with a scenario where after 5 years, the records get digitized and handed off to the care of either IT or squadron historians, or preferably have a place in eServices to cold store the files?

My suggestion is: spend $1 and mail the records back to the individual. Enclose a stamped post card with the statement "received personnel records on this date" with a line for the signature.

[PHall]

It could just be me, but I don't think I've seen a circumstance where people are happy about finding their old records were destroyed. Couldn't we come up with a scenario where after 5 years, the records get digitized and handed off to the care of either IT or squadron historians, or preferably have a place in eServices to cold store the files?

My suggestion is: spend $1 and mail the records back to the individual. Enclose a stamped post card with the statement "received personnel records on this date" with a line for the signature.

Aren't the records property of the Corperation and not the member?

[Майор Хаткевич]

It could just be me, but I don't think I've seen a circumstance where people are happy about finding their old records were destroyed. Couldn't we come up with a scenario where after 5 years, the records get digitized and handed off to the care of either IT or squadron historians, or preferably have a place in eServices to cold store the files?

My suggestion is: spend $1 and mail the records back to the individual. Enclose a stamped post card with the statement "received personnel records on this date" with a line for the signature.

$1? When was the last time you mailed something? Also, how would we know if they moved or not? What if mail gets stolen?

[Holding Pattern]

Theft of mail really isn't our problem.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Aren't the records property of the Corperation and not the member?

As some of you know, I recently sought advice on how to get my records from my former CC.

As I see it, and I know the regs do not necessarily agree, "The Corporation" has no right to things like copies of my military discharge papers (NGB 22).  That is privileged information.  I remember when I was going through outprocessing for my discharge, the Technical Sergeant in Personnel at my ANGB used those exact words...privileged information.

CAP regs required me to submit a copy when I joined.  As I see it, they no longer have any need/right to those.

[Holding Pattern]

Aren't the records property of the Corperation and not the member?

As some of you know, I recently sought advice on how to get my records from my former CC.

As I see it, and I know the regs do not necessarily agree, "The Corporation" has no right to things like copies of my military discharge papers (NGB 22).  That is privileged information.  I remember when I was going through outprocessing for my discharge, the Technical Sergeant in Personnel at my ANGB used those exact words...privileged information.

CAP regs required me to submit a copy when I joined.  As I see it, they no longer have any need/right to those.

They may not have a need, but they do have the right. You gave that to them the moment you handed the copy in to CAP.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Aren't the records property of the Corperation and not the member?

As some of you know, I recently sought advice on how to get my records from my former CC.

As I see it, and I know the regs do not necessarily agree, "The Corporation" has no right to things like copies of my military discharge papers (NGB 22).  That is privileged information.  I remember when I was going through outprocessing for my discharge, the Technical Sergeant in Personnel at my ANGB used those exact words...privileged information.

CAP regs required me to submit a copy when I joined.  As I see it, they no longer have any need/right to those.

They may not have a need, but they do have the right. You gave that to them the moment you handed the copy in to CAP.

What is their logical purpose in retaining such information on someone they will likely never see again?

[lordmonar]

CAP retains them for 5 years and then destroys them.   As for their "right" you don't have to provide the.....but then you don't get any of the benefits of providing them. 

[William K. Bolan]

I feel that it should up to the member themselves whether they want their records destroyed or not.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I feel that it should up to the member themselves whether they want their records destroyed or not.

Logical.  Which is why it will not happen.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

CAP retains them for 5 years and then destroys them.   As for their "right" you don't have to provide the.....but then you don't get any of the benefits of providing them.

Actually, I was told to provide a copy of my discharge papers.

[lordmonar]

I feel that it should up to the member themselves whether they want their records destroyed or not.

Logical.  Which is why it will not happen.

It is not logical.

If after five years....why should I hold on to useless records?
Who's gonna pay for the long term storage?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^Pat, what I meant was that it is logical for the member to decide what should be done with his/her records when s/he leaves CAP.

As many of you know, this is an issue I am dealing with right now.

When I rejoined in '09, of course I was told to provide a copy of my NGB22 and I duly did so.

For those of you haven't seen one, it's the National Guard's equivalent of DD214 (even though Guard/Reserve personnel get DD214's when released from FAD) and there is a lot of personal, privileged (in the words of my ANG Personnel NCO) information on there that is not germane to CAP.  All CAP really needs is the on-paper official proof of "Good Boy/Girl Discharge," and maybe medals worn if the member chooses to wear them, which one cannot do on the corporate uniforms anyway, nor can State awards be worn on the USAF-type uniform (nor can they be worn if one's Guard unit is called to Federal status; virtually everyone I knew had two sets of ribbon racks because of that).

I fail to see the logic in why a CC who has openly expressed distaste for me (and to be fair, he's not on my Christmas card list either) needs/wants anything to do with me, when hopefully we shall not encounter one another in this world again.

[Storm Chaser]

No document can be required beyond what's prescribed in the regulations. That said, any PII on documents required by CAP, but not needed by CAP can be blacked out. I've done that with certain documents containing my social security number.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

No document can be required beyond what's prescribed in the regulations. That said, any PII on documents required by CAP, but not needed by CAP can be blacked out. I've done that with certain documents containing my social security number.

I was told I had to supply it to prove I had a "good boy" discharge, which I do.

[Storm Chaser]

No document can be required beyond what's prescribed in the regulations. That said, any PII on documents required by CAP, but not needed by CAP can be blacked out. I've done that with certain documents containing my social security number.

I was told I had to supply it to prove I had a "good boy" discharge, which I do.

That would fall under CAPR 39-2, Para. 3-2.d:

d. Suitability. Subject to being waived by the Chief Operating Officer and/or National Commander, as noted below, any one of the following may be the basis for rejection of membership.

          (1) Conviction of a felony by any court of record whether federal, state or military. (Requires both Chief Operating Officer and National Commander concurrence to accept as member.)

                ...

          (3) Discharge from the armed services under other than honorable conditions.

All you need to do is show evidence of an honorable discharge. There's no requirement to turn in this paperwork. And even if you do turn it in, as it shows your military decorations, among other things, there's nothing preventing you from removing certain sensitive/personal information from the copy being handed to your CAP unit.