suspending emergency services specialties for insubordination

[lostdude1664]

I have a case of insubordination from a senior member. He criticizes the unit eso, wont follow ES regs and will take over the training of the unit eso. Highly disrespectful and insubordinate. Can someone like that have their specialty suspended until they work with the eso on becoming respectful and subordinate. Because it is outrageous how badly the senior member treats the unit ESO.

[abdsp51]

First are you a senior member or cadet?  If you a are a cadet not much that you can do.  If you are a senior first and foremost bring the issue to the CC that is ultimately what you should be doing.  Also wrong area to post in.

[lostdude1664]

Thanks, I will do so ASAP. Thanks!

[Storm Chaser]

In addition, while it's up to your commander how he or she wants to deal with this member, ES qualification suspensions should not be used as disciplinary action for issues not related with that specialty or overall performance of a member within the context of a mission or incident.

While being disrespectful to any member, including the ES Officer, is unacceptable and should be addressed, that has nothing to do with the member's ability to perform in that ES specialty. A different scenario would be a GTM3 who will not follow proper procedures or directions from the GTL. Suspending his qual would be more appropriate then.

All that said, we should always address disciplinary issues with the lowest corrective action needed to resolve the issue. You commander needs to talk to the member, evaluate all the facts, then make the decision that seems most appropriate for the situation.

[Larry Mangum]

Only the Wing Commander can suspend a members ES credentials. However a unit CC can deny the member permission to participate in Wing and Unit activities.  Yes, I know CAPR 60-3, paragraph 2-2.e.2 states "If the unit, wing, region, or National Commander has documented reason to believe that the member is not properly qualified, the specialty(s) in question will be suspended in Ops Quals until resolved and that member will not be allowed to participate in operational mission activities in the questioned specialty until qualifications have been verified."however, there is a difference between disrespect and perhaps insubordination and not being qualified in a specialty.

[lostdude1664]

Ah! I see. So members can only be suspended on inability to complete certain tasks required on their specialty, not for disiplinary issues. I see. Thanks for clarifying this I appreciate it. And yes, I will be certain to report this behavior.

[TheSkyHornet]

Removal of qualification should not equate to lack of discipline. A qualification is a response to the completion of training, not responsibility and authority. Don't confuse that with grade.

[Storm Chaser]

Only the Wing Commander can suspend a members ES credentials. However a unit CC can deny the member permission to participate in Wing and Unit activities.  Yes, I know CAPR 60-3, paragraph 2-2.e.2 states "If the unit, wing, region, or National Commander has documented reason to believe that the member is not properly qualified, the specialty(s) in question will be suspended in Ops Quals until resolved and that member will not be allowed to participate in operational mission activities in the questioned specialty until qualifications have been verified."however, there is a difference between disrespect and perhaps insubordination and not being qualified in a specialty.

Colonel, I'm confused. If CAPR 60-3 clearly states (as you pointed out on your post) that any commander can suspend a qualification, how do you conclude that only the wing commander can suspend qualifications? The only requirement in the regulation is that the next higher echelon be notified. Ops Quals certainly allows squadron and group commanders to suspend a qualification. Could it be a local policy in your wing?

[Storm Chaser]

Removal of qualification should not equate to lack of discipline. A qualification is a response to the completion of training, not responsibility and authority. Don't confuse that with grade.

I think you're referring to the distinctions between operational and staff functions, and specialty qualification and mission assignment. There's a degree of authority and responsibility associated to a qualification when exercising those functions in a mission. An IC certainly has authority within the scope of a mission in which he or she is assigned and performing those functions. The same goes for other specialties, such as a GTL during a ground sortie. If the lack of discipline is observed within the scope of a mission, suspension of qualification may be in order. I was involved once in a suspension of a FLS qualification because of multiple documented safety violations in the flight line.

The issue described by the OP, however, doesn't seem to meet that criteria. At least not with the information provided.

[kwe1009]

Ah! I see. So members can only be suspended on inability to complete certain tasks required on their specialty, not for disiplinary issues. I see. Thanks for clarifying this I appreciate it. And yes, I will be certain to report this behavior.

A person's membership can be suspended for disciplinary reasons.  A person's OPs Qual can't be suspended simply because of a disciplinary issue.  OPs Quals are suspended because the member can't/won't do the tasks properly.  You just can't suspend a person's OPs Qual because he was disrespectful to someone.

[lordmonar]

I have a case of insubordination from a senior member. He criticizes the unit eso, wont follow ES regs and will take over the training of the unit eso. Highly disrespectful and insubordinate. Can someone like that have their specialty suspended until they work with the eso on becoming respectful and subordinate. Because it is outrageous how badly the senior member treats the unit ESO.

Yes and no.

The commander can pull his ES certs if he has shown that he is not qualified in that cert.   The commander can pull his certs is he can show the member lacks the good judgment and maturity to participate in emergency services.

The commander can also do several things similar simply based on your asserted behavior that have nothing to do with ES up to and including termination.

So.......my advice is to take all your accusations to your commander and lay it out at his/her feet and let him/her take the appropriate actions.

[Larry Mangum]

Only the Wing Commander can suspend a members ES credentials. However a unit CC can deny the member permission to participate in Wing and Unit activities.  Yes, I know CAPR 60-3, paragraph 2-2.e.2 states "If the unit, wing, region, or National Commander has documented reason to believe that the member is not properly qualified, the specialty(s) in question will be suspended in Ops Quals until resolved and that member will not be allowed to participate in operational mission activities in the questioned specialty until qualifications have been verified."however, there is a difference between disrespect and perhaps insubordination and not being qualified in a specialty.

Colonel, I'm confused. If CAPR 60-3 clearly states (as you pointed out on your post) that any commander can suspend a qualification, how do you conclude that only the wing commander can suspend qualifications? The only requirement in the regulation is that the next higher echelon be notified. Ops Quals certainly allows squadron and group commanders to suspend a qualification. Could it be a local policy in your wing?

The Wing Commander or his designee is actually the final approval authority for every rating except IC-1 (Region Commander), before a rating is issued.  Suspending a rating is generally seen as an adverse action and Wing Commander as a rule do not like to delegate that authority. Could a Wing Commander delegate the authority, perhaps, but in my experience unlikely.

[JeffDG]

Only the Wing Commander can suspend a members ES credentials. However a unit CC can deny the member permission to participate in Wing and Unit activities.  Yes, I know CAPR 60-3, paragraph 2-2.e.2 states "If the unit, wing, region, or National Commander has documented reason to believe that the member is not properly qualified, the specialty(s) in question will be suspended in Ops Quals until resolved and that member will not be allowed to participate in operational mission activities in the questioned specialty until qualifications have been verified."however, there is a difference between disrespect and perhaps insubordination and not being qualified in a specialty.

Colonel, I'm confused. If CAPR 60-3 clearly states (as you pointed out on your post) that any commander can suspend a qualification, how do you conclude that only the wing commander can suspend qualifications? The only requirement in the regulation is that the next higher echelon be notified. Ops Quals certainly allows squadron and group commanders to suspend a qualification. Could it be a local policy in your wing?

The Wing Commander or his designee is actually the final approval authority for every rating except IC-1 (Region Commander), before a rating is issued.  Suspending a rating is generally seen as an adverse action and Wing Commander as a rule do not like to delegate that authority. Could a Wing Commander delegate the authority, perhaps, but in my experience unlikely.

The Wing Commander doesn't need to delegate authority, that authority is granted to unit commanders in CAPR 60-3 2-2(e)(2).

[arajca]

Removal of qualification should not equate to lack of discipline. A qualification is a response to the completion of training, not responsibility and authority. Don't confuse that with grade.

I think you're referring to the distinctions between operational and staff functions, and specialty qualification and mission assignment. There's a degree of authority and responsibility associated to a qualification when exercising those functions in a mission. An IC certainly has authority within the scope of a mission in which he or she is assigned and performing those functions. The same goes for other specialties, such as a GTL during a ground sortie. If the lack of discipline is observed within the scope of a mission, suspension of qualification may be in order. I was involved once in a suspension of a FLS qualification because of multiple documented safety violations in the flight line.

The issue described by the OP, however, doesn't seem to meet that criteria. At least not with the information provided.

There is a line in the OP's post that meets the criteria -

I have a case of insubordination from a senior member. He criticizes the unit eso, wont follow ES regs and will take over the training of the unit eso. Highly disrespectful and insubordinate. Can someone like that have their specialty suspended until they work with the eso on becoming respectful and subordinate. Because it is outrageous how badly the senior member treats the unit ESO.

[ZigZag911]

Since this is a disciplinary issue rather than poor performance of tasks, it seems like an instance in which a commander/deputy needs to look into the situation and hold a counseling session, at least.

If a member is being disrespectful or insubordinate, more needs to be done to address the matter than simply suspending or removing ES quals (which is, as noted above, somewhat complicated anyway).

[TheSkyHornet]

Since this is a disciplinary issue rather than poor performance of tasks, it seems like an instance in which a commander/deputy needs to look into the situation and hold a counseling session, at least.

If a member is being disrespectful or insubordinate, more needs to be done to address the matter than simply suspending or removing ES quals (which is, as noted above, somewhat complicated anyway).

Agree, and as I said before, I don't feel that suspending or removing a qualification is the appropriate action for misbehavior. To me, the qualification indicates your ability to perform a task, not your willingness. That's a consequence of discipline, not qualification. Even if the regs allow suspension of qualification due to disciplinary measures, I don't feel it's an appropriate course of action, even if lawful.

I guess "suspension of qualification" could be regarded as a means to prevent someone from acting, and it's an eServices failsafe to prevent that person from going to another unit and trying to tag along because their 101 card may show to have a missing qualification. I really haven't come across this scenario yet with anyone.

[lordmonar]

"Their ability to perform" also includes things like "plays well with others" and "will follow directions" so yes and no.  I have seen this and there is no mechanism other the suspension to keep an individual from signing into a mission. 

[FW]

There are quite a few ways to prohibit a member from playing with others, if such is the problem.  Suspending a qualification is one of them, however as Larry says, it may be considered an adverse membership action, which can be appealed. 
There were supposed to be guidelines written up on this very subject.  I guess it never happened...

[lordmonar]

All things are appeal-able......