Senior members & Meetings

[Strikermd140]

Ok, so this may have been covered, but after a search I found nothing related.  I know in the regs it says seniors are not required to come to meetings. We have a lot of seniors on our roster who never show up and are called active members. Active members per the reg are ones who show up regularly, and participate and help out, safety current, etc. Since i have transferred to this squadron, and its been a year now, i have not seen 90% of these "Active Seniors."  An email was sent to to ALL members concerning there activeness and pretty much only one of those members responded and had an issue with it.  No place in the regulations does it say that these non active "active" members need to stay safety current, so does that mean a squadron commander can request that all his/her members are safety current. At least i did not find anything pertaining to that. The other issue is should we place these non active "active" members in the admin hold?  I personally don't like this roster of members who never show up or help, even when activities are out side there front door. I would rather have quality then quantity for seniors. The seniors we have that do show up are awesome and participate in almost every activity. I know for Cadets, its miss 3 unexcused meetings and its voluntary grounds to be removed from CAP, or a few others i wont get into. Why don't seniors have this... Can a squadron/group/wing have a supplement on this? Something like seniors need to participate at least once a month, and/or maintain safety currency or related duties and one activity per quarter.  This IMO would be great, limited but functional membership.  Every organization I've seen, heard or, or been in, has had some clause to membership like this. Any ideas?

[lordmonar]

Ok, so this may have been covered, but after a search I found nothing related.  I know in the regs it says seniors are not required to come to meetings.

Cite please...which reg and what paragraph?

We have a lot of seniors on our roster who never show up and are called active members. Active members per the reg are ones who show up regularly, and participate and help out, safety current, etc.

Again Cite please.

Since i have transferred to this squadron, and its been a year now, i have not seen 90% of these "Active Seniors."  An email was sent to to ALL members concerning there activeness and pretty much only one of those members responded and had an issue with it.  No place in the regulations does it say that these non active "active" members need to stay safety current, so does that mean a squadron commander can request that all his/her members are safety current.

If they want to participate in CAP activities they must be safety current. PER CAPR 62-1 para 4.

At least i did not find anything pertaining to that. The other issue is should we place these non active "active" members in the admin hold?

Define Admin hold?   If you mean no promotions, no decorations, no training, no transfers.....then yes...you can't get any of those things unless you are participating....and you can't participate if you are not safety current.

I personally don't like this roster of members who never show up or help, even when activities are out side there front door. I would rather have quality then quantity for seniors. The seniors we have that do show up are awesome and participate in almost every activity.

Question.....what is the cost of keeping them on the roster vs taking them off the roster?   What are the benefits of removing them from the roster vs keeping them on the roster?

I know for Cadets, its miss 3 unexcused meetings and its voluntary grounds to be removed from CAP, or a few others i wont get into. Why don't seniors have this... Can a squadron/group/wing have a supplement on this? Something like seniors need to participate at least once a month, and/or maintain safety currency or related duties and one activity per quarter.  This IMO would be great, limited but functional membership.  Every organization I've seen, heard or, or been in, has had some clause to membership like this. Any ideas?

I go back to cost and benefits.   Sure we can kick out a cadet per the regulations after just 3 unexcused absences.....but why bother?   What benifit does it bring to the unit?  to CAP?  To the cadet?   What does it cost to kick them out?

Same story with the senior member.   If he has dropped of the radar.......so what?   Let him go.   If he suddenly shows up....point him towards the safety currency training and get him up to speed and move on.   If he never shows up again....eventually his membership expires, you move his records to the inactive file and five years later you destroy.

2b'ing someone is a whole lot more work.   With a whole lot more possible negative consequences.

I just don't see it being worth the cost.

YMMV.

[vorteks]

Ok, so this may have been covered,

Here's 20 pages worth of coverage on that topic from not so long ago:

  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19637.0

Enjoy! 

[PHall]

Strikermd140, per your signature you're the Deputy Commander for Cadets.
Senior members are under the Deputy Commander for Seniors and ultimately the Squadron Commander.
To put it bluntly sir, stay in your lane...
If the Deputy for Seniors and the Squadron Commander don't have any problems with this then you shouldn't have any problems with it either.

[CAPs1]

Strikermd140:

Is your concern because the lack of participation affects the cadet program?
No leadership, activity officers etc?

[Strikermd140]

CAPR 39-2, 3-2. Requirements for Membership. All applicants for senior membership in CAP must be accepted by the unit and higher headquarters and must meet the following criteria:
a. General. Possess the desire, willingness, and capability to promote the objectives and purposes of CAP and must adhere to the Oath of Membership on the CAPF 12.
also
a. Active Member. A member who regularly attends meetings, performs a specific duty
assignment, meets training requirements and participates in the activities of his or her unit. An active
member may wear the CAP uniform and compete for grade advancement (see CAPR 35-1,
Assignment and Duty Status).
b. Reserve/Patron Member. A reserve/patron member is a financial supporter who
maintains current membership through payment of annual membership dues and participates in a
limited capacity as outlined below. Such members may be assigned to a local unit or at the National
level.

These seniors dont show up so how can they promote any of CAPs objectives or purpose? Or even the desire to move up in grade? So moving them to a reserve status IMO woudl help numbers.. they sort of suck us down the tubes with safety compliance... for example 20 seniors and only 6 are safety current looks bad. but moveing those inactive ones helps the numbers look better.. ie: 10 seniors and 8 safety current... Again, just my thoughts, plus they can alway move back to active status when they have  the time.

Yes, i am the DCC, and i wasnt wasnt crossing lanes, was just a general question as to what to do or if anyone had a similar issue.  Our current DCS as well as myself and commander have had chats about the issues and retention and why seniors and cadets are not showing  interest.  We had a small spike in membership in the past 2 months and hopefully its growing and we have patched the hole of member leakage.

As for the meeting requirments,  CAPR 52-16 4-4. Attendance and Retention.
a. Expectations of Cadets. Cadets are required to participate actively in their local unit if they are to progress in the Cadet Program. Excessive, unexcused absences may be cause for termination from CAP (see below CAPR 35-3, Membership Termination). Any school-related activity is considered an excused absence. Cadets are responsible for informing their leaders in advance if they expect to be absent. School-related absences do not excuse cadets from promotion requirements.
I certainly dont terminate cadets for missing 3 meetings, usually i give it 2 months and after the 1st month try to make contact with them via the cadet staff and we find out its school, sports or even vacation... we have also had some that just never reply to calls or emails, or just show up and say i quit and hand in uniforms... Overall the cadet usually never renews..
On the senior side Section B of the above reg goes into that stuff...  I really dont want anyone to get 2Bd... just move them to an inactive status.. or admin hold.. its a 000 squadron. i guess this is term is used sparsely, but my previous squadron used it often to refer to those previously active members.  Section B, para 4 #8 ( Substandard performance of duty over an extended period of time.  is the main one i look at ice most have not done anything in over a year.

So ill take a peek at the prior posts, converse again with staff and see where we can go with this. I dont want any of seniors 2Bd or to resign, just help.. we are getting bigger and the more help we get then better we can be.. some of us active seniors do multiple jobs  to help each other out. So again, back to the thoughts... ideas

by the way, thank you for the replies, its helpful

[lordmonar]

CAPR 39-2, 3-2. Requirements for Membership. All applicants for senior membership in CAP must be accepted by the unit and higher headquarters and must meet the following criteria:
a. General. Possess the desire, willingness, and capability to promote the objectives and purposes of CAP and must adhere to the Oath of Membership on the CAPF 12.
also
a. Active Member. A member who regularly attends meetings, performs a specific duty
assignment, meets training requirements and participates in the activities of his or her unit. An active
member may wear the CAP uniform and compete for grade advancement (see CAPR 35-1,
Assignment and Duty Status).
b. Reserve/Patron Member. A reserve/patron member is a financial supporter who
maintains current membership through payment of annual membership dues and participates in a
limited capacity as outlined below. Such members may be assigned to a local unit or at the National
level.

These seniors dont show up so how can they promote any of CAPs objectives or purpose? Or even the desire to move up in grade? So moving them to a reserve status IMO woudl help numbers..

What numbers would that be?
If you had 100 members on your roster....and moved 60 of them to patron status....you would still have 100 members on your roster.

they sort of suck us down the tubes with safety compliance... for example 20 seniors and only 6 are safety current looks bad.

SAFETY COMPLIANCE is not......I SAY AGAIN.....IS NOT a measurement of unit performance.   This was categorically stated at the last CSAG.  Wings were told to stop complaining about "your unit is only 20% complaint".  They were told not to move non compliant member to the 000 squadron or forcing them to patron status.

but moveing those inactive ones helps the numbers look better.. ie: 10 seniors and 8 safety current... Again, just my thoughts, plus they can alway move back to active status when they have  the time.

No....it would not help anyone "look" better.  Moving them to patron status or to the 000 squadron just makes it that much harder to get them up to speed if/when they do come back.

As for the meeting requirments,  CAPR 52-16 4-4. Attendance and Retention.
a. Expectations of Cadets. Cadets are required to participate actively in their local unit if they are to progress in the Cadet Program. Excessive, unexcused absences may be cause for termination from CAP (see below CAPR 35-3, Membership Termination). Any school-related activity is considered an excused absence. Cadets are responsible for informing their leaders in advance if they expect to be absent. School-related absences do not excuse cadets from promotion requirements.
I certainly dont terminate cadets for missing 3 meetings, usually i give it 2 months and after the 1st month try to make contact with them via the cadet staff and we find out its school, sports or even vacation... we have also had some that just never reply to calls or emails, or just show up and say i quit and hand in uniforms... Overall the cadet usually never renews..
On the senior side Section B of the above reg goes into that stuff...  I really dont want anyone to get 2Bd... just move them to an inactive status.. or admin hold.. its a 000 squadron. i guess this is term is used sparsely, but my previous squadron used it often to refer to those previously active members.  Section B, para 4 #8 ( Substandard performance of duty over an extended period of time.  is the main one i look at ice most have not done anything in over a year.

So ill take a peek at the prior posts, converse again with staff and see where we can go with this. I dont want any of seniors 2Bd or to resign, just help.. we are getting bigger and the more help we get then better we can be.. some of us active seniors do multiple jobs  to help each other out. So again, back to the thoughts... ideas

by the way, thank you for the replies, its helpful

If you really want to know why the dropped of the face of the earth......call them.  Ask them.   Most of them will tell you that they just weren't interested in it any more.

They joined for X......and never got to do X.   They thought it was going to more like Full Metal Jacket.   They just sat around every meeting not doing anything.   Etc.    If you want them to be active....they have to know/feel that what they do matters, that they matter and that they are having fun/getting something worth while from CAP.

No easy answers there......lots of hard work to follow up and think about how what they wanted and what you provided them did not match up.

Sometimes there are things you can change...and sometime not.

[THRAWN]

If you want them to be active....they have to know/feel that what they do matters, that they matter and that they are having fun/getting something worth while from CAP.

No easy answers there......lots of hard work to follow up and think about how what they wanted and what you provided them did not match up.

Sometimes there are things you can change...and sometime not.

This is probably the best message that I've ever seen on this site. It gets to the very core of why people join CAP and the organization's responsibility to those people.

[Storm Chaser]

Personally, if members under my command become inactive for an extended period of time, I would reach out to see if there's anything I can do to get them involved again. If they're unable or unwilling to become active, I would have no issues converting their membership to Patron/Reserve status.

[kwe1009]

What is the point of converting them to patron?  The only benefit I saw to this was when safety currency was a big deal.  Now that it is not used as a measurement for inspections or unit competency, just leave them on the books.  If they come back at some point then great.  If you convert them to patron and they come back you will have to go through the process of converting them back to regular membership so way even go down that road?

I have a member in my squadron who has not shown up to a meeting in over 3 years and he is only safety current once per year when he logs into eServices to renew his membership.  I really have no idea why he stays a member but he does and and CAP gets the his money.  When I became squadron commander a few months ago one of the first things I did was try to transfer him to 000 but that was the same time this new guidance came down about safety currency so I was told that there was no need to do that anymore.

[JeffDG]

XX-000 is mentioned in precisely one regulation:  CAPR 20-3, Paragraph 8, with respect to deactivation of units.  It is purely intended as a temporary holding place, not as a retirement home for inactive members. 

Then I've seen commanders transfer people to 000 for disciplinary reasons.  Rather than deal through appropriate disciplinary channels like suspension or termination, they just transfer the problem to 000, which significantly impacts the transferred member's ability to participate in activities, and completely obviates  any due process protections they have in the proper disciplinary channels.

[Storm Chaser]

What is the point of converting them to patron?

What is the point not to?

The only benefit I saw to this was when safety currency was a big deal.  Now that it is not used as a measurement for inspections or unit competency, just leave them on the books.  If they come back at some point then great.  If you convert them to patron and they come back you will have to go through the process of converting them back to regular membership so way even go down that road?

I have a member in my squadron who has not shown up to a meeting in over 3 years and he is only safety current once per year when he logs into eServices to renew his membership.  I really have no idea why he stays a member but he does and and CAP gets the his money.  When I became squadron commander a few months ago one of the first things I did was try to transfer him to 000 but that was the same time this new guidance came down about safety currency so I was told that there was no need to do that anymore.

Some awards (Red Service Ribbon), specialty tracks (ES, Recruiting, Command, etc.), appointments (Skills Evaluator), promotions, etc. require a member to have a certain amount of time in service, time in grade, time in qualification or time in duty assignment to qualify for these. Why should a member get credit for this time while being inactive during an extended period of time?

The paperwork to transfer someone from Active to Reserve/Patron status and back to Active takes very little time and effort. So why shouldn't a commander exercise that prerogative after giving a member plenty of opportunities to become involved or contribute in one way or another?

[lordmonar]

What is the point of converting them to patron?

What is the point not to?

Less work.   Does not require any action to reinstate the member if he/she decides to become active again.

Some awards (Red Service Ribbon), specialty tracks (ES, Recruiting, Command, etc.), appointments (Skills Evaluator), promotions, etc. require a member to have a certain amount of time in service, time in grade, time in qualification or time in duty assignment to qualify for these. Why should a member get credit for this time while being inactive during an extended period of time?

The paperwork to transfer someone from Active to Reserve/Patron status and back to Active takes very little time and effort. So why shouldn't a commander exercise that prerogative after giving a member plenty of opportunities to become involved or contribute in one way or another?

but why should he?

Again....it is the cost/benefit model from the stand point of the unit.

"takes very little time" is a more time then "do nothing".
At the end of the day....the end state is just the same.   You have the same number of people on your roster.  You have the same amount of paperwork (records) you have to maintain. 

While you are free to manage your squadron as you see fit.    I just don't see need to get all bent out of shape over the inactive members.

And for the "they are accumulating time"......all those awards and decorations require commander sign of.    Ergo just because you got five years does not mean you automatically get a Red Service Ribbon.

[vorteks]

What is the point of converting them to patron?

I really have no idea why he stays a member but he does and and CAP gets the his money.

I think you answered your own question. If CAP is getting nothing more than his money, isn't that what Patron membership is for?

[Al Sayre]

Also remember that NHQ has now come out and said no unit or unit commander should be penalized for having non-safety-current members on the roster.  Switching people to patron or moving them to 000 has a tendency to "annoy" them and has caused (many? some?) them to leave the program for good, which doesn't benefit anyone.

[SarDragon]

Ergo just because you got five years does not mean you automatically get a Red Service Ribbon.

Why not? For ten years, due to economics and logistics, I was "pay, no play". NHQ got my thirty bucks every year, and I stayed on the rolls. If I can show enough interest to maintain my membership, then I should retain credit for it.

[Storm Chaser]

What is the point of converting them to patron?

What is the point not to?

Less work.   Does not require any action to reinstate the member if he/she decides to become active again.

Completing a CAPF 2A does not take that much time or effort. Besides, that's up to the commander to decide.

Some awards (Red Service Ribbon), specialty tracks (ES, Recruiting, Command, etc.), appointments (Skills Evaluator), promotions, etc. require a member to have a certain amount of time in service, time in grade, time in qualification or time in duty assignment to qualify for these. Why should a member get credit for this time while being inactive during an extended period of time?

The paperwork to transfer someone from Active to Reserve/Patron status and back to Active takes very little time and effort. So why shouldn't a commander exercise that prerogative after giving a member plenty of opportunities to become involved or contribute in one way or another?

but why should he?

Again....it is the cost/benefit model from the stand point of the unit.

"takes very little time" is a more time then "do nothing".
At the end of the day....the end state is just the same.   You have the same number of people on your roster.  You have the same amount of paperwork (records) you have to maintain.

While you are free to manage your squadron as you see fit.    I just don't see need to get all bent out of shape over the inactive members.

I'm not getting "bent out of shape", but merely expressed my opinion and what I would do. While I disagree with your "do nothing" approach, you're free to exercise that prerogative should you decide to trade your stripes for oak leaves and assume command of a unit again.

And for the "they are accumulating time"......all those awards and decorations require commander sign of.    Ergo just because you got five years does not mean you automatically get a Red Service Ribbon.

Which only works if a member stays in the same unit or requests those awards during the tenure of the same commander. Unfortunately, eServices records outlives commanders and unit transfers. You've heard the saying "if it's not documented it doesn't exist", right? Well, if it's documented it does exist even if it's not true.

[lordmonar]

Ergo just because you got five years does not mean you automatically get a Red Service Ribbon.

Why not? For ten years, due to economics and logistics, I was "pay, no play". NHQ got my thirty bucks every year, and I stayed on the rolls. If I can show enough interest to maintain my membership, then I should retain credit for it.

Note I said AUTOMATICALLY.    I don't have a problem with a dues payer getting his Red Service.  Just said that if a commander wanted to "punish" his in active members.....that's where he can do it.

SM Ghost wants to get promoted 1st Lt....."Sorry Joe.....you have been a no show for the last year....I'm gonna have to see some participation from you before I sign off on this".   Same story with the Red Service.

Again....way less the work then patronising someone or 000....

[lordmonar]

Storm chaser,

You are right that it is up to the commander.   And I have implicitly said that several times over the 3-4 threads that we have had on this subject.

I like the dig about my not being an officer anymore.   Nice.  Don't know what it has to do with my main point of there is very little value added to "managing" inactive members.....and there ARE costs both direct and indirect.

[Storm Chaser]

Storm chaser,

You are right that it is up to the commander.   And I have simplicity said that several times over the 3-4 threads that we have had on this subject.

I like the dig about my not being an officer anymore.   Nice.  Don't know what it has to do with my main point of there is very little value added to "managing" inactive members.....and there ARE costs both direct and indirect.

I have no problem with you being an NCO and if you read some of my recent posts regarding the subject, you'll see I've actually been supportive of the recent NCO initiative, although I think the implementation could've been better. That said, you can't express an opinion and pass it as fact. You may feel strongly about this issue, but it's not up to you, but up to the commanders to decide how to deal (or not) with inactive members. Yours is certainly one possible approach, but not the only one.

[Storm Chaser]

Ergo just because you got five years does not mean you automatically get a Red Service Ribbon.

Why not? For ten years, due to economics and logistics, I was "pay, no play". NHQ got my thirty bucks every year, and I stayed on the rolls. If I can show enough interest to maintain my membership, then I should retain credit for it.

The Red Service ribbon, clasps and longevity device are awarded to members in good standing for years of service. Service and membership are not the same thing.

[lordmonar]

Storm chaser,

You are right that it is up to the commander.   And I have implicitly said that several times over the 3-4 threads that we have had on this subject.

I like the dig about my not being an officer anymore.   Nice.  Don't know what it has to do with my main point of there is very little value added to "managing" inactive members.....and there ARE costs both direct and indirect.

I have no problem with you being an NCO and if you read some of my recent posts regarding the subject, you'll see I've actually been supportive of the recent NCO initiative, although I think the implementation could've been better. That said, you can't express an opinion and pass it as fact. You may feel strongly about this issue, but it's not up to you, but up to the commanders to decide how to deal (or not) with inactive members. Yours is certainly one possible approach, but not the only one.

Yep.

[lordmonar]

Ergo just because you got five years does not mean you automatically get a Red Service Ribbon.

Why not? For ten years, due to economics and logistics, I was "pay, no play". NHQ got my thirty bucks every year, and I stayed on the rolls. If I can show enough interest to maintain my membership, then I should retain credit for it.

The Red Service ribbon, clasps and longevity device are awarded to members in good standing for years of service. Service and membership are not the same thing.

I agree.....but what is that difference IAW the regs?

[Storm Chaser]

Ergo just because you got five years does not mean you automatically get a Red Service Ribbon.

Why not? For ten years, due to economics and logistics, I was "pay, no play". NHQ got my thirty bucks every year, and I stayed on the rolls. If I can show enough interest to maintain my membership, then I should retain credit for it.

The Red Service ribbon, clasps and longevity device are awarded to members in good standing for years of service. Service and membership are not the same thing.

I agree.....but what is that difference IAW the regs?

Unfortunately, the regs don't really define this, which leaves it up to each commander to make that determination.

[lordmonar]

Ergo just because you got five years does not mean you automatically get a Red Service Ribbon.

Why not? For ten years, due to economics and logistics, I was "pay, no play". NHQ got my thirty bucks every year, and I stayed on the rolls. If I can show enough interest to maintain my membership, then I should retain credit for it.

The Red Service ribbon, clasps and longevity device are awarded to members in good standing for years of service. Service and membership are not the same thing.

I agree.....but what is that difference IAW the regs?

Unfortunately, the regs don't really define this, which leaves it up to each commander to make that determination.

Again....agree.