Faith and Science - CAP Chaplain Video

[Майор Хаткевич]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yu2G-rPhuY


Personally, not sure. Seems to me that the video strays from the point of what Chaplains should be doing, especially when we start talking about teaching cadets.


Honestly not sure how I feel about this. Obviously has a Christian perspective, which we shouldn't be pushing as an organization (or any specific faith for that matter).

[LSThiker]

Not appropriate for CAP.  The discussion of Science and Faith needs to be left outside of CAP Chaplain Corps and CAP.  Would the CAP Chaplain Corps have a problem if I were to discussion Atheism and Science in CAP?

Time to get a well-crafted letter going.

Also, just because one has a "master rating in AE" does not make one a scientist as he claims.  Sorry, any Joe Blow can get a master rating in AE.

[a2capt]

Thats okay, the blurry look of a rip from a 1970s vintage top loader VHS machine, and the droll introduction ran me off before much was even said.

[Eclipse]

As soon as the Bible was quoted, they were off the reservation.

This is a Christian lecture disguised as a secular discussion.

Not appropriate for CAP.

In a CAP, non-secular context, there is no debate regarding "faith vs. science".  There is only science.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Not appropriate for CAP.  The discussion of Science and Faith needs to be left outside of CAP Chaplain Corps and CAP.  Would the CAP Chaplain Corps have a problem if I were to discussion Atheism and Science in CAP?

Time to get a well-crafted letter going.

Also, just because one has a "master rating in AE" does not make one a scientist as he claims.  Sorry, any Joe Blow can get a master rating in AE.

First time I've heard the Scientific method described as "If - Then", and first time I've heard Faith compared to the Scientific Method. I've reported the link to a group admin where it was posted. Really wasn't sure if it's "just me", or seriously misses the mark of what CAP should be promoting. Listened to it twice however, and couldn't really agree on anything, even with "an open mind".

Plenty of scientists are religious. This ain't it.

[LSThiker]

Plenty of scientists are religious. This ain't it.

That there are.  How they grapple that is beyond me and is between them and well them.  I do not want to discuss the topic of faith and science as I know I have strong opinions.  That and this is not really the place.  Regardless of what one believes on this topic, CAP is not the place to discuss it.  Teaching aerospace science does not require a topic on faith and science.

[ironputts]

Hi. I am Joe Blow. Anyway, we should be teaching our core values! Religious teaching is not one of them.

[dwb]

How does this jive with our goal of promoting STEM education?

[a2capt]

No STEM cell development ..

[LSThiker]

How does this jive with our goal of promoting STEM education?

Does not change anything.  This topic is not appropriate for any CAP discussion. 

[AirAux]

And without religion, how can you "Reach up and touch the face of God"?

[Eclipse]

Which one?

[LSThiker]

And without religion, how can you "Reach up and touch the face of God"?

"Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth"

High Flight by John Gillespie Magee, Jr

[Eclipse]

OK, for the benefit of the doubt I went back and watched the whole thing, the connections made are
tenuous at best and based completely on a single doctrinal view, making it again inappropriate for CAP,
especially in what appears to be an official media channel.

To address the argument on its merits alone...

Faith is generally defined as "a belief without proof", while science is the systematic organization of knowledge with
testable explanations and predictions.  Science generally has no "opinion" as to the "why" something "is" (beyond cause and effect),
it simply catalogs what "is".  Further "extrapolation" is not "faith", it's extension of testable knowledge beyond the
range that is feasible (or possible) for testing.  Extrapolating the existence of a planet based on Doppler Spectroscopy is not the same
as accepting a metaphysical religious doctrine.

I also don't understand why this was done as a recorded Google Hangout instead of a direct video - the low bit rate and
drop outs are very distracting, making it even harder to figure out the message.

(Also, why is this in "Cadet Programs"?)

[SkyChaplain]

Hi everyone,

I am Ch Tim Miner, the person responsible for the video you are discussing. Let's chat.

It is important to note that this video was created to speak to seniors and, most importantly, to the chaplains in CAP. Ch Hughes wants all of us to be active in all three CAP missions of the organization. I've got quite a few chaplains who are afraid of science. That isn't good since the AE mission is directed to the seniors and the cadets. Ch Hughes agreed that he should reassure his chaplains that they can participate in AE without compromising faith. That was the point of this video.

The cadet-directed video that you should pay attention to is the weather career videos we are producing on the same YouTube channel. That is the game-changer technology that NHQ should review. Perhaps you would like to help me with the future career videos?

So what questions can I answer for you? I am looking for a chaplain from the American Humanist Association to do a science-faith video from their perspective. All faiths will have their chance.

Thank you for the chance to serve together in the spirit of volunteer service!

Regards,
SkyChaplain Tim

[Eclipse]

I am looking for a chaplain from the American Humanist Association to do a science-faith video from their perspective. All faiths will have their chance.

Why? Saying "all faiths will have their chance" presupposes all faith >need< their "chance".
You're literally putting people in the postion of defending their religious beliefs in a public forum
with a CAP logo on it.

If you have Chaplains "afraid of science", that is an issue they need to work out (or likely not work out) for themselves.
CAP should not be in the business of trying to "fix" Chaplains with a religious doctrine that is reluctant towards science,
any more then one religion should try to "fix" another through evangelism.

The flip side is why the Chaplain corps feels it is necessary to involve themselves in AE's lane with the weather videos.
At most they should bring those to AE, and if AE thinks they have value, let them post them.

[SkyChaplain]

Hi again,

Thanks for the questions...

First, remember that CAP Chaplains are the only functional area that has equal Title 10 status to the AF so this discussion is directed at all the military chaplains and the religious members of CAP.  Two years ago I began townhall meetings at the annual conferences of the American Meteorological Society to discuss 'Spirituality and the Atmospheric Sciences.' They are packed every year with scientists exploring their personal relationship of their science and their faith. Great discussions take place and growth occurs. We are just offering the same opportunities here in CAP. It is all voluntary.

That said, the reason for the weather career videos is that I carry the charter of Jeff Montgomery at NHQ and the Cadet Team at NHQ to do them. I will be rewriting the whole weather curriculum for CAP. Career exploration is only one aspect of the larger Multi-media effort. Besides being a chaplain I am the scientist and for professor of weather/climatology at USAFA and the senior weather officer in the USAF Reserves. Chaplains can be AE officers too. Getting folks to see how the worldviews of faith and science are related uniquely for every individual is part of my personal chaplaincy calling and a viable one that has the endorsement of the senior chaplains in CAP and AF. It is all voluntary.
I hope you see that these programs provide opportunity and not any evangelism from any perspective. What else can I answer for you?

[Eclipse]

Hi again,

Thanks for the questions...

First, remember that CAP Chaplains are the only functional area that has equal Title 10 status to the AF so this discussion is directed at all the military chaplains and the religious members of CAP.

I don't know, frankly, how anyone could forget that, since it is mentioned in every sentence involving CAP Chaplains.

The problem there, and this is from personal experience multiple times, is that many CAP Chaplains believe that what is essentially a "nice to have" ability to fill
in when the military lacks personnel, is the primary role of the Chaplain Corps, and that CAP Chaplains are essentially "mini-military chaplains".  My personal
experience includes dealing with members whose F34s list many hours of military service and zero CAP activities - they need(ed) the mantle of
CAP as their ticket to military activities, but were not interested in serving CAP.

That is not, in my view, the role of CAP's Chaplain corps, nor would educating anyone outside CAP, especially military Chaplains,
who actually specifically trained as military Chaplains (including the necessity to serve all faiths as needed), unlike many (most?) CAP Chaplains who are simply members of clergy with the requisite
university training, ordination, and ecclesiastical endorsement (present company excepted, presumably) but no understanding of the military situation.

Two years ago I began townhall meetings at the annual conferences of the American Meteorological Society to discuss 'Spirituality and the Atmospheric Sciences.' They are packed every year with scientists exploring their personal relationship of their science and their faith. Great discussions take place and growth occurs. We are just offering the same opportunities here in CAP. It is all voluntary.

That said, the reason for the weather career videos is that I carry the charter of Jeff Montgomery at NHQ and the Cadet Team at NHQ to do them. I will be rewriting the whole weather curriculum for CAP. Career exploration is only one aspect of the larger Multi-media effort. Besides being a chaplain I am the scientist and for professor of weather/climatology at USAFA and the senior weather officer in the USAF Reserves. Chaplains can be AE officers too. Getting folks to see how the worldviews of faith and science are related uniquely for every individual is part of my personal chaplaincy calling and a viable one that has the endorsement of the senior chaplains in CAP and AF. It is all voluntary.
I hope you see that these programs provide opportunity and not any evangelism from any perspective. What else can I answer for you?

Your work on CAP weather careers should be completely separate from any endorsement or involvement from the Chaplain side of the house
for two reasons, first, they are separate directorates (your personal unique abilities notwithstanding), and second, the connection to the
Chaplain Corps, unfortunately, will turn off many of the very cadets you are trying to reach.

Cadets definitely will be interested in hearing from a professor at the USAFA (who also happens to be a Chaplain), and less so from
a Chaplain (who also happens to be a professor at the USAFA).

And I'm sorry, but CAP is not a 24x7x365 holistic service which requires full attention and in turn provides full life services like the military.
If members want to "explore faith", that is their prerogative, but it should not be done on CAP time, or in CAP uniform, which is supposed to
be a secular organization with no religious affiliation.

I also do not think it is possible for someone who has accepted a religious doctrine with the enthusiasm and belief of ordained clergy to
"explore faith" beyond politely listening to opposing views and then trying to convince the other person(s) where they are missing the point.
Anything which must be accepted on faith, isn't going to change, and characterizing sceintific facts as being potentially guided by an omnipotent hand, >is< evangelizing.

In this regard I don't mean to say you are being disingenuous or not well-intentioned, but you have accepted a viewpoint and sets of beliefs
that intertwine within your entire life.  To "explore faith" with anyone not of the same inclination, would be similar to "exploring science"
with someone who category denies the facts or principles presented.

[ZigZag911]

Hi everyone,

I am Ch Tim Miner, the person responsible for the video you are discussing. Let's chat.

It is important to note that this video was created to speak to seniors and, most importantly, to the chaplains in CAP.

May I suggest, Chaplain, that it might be a good idea to add that to the introduction to the video?  Perhaps also a written note stating this fact, and advising CAP commanders & chaplains that this is not intended for use as a character development presentation to cadets?

[LSThiker]

It is important to note that this video was created to speak to seniors and, most importantly, to the chaplains in CAP. Ch Hughes wants all of us to be active in all three CAP missions of the organization.

This is not addressed any where in the video or in the "About" section on Youtube.  As it stands now, it is a conversation about how "Christianity" (one particular sect of Christianity for that matter) addresses "faith and science".  This, unintentionally I hope, creates an impression that CAP is in the business of proselytizing religious doctrine, which we know CAP is not.  If this video is meant as you stated, then it is better behind a restricted access and not on a public video site.  If Ch Hughes feel inclined to still talk about "science and faith", then the CAP "stamp" should be removed to prevent false impressions.     

I've got quite a few chaplains who are afraid of science. That isn't good since the AE mission is directed to the seniors and the cadets. Ch Hughes agreed that he should reassure his chaplains that they can participate in AE without compromising faith. That was the point of this video.

If the chaplains are "afraid of science", then this is something they need to work out with their religious organization.  CAP is not in the business of "fixing others religious beliefs".  If the CAP Chaplain Corps needs to "reassure [their] chaplains that they can participate in AE without compromising their faith", then the appropriate manner would be a simple email that has limited distribution.  Why does the Chaplain Corps need to reassure other chaplains that they can participate in AE?  If the chaplain does not feel comfortable, then perhaps participating in another PD specialty such as logistics or administration or ES would be more appropriate.  Why AE specifically? 

The cadet-directed video that you should pay attention to is the weather career videos we are producing on the same YouTube channel. That is the game-changer technology that NHQ should review. Perhaps you would like to help me with the future career videos?

How are future career videos relevant to the CAP Chaplain Corps?  It would be far more appropriate for this to be worked through Cadet Programs, AE, or other relevant PD specialties separate from the Chaplain Corps.  I would assume that the Chaplain Corps would not want the CAP Administration Directorate to be releasing videos on becoming a Chaplain?

I will leave it at what Eclipse has already said.

It is all voluntary.

Unfortunately, it is not perceived in that manner.  LTC (ret, US Army) Jen Peeples has talked extensively on the very "it is all voluntary" subject for Soldiers in formation.   While not exactly the same, cadets do not have the great privilege of it always being "voluntary".  A Ch Col holds a huge amount of weight for a cadet and thus feels the pressure to not say anything.  I received a huge amount of flack when I was a cadet when I questioned our Moral Leadership Officer regarding matters of religion (a subject entirely different).  I was constantly disciplined until I transferred units by the DCC (which was also her husband).  Fortunately, for me, I was willing and ready to hold ground.  A cadet airman may not be inclined as much.  In fact, I had a few cadets thank me for standing my ground because they were afraid to say anything.

All faiths will have their chance.

All faiths?  There are over 41,000 Christian denominations alone.  Will all 41,000 receive their own chance?  If not, then no, not all faiths will have their chance.

Let us examine the video.  Ch Hughes quotes Hebrews 11:1.  However, he uses the NIV Bible which is supported by Evangelicals and Protestants.  This version was created in 1978 and has been continuously updated with the last version in 2011, I believe.  However, a number of Christian denominations do not agree with the NIV.  They still abide by the King James Version, which Hebrews 11:1 states:  "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"   So I would hardly argue that his definition is the accepted Christian definition that he read. 

Ch Huges then states that "Assurance" means "knowledge".  This is hardly the case.  Assurance does not necessarily mean knowledge.  Assurance means "a positive declaration intended to give confidence; promise or pledge; full confidence; freedom from doubt; belief in one's abilities; presumptuous boldness".  Nothing of which is inherit to having knowledge.  One can have all of these without having knowledge.  Or you can have all of these with false knowledge.  Therefore, his claim that assurance means knowledge is weak at best.  He then attests that faith is knowledge.  Again, a weak claim at best.  Knowledge by definition is "acquaintance with facts, truths, or principles", while faith means confidence or trust in a person or thing; belief that is not based on proof".

He makes the jump that faith is similar to the scientific method in that it collects evidence to either prove or disprove.  First and foremost, science does not prove anything.  It only disproves or supports an observation.  There is no possibility of proving anything according to the philosophy of science.  Furthermore, faith does not collect evidence to prove or disprove.  Even if we go with the NIV Hebrews 11:1, faith is "the confidence in what we hope for and the assurance about it".  Therefore, by NIV definition, it is not there to disprove anything.  Rather, it means "this is what we want and here is the confidence it is true".  Even when the evidence goes against the faith, the evidence is generally thrown out and the faith is kept.  Case in point, the evidence of evolution is rejected in favor of Genesis (both stories). 

To further his weak claim, he states that faith is similar in that "we hope in god, .... and they are based on promises."  This very statement is the exact opposite of the scientific method.  We do not "hope in our hypothesis" and base our hypothesis in "promises".  Rather, in science we formulate a hypothesis based on evidence and try to disprove it (null hypothesis).   So his final analogy is wrong.  As Ch Hugh claims faith is trying to prove God, which is similar to science.  No, science tries to disprove a hypothesis.  The exact opposite of faith.