Military Leave

[Devil Doc]

I am wondering is Civil Air Patrol considered "Military Leave". I do know of some state or county agencies that accept it. I am having a hard time with my government job accepting it. I have missed alot of trainings or missions because I am at work. I sacrifice leave all the time, just to attend CAP trainings and or missions. I dont want to use my personal leave, and its starting to drain on my leave. If anyone has any advice i would appreaciate it. I have done Google Searches, but still cant find any Policies.

I live in North Carolina

I work for the Federal Government.

[RiverAux]

There are more than a few state governments that have passed laws specifically granting CAP members leave to do emergency work and there are a couple of others that have a sort of generic emergency service leave category that can apply to organizations like the Red Cross as well as CAP. 

However, I've never heard anything about the federal government granting CAP members leave and I very much doubt it is going to be covered under "military" leave by them. 

I happen to think thats something they should do, but I think it would take a change in federal law. 

[Al Sayre]

There's a thread around here somwhere that lists all the states that have laws allowing CAP members leave for ES etc.  Try using the search function.  I haven't got time to do it right now.

[Devil Doc]

Al Syre, I actually found that thread.

I see that there is an "General" Emergency Services leave act for State and County, I was wondering if there was any for Federal Goverment. Red Cross is another problem I have, I respond to emergencies, and trainings. I cannot however do it half the time because of work.

[JeffDG]

Al Syre, I actually found that thread.

I see that there is an "General" Emergency Services leave act for State and County, I was wondering if there was any for Federal Goverment. Red Cross is another problem I have, I respond to emergencies, and trainings. I cannot however do it half the time because of work.

The State laws will not impact the feds...sorry.

It's up to policy for whatever agency you work for.

[Eclipse]

CAP service is definitely not "military leave".

There are various anecdotes floating around about people who have tried to spin it as such, some for the right reasons and
some for their personal gain, generally with negative consequences as the moral of the tale.

As indicated, some (many?) states now have emergency leave acts for volunteer and part-time responders
and many now include CAP, however in most cases those are for actual missions only, with a bar of one sort
of another to be met in order to have protections, but as JeffDG says, as a federal EE, you're probably not covered
by those.

[Devil Doc]

I know, in a way I understand. I like working for the Federal Government, I really do. Sometimes it seems like they dont want you to don anything outside of work, unless u want to take leave.

[Devil Doc]

This is for an "Legit" reason. I have to miss out on Missions and/or Red Cross deployments because of this law. I am wondering why they dont adopt a system like the state does.

[Eclipse]

This is for an "Legit" reason. I have to miss out on Missions and/or Red Cross deployments because of this law. I am wondering why they dont adopt a system like the state does.

Because as a taxpayer, I want you at your job, not volunteering for other agencies on my nickel, no different then anyone else with
a rough or unusual shift who can't go to family / other activities.

I'm not intended to harsh your mellow, or point at you, specifically, that's just the truth of the matter.

A lot of people have to use personal time or vacation to participate in CAP.

[DoubleSecret]

I am wondering is Civil Air Patrol considered "Military Leave". I do know of some state or county agencies that accept it. I am having a hard time with my government job accepting it. I have missed alot of trainings or missions because I am at work. I sacrifice leave all the time, just to attend CAP trainings and or missions. I dont want to use my personal leave, and its starting to drain on my leave. If anyone has any advice i would appreaciate it. I have done Google Searches, but still cant find any Policies.

I live in North Carolina

I work for the Federal Government.

I am not an attorney, and my unsupported opinion doesn't matter.  I offer you some links to arrive at your own conclusion. 

https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/pay-administration/fact-sheets/military-leave/
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/6323

Do you think CAP status falls within the parameters of the provided links?
Do you think one of the personnel experts from your agency is going to give you a more favorable reference?  I encourage you to follow up with them.

[MHC5096]

Take it from someone who has been a employed by multiple agencies in both the DOJ and DHS over the past 15 years...CAP service does not qualify for Military Leave. If you actually address it with someone in your human resources department you will likely find the following guidance:

Military Leave Not Used for All Types of Military Duty

Military leave may not be granted for the following types of military duty:
• Summer training as members of Reserve Officers Training Corps when employees must be carried in a LWOP status;
• Temporary Coast Guard Reserve (see 23 Comptroller General 916);
• Participation in parades by members of the State National Guard;
• Training with a State defense organization or a State military organization which is not part of the National Guard, or any other organization created by the State in the absence of the State National Guard during an emergency (23 Comptroller General 92);
• Civil Air Patrol established as a civilian auxiliary of the United States Air Force (Act of May 1948, 62 Stat. 274);
• Time taken on a workday for traveling to the location where training is scheduled to take place, unless military orders encompass the period of travel time required (see unpublished Comptroller General decision B-138990, April 22, 1959); or
• Active duty as a commissioned officer in the Reserve Corps of the U.S. Public Health Service or the NOAA Corps.

[Brit_in_CAP]

This is for an "Legit" reason. I have to miss out on Missions and/or Red Cross deployments because of this law. I am wondering why they dont adopt a system like the state does.

Because as a taxpayer, I want you at your job, not volunteering for other agencies on my nickel, no different then anyone else with
a rough or unusual shift who can't go to family / other activities.

I'm not intended to harsh your mellow, or point at you, specifically, that's just the truth of the matter.

A lot of people have to use personal time or vacation to participate in CAP.

Like the man said....

As a reflection, my last employer *loved* employees who volunteered, even encouraged it and always claimed some credit for having such wonderful employees......on their own time.  Time off from work for CAP, even missions, or Boy Scouts or similar was out of your vacation time.  The only military leave they honored was Guard or Reserve, and they were (to be fair) very supportive during deployments, even when it was the child or spouse of the employee who was not directly their concern.  The only work time you got was if you supported the causes that the employer supported officially (the local science fair as an example).

Honestly, it's a 'toughie'.  Leaving aside the taxpayer piece, if I'm your employer I'm paying you to show up and work for me.  Me being me I'd be at least receptive to some short-term arrangement....but there aren't many people like me around....

As to Eclipse's last point: the need to use personal time is one of the most limiting factors in most people's involvement, simple as that.

(edited to remove a typo)

[Devil Doc]

The Civil Air Patrol is not a component of the Reserve or National Guard.  It is actually the US Air Force Auxiliary.  This means it doesn't qualify for Military Leave, unless you are activated by the US Air Force, in which case we would need to see orders to know for sure.

For the Civil Air Patrol, the reference is VA Handbook 5011, Hours of Duty and Leave, Part III (Leave), Chapter 2, Section 12 (Authorized Absence), Paragraph c – Civil Defense and Disaster Activities:

     (3)  State Guard or Civil Air Patrol.  Employees called by State or local authorities to emergency duty for protective or rescue work in the State Guard (any State military organization which is not a part of the National Guard) or Civil Air Patrol shall be excused by the facility head without charge to leave for such duty for a period of not more than 3 workdays for any one incident.  Administration Heads, Assistant Secretaries, Other Key Officials, and Deputy Assistant Secretaries may approve such absence in excess of 3 days but not to exceed 5 workdays.  Absence for this purpose beyond 5 days for one incident must be charged to annual leave or to LWOP if annual leave is not available. (See paragraph 9 for instruction on granting military leave to a National Guardsman who is called to duty for law enforcement.)

A lot of what the Civil Air Patrol gets involved in happens on an emergency basis with little if any advanced notice.  The incidents can last for several days, so there could be some chance for coordination of the absence.  There are also training meetings they attend, as well as some community outreach type programs.  The decision would be Ms. Green's (possibly delegated to the Quad) if AA would be authorized, you should coordinate the request through your chain of command here at the medical center.  Please note the limit on the number of days that can be approved locally (3 per incident).  After that, it would be AL or LWOP.

Red Cross DAT time, whether for training or an incident, is not eligible for authorized absences.  Personal leave needs to be used. 



This is what my HR Said, Im not mad, just good to know.

Also they whole taxpayer thing, so when State or County Employees get Civil Air Patrol leave/Emergency Services leave there not on "Tax Payer" dime?

Anywho, its good to know that there is an "Policy" and I now know the Rules. I understand to alot of people use Personal/and or Family time, I was just trying to see if I could use CAP as military/emergency services leave, it never hurts to ask.

[lordmonar]

http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/related-information/

This is the appropriate area you need to look into.

Basically....if you grease it with your department head....it should fly.

[Eclipse]

Also they whole taxpayer thing, so when State or County Employees get Civil Air Patrol leave/Emergency Services leave there not on "Tax Payer" dime?

They are, no question, however in many cases they are responding to more localized emergencies, and the people
of Utah aren't paying for employees of the state of Kentucky for floods in Paducah..

Like most of these cases, the way we get where is are is because of union and other labor agreements and related employment law,
with past abuses being the icing and cherries.

It's also not "clean" to just let someone take off, especially with as lean as many departments are these days - in many case, depending on the job, the cost for the replacement personnel
is higher and unbudgeted (for example, my buddy the cop gets buy-backs regularly to make up for shifts with people on vacation, sick, military leave, etc., the department is
down about 4 officers, but can't hire because of long term deployments and budget shortfalls, do Peter pays Paul).  Some jobs can be "left for a while", but those
are disolving quickly these days for the same reasons.

[NIN]

Some places (and I'm not saying the Federal gov't is one) will actually allow for paid leave or similar for "professional development" that would benefit the organization (ie. Region Staff College, National Staff College). 

So if you say to your employer "Hey, I have this Civil Air Patrol thing, and its all this leadership and management topics that are applicable to my day to day job here, too.." (you probably want to be a tad more persuasive here), some employers are like "OK, give this guy 5 days to go to leadership & management training that doesn't cost us anything else? SURE!"

Not everybody is like that, but I have heard of it.

Now, participating in encampment or SAR training? Maybe not so much.

[Panache]

Some places (and I'm not saying the Federal gov't is one) will actually allow for paid leave or similar for "professional development" that would benefit the organization (ie. Region Staff College, National Staff College). 

This.

My employer actually paid me to attend the ICS-300 & 400 classes, since I spun that as something that would benefit them.  When I tried the same thing with SAR training, I was told "Um.  No, we don't see any benefit for us.  But nice try."

[SunDog]

When I worked for the Coast Guard, as a civlian employee, they could be very flexible with my hours and work week, if a CAP need came up that needed a couple of days.

The Coasties are very staright-arrow, though - I either took leave, or made up the hours, with no messing about, no "pocket" leave.  That said, my COs all had a good deal of empathy for the CAP mission - I spent nearly a week in a search effort once, missed four days of work, on almost no notice.  I made up some time, took leave for the rest, and got a very kind mention from our CO at the next all-hands.

Bottom line, our Admin guy pursued the question with CG HR & Legal, per our CO's direction (she was a class act!), just to be sure I was covered on life and health insurance (I was), and to see if military leave could be used. That was a definite ""No". 

[Devil Doc]

http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/related-information/

This is the appropriate area you need to look into.

Basically....if you grease it with your department head....it should fly.

LOL, this is bascially what the HR person said when I asked her Questions. She stated you could get AA if known in advance, just have to persuad the Director. She also said, as long as i have "Official Orders" for an emergency disaster I could get up to 3 days, 5 for special occassions.

She states talk to your Supervisor and Department Head, and make a Game plan.

[RiverAux]

• Temporary Coast Guard Reserve (see 23 Comptroller General 916);

I'm shocked that anyone bothered to even mention the Temporary Coast Guard Reserve since the CG hasn't used their capability to have TRs since WWII and as far as I've been able to determine don't have a single policy or procedure relevant to them on the books today.

[Garibaldi]

Every company I've worked for has been pretty good about giving me time off, albeit unpaid, when it comes to CAP training and SAREXs. I just explained it to the boss, who said "No problemo. It'll have to be unpaid, but it will be unpunished as well (no occurrences, etc)."

[Woodsy]

I am a union worker for a major railroad-  I work on call and varying shifts.  We have a strict points based attendance system with several steps that have different outcomes (none good) depending on the step you're at.  It takes 2 months of no attendance issues to get back the points you receive for non-sick mark off (sick requires a doctors note, and it wouldn't go over well when they think I'm at home sick and then see me on TV as a PIO...)  I'm part of the FLWG team that handles all missions, so I'm heavily involved in all real missions.  Unfortunately, since starting this job a year ago, I've had to withdraw my participation quite a bit.  Such is life. 

The State of Florida had legislation pending last year to grant CAP members the same protections as reserve/guard component, but only for actual emergency missions (i.e. not training, commander's call, etc.)  It looked as if we had the supporters and co-sponsors needed for it to pass, but somehow it never made it to vote by the end of the session.  Hoping we can get it pushed through sometime soon. 

Also, for those that have a similar arrangement in their state and you're required to give a copy of official orders, how do you handle that?  is it simply a letter from the IC on a CAP letterhead confirming your participation in a mission and the dates, or what?

[Garibaldi]

I was asked to get a letter from my CC on official letterhead.

[ALH]

For the AF types: Under some circumstances, you can take Permissive TDY (PTDY). I've done this a couple of times, for an encampment and some other small activities. It is up to the discretion of your commander, and as long as you do not abuse the perk, it can be a great option.

The catch? 10 days max for cadet programs, 4 days for ES-type mission. That will disqualify some of those longer activities unless you can convince them to use it in conjunction with regular leave, which is at their discretion.

If you are able to work it out so that you could call in and do the paperwork(Form 988) later (a la ES missions), all the better.

Reference: AFI 36-3003, Chapter 12, Table 7, Subsections 23 and 24

Other branches may have this as well - it may be worth looking into.

[Panache]

While looking into it for Pennsylvania, I came across this, which appears to apply to State employees:

8.53 Firefighting, Emergency Medical Technician, Emergency Management, Civil Air Patrol and Red Cross.
(a) Permanent employees, while performing firefighting duties, emergency medical technician duties, Civil Air Patrol activities, or emergency management rescue work during a fire, flood, hurricane, or other disaster may be granted civil leave. Certified Red Cross disaster relief volunteers also may be granted civil leave to perform disaster relief work for the Red Cross during a state of emergency declared by a Governor.
(b) Volunteer participation in firefighting activities, emergency medical technician activities, Civil Air Patrol activities, emergency management rescue work or disaster relief work for the Red Cross requires the prior approval of the agency head. Employees absent from work for reasons under subsection (a) are required to obtain a written statement from the fire company, forest unit, emergency management unit, Red Cross, or other organization with which they served certifying as to their activities during the period of absence.

(emphasis mine)

SOURCE

As far as I could tell, "Civil Leave" is unpaid. 

That being said, I can't find anything in PA law guaranteeing CAP members any sort of leave, paid or unpaid, for missions.

[Brad]

This is part of the reason I'm joining State Guard. Here in SC we're under the military department of SC and the Adjutant General's office, same as SC National Guard. Therefore I can get military leave for training. Activations on the the other hand, I'd likely have to turn down unless it was strictly State Guard, as I'm an essential employee for state law enforcement so I'd be getting pulled both ways if it was multi-agency.