Senior Member D&C and Customs/Courtesies.

[antdetroitwallyball]

I was just curious to know how CAP's senior members are doing with Drills/Ceremony and Customs/Courtesies. I get that the official resident experts at this stuff are our Cadets, but I was just curious to here from other senior members (or cadets) here regarding how well they think their squadron's Senior Members are at all of this stuff.

My Squadron: A group of diversly-aged senior members all with great attitudes, moral compasses, and CAP-related knowledge. Everyone seems to get along pretty well with each other, and very little Old Boy's Networks. So great things here.

Except D/C and Customs/Courtesies. In short, we suck miserably at this. Again, I get that it almost *doesn't matter* for 99% of what the SM do, but should we ever go on base or be at an encampment, it might be bad. We are fairly consistent with using proper titles (Captain, 2nd LT, etc), but in terms of salutes and even the finer points of uniform appearence, we are not so hot. To their credit, the squandron leadership has acknowledged that we need work here, and as I was saying in a previous thread, we will occasionally pull a cadet into the SM room and have him/her spend an hour or so brushing us up. The Cadets really get a kick out of that, and they are really good at that stuff.

So, how does you squadron rank in terms of all this for Senior Members? BTW, I'm 26 years old, and you best believe that I regularly call out Cadets that refer to the Senior Members as "you old guys." I'm barely 8 years older than some of the cadets, thank you very much. No "senior member" here. 

[Garibaldi]

I was just curious to know how CAP's senior members are doing with Drills/Ceremony and Customs/Courtesies. I get that the official resident experts at this stuff are our Cadets, but I was just curious to here from other senior members (or cadets) here regarding how well they think their squadron's Senior Members are at all of this stuff.

My Squadron: A group of diversly-aged senior members all with great attitudes, moral compasses, and CAP-related knowledge. Everyone seems to get along pretty well with each other, and very little Old Boy's Networks. So great things here.

Except D/C and Customs/Courtesies. In short, we suck miserably at this. Again, I get that it almost *doesn't matter* for 99% of what the SM do, but should we ever go on base or be at an encampment, it might be bad. We are fairly consistent with using proper titles (Captain, 2nd LT, etc), but in terms of salutes and even the finer points of uniform appearence, we are not so hot. To their credit, the squandron leadership has acknowledged that we need work here, and as I was saying in a previous thread, we will occasionally pull a cadet into the SM room and have him/her spend an hour or so brushing us up. The Cadets really get a kick out of that, and they are really good at that stuff.

So, how does you squadron rank in terms of all this for Senior Members? BTW, I'm 26 years old, and you best believe that I regularly call out Cadets that refer to the Senior Members as "you old guys." I'm barely 8 years older than some of the cadets, thank you very much. No "senior member" here. 

In exactly 4 of the 5 units I have been in, D&C/C&C was religiously avoided by all seniors unless they were directly involved in CP AND have either been a cadet or served in the military. When opening formation came around the seniors would literally run into their offices and find something to do that kept them from joining in, or they arrived "just late enough" and wore either civvies "because they just came in from work" or their polo "because it isn't a uniform. I didn't join a civilian volunteer organization to march and salute." And no one had an interest in even learning the proper way to report for promotions or awards. They ended up looking ridiculous. Cadets would literally point and laugh behind their backs. Of course, I 86'd that pretty quick. In most cases. But that's another story for another time.

This is a sad indictment. I really think that in order for a SM to progress past level 1, they need to demonstrate basic C&C/D&C. Basic enough so that when they go to a Wing or Region (God forbid a National) activity, they don't look like a bag-o-donuts when reporting to receive their Gill Robb Wilson award, even if wearing the G/W (See how this easily slipped into a uniform thread?). The cadets don't and won't respect someone who can't or won't try to learn the processes.

I tried. I really tried to get a basic class going for new seniors in my units, but I was met with the above arguments. Too much work to do, I didn't join the military, I got enough of this in my __ years of AD, what I wear isn't a uniform so why should I have to learn this. I've heard it all. I know, I know. We can't enforce much because we don't have the "authority" inherent in CAP, but what can we do? What, I ask you?

Cadets have complained about the lack of C&C among the seniors to me. It really does affect them when they see that C&C/D&C doesn't apparently apply to the senior side and isn't enforced like it is with cadets. They are glad that I take the time to try to help and correct what I see wrong with them, quietly, on the side, when they muck up. They just don't understand when Commander Cody can't be bothered to to salute properly when they have to.

[antdetroitwallyball]

Very interesting post, thank you!

I really think that in order for a SM to progress past level 1, they need to demonstrate basic C&C/D&C. Basic enough so that when they go to a Wing or Region (God forbid a National) activity, they don't look like a bag-o-donuts when reporting to receive their Gill Robb Wilson award

I totally agree. I understand that the reason that D/C still persists in our non-military volunteer organization is primarily due to tradition and honoring our past as a opposed to a necessary function, but if we wear a distinctive uniform, let's at least honor it by having some basic D/C skills.

Cadets have complained about the lack of C&C among the seniors to me. It really does affect them when they see that C&C/D&C doesn't apparently apply to the senior side and isn't enforced like it is with cadets.

This is really what worries me. Let's just be honest: on a practical life-skills you-need-to-know-this-to-become-a-functioning-adult level, the degree to which cadets do D/C and C/C is just dumb. I would have to believe there is occasionally an older cadet that at some point looks back and asks himself, "Why exactly do we do all this??" They are expected to act military when they are not military. However, I would never advocate decreasing the amount of D/C & C/C that the cadets do. It teaches them respect and leadership skills on a very subtle but very effective level. As SM in my squadron is fond of saying, "cadets are learning stuff and they don't even realize it."

So here's the problem: The whole of the cadet program is to help kids begin to fit into their quickly approaching roles as being young adults. At 15, a kid is "trying on" different adult roles, even if he has no idea what he is doing. That's why a 15 year old will have his mom drive him and his girl to a date at a McDonalds. Does that make sense? Of Course not. But he's trying to figure out the roles grown adult play by doing things he percieves to be "a grown adult activity" (e.g. dating). My point is, you can fool a 13-14 year old for so long, but at some point, a 16 year old cadet is not going to stay motivated in taking D/C seriously if he sees people who may not be much older than he is (a 26 year old SM, me) completely act like D/C is "just something adult CAP members don't do." I feel for the protection of the cadet program's integrity, all SM need to have at least a baseline knowledge of D/C.

Best way to ensure this is, IMHO, make the Seniors do very basic/brief D/C IN THE PRESENCE OF THE CADETS every meeting night at opening ceremony. The practice will eventually result in proficiency, and it will send the message to the cadets that, "hey, this stuff does actually matter." Even if it really actually doesn't. 

[JoeTomasone]

Sorry, but I can't concur with the above.

The regulation pamphlet (CAPP 151 for those keeping score) requires C&C to be observed by ALL CAP members, not just Cadets.  If you don't enforce it amongst the SMs, what right do you have to expect it from the Cadets?

I consider this to be an integrity issue - you know, one of those core values we profess to believe in.   If you don't want to join a civilian, volunteer organization that happens to be the auxiliary to one of the Armed Forces and that requires proper uniform wear and C&C, then DON'T.

"But we need SMs in our squadron to do real work and don't want to drive them away!"

You know what?  Everyone will rise only to the highest level of apathy observed.   If you foster an attitude where some of the requirements are optional, then you foster an environment where everyone essentially gets to make their own rules - or at least, test the boundaries.   If you foster an environment where you have standards and do not tolerate a willful failure to adhere to those standards, then compliance will increase and interest from those who appreciate a more professional environment will increase as well.   

It makes absolutely zero sense to require SMs to demonstrate C&C and proper uniform wear to achieve Level 1 if you never expect them to do it again and don't enforce them.   In fact, I'd expect grumbling from them over having to learn something that they will never use again.


I would submit the following excerpts from USAF commentaries for your consideration:

Military customs and courtesies go beyond basic politeness; they play an extremely important role in building morale, esprit de corps, discipline, and mission effectiveness. It's about being proud of who you are and what you stand for. Customs and courtesies ensure proper respect for the chain of command and build the foundation for self-discipline ... they make our Air Force and it's people special.

Customs and courtesies go beyond basic politeness and play an extremely important role in building morale, esprit de corps, discipline and mission effectiveness. They ensure proper respect for the chain of command and build the foundation for self-discipline. Our core values of integrity first, service before self and excellence in all we do are tied directly to our customs and courtesies. For this reason, it is vital for each one of us to evaluate our level of commitment to them.

What does it say to a new Airman when they see a noncommissioned officer or officer violating customs and courtesies? It tells the Airman it's acceptable to do the same. What does it say when we turn our heads to these violations? It merely reinforces the act as normal and acceptable behavior.

How can we as leaders expect our Airmen to live by the core values when we ourselves aren't doing the same? If we are turning our heads and looking the other way, we are just as guilty as the individual committing the act.

We all know what customs and courtesies are and why they are important. They are not something we abide by only when someone is around or we think someone is watching. They should be an everyday part of our lives. They show pride in who we are and what we do. When we live by our core values and practice our customs and courtesies, that pride is plainly visible for all to see.

Recently it's been noted that members fail to salute staff cars, pause for TAPs, reveille and retreat, or render proper customs and courtesies. While it's easy to rationalize the behavior away, we must embrace our customs and courtesies. They remind us "who we are," and easily translate from the shore to the airfield, the cruiser to the battlefield. In peacetime and war, we are required to maintain professionalism, etiquette, situational awareness, respect for authority and faith with our country and comrades.

Practicing these precepts is impossible if we have a "self before service" mentality instead of "service before self."

[antdetroitwallyball]

Major Tomasone:

It sounds like we are agreeing 100% on everything as far as I can see.

If you don't want to join a civilian, volunteer organization that happens to be the auxiliary to one of the Armed Forces and that requires proper uniform wear and C&C, then DON'T.

I completely agree. Join a flying club.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

First (best) squadron, composite squadron: Only wore AF uniforms, C&C enforced on meeting time on both seniors and cadets (rank only, no first names).  Began each unit assembly with formation in drill hall.  1993-1999.  Left due to move/marriage; transferred to senior squadron.  Best bunch of CAP members I ever worked with.

Second squadron, senior squadron:  I was the only one who wore the AF uniform.  Others wore a mix of polos (usually with blue jeans), flight suits with no insignia except leather nameplate, and the very, very occasional G/W/blazer.  C&C's almost nonexistent.  I addressed a Lieutenant Colonel as "sir" and he said "we're not real sticklers for rank here."  1999-2001.  Left due to disgust with "flying club" policies (if you weren't a pilot, you were excess baggage, even as an observer/scanner, and they did not like to fly cadets).

Third squadron, composite squadron.  C&C's usually enforced, but not rigidly.  Cadet Commander had a tendency toward R. Lee Ermey wannabe, for which both myself (safety) and CC admonished him for several times.  2005-2006.  Left due to completely messed-up/GOBN influenced IG investigation.

Fourth squadron, cadet squadron morphed into (very large and active) senior squadron.  C&C's more rigidly enforced among the cadets than seniors, but joint senior/cadet formation at beginning of meetings.  Cadets had very good drill team.  2009-2012.  Left solely due to distance/drive time/gas prices; transferred to closer unit.

Fifth squadron (current), composite squadron.  Hard to say because have very few cadets.  Rank used during meetings, but saluting somewhat rare among seniors.  2012-present.

[Garibaldi]

First (best) squadron, composite squadron: Only wore AF uniforms, C&C enforced on meeting time on both seniors and cadets (rank only, no first names).  Began each unit assembly with formation in drill hall.  1993-1999.  Left due to move/marriage; transferred to senior squadron.  Best bunch of CAP members I ever worked with.

Second squadron, senior squadron:  I was the only one who wore the AF uniform.  Others wore a mix of polos (usually with blue jeans), flight suits with no insignia except leather nameplate, and the very, very occasional G/W/blazer.  C&C's almost nonexistent.  I addressed a Lieutenant Colonel as "sir" and he said "we're not real sticklers for rank here."  1999-2001.  Left due to disgust with "flying club" policies (if you weren't a pilot, you were excess baggage, even as an observer/scanner, and they did not like to fly cadets).

Then that unit had a failure to comply fully with the missions of CAP.

Third squadron, composite squadron.  C&C's usually enforced, but not rigidly.  Cadet Commander had a tendency toward R. Lee Ermey wannabe, for which both myself (safety) and CC admonished him for several times.  2005-2006.  Left due to completely messed-up/GOBN influenced IG investigation.

Fourth squadron, cadet squadron morphed into (very large and active) senior squadron.  C&C's more rigidly enforced among the cadets than seniors, but joint senior/cadet formation at beginning of meetings.  Cadets had very good drill team.  2009-2012.  Left solely due to distance/drive time/gas prices; transferred to closer unit.

Fifth squadron (current), composite squadron.  Hard to say because have very few cadets.  Rank used during meetings, but saluting somewhat rare among seniors.  2012-present.

[SunDog]

We're a composite sqdn - I'm gonna be transparent here, so if you feel the need to flame, go for it - just know it won't burn in a vacuum. . .

We (SM's) form up alongside the cadets at close of meeting, to do promotions, etc.  USAF uniform or corporate grey/whites are almost never worn, by anyone.  One of the CP SMs wears woodland sometimes.  But mostly polo and/or BDU, or blue, (sometimes sage green), flight suits. Baseball caps all around, generally, with sqdn number and rank embroidered, on all but the rare USAF uniform attendee.

SM's use rank address in the room when cadets are present. Much less so, though occasionally, when SMs only are present. When a cadet encounters one of us outdoors salutes are returned.  Very rare to render between SMs except during formation.  We fly our cadets, and some other sqdns, as well.

SMs do not march. On a personal note, the formation for SMs seems kinda quaint; no real harm done, but not much value, either.  The same stuff could be said and done in the meeting.  YMMV and good on ya, if you like it. Live and let live. Not according to Big CAP, I know, but this is our small corner of CAP reality.

I think the Wing weenies formed and marched for some reason or other at a monthly gathering.  Few times I went to Wing, I skipped the festivities.  Some SMs also started finding better uses for their time, and I think the custom dies out (but not sure).

[JoeTomasone]

Baseball caps all around, generally, with sqdn number and rank embroidered, on all but the rare USAF uniform attendee.

Minor flame.  Squadron number and grade insignia are not authorized on the CAP Baseball cap; nothing is permitted on the (woodland camo) BDU Baseball Cap. 

[SunDog]

Yep, no problem - someone mentioned it before (baseball cap & rank).  It our sqdn custom alone; it's wing wide. I guess it's more "unauthorized" than "not permitted". Maybe just ignored.

[JoeTomasone]

Yep, no problem - someone mentioned it before (baseball cap & rank).  It our sqdn custom alone; it's wing wide. I guess it's more "unauthorized" than "not permitted". Maybe just ignored.

Except:

COMPLIANCE WITH
THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. Any variation from this publication is not authorized.
Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear.

[Spaceman3750]

Baseball caps all around, generally, with sqdn number and rank embroidered, on all but the rare USAF uniform attendee.

Minor flame.  Squadron number and grade insignia are not authorized on the CAP Baseball cap; nothing is permitted on the (woodland camo) BDU Baseball Cap.

IAW 39-1 Table 2-3 item 6, unit designator is approved for the CAP baseball cap.

Color, unit designation, andcloth or silk screen organizational emblem or badge as prescribed by unit commander. Emblem or badge, if authorized, will be centered 1/2 inch above visor.

[JoeTomasone]

Color, unit designation, andcloth or silk screen organizational emblem or badge as prescribed by unit commander. Emblem or badge, if authorized, will be centered 1/2 inch above visor.

Except the Unit Designation is NOT the Charter Number; it is the name of the unit.  For example:

3. Letterhead.

a. Preprinted letterhead is preferred when writing a memorandum style letter or a business
style letter. The use of preprinted letterhead is optional for other types of written
correspondence.

b. Letterhead must include these elements: unit designation; the words "Civil Air Patrol";
"United States Air Force Auxiliary"; and the geographic location of the unit. Letterhead will
start 1/2 inch from the top edge of the page and be centered. Letterhead should be in a non-serif
font. Arial is preferred. The words "United States Air Force Auxiliary" and the geographical
information may be a smaller font than the unit designation and "Civil Air Patrol". See
examples below:

HEADQUARTERS MISSOURI WING
CIVIL AIR PATROL
UNITED STATES AIR FORCE AUXILIARY
PO Box 15604
Kansas City MO 64108-5000

RIVERDALE COMPOSITE SQUADRON
CIVIL AIR PATROL UNITED STATES AIR FORCE AUXILIARY
1276 Airline Street
Trenton MI 12345-510

USAF Example:

Unit Designation: 224th Joint Communications Support Squadron

Previous Designation: 224th Combat Communications Squadron (Contingency)

Baseball caps all around, generally, with sqdn number and rank embroidered, on all but the rare USAF uniform attendee.

[Shotgun]

Getting back to the original topic of this thread . . .

I've been part of three different in units in three different regions.

First unit was fairly casual. We often referred to each other by grade, but never had opening formations.
(Seniors meet on different night than cadets)

Second unit formed up with the cadets at the start of each meeting, but rarely saluted, referred to each other by grade, or saluted.

Third unit is quite different.  The unit is fairly young ( < 4 years old), and we've had a recent influx of younger seniors who are quite interested and enthusiastic about Drill and Ceremonies.

We form up at the beginning and end of each meeting, refer to each other by grade, and have actually just started dedicating one training block a month to drill. Most of the drill training is practicing formations, reporting, and facing movements. However, last month we went outside and worked on marching and flanks.

We are now where near as proficient as the cadets, but it has made us look %100 better when it comes to accepting awards and looking "professional".

There are a couple of seniors who really don't care about D&C, but overall most of the Seniors are enjoying it.
(From what I can tell.)

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

My first unit that observed D&C and C/C was the tightest unit I've been in - both seniors and cadets - and I think our formations and observation of rank contributed.

[coudano]

Well let's take a step back for a second, and think about the purpose of D&C.  Why do we do it?

In the cadet program, we use it as a tool in the leadership laboratory to teach a host of secondary skills.  We want active listening, attention to detail, command voice, confidence, situational awareness, thinking ahead, quickly reacting to contingencies, and yes even the oft mentioned 'teamwork'.  I can probably come up with more, if I think about it, those were just off the top of my head.

That said, senior members are not students (cadets) in the cadet program.  So those outcomes are not expected of senior members.  So for what reason would we use the tools that achieve those outcomes on senior members?

At the end of the day, most senior members need to know how to stand at attention, maybe at ease and parade rest, how to walk in a semi professional manner, and shake take and salute.  A reporting statement probably wouldn't kill either, but i'm calling that icing on the cake.  That's the drill that senior members need, in order to function for what is expected out of them as senior members.  (unfortunately, an awful lot of senior members fall flat on even this simple list of basics)


With regards to cadets being the 'experts' at drill, well...
I have seen too many train wrecks not to beg to differ.
Yes any cadet, certainly by the time they have earned their Mitchell award (at the latest) "should have" pretty much completely mastered at least flight level drill from the perspective of being able to execute the commands, give the commands, and also teach/evaluate.  It's actually part of the cadet's job and responsibility to do that.  But well, unfortunately, an awful lot of cadets (i'm talking about cadet senior nco's and cadet officers) fall flat on even this basic program requirement...

For my money, after you pin Mitchell, you are basically done drilling, except for standing there and performing ceremonial position once in a while.  But i've had rocks thrown at me over that, before

Senior members who work with the cadet program, particularly in the role of a leadership officer, need to at least know enough about drill to watch C/SSgt Drillzalot instructing C/AB Snuffy, from across the parking lot, and make a judgement call that what is being taught is "about right" (or not).  Senior members who conduct drill tests need to know enough about drill to watch a cadet doing it and give a legitimate pass or fail on at least the moves in the test.  In some cases, particularly new or recovering squadrons, a senior member might have to take an active role in directly teaching and evaluating drill for cadets, temporarily, until the cadets grow experienced enough to do it themselves with supervision (although i'd buy gas for a car load of cadets from a neighboring squadron to come down temporarily, if possible)

Senior members who do not work with the cadet program in that way...   are just senior members (see above).



As far as customs and courtesies, the way I see it you have a few 'problems' that you can approach,
1.  People who don't know what the 'right and proper' thing to do is (don't know)
2.  People who intentionally chose not to do the 'right and proper' thing at the right and proper time (or ever) (don't care)
3.  People who just make poor judgements about when or to what degree to apply 'right and proper' or when its ok to be more relaxed or casual.  (they know the right thing, and have just chosen... unwisely)

With regards to #3, it shouldn't be any secret that people who work together in a shop often have a relaxed mode of C&C in certain environments.  The problem is when you transition from one environment to the other.  The senior room at your squadron meeting might be first names.  But they 'should' pick up a little better standard for example, in front of cadets.  They should pick up an even higher standard outside at a retreat ceremony.  This is not even inconsistent with the realmilitary.  Nobody (maybe the tomb guards) is "on, 100%, all the time".

[JoeTomasone]

We want active listening, attention to detail, command voice, confidence, situational awareness, thinking ahead, quickly reacting to contingencies, and yes even the oft mentioned 'teamwork'.  I can probably come up with more, if I think about it, those were just off the top of my head.

That said, senior members are not students (cadets) in the cadet program.  So those outcomes are not expected of senior members.  So for what reason would we use the tools that achieve those outcomes on senior members?

Oh, my - have I got some SMs for YOU to meet...


In any event, it is expected (when in military-style uniform) of you and I and all SMs:

Senior Members. For senior members, the rendering of customs and
courtesies is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all
uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer). Regardless,
CAP encourages all members to take part in something larger than
themselves by participating in these rich traditions.

[a2capt]

California Wing, Civil Air Patrol

Presents
Senior Drill & Ceremonies School
11-13 April 2014
Los Alamitos Joint Forces Training Base, CA
Going to Encampment this year? Want to be more useful during drill times? Not sure what is the difference between a left flank, a column left, a column of twos?
Maybe, it has simply been a while.
Come learn. Challenge yourself.
Students:  Student Application deadline is received by 29 March 2014.   
Cost is $40, including billeting, meals, & T-Shirt.

Classes to Expect:
· Drill Terms
· Common Drill Errors
· Flight Drill
· Inspecting the Flight
· Observe Flight Drill
· Drill Competition Overview & Administration
· Squadron Formation & Squadron Drill
· Leading the Flight: Practical Experience
· Salutes & Customs and Courtesies
· And much more!
Refund Policy:  No refund will be issued for Cancellations within one week of the activity, unless for verified emergency.
Mail all applications (CAPF 31 & CAPF 160 with ALL signatures), with $40 check, to     LtCol Grace Edinboro, 4601 Ventura West Ct, Elk Grove, CA 95758
Senior DCS:  For seniors without experience in the military or as a cadet – learn the ropes so you can have a positive impact on the Cadet Program!  Open to all Senior Members, experienced or not!  (guaranteed fun will be had by all!!)

Commandant:
Major Martin P. Sanford
Mobile Phone:  (530) 417-4108
Email:  martinpsanford@gmail.com
Project Officer:
LtCol Grace E. Edinboro
Mobile Phone:  (916) 501-0262
Email:  grace.e.edinboro.mil@mail.mil

[JoeTomasone]

California Wing, Civil Air Patrol

Presents
Senior Drill & Ceremonies School

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[PHall]

And this is the third time in two years that this school is happening.

[Archer]

California Wing, Civil Air Patrol

Presents
Senior Drill & Ceremonies School
11-13 April 2014
Los Alamitos Joint Forces Training Base, CA
Going to Encampment this year? Want to be more useful during drill times? Not sure what is the difference between a left flank, a column left, a column of twos?
Maybe, it has simply been a while.
Come learn. Challenge yourself.
Students:  Student Application deadline is received by 29 March 2014.   
Cost is $40, including billeting, meals, & T-Shirt.

Classes to Expect:
· Drill Terms
· Common Drill Errors
· Flight Drill
· Inspecting the Flight
· Observe Flight Drill
· Drill Competition Overview & Administration
· Squadron Formation & Squadron Drill
· Leading the Flight: Practical Experience
· Salutes & Customs and Courtesies
· And much more!
Refund Policy:  No refund will be issued for Cancellations within one week of the activity, unless for verified emergency.
Mail all applications (CAPF 31 & CAPF 160 with ALL signatures), with $40 check, to     LtCol Grace Edinboro, 4601 Ventura West Ct, Elk Grove, CA 95758
Senior DCS:  For seniors without experience in the military or as a cadet – learn the ropes so you can have a positive impact on the Cadet Program!  Open to all Senior Members, experienced or not!  (guaranteed fun will be had by all!!)

Commandant:
Major Martin P. Sanford
Mobile Phone:  (530) 417-4108
Email:  martinpsanford@gmail.com
Project Officer:
LtCol Grace E. Edinboro
Mobile Phone:  (916) 501-0262
Email:  grace.e.edinboro.mil@mail.mil

If I'm paying to be taught something that requires simple precision such as drill, I would expect you to be able to exhibit precision in something equally as simple such as properly abreviating your grade. A minor error, but enough to make me weary of giving someone my money to teach precision with attention to detail.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

And this is the third time in two years that this school is happening.

Then God bless 'em, I say.

[SarDragon]

[redacted}

If I'm paying to be taught something that requires simple precision such as drill, I would expect you to be able to exhibit precision in something equally as simple such as properly abreviating abbreviating your grade. A minor error, but enough to make me weary of giving someone my money to teach precision with attention to detail.

And I suggest that you get your own house in order before trying to clean others'. This is one of those unintended consequences - the more important "getting it right" is in a post, the greater the likelihood of making a misteak mistake.

[a2capt]

That. Ouch.

[Patterson]

If I'm paying to be taught something that requires simple precision such as drill, I would expect you to be able to exhibit precision in something equally as simple such as properly abreviating your grade. A minor error, but enough to make me weary of giving someone my money to teach precision with attention to detail.

Your attention to detail and lack of commonsense is embarrassing. The abbreviation "LtCol" is how the Marine Corps abbreviates Lieutenant Colonel and the abbreviation "Lt Col" (notice the single space) is how the Air Force abbreviates Lieutenant Colonel.  Furthermore, had your attention to detail been spot on, you would have noticed the LtCol's email address is a military email address.  Thus common sense kicks in and you have to ask, "could he be a Marine Officer". If he is, I give more applause to the individual that correctly abbreviated his grade, most simply would use the Air Force abbreviation because that's what they are accustomed to.

[Ned]

As much as I hate to allow truth to interfere with a classic CT furball,

Lt Col Grace Edinboro, CAP,  is also COL Grace Edinboro, an Army officer with a couple of Iraq tours behind her and a Combat Action Badge.  (Plus a former Air Force NCO before she commissioned in the green.)

She is also a former Earhart cadet and pegs the Coolness Meter at max.

And BTW, she didn't write the email, it was done by staff.

You can now go back to arguing about Important CAP Matters like abbreviations and uniforms.

Ned Lee

[antdetroitwallyball]

SM's use rank address in the room when cadets are present. Much less so, though occasionally, when SMs only are present. When a cadet encounters one of us outdoors salutes are returned.  Very rare to render between SMs except during formation.  We fly our cadets, and some other sqdns, as well. SMs do not march.YMMV and good on ya, if you like it. Live and let live. Not according to Big CAP, I know, but this is our small corner of CAP reality.

This is exactly how my composite squadron is too.

On a personal note, the formation for SMs seems kinda quaint; no real harm done, but not much value, either.

True, I agree for the most part........but again, if the cadets are watching, there could be some harm done. I'm 26 years old. Unlike 95% of the rest of the 30 SM in my squadron (all of whom are 30+ years) old, I can relate to the cadets on a "youngish person level." I listen to the same music they listen to (mostly), I watch much of the same TV shows, and the highschool I went through was pretty much the same as they are going through. In terms of maturity and basic life knowledge, I'm obviously lightyears ahead, so I'm in no way a peer to them.......but you get my drift. Point being, I feel I have a slightly heavier responsibility to play the part of "squared-away," since they don't look at me like I'm "old enough to be a cadet's father."

I remember when I was on a highschool NRA pistol team as a teenager. Our team had 5 coaches, all of whom were 50+ years old, except for one of the coaches who was in his 20's. He was the coolest guy around. My teamates and I just tended to gravitate towards him because although he was our coach, he wasn't old enough to be anyone's father. Same concept here.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Being young and a "Senior Member" is certainly interesting. Having been a former cadet, even more so. Apparently those that didn't know, assumed I was in my late 20s or so and were shocked to find out at the time that I was a mere 23. But outside of that? It's not a big enough leap to realize that in any given CAP environment, chances are I'm 10-15 years junior of any other adult in the room.

[Private Investigator]

As much as I hate to allow truth to interfere with a classic CT furball,

Lt Col Grace Edinboro, CAP,  is also COL Grace Edinboro, an Army officer with a couple of Iraq tours behind her and a Combat Action Badge.  (Plus a former Air Force NCO before she commissioned in the green.)

She is also a former Earhart cadet and pegs the Coolness Meter at max.

And BTW, she didn't write the email, it was done by staff.

You can now go back to arguing about Important CAP Matters like abbreviations and uniforms.

Ned Lee

Ned, thanks for the heads up.

[Garibaldi]

As much as I hate to allow truth to interfere with a classic CT furball,

Lt Col Grace Edinboro, CAP,  is also COL Grace Edinboro, an Army officer with a couple of Iraq tours behind her and a Combat Action Badge.  (Plus a former Air Force NCO before she commissioned in the green.)

She is also a former Earhart cadet and pegs the Coolness Meter at max.

And BTW, she didn't write the email, it was done by staff.

You can now go back to arguing about Important CAP Matters like abbreviations and uniforms.

Ned Lee

Lawyered.

[arBar]

Since we are in the auxiliary of a military branch, and our regulations do call us to practice C&C, I think we should practice those things and demonstrate them at all appropriate times.  At this point I've been in 3.5 years and have yet to experience any kind of formal training in C&C or D&C within CAP.  Its always been a "watch and learn" thing.  Whatever form that formal training takes, though,  I'd love to see it.  Personally I think one solution would be to have that formal training prior to completion of Level I.  Maybe even do Officer Basic Course before getting 2d Lt as well. 

[fokkerfrenzy]

While you do have to read through the C&C section for Level 1, once you're through it and signed off it does seem to be a 'do what everyone else does in your squadron' kind of a thing in a lot of places I've seen/ heard about.

Thankfully, our composite squadron isn't divisive between the sections.  And since our emphasis is CP, but with a fair bit of professional development of SMs, SM work with the cadets every meeting to some extent, and we join opening/closing and awards formations so there is still a rudimentary understanding of formation mechanics necessary.

[Storm Chaser]

While I agree that it may be useful to learn drill and ceremonies before completing Level 1 and receiving a CAP promotion to 2d Lt, I don't see how drill and ceremony is needed within the senior program after that, unless (maybe) directly working with cadets. Even in the Air Force, drill and ceremonies is not practice much after BMT/Tech School for enlisted and USAFA/ROTC/OTS for officers, other than the occasional formation for a change of command or similar activity.

Customs and courtesies should always be observed when in uniform regardless of grade and membership type (cadet or senior member). That said, there's nothing wrong with CAP officers being a bit less formal when not in the presence of cadets. In fact, Air Force officers within the same or lower grade often refer to each other by their first names. When in the presence of junior officers, NCOs or airmen, a more formal approach is expected.

Finally, while CAP members don't always seem to follow regulations when it comes to customs and courtesies, uniforms and the like, it seems that many members here tend to get too wrapped up around the axle about these things. Don't get me wrong; it's not that they're not important. It's just that there are other more important things that affect CAP than this.

[THRAWN]

I ran a few Level 1 classes and always made sure that C&C/D&C was covered thoroughly. I would have some of the Base Honor Guard, or if they weren't available, some sharp cadets come in and show the students how it's done. When I was a squadron commander, that was part of our meeting.

[Mitchell 1969]

If I'm paying to be taught something that requires simple precision such as drill, I would expect you to be able to exhibit precision in something equally as simple such as properly abreviating your grade. A minor error, but enough to make me weary of giving someone my money to teach precision with attention to detail.

Did you perhaps mean "wary?"  If so, don't be. It could end up being one of the best bargains you ever got in CAP.

In addition to what Ned mentioned about Lt Col Grace Edinboro, the other party named in the announcement has impressive credentials.

Major Martin P. Sanford is a former Earhart cadet, former member of the USMC Silent Drill Team, former U.S. Army Drill Sergeant, retired Army First Sergeant and former CAP Senior Master Sergeant. He has served as a judge at countless drill competitions. Unlike some who are passionate about showing off their D&C prowess, he is passionate about passing on D&C knowledge to others.

[Garibaldi]

If I'm paying to be taught something that requires simple precision such as drill, I would expect you to be able to exhibit precision in something equally as simple such as properly abreviating your grade. A minor error, but enough to make me weary of giving someone my money to teach precision with attention to detail.

Did you perhaps mean "wary?"  If so, don't be. It could end up being one of the best bargains you ever got in CAP.

In addition to what Ned mentioned about Lt Col Grace Edinboro, the other party named in the announcement has impressive credentials.

Major Martin P. Sanford is a former Earhart cadet, former member of the USMC Silent Drill Team, former U.S. Army Drill Sergeant, retired Army First Sergeant and former CAP Senior Master Sergeant. He has served as a judge at countless drill competitions. Unlike some who are passionate about showing off their D&C prowess, he is passionate about passing on D&C knowledge to others.

Then there are SMs like me, who grew up as a cadet in an era when D&C was really enforced, and had it reinforced during basic and ROTC. I couldn't escape it, so I went with it. Sometimes I feel funny doing it, but I'm doing it right, and not looking nearly as funny as some seniors I will keep nameless. And I am happy to pass along what I know, to both cadets and seniors.

[EMT-83]

I have to chuckle at the "I wish this was included in Level 1" comments. This material is included in Level 1. The problem is units playing lip service to Level 1 or treating as an on-line course.

[Brit_in_CAP]

If I'm paying to be taught something that requires simple precision such as drill, I would expect you to be able to exhibit precision in something equally as simple such as properly abreviating your grade. A minor error, but enough to make me weary of giving someone my money to teach precision with attention to detail.

Did you perhaps mean "wary?"  If so, don't be. It could end up being one of the best bargains you ever got in CAP.

In addition to what Ned mentioned about Lt Col Grace Edinboro, the other party named in the announcement has impressive credentials.

Major Martin P. Sanford is a former Earhart cadet, former member of the USMC Silent Drill Team, former U.S. Army Drill Sergeant, retired Army First Sergeant and former CAP Senior Master Sergeant. He has served as a judge at countless drill competitions. Unlike some who are passionate about showing off their D&C prowess, he is passionate about passing on D&C knowledge to others.

Then there are SMs like me, who grew up as a cadet in an era when D&C was really enforced, and had it reinforced during basic and ROTC. I couldn't escape it, so I went with it. Sometimes I feel funny doing it, but I'm doing it right, and not looking nearly as funny as some seniors I will keep nameless. And I am happy to pass along what I know, to both cadets and seniors.

I'm like you - drill was required but, in my case, I assume I know nothing as the two styles of drill are *very* different!  My cadets have been teaching me - kindly - how to do USAF drill but I brought the whole thing to a grinding stop one night when I had a flashback to 20 years previous - the cadet gave an order and I executed British style!  They're still laughing about that one..

Around the same time, I also introduced myself to a visiting cadet from NCWG using my former RAF rank...   I have never seen anyone look quite so confused   I'm hoping it isn't 'an age thing' but....!

Getting to the thread, I have one simple view of D&C: do it right.  Nothing looks so wrong as someone attempting D&C and failing to execute correctly.  If all you know how to do is to report correctly and salute, do it with style and be proud of it.

If you're around the cadet program there's is no real excuse; you really should be able to critique the cadets and not always rely on the 'knowledgeable cadet' - they often learn by osmosis and we (my squadron) demonstrated recently that it isn't always good knowledge they're absorbing.  If you're not around the CP, you should still be able to do the basics.  Cadets salute officers and smartly and properly returning that salute is very important.

[JeffDG]

Around the same time, I also introduced myself to a visiting cadet from NCWG using my former RAF rank...   I have never seen anyone look quite so confused   I'm hoping it isn't 'an age thing' but....!

The puzzled looks I get when introducing Lts and Lt Cols have mostly died out for me.  When I made Capt it was nice, because I usually got a puzzled look when introducing myself before that.

[Walkman]

I have to chuckle at the "I wish this was included in Level 1" comments. This material is included in Level 1. The problem is units playing lip service to Level 1 or treating as an on-line course.

Now that L1 is going back to an in-person class, the opportunity opens up for some better instruction. I did the home study version of L1. I keep working on my basic drill movements here and there. Eventually I'll get 'em right.

[EMT-83]

Level 1 was always an in-person class, except for the lazy people doing it wrong. Hopefully that mindset will change with the new program.

[Walkman]

Level 1 was always an in-person class, except for the lazy people doing it wrong. Hopefully that mindset will change with the new program.

Level 1 has been self-pace, open book since I started in '07.

[EMT-83]

Level 1 was never supposed to be Do It Yourself. Because the material was readily available, squadrons got lazy and took a hands-off approach. Someone was supposed to mentoring the new member, filling in the blanks and making sure the material was understood. Commanders were supposed to be conducting a Summary Conversation. Based on the general cluelessness of many new members, apparently none of this was taking place.

The new program is better, actually assigning the PDO as the instructor. But there still the opportunity to log into eServices and click on mentor approval without the new member actually having a clue. I guess time will tell.

[Walkman]

Level 1 was never supposed to be Do It Yourself. Because the material was readily available, squadrons got lazy and took a hands-off approach. Someone was supposed to mentoring the new member, filling in the blanks and making sure the material was understood. Commanders were supposed to be conducting a Summary Conversation. Based on the general cluelessness of many new members, apparently none of this was taking place.

The new program is better, actually assigning the PDO as the instructor. But there still the opportunity to log into eServices and click on mentor approval without the new member actually having a clue. I guess time will tell.

Its funny how things are carried forward over time. My first unit was pretty solid, the SMs that were there was dedicated and did a good job. However the CC was absent, pretty much all the time and ended up being 2b (whole 'nother story). I did L1 pretty much all on my own and by that being my experience, I carried that practice with me until the new regs mandated a class. I had heard the L1 used to be a class and several older members at the time lamented it going the "self-study" route, and I agreed it would have been better. I was ready to jump in and do some "real training" to be an "officer" and was disappointed in L1. When I did OBC, I thought "I wish this was what the Level 1 course was". But that's a whole nother thread...

[MacGruff]

Its funny how things are carried forward over time. My first unit was pretty solid, the SMs that were there was dedicated and did a good job. However the CC was absent, pretty much all the time and ended up being 2b (whole 'nother story). I did L1 pretty much all on my own and by that being my experience, I carried that practice with me until the new regs mandated a class. I had heard the L1 used to be a class and several older members at the time lamented it going the "self-study" route, and I agreed it would have been better. I was ready to jump in and do some "real training" to be an "officer" and was disappointed in L1. When I did OBC, I thought "I wish this was what the Level 1 course was". But that's a whole nother thread...

I'm in complete agreement with you as my experiences mirrored yours. I signed up and was never told to do anything except for get on e-services and do the OpSec class. By playing around on e-services I found the information about Level 1 and took all of the training. Once I finished everything, I had to pretty much hound the folks at the squadron to get me the Membership ribbon and stuff.

I started on Level 2 almost immediately after finishing Level 1 and took the Office Basic Course. Wow! What an eye opener!!! It had answers in those modules to all the questions that I've been attempting to find someone to ask!

In my opinion, Office Basic Course should be moved to Level 1, or, at the very least, become a prerequisite for the promotion to 2nd Lieutenant!

[Archer]

[redacted}

If I'm paying to be taught something that requires simple precision such as drill, I would expect you to be able to exhibit precision in something equally as simple such as properly abreviating abbreviating your grade. A minor error, but enough to make me weary of giving someone my money to teach precision with attention to detail.

And I suggest that you get your own house in order before trying to clean others'. This is one of those unintended consequences - the more important "getting it right" is in a post, the greater the likelihood of making a misteak mistake.

I done goofed.

My hypocrisy notwithstanding, thanks for clearing up the colonel's credentials, people.

[Mitchell 1969]

When I did OBC, I thought "I wish this was what the Level 1 course was". But that's a whole nother thread...

I started on Level 2 almost immediately after finishing Level 1 and took the Office Basic Course. Wow! What an eye opener!!! It had answers in those modules to all the questions that I've been attempting to find someone to ask!

In my opinion, Office Basic Course should be moved to Level 1, or, at the very least, become a prerequisite for the promotion to 2nd Lieutenant!

Indeed!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

When I did OBC, I thought "I wish this was what the Level 1 course was". But that's a whole nother thread...

I started on Level 2 almost immediately after finishing Level 1 and took the Office Basic Course. Wow! What an eye opener!!! It had answers in those modules to all the questions that I've been attempting to find someone to ask!

In my opinion, Office Basic Course should be moved to Level 1, or, at the very least, become a prerequisite for the promotion to 2nd Lieutenant!

Indeed!

Quite so! :clap:

Back when I joined in 1993, before I was even half-way through my "six-month-wonder" period for second looie, a huge package of books showed up in my mailbox.

It was the old ECI-13 course.  My unit CC had enrolled me as soon as he was able to.

Of course, I did not have to complete it for 2nd Lieutenant, but I do not think it would be the worst idea to require completion of OBC before getting butter-bars.

If anything, it might show just who is committed to working the programme and who isn't.

Again, I cite the USNSCC requirement that a member serve for at least a year before being considered for Ensign.