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New Rocketry modules?

Started by HGjunkie, January 06, 2014, 09:22:38 PM

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HGjunkie

I was perusing LMS and saw this at the very top:


Has there been a new addition to the Model Rocketry program recently?
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

arajca

Nothing on the AE or Model Rocketry pages about it. I had heard rumors for the program expanding, but nothing remotely trustworthy.

4fhoward

Found on national webpage titled "Advanced Rocketry"
https://www.capnhq.gov/CAP.AEDownloads.Web/Modules/DownloadFiles.aspx#

Columbia is mid-powered rocketry and Challenger is High power rocketry.


NC Hokie

Quote from: 4fhoward on January 12, 2014, 12:25:15 AM
Found on national webpage titled "Advanced Rocketry"
https://www.capnhq.gov/CAP.AEDownloads.Web/Modules/DownloadFiles.aspx#

Columbia is mid-powered rocketry and Challenger is High power rocketry.

Well, this is certainly not what I was expecting when I heard that NHQ was working to revamp the model rocketry program.  I'm very interested to see how the new phases are implemented, but my biggest worry is that cadets will now have to complete all five phases of the program to earn the pocket rocket, which will make doing so impossible for many due to the cost and logistics of mid- and high-power rocketry.

Time will tell.
NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

Graduated Squadron Commander
All Around Good Guy

MSchmid

I'm hoping that there will be some sort of MOA with the NAR allowing CAP cadets a free or reduced cost membership to the NAR,.

MacGruff

Quote from: MSchmid on January 12, 2014, 05:39:28 AM
I'm hoping that there will be some sort of MOA with the NAR allowing CAP cadets a free or reduced cost membership to the NAR,.

I certainly hope they arrange that as the culmination of the program IS certification by the NAR.

I currently run the model rocketry program in our Squadron and we have cadets working their way through the program on a monthly basis. we've had launch events so they can complete the hands-on portions and they seem to be having fun, although I have noted that there is a slowdown in participation. For the first stage last year, we had 14 cadets go through it, but only 8 participated in level 2 and of those, only 4 completed all the requirements and are now in level 3. We are hoping that this was simply because of time commitments and are changing the dates and times at which we offer it this year.

Although this publication looks like the "official" one, I hope it's only a draft as I found both typos and other mistakes in it. For an example of a typo, please look at page 4, where bullet 1 directs the cadet to "Log in one Services,"   Sheesh....    :'(


AlphaSigOU

Here's how the NAR dues break down:

Junior (15 and under) - $25 per year
Leader (16-20) - $25 per year
Senior (21+) - $62 per year

If pursuing a high-power cert, you have to certify with either NAR or Tripoli Rocketry Association, which requires membership in either organization. NAR and Tripoli are much smaller organizations; unlike AMA they probably won't reduce their dues any lower for junior and leader members.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

4fhoward

AlphaSigOU do you do high power rocketry?

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: 4fhoward on January 13, 2014, 04:47:13 PM
AlphaSigOU do you do high power rocketry?

I used to back about 25 years ago when I worked for Aerotech Consumer Aerospace (this was before the certification program was introduced). I was also a member of NAR and Tripoli at the time. (I'm back in the NAR (license #45040) but haven't gotten around to getting Level I high power certified.)
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

AlphaSigOU

I'm not finely tuned in on the AE side of the house but as far as I can tell the 'pocket rocket' and the 'Estes patch' is for completion of the first three levels of the model rocketry program; the two new levels are icing on the cake. Not every cadet/composite squadron has access to suitable fields for launching mid and high power rockets.The NAR section/Tripoli prefecture I belong to (HARA - Huntsville Area Rocketry Association) is involved in all levels of rocketry from low to high power.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

4fhoward

So, how much do you think it would cost someone to  complete the two new levels?

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: 4fhoward on January 13, 2014, 09:31:29 PM
So, how much do you think it would cost someone to  complete the two new levels?

Wild guess om my end:

$25 - NAR membership
Mid-power kit - anywhere from $25-$100
Mid-power motors - $25-$45
High-power kit - anywhere from $75-$200
High-power motors - $50-$100
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

blackbrandt

I figured I would butt in about the cost here.  I build high power rockets, and am TMP certified through the TRA. 

$25 - NAR membership
Correct. 


Mid-power kit - anywhere from $25-$100
A mid power kit costs a minimum of $30 if you buy in bulk.  If you want a mid power kit, the LOC weasel  and the http://www.wildmanrocketry.com/ProductDetail.aspx?product=3222 are the cheapest that I know of, at $40+.  Of course, if  you talked to the owner of Wildman Rocketry (Tim Lehr), or the owner of LOC precision (Jerry Appenzeller) you might be able to get a discount.  Both of them are pretty good about this stuff. 

Mid-power motors - $25-$45
Completely false.  The LARGEST mid power motor you can get (The Aerotech G80) costs about $27.  I get my motors at rocket launches, so I don't have to pay any hazmat.   I am ignoring the new estes mid power black powder engines.  These are junk.  Way overpriced for the impulse.  The most expensive mid power motor I know of is an Aerotech G80T single use motor.  You can launch a mid power motor for as low as $24 for 3 Aerotech RMS hobbyline E11J.  Average MPR reloadable is $12-15.  Of course, you do need a motor case (the Aerotech 24-40) for this.  However, getting a motor case pays for itself after about 5-7 launches.

High-power kit - anywhere from $75-$200
OK, here is the technically vs practically argument.  TECHNICALLY, you could use the mid power kits mentioned above for the high power flight.  HOWEVER, practically, they will disappear even on the smallest high power motor.  I put my LOC weasel up 3000 feet without even trying.  And it wasn't even an H motor.  Putting a moderate H in a small rocket like that will put it up EASILY 3500+ feet.  AKA, unless you use a GPS tracker, a mylar streamer, LOTS of tracking powder, and 30+ people with 20/20 vision, that thing is gone.  So, you probably want to get a true high power kit.  You want to get a rocket 2.5-4 inches in diameter, that weighs a decent amount, so it will only go up 2000 ft or so.  Trust me, this is still an amazing flight (it is also really cool because the motor sticks around for a while close to the ground).  These run about $60 to $130.  I am probably going to use a 6 foot tall, 5 pound full fiberglass rocket.  Even with a J motor in it, it will only go to about 5000 ft.  However, it is much bigger, and I use a method called Dual Deployment to bring the rocket down close to the pad.  I am also getting a GPS tracker, and I have a 120dB siren that gets activated at apogee.  There is also a 20 foot long bright red nylon streamer deployed at apogee.  Do you see what I am doing?  I am trying to minimize the chance of losing a rocket.  Reason being, my rocket cost $120 just for the kit.  That doesn't include the $10 in epoxy, the $50+ in random nuts, bolts, all thread, and eyebolts, the $30 parachute, the $40 in shock cords, and a $90 altimeter.  And the countless hours of work I put into it.  Not to mention, a lost rocket means a failed certification flight. 

High-power motors - $50-$100
This is the worst estimate of all.  The MOST EXPENSIVE motor that you would launch (except for one, which is a single use I motor from Aerotech at $110), is a 38mm CTI 5 grain I297, at $55. Most likely, though, you would not be using a motor like that.  2 reasons.  One, any rocket on that motor would clear 3K.  Two, you need a motor casing for this.   Standard small H motor costs $20-25.



So, about $160 gives you a mid power kit, a mid power motor, an NAR membership, a High power motor, and a high power kit.  Not bad.



C/MSgt Matt Fletcher

RALEIGH WAKE!!

rocket1

Regarding costs--ours was the original unit of implementation (SER-FL-267) as well as the creator of the blueprint upon which the national program is based.  We have accomplished the advanced program with the same rocket for both Stages 4 and 5 (LOC/Precision Graduator).  The rocket flies well on F, G, and very small H motors (CTI Pro29 H90).  The cost breakdown is as follows: 
$50 Rocket
$15 Mid Power Motor (single use)
$22 High Power Motor (reload)
$25 NAR Membership
$112 TOTAL
$38 Motor Casing (one-time cost—unit may purchase to be shared by all cadets)

Gary A. Dahlke, Maj, CAP
Deputy Director, AE, Florida Wing

blackbrandt

Most rocketry vendors (I know my vendor, Ken Allen from Performance Hobbies does this), have a "Certification Special".  This is essentially where if you do a cert flight, you buy the motor and get the respective casing free.  Not to mention, if you watch, most vendors will have clearance sales on some motors.  I also buy motors from an online "Rocketry Forum".  Some people there sell motors for cheap that they never are going to use.  For example, I found an Aerotech H180 ($23 MRSP) selling for $10.  So, if you shop around some, you can definitely save a few dollars. 


Also, look at an Aerotech 24-40 casing.  It is about $40.  However, the reloads are MUCH cheaper.  They pay for themselves after approximately 7 flights.  I have one, and I LOVE the reload options.  Also, you get a little bit more involved in the rocket.  You are not just shoving a random motor in the back of the rocket.  You know that the motor was assembled by YOU.  I don't know about anyone else here, but I love the extra involvement in assembling motors. 


Google "Certification Special", or skim through these links:
http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?110-Rocketry-Resources


You will find a good deal somewhere.  :)


Adios!

Matt
C/MSgt Matt Fletcher

RALEIGH WAKE!!

Garibaldi

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 13, 2014, 07:58:13 PM
I'm not finely tuned in on the AE side of the house but as far as I can tell the 'pocket rocket' and the 'Estes patch' is for completion of the first three levels of the model rocketry program; the two new levels are icing on the cake. Not every cadet/composite squadron has access to suitable fields for launching mid and high power rockets.The NAR section/Tripoli prefecture I belong to (HARA - Huntsville Area Rocketry Association) is involved in all levels of rocketry from low to high power.

There's a patch named after me? I feel so honored. Not only do I have a trucking company, a park, and a model rocket company, I've been honored with a patch!
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

arajca

Quote from: Garibaldi on March 16, 2014, 01:14:24 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 13, 2014, 07:58:13 PM
I'm not finely tuned in on the AE side of the house but as far as I can tell the 'pocket rocket' and the 'Estes patch' is for completion of the first three levels of the model rocketry program; the two new levels are icing on the cake. Not every cadet/composite squadron has access to suitable fields for launching mid and high power rockets.The NAR section/Tripoli prefecture I belong to (HARA - Huntsville Area Rocketry Association) is involved in all levels of rocketry from low to high power.

There's a patch named after me? I feel so honored. Not only do I have a trucking company, a park, and a model rocket company, I've been honored with a patch!
A park? If you're talking about Estes Park in CO, it's a town, not a park. Although it may have a park in it.

collin20

I hope they do advance the stages further because rocketry is AMAZING and should be expanded to higher elevations! Plus Rocketry is a very exciting program that all squadrons should try to put on.  8) :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: ;D :clap: ;D


Cadets lead the way!

Huey Driver

My CACs have been working on this for a bit. While there's a whole new world of opportunities in high-power rocketry, we killed off a proposal to exploit these opportunities. Instead, we decided that we should refine the current program to make it accessible to more cadets, and completed in a better manner, ...and some other details.

From the members responding in this post, I'd assume that y'all would want CAP to pursue this advanced rocket. Cadets - bring it to your CACs, that's what they exist for.
With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right...

blackbrandt

C/MSgt Matt Fletcher

RALEIGH WAKE!!