Military Academies

[SARDOC]

Coast Guard accepts applications from USMMA grads, as well. Acceptance used to be close to automatic, and although that's no longer the case, a solid applicant will have a very good chance of being accepted.

True, I've seen USMMA grads go into the Army and the Air Force as well.  It's just a matter of applying to the service of your choice and selling them on it.

[bosshawk]

I';ll have to take exception to one of Dogboys comments about the quality of the education at a service academy.  If it is so sub-par, why does West Point rank fourth in the nation in Rhodes Scholarships?  Behind the likes of Yale, Harvard and Princeton, if I remember correctly.  How many of your students take 50% of their classes in STEM even if they are majoring in English or languages.  How many of your students majoring in Engineering are required to take three semesters of a foreign language?  I could go on and on, having been an Admissions rep at USMA for over 30 years.

[flyboy53]

I have friends who are interested in joining CAP (aged between 12-15) and have aspirations of going onto a Military Academy, i.e. West Point, Annapolis, Air Force, etc.  Does anyone know if or what benefits there are from being in CAP that lend to getting into an academy?  Does anyone know of examples of where being in CAP helped?  Thanks!

I'm sure I'm a minority opinion here but I always tell prospective academy applicants to think long and hard about whether the academy lifestyle is really for them. It's four long years of intense chickens__t and the education is really not as good as one would receive at a high-quality university.

Before financial aid became widely available (the late 1960s), the military academies were chosen by smart, poor kids who had few alternatives. In contrast, these days at the college I teach at (which is top tier) if you get in, and your family income is under $100,000, you'll get a complete free ride so the academies don't have the draw they used to.

However,  if you want to fly in the military, except the Army, there are so few slots that academy graduation is practically the only route. Also, of course, if you want to make the military your career, being a "ring-knocker" yields tremendous advantages.

And I'm going to add another exception to these comments. The standards at any of the military academies are vastly higher than standard colleges -- the grade point average necessary to graduate at a military academy is what I had to maintain to earn a master's degree. I would match them up one for one to any Ivy League graduate and I can guarantee you that the Academy grad will be more motivated and determined in any field of work.

As far as flying? Not all military academy grads want to fly. I've known quite a few Air Force Academy graduates who preferred things like Security Forces or Tactical Air Control teams and then entered things like the FBI or other federal law enforcement agencies following their service commitment. As far as the flying thing. You want to fly, fine, keep your grades  up because those slots go to the cream of the crop. However, not everyone wants to be a pilot or can qualify for it. There are plenty of other rated slots to chose from.

Certainly, think long and hard about ANY college education -- whether, private, public (state or local community college) or service academy -- but also remember that you may also not meet the cut even a public school so chose wisely.

[Walkman]

Regarding flying slots in general, is the difficulty spread evenly across the airframes or are we talking just fighters? Would one have an easier time getting into a helo spot vs. F16 or tankers vs. helos?

Also, I know that army helo drivers are WOs, so it would seem to me that if one wanted to fly the Blackhawk, trying for West Point would be the wrong track. Are rotary wing pilots in the other branches the same? I know the AF doesn't have WOs, so it would seem it one wants to fly a helo, shooting for the Academy would still be a good idea because you need to be an officer.

(This in on my mind as one of my squadron mates is in the process of shifting from A-10 crew chief in the AFR to Army Blackhawk pilot. He starts WOS, SERE then pilot training next week.)

[Flying Pig]

It depends in what your goals are. Many people are interested in the career track of being a commissioned officer.   WO's do not have that. They do not hold command positions.  Pay, benefits, etc all come into play. In the Army I believe commissioned officers can resign their commission at or prior to the rank of Captain and become a WO3 if they want to continue flying vs moving on to command positions. (I think)   Where a WO would need to start at 2LT and go to OCS like any other newly commissioned officer. In addition, there are plenty of commissioned Army pilots.  Just the majority are WOs. After about the rank of Major you will see officers start to step back from flying and stepping more into command roles vs flying roles.  Now, havnt done any of the above just whats been relayed to me over the years. 

[Tim Day]

Regarding flying slots in general, is the difficulty spread evenly across the airframes or are we talking just fighters? Would one have an easier time getting into a helo spot vs. F16 or tankers vs. helos?

Typically the selection of platform type is done at the end of primary flight training. Sometimes it's by class rank in direct order, sometimes they mix it up using a quality spread (top grad chooses, then 5th, then 9th, etc). The Navy has a "carrier cut-off" meaning only the top half get to fly something with a tailhook.

Keep in mind the AF is selecting drone pilots straight out of their commissioning source.   

[bosshawk]

Just to muddy the waters, about 100-120 graduates of West Point are commissioned in the Aviation Branch each year: they all go to flight school and graduate as helicopter pilots.  Later, if they desire and the needs of the Army concur, they can transition to fixed wing aircraft.  The Army does have a few jets, but those pilots are all cream of the crop and few and far between.  I sat next to an Army Captain last Sat night and he flies RC-12s and is a 2009 grad of West Point: thus, he was selected pretty early to be a fixed wing pilot.  He is also rated in rotary wing.  You are correct: the majority of Army helicopter pilots are Warrants.

[UH60guy]

You are correct: the majority of Army helicopter pilots are Warrants.

Exactly. Though I should point out it's also a different role in the Army for warrants vs. commissioned officers. For warrants, their main job is to be a technical expert in their craft- in this case being a pilot. Commissioned officers are leaders first. Day one out of flight school, they'll typically be put in charge of about 20 Soldiers and five helicopters, and will still be expected to be proficient pilots.

Commissioned aviation officers can get other jobs as well though- I didn't fly for the first 6 months after flight school, when I was put in charge of the refuel/rearm platoon because we had too many lieutenants in the unit. Although I could argue it made me more well rounded later on too. I've seen it the other way too- I did get plenty of combat flight time while I was a maintenance platoon leader, though coordinating scheduled and unscheduled maintenance was my primary duty.

Edit: Going back to Flying Pig's comments- switching from Officer to Warrant is exceedingly rare, and it takes an awful lot to convince your boss to let you resign your commission. I've only seen it done like that when someone can't get on the promotion list.

Basically, if you're looking at Army aviation, ask yourself: Do I want to be "just" a pilot? If so, that's great- The Warrant Officer track is for you. Later in your career you'll specialize as a safety officer, instructor pilot, maintenance test pilot, or tactical operations officer, but in any specialization, being a pilot is your #1 job. Again for commissioned officers, you'll be given leadership roles and responsibility (and command) from day one throughout your career, though you're not always guaranteed being a line pilot is where you'll get your hours. You could be a headquarters company commander, but still be tasked to meet your flight minimums and fly missions.

[SarDragon]

In Naval Aviation, just about everyone who goes to flight school is a commissioned officer, with a four-year college degree.

[SunDog]

I think all Marine pilots are commissioned officers; that said, not ALL officers have undergrad degrees.

If you're walking in off the street to fly, without a degree, Go Army. If a commision is in reach, all other sevices.

Also, consider the Reserves, especially USAF; they fly the majority of USAF flight hours, or did the last time I looked, have the more experinced crews (many fled the AD for civilan jobs), and you can go directly into the Reserves from off the street, get commisioned, and on to UPT. The whole evolution will take about two-plus years, and you're full time for the whole time - pay, benes, etc.

You will have to find a unit that wants you,  so shop around.

[dogboy]

I';ll have to take exception to one of Dogboys comments about the quality of the education at a service academy.  If it is so sub-par, why does West Point rank fourth in the nation in Rhodes Scholarships?  Behind the likes of Yale, Harvard and Princeton, if I remember correctly.  How many of your students take 50% of their classes in STEM even if they are majoring in English or languages.  How many of your students majoring in Engineering are required to take three semesters of a foreign language?  I could go on and on, having been an Admissions rep at USMA for over 30 years.

The reason that the military academies get a larger than their share of Rhodes Scholarships is that academic achievement is only one of the four criteria for the award.

Here they are:

    Literary and scholastic attainments;
    Energy to use one's talents to the fullest, as exemplified by fondness for and success in sports;
    Truth, courage, devotion to duty, sympathy for and protection of the weak, kindliness, unselfishness and fellowship;
    Moral force of character and instincts to lead, and to take an interest in one's fellow beings.

Perhaps most important is the equal emphasis on sports. At most big-time universities, the athletes in major sports are basically in a farm team for the pros. They have special classes with low standards as well as tutors to push them through. I don't know which player the famous quote refers to "he could do anything with a football except autograph it" but it's representative of most big-time college athletes. Military academy athletes do get certain privileges such as tutors but they must take the same curriculum as the other students. Consequently they combine the attributes of scholar and athlete better than almost anywhere else.

Of course this explains why the the academies don't play major sports schools. Here's the USMA schedule

http://www.goarmysports.com/sports/m-footbl/sched/army-m-footbl-sched.html

which includes such football powers as Ball State and Eastern Michigan.

The other criteria such as devotion to duty and instincts to lead are also well suited to the military academy graduate.

So, I stand by my statement that the military academies do not provide the quality of education that a first-rate university does. That they receive a disproportionate number of Rhodes Scholarships does not prove otherwise.

[sentence redacted - mod]

[Private Investigator]

The reason that ...

Dude we get it. You do not like military academies. Lets move on because just like the person who swears the cup is half empty, I'll swear it is half full, saavy   

[dogboy]

The reason that ...

Dude we get it. You do not like military academies. Lets move on because just like the person who swears the cup is half empty, I'll swear it is half full, saavy   

No, you are incorrect and I don't appreciate you misquoting my posts. If you cannot contribute something constructive, don't post at all. Military academies are the right choice for a few, just a few.

[SarDragon]

Well, I got the same impression from your post.

[dogboy]

I have friends who are interested in joining CAP (aged between 12-15) and have aspirations of going onto a Military Academy, i.e. West Point, Annapolis, Air Force, etc.  Does anyone know if or what benefits there are from being in CAP that lend to getting into an academy?  Does anyone know of examples of where being in CAP helped?  Thanks!

I'm sure I'm a minority opinion here but I always tell prospective academy applicants to think long and hard about whether the academy lifestyle is really for them. It's four long years of intense chickens__t and the education is really not as good as one would receive at a high-quality university.

And I'm going to add another exception to these comments. The standards at any of the military academies are vastly higher than standard colleges --

Flyboy1 says: "And I'm going to add another exception to these comments. The standards at any of the military academies are vastly higher than standard colleges"

Flyboy1 I do not appreciate being misquoted. I said ".... and the education is really not as good as one would receive at a high-quality university" not a "standard college" as you possibly attended.

[CAPSGT]

Since this topic has derailed into a pure and simple fight to see who can insult who more, I'm locking this.  Chill out guys, watch the language, and take a step back before posting something heated before it leads to suspensions/bans.