CAP Kilt

[lordmonar]

I did not tell a cadet to ignore the rules....I told him to take it to his chain of command.

I know exactly what the USAF would say about a kilt.

"Hey that's cool" 

End of story.

This of course is assuming that the kilt was worn where appropriate.   

A member of a CAP honor guard for a funeral, or a special event like a dining out, wing conference banquet.
No one is going to say "hey! you can't do that"....because it happens ALL the time in the USAF.

Band uniforms are not in 36-2903, Thunder Bird uniforms are not 36-2903.  The kilt that the USAF pipe and drums wear now is not in the AFI.

So...please don't try to question my core values.....thank you very much.

[Tim Day]

Cadet Staff Sergeant Britton,

As you can see, there is a wide range of responses from senior members ranging from "don't bother, why ask for anything special" to "just do it". There is also a wide range of apparent maturity levels evident in some of the responses to responses (remember, you can't really tell tone of voice via this media). That's normal, whether you're in CAP, the military, or industry. What's important to you is how will you handle this?

At a minimum, it sounds like your Squadron CC has tacitly approved your wearing of the kilt at squadron functions. While it's debatable whether he has that authority, you're not doing something that will hurt anyone or damage anyone's property, so you're probably sufficiently "covered".

The next step depends on your view of leadership, and whether you decide to take this on as a leadership challenge. This is an opportunity for "leadership from below." Seeing that you're in NER, there's a strong possibility that there are other CAP members who would appreciate the tradition wearing of an AF kilt would represent. Maybe they just haven't bothered to request authorization to wear the kilt. Maybe they're afraid of the chain of command, or have no hope in CAP bureacracy - there are always plenty of excuses for those who don't want to try.

In my opinion, if you do the research, contact an AF unit that wears the kilt for some background (and maybe support), and route an action memorandum up your chain of command, you may benefit more members than just yourself. I'd be surprised if you couldn't find a senior member in your unit, wing, or region to mentor you through this process. I think one of your senior members already chimed in on this thread and mentioned your skill level, etc.

If you can't find someone, PM me (inform your chain of command) and I'd be happy to review / comment on the request package.

[cadetbritton]

Cadet Staff Sergeant Britton,

As you can see, there is a wide range of responses from senior members ranging from "don't bother, why ask for anything special" to "just do it". There is also a wide range of apparent maturity levels evident in some of the responses to responses (remember, you can't really tell tone of voice via this media). That's normal, whether you're in CAP, the military, or industry. What's important to you is how will you handle this?

At a minimum, it sounds like your Squadron CC has tacitly approved your wearing of the kilt at squadron functions. While it's debatable whether he has that authority, you're not doing something that will hurt anyone or damage anyone's property, so you're probably sufficiently "covered".

The next step depends on your view of leadership, and whether you decide to take this on as a leadership challenge. This is an opportunity for "leadership from below." Seeing that you're in NER, there's a strong possibility that there are other CAP members who would appreciate the tradition wearing of an AF kilt would represent. Maybe they just haven't bothered to request authorization to wear the kilt. Maybe they're afraid of the chain of command, or have no hope in CAP bureacracy - there are always plenty of excuses for those who don't want to try.

In my opinion, if you do the research, contact an AF unit that wears the kilt for some background (and maybe support), and route an action memorandum up your chain of command, you may benefit more members than just yourself. I'd be surprised if you couldn't find a senior member in your unit, wing, or region to mentor you through this process. I think one of your senior members already chimed in on this thread and mentioned your skill level, etc.

If you can't find someone, PM me (inform your chain of command) and I'd be happy to review / comment on the request package.

Thank you the help Sir.  I have been talking to senior members in my squadron and my squadron commander and I believe that we are building a case and are going to go to the NH Wing Commander for his approval.

Respectfully,
C/SSgt Britton

[Eclipse]

A member of a CAP honor guard for a funeral, or a special event like a dining out, wing conference banquet.
No one is going to say "hey! you can't do that"....because it happens ALL the time in the USAF.

Why would we care >what< the USAF does in this regard?  They do and wear lots of things we're not allowed to even ask about.

For starters, they >have< an official Tartan, and I guarantee some random, not-authorized airman, is not going to show up wearing a kilt
to some random activity just because he though it would be "kool".

A kilt is not part of our uniform, period.  If it needs to be, send it up, but this is not something that can be authorized locally because it's be "cool", and the idea
that id not only could be, but probably will, speaks volumes about the lack of knowledge and respect many of our leaders have for the regs.

They are treated as sacrosanct or flexible on the whim of the commander.  Here's an idea, why don't we all just try "following them" for say, a year or so,
without filter, ICL, or "local interpretation" and see how that works out, because it would appear that in the history of CAP, that is one option that
has never been tried on a national level.

[lordmonar]

HAHAHA

I thought that the reason why you keep pushing the "follow the rules" line is because you don't want to piss off the USAF.

I will pull that line when....as you say NHQ starts putting their money where their mouth is. 

[Eclipse]

I honestly don't care about "pissing the USAF off", what I care about is building a culture of performance and expectation instead
of lowest common denominator and "you're lucky I showed up at all".

Following the regs, as written, would be a big part of that, and at some point our performance might reach a level where we didn't' have to walk on eggshells
with anyone.

[Private Investigator]

OK, there's a USN tartan. Who wears it?

Only the manliest of sailors. So I am guessing Marines   

:clap:
Now that's funny!

I am still having fun at my children's expense, two of them are sailors   

[Storm Chaser]

I did not tell a cadet to ignore the rules....I told him to take it to his chain of command.

You said and I quote:

This is one of those.......don't worry about it and just coordinate it locally....things.

You want to have a piper for some special occasion......go for it.   Coordinate it with your local commander and go with it.  Please remember to keep it in good taste and moderation is always a good thing.

Since uniforms are NOT a local matter and unit commanders have no saying beyond what's approved in the regulations or supplements, you were basically telling him "as long as your commander says it's ok, then you can ignore the regulations". That's breaking the rules. Period. Dot.

I know exactly what the USAF would say about a kilt.

"Hey that's cool" 

End of story.

This of course is assuming that the kilt was worn where appropriate.

You claim to know a lot about the Air Force, but you forget that many of us ARE in the Air Force too. Half of the stuff you say are simply incorrect.

A member of a CAP honor guard for a funeral, or a special event like a dining out, wing conference banquet.
No one is going to say "hey! you can't do that"....because it happens ALL the time in the USAF.

Just because some are ignorant of the regulations or decide to ignore them all together and others decide to look the other way, doesn't make it right. Again, you're telling this cadet to break the rules because no one is going to care. That's wrong!

Band uniforms are not in 36-2903, Thunder Bird uniforms are not 36-2903.  The kilt that the USAF pipe and drums wear now is not in the AFI.

You've been out of the Air Force for a while. There are many uniforms that didn't used to be in AFI 36-2903, that now are. But you're right that many special uniforms are not in this AFI. They are either authorized in different AFIs, MAJCOM Supplements, ICLs or other publications. Air Force personnel can't just wear whatever they want, whenever they want.

So...please don't try to question my core values.....thank you very much.

You know the regulations very well. If you choose to ignore them when they suit you, then I don't have to question you core values. Your words speak for themselves.

Don't start wearing it everywhere.

The purists and Regulation Lawyers will scream bloody murder.   So just ignore them.

Let the flames begin!

This last part of your post leads me to believe that you just wanted to steer things up with your comments; to start a fight. That seems to be your style in many posts.

[JeffDG]

Following the regs, as written, would be a big part of that, and at some point our performance might reach a level where we didn't' have to walk on eggshells
with anyone.

Tone-at-the-top drives a lot of this.  I have an e-mail from two national staff officers saying "Don't worry about that reg, you don't have to do that." and that AFTER I made the point that they did not have the authority to waive the application of said regulation.

[lordmonar]

Okay.....last lap around this track.

CAP KILTS........and only CAP KILTS.....making some assumptions here.  Cadet Bagpiper wants to do some piping at a place and time where piping is appropriate.

Cadet Bagpiper.....being a hard core bagpiper......would think it would be nifty to wear the USAF kilt while piping at said appropriate place and time.

My advice......and only advice was for him to coordinate with his commander and do it.

No one said to ignore regulations....just to ignore the flamers and naysayers here on CAPTALK.   We can argue all day long about "But the commander does not have the authority"..........and that is true......but in this application...within the scope of what we are talking about.......it is not really worth arguing about.

There is a time and play and way to violate regulations.   And yes I am telling him that if the commander okays it.......it is okay....and it is breaking the regulations......that is one of the reasons why we have commanders.

As for me personally.......22 years in the USAF, retired from AD Oct 2008 returned to AD April 2009 (for a week ).  Work for the USAF as a contractor....so I'm still it the loop of many things.....still read and live by AFI's.  My CAP unit meets on base....so I have vested interest in keeping us on the good side of the USAF.  Work closely with CAP-RAPs with the GFW program so I have an inside pipe line into what CAP-USAF thinks about our uniform issues (though even in the CAP-USAF pipe line they keep their opinions close to the vest).

If I provide information about the USAF that is incorrect, by all means correct me.  Things do change from time to time.  :0

I am a realist...and a situational leader.  The regulations suck, also no one is going to be able to write a regulation that covers ever and all situations.  Hence the reason why we have leaders. 

So....I'm back to begging on this one.....and have nothing further say.

[Storm Chaser]

There is a time and play and way to violate regulations.   And yes I am telling him that if the commander okays it.......it is okay....and it is breaking the regulations......that is one of the reasons why we have commanders.

I don't mean to disregard or disrespect your military experience and service. But you were never a commander, never trained or prepared to be one, and never faced the possibility of being appointed one. And yet you say, "that is one of the reasons why we have commanders" when it comes to deciding whether we need to "violate regulations". I'm sorry, but that's not correct and it doesn't add up.

I never questioned your integrity or military service, just your advice. I don't want to beat this horse to death, but if it's ok to disregard regulations in one instance, then it would be fine to do so in another... and another... and so on. Where does it end?

I appreciate your contribution to the Air Force, CAP and our nation. I respect what you've done. But I respectfully disagree with some of your views and I'm concerned with some of the advice you've given our young cadets. In the real world, when you break the rules there are consequences. Some are big, some are small, but there are there nonetheless.

[lordmonar]

Again.....there is a time and place and way to violate regulations.

Where does it end?

That is why we have leaders and commanders. 

22 years of active service....I have willfully, knowingly violated regulations....with malice aforethought.

Yes.....there are consequences......and yes cadets are too young to be sticking their necks out.

That is why I told him to take it up with his chain of command.

I don't know how that advice is bad....it is exactly what you are supposed to do when what you want/need/must do violates what the regulations allow/permit/suggest/forbid you do.

You are right....I was never a commander in the USAF.....but I advised them of the implications on the mission and regulations concerning my area of expertise.......and we pushed on and got the mission done.

I don't know your experience with the AD USAF.......but many a time I have been told "Noted.....Proceed"......just as often as I have been told "No....let's find another way to do this".

[Eclipse]

Again.....there is a time and place and way to violate regulations.

No, there isn't.

And you cannot compare CAP to the USAF in this regard.  The average CAP commander has neither the authority, nor the training or experience to be expected to
decide when the regulations don't mean what they say.

This attitude is what gets people in trouble.

[Fubar]

This attitude is what gets people in trouble.

This attitude should get people in trouble, but doesn't seem to.

[a2capt]

..which is why it continues to occur.