CAP Kilt

[cadetbritton]

Hello,
I am a Bagpiper in CAP.  I've been in CAP for almost a year and I've been piping for almost ten years now.  I've been looking into kilts with CAP uniforms and there is nothing in CAPM 39-1 on kilts so I was wondering what the regulation might be and if there isn't who is allowed to make the regulations for squadron bagpipers wearing kilts?

V/R
C/SSgt Britton

[Eclipse]

Submit the suggestion for the change to 39-1 through your chain of command.

[SarDragon]

According to the only thing governing CAP uniforms, CAPM 39-1, there is no provision for kilts. They aren't even something on the list of stuff the wing commander can authorize on an optional basis. i do know two CAP members who have worn kilts, with the AF tartan, to CAP events, and they looked great. The wing commander was in attendance both times, so there was at least tacit approval.

This is something you would have to discuss with your chain of command.

[lordmonar]

IIRC there is an unofficial CAP tartan or maybe it is just the unofficial USAF tartan.

I remember a discussion about kilts either here or on Cadet Stuff.

As a cool thing to do once and a while....I would not get bent out of shape if you wore a kilt.....as already pointed out....bring it up to your chain for approval.

Found a historical use of CAP Kilt  http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/1951_FFC3C27AD1D59.pdf

[PHall]

IIRC there is an unofficial CAP tartan or maybe it is just the unofficial USAF tartan.

I remember a discussion about kilts either here or on Cadet Stuff.

As a cool thing to do once and a while....I would not get bent out of shape if you wore a kilt.....as already pointed out....bring it up to your chain for approval.

Found a historical use of CAP Kilt  http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/1951_FFC3C27AD1D59.pdf

There is an official USAF Tartan. It was created for the Pipe Band that was part of the Band of the Air Force Reserve.

[That Anonymous Guy]

I actually read just a few weeks ago that there was a CAP pipes and drums (maybe just pipes) band and they wore kilts. Try bringing theirs back.

[GroundHawg]

Hello,
I am a Bagpiper in CAP.  I've been in CAP for almost a year and I've been piping for almost ten years now.  I've been looking into kilts with CAP uniforms and there is nothing in CAPM 39-1 on kilts so I was wondering what the regulation might be and if there isn't who is allowed to make the regulations for squadron bagpipers wearing kilts?

V/R
C/SSgt Britton

Once you turn 17 (if you haven't already) you can join the USCG Auxiliary and try out for the USCG Pipe Band. Members of the Auxiliary perform alongside reservists and active duty members.

http://www.uscgpipeband.org/

[Dracosbane]

I've thought about a kilt as a member.  The best idea I had about it (aside from tartan kilts for pipe bands) was the Utillikilt Mocker in heather grey.  They look like and are made from similar material to Dockers slacks that make for great polo/aviator and grey corporates.

With the 39-1 being reviewed, could we suggest kilts as an alternative along with the upcoming tac-pants?

[Critical AOA]

Kilts.... and here I thought that the constant yearning for ABUs was about as ridiculous as uniform discussions could get.

[Dracosbane]

Forgive me, I forgot the 

[cadetbritton]

How would I request a change to 39-1?  Would I need the support of a Wing or Region commander? Also the NER commander is British so he might be on my side.  To contact the Region Commander do I need to go up my chain-of-command or because I am making a special request for his support can I just contact him directly?  Since 39-1 is under review should I do this ASAP?  And just so everyone knows I would be requesting this as an alternate to Blues for a Squadron's Bagpiper.

C/SSgt Britton

[Garibaldi]

How would I request a change to 39-1?  Would I need the support of a Wing or Region commander? Also the NER commander is British so he might be on my side.  To contact the Region Commander do I need to go up my chain-of-command or because I am making a special request for his support can I just contact him directly?  Since 39-1 is under review should I do this ASAP?  And just so everyone knows I would be requesting this as an alternate to Blues for a Squadron's Bagpiper.

C/SSgt Britton

Just out of curiosity...why? If it's just to create an exception for a kilt, it may take years for the NUC to study the feasibility of such a change. The way I see it, you could form a group on your own, outside of CAP, and offer your services to the unit or other organizations that may desire your services. Taking it to the NUC (that's National Uniform Committee, btw) would be a long and arduous process. Contacting the region commander for something of this nature would require that you at least notify your unit, group(if applicable), and wing commander IN THAT ORDER. In fact, your unit CC would probably pass the request up him/herself.

[cadetbritton]

Thank you Sir, I already play in a Bagpipe band and when I joined CAP I wanted to be my squadron's piper.  I march and play with my drill team and I am the Honor Guard Piper.  I know the USAF has a pipe band and I already contacted them to see if it was possible to be issued a uniform but they wouldn't be able to.  CAP is part of the USAF and the USAF authorized a uniform with a kilt for their bagpipers so I believe we should follow in the foot steps of the USAF (like we do with all of our other uniforms) and authorize a uniform for our pipers.  Could this be handled at the Wind level?  Not changing 39-1 (because lets face it I wouldn't be a cadet once they pass it if they even do) but making an exception/change to the uniform just for me so I could wear a kilt with the blues dress shirt, class-a jacket, and usaf tie etc to preform functions for my squadron/wing?

V/R
C/SSgt Britton

[sab163]

my squadron had a bag pipe band and did wear kilts lets see if i can post the photo correctly

[SJFedor]

Thank you Sir, I already play in a Bagpipe band and when I joined CAP I wanted to be my squadron's piper.  I march and play with my drill team and I am the Honor Guard Piper.  I know the USAF has a pipe band and I already contacted them to see if it was possible to be issued a uniform but they wouldn't be able to.  CAP is part of the USAF and the USAF authorized a uniform with a kilt for their bagpipers so I believe we should follow in the foot steps of the USAF (like we do with all of our other uniforms) and authorize a uniform for our pipers.  Could this be handled at the Wind level?  Not changing 39-1 (because lets face it I wouldn't be a cadet once they pass it if they even do) but making an exception/change to the uniform just for me so I could wear a kilt with the blues dress shirt, class-a jacket, and usaf tie etc to preform functions for my squadron/wing?

V/R
C/SSgt Britton

You want NHQ to issue a uniform exemption just for you?!?!? Good luck with that.

Is there some reason your normal service dress can't be worn while you play bagpipes?

No offense buddy, but it sounds like you just want to stand out and look special. Let it go, wear the uniform as prescribed.

[Eclipse]

but making an exception/change to the uniform just for me so I could wear a kilt with the blues dress shirt, class-a jacket, and usaf tie etc to preform functions for my squadron/wing?

No.  However with that said it wouldn't be the first time.

[Eclipse]

my squadron had a bag pipe band and did wear kilts lets see if i can post the photo correctly

OK, how does this work?  Was this a bunch of pipers who decided to start a unit, or who were all from the same school or something like that?
The odds of having that many pipers in a wing, let alone a single unit, by the random chance of typical recruiting, are staggering.

The airplane decal on the drum is a nice touch, though I doubt 3M intended it for use on musical instruments

[sab163]

no idea it was before my time in the squadron, this was early 90's i believe the squadron has been around since 1958

[Eclipse]

no idea it was before my time in the squadron, this was early 90's i believe the squadron has been around since 1958

Oh internet, you never fail to provide...

http://tomchildsbagpiper.com/wordpress/?page_id=7
"I started to learn the bagpipes while I was cadet in the Civil Air Patrol in Brockton, MA. The CAP cadets had a pipe band largely because we were inspired by the US Air Force Pipe band. I decided to enlist as a cadet, and then marched in to the pipe band because it seemed like it would be fun. And it came the opportunity to travel and participate in parades and all kinds of special events. The band was a kid's band and not really all that authentic. We played poorly-made instruments and wore home-made kilts or some that had been handed down a few generations. I liked the pipes okay, but at the time I never imagined it would become my life's passion.

The CAP Pipe Band eventually became the Colonial Pipers Pipe Band, and we traveled to Toronto in 1975 to the Canadian Nation Exhibition's World Scottish Festival. That's where my career in piping career really began. I was 11 years old and that is where I first heard the bagpipes in all their glory. I saw people from all walks of life and at all ages playing the bagpipes, each wearing their own uniform and tartan. I was truly impressed, and I knew right then and there that the bagpipes were my calling. I got to hear the best pipers and the best pipe bands in the world at the time."

[Eclipse]

Also this:


From here: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13287.0

[Private Investigator]

Interesting.

Actually wearing a glengarry with the aviator shirt combo I believe would be rather smashing indeed. 

[cadetbritton]

Thank you Sir, I already play in a Bagpipe band and when I joined CAP I wanted to be my squadron's piper.  I march and play with my drill team and I am the Honor Guard Piper.  I know the USAF has a pipe band and I already contacted them to see if it was possible to be issued a uniform but they wouldn't be able to.  CAP is part of the USAF and the USAF authorized a uniform with a kilt for their bagpipers so I believe we should follow in the foot steps of the USAF (like we do with all of our other uniforms) and authorize a uniform for our pipers.  Could this be handled at the Wind level?  Not changing 39-1 (because lets face it I wouldn't be a cadet once they pass it if they even do) but making an exception/change to the uniform just for me so I could wear a kilt with the blues dress shirt, class-a jacket, and usaf tie etc to preform functions for my squadron/wing?

V/R
C/SSgt Britton

You want NHQ to issue a uniform exemption just for you?!?!? Good luck with that.

Is there some reason your normal service dress can't be worn while you play bagpipes?

No offense buddy, but it sounds like you just want to stand out and look special. Let it go, wear the uniform as prescribed.

Well if the Air Force has a kilt, the Navy has a kilt, the Marines has a kilt, and the Coast Guard has a kilt.  Based on that I don't believe that what I am saying is outrageous.  Seriously though can this be handled at the wing level if I work with Wing to design a pipers uniform for New Hampshire that incorporates the blues uniform so its still partially in regs?? 

Also to the Man with the photos of the CAP bagpipe band, What tartan was the kilt that you guys were wearing.  From what I could see it looked like the Blackwatch (Canadian Reserves) tartan.  The Blackwatch tartan is what I was thinking of recommending to Wing as the NH CAP kilt (because of the color not because of being Canadian)

V/R
C/SSgt Britton

[MSG Mac]

my squadron had a bag pipe band and did wear kilts lets see if i can post the photo correctly

The guy with the drum and leopard skin later became MAWG Commander. RIP Ed.

[Critical AOA]

Thank you Sir, I already play in a Bagpipe band and when I joined CAP I wanted to be my squadron's piper.  I march and play with my drill team and I am the Honor Guard Piper.  I know the USAF has a pipe band and I already contacted them to see if it was possible to be issued a uniform but they wouldn't be able to.  CAP is part of the USAF and the USAF authorized a uniform with a kilt for their bagpipers so I believe we should follow in the foot steps of the USAF (like we do with all of our other uniforms) and authorize a uniform for our pipers.  Could this be handled at the Wind level?  Not changing 39-1 (because lets face it I wouldn't be a cadet once they pass it if they even do) but making an exception/change to the uniform just for me so I could wear a kilt with the blues dress shirt, class-a jacket, and usaf tie etc to preform functions for my squadron/wing?

V/R
C/SSgt Britton

You want NHQ to issue a uniform exemption just for you?!?!? Good luck with that.

Is there some reason your normal service dress can't be worn while you play bagpipes?

No offense buddy, but it sounds like you just want to stand out and look special. Let it go, wear the uniform as prescribed.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[SarDragon]

Well if the Air Force has a kilt, the Navy has a kilt, the Marines has a kilt, and the Coast Guard has a kilt.  Based on that I don't believe that what I am saying is outrageous.  Seriously though can this be handled at the wing level if I work with Wing to design a pipers uniform for New Hampshire that incorporates the blues uniform so its still partially in regs?? 

Also to the Man with the photos of the CAP bagpipe band, What tartan was the kilt that you guys were wearing.  From what I could see it looked like the Blackwatch (Canadian Reserves) tartan.  The Blackwatch tartan is what I was thinking of recommending to Wing as the NH CAP kilt (because of the color not because of being Canadian)

V/R
C/SSgt Britton

Two comments:

#1. I've been a part of the Navy community my entire life, and do not recall ever seeing a sailor in a kilt. Ever. Could you post a picture, or a link, so I might have the pleasure of that experience.

#2. The AF has an official tartan, and that would be the one recommended for use by CAP personnel.

[Al Sayre]

U. S. Navy Tartan


C'mon Dave, at first I thought this was you in your kilt...

[cadetbritton]

Well if the Air Force has a kilt, the Navy has a kilt, the Marines has a kilt, and the Coast Guard has a kilt.  Based on that I don't believe that what I am saying is outrageous.  Seriously though can this be handled at the wing level if I work with Wing to design a pipers uniform for New Hampshire that incorporates the blues uniform so its still partially in regs?? 

Also to the Man with the photos of the CAP bagpipe band, What tartan was the kilt that you guys were wearing.  From what I could see it looked like the Blackwatch (Canadian Reserves) tartan.  The Blackwatch tartan is what I was thinking of recommending to Wing as the NH CAP kilt (because of the color not because of being Canadian)

V/R
C/SSgt Britton

Two comments:

#1. I've been a part of the Navy community my entire life, and do not recall ever seeing a sailor in a kilt. Ever. Could you post a picture, or a link, so I might have the pleasure of that experience.

#2. The AF has an official tartan, and that would be the one recommended for use by CAP personnel.

U. S. Navy Tartan

Al Sayre posted that and I think it looks good with that uniform not that it has anything to do with CAP

#2 All I was getting at is I was going to recommend it to the blackwatch kilt to the wing commander because I believe that it would look good but all it would be is a recommendation it would be up to him or the NER Commander if he is not able to make that decision.

sorry the picture is so big.  And I honestly believe that kilt would look good with the blues jacket, blues shirt, USAF tie& tie bar, and dark blue hoes (knee socks) not white, and with the black ghillie brogues (scottish shoes worn with kilts)

[SJFedor]

Thank you Sir, I already play in a Bagpipe band and when I joined CAP I wanted to be my squadron's piper.  I march and play with my drill team and I am the Honor Guard Piper.  I know the USAF has a pipe band and I already contacted them to see if it was possible to be issued a uniform but they wouldn't be able to.  CAP is part of the USAF and the USAF authorized a uniform with a kilt for their bagpipers so I believe we should follow in the foot steps of the USAF (like we do with all of our other uniforms) and authorize a uniform for our pipers.  Could this be handled at the Wind level?  Not changing 39-1 (because lets face it I wouldn't be a cadet once they pass it if they even do) but making an exception/change to the uniform just for me so I could wear a kilt with the blues dress shirt, class-a jacket, and usaf tie etc to preform functions for my squadron/wing?

V/R
C/SSgt Britton

You want NHQ to issue a uniform exemption just for you?!?!? Good luck with that.

Is there some reason your normal service dress can't be worn while you play bagpipes?

No offense buddy, but it sounds like you just want to stand out and look special. Let it go, wear the uniform as prescribed.

Well if the Air Force has a kilt, the Navy has a kilt, the Marines has a kilt, and the Coast Guard has a kilt.  Based on that I don't believe that what I am saying is outrageous.  Seriously though can this be handled at the wing level if I work with Wing to design a pipers uniform for New Hampshire that incorporates the blues uniform so its still partially in regs?? 

Also to the Man with the photos of the CAP bagpipe band, What tartan was the kilt that you guys were wearing.  From what I could see it looked like the Blackwatch (Canadian Reserves) tartan.  The Blackwatch tartan is what I was thinking of recommending to Wing as the NH CAP kilt (because of the color not because of being Canadian)

V/R
C/SSgt Britton

As it's a modification of a USAF uniform, it would need to go through channels to HQ CAP-USAF, and from there I believe it would have to be blessed by the USAF Chief of Staff. The USAF controls CAP's abilities to wear modified versions of their uniforms. So, no, it can't be authorized at the Wing level. The things a Wing/CC CAN authorize are found in 39-1.

That, and I can't find a single reference to the tartans in 36-2903. I would imagine the AFRes band has a special authorization for them.

Let it go, brother. It's mildly neat, but it's not worth the headache and effort.

[SarDragon]

C'mon Dave, at first I thought this was you in your kilt...

Too little hair on top, too much in the beard.

OK, there's a USN tartan. Who wears it?

[Private Investigator]

OK, there's a USN tartan. Who wears it?

Only the manliest of sailors. So I am guessing Marines   

[GroundHawg]

http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/index.aspx

If you use their search feature, you will find that every branch, and sometimes even career field has its own Tartan. I don't see why the CAP could not have their own. I come from a long line of Scots on both sides, actively participate in in my Caledonian Society, and used to compete in Highland Games. I for one would love to have a CAP Tartan, and to see CAP represented at a tattoo or pipe and drum competition. You will find a lot of negativity on these boards, if this is something you really want to pursue... DO IT.

[GroundHawg]

OK, there's a USN tartan. Who wears it?

Only the manliest of sailors. So I am guessing Marines   

The USMC has their own

[davedove]

http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/index.aspx

If you use their search feature, you will find that every branch, and sometimes even career field has its own Tartan. I don't see why the CAP could not have their own. I come from a long line of Scots on both sides, actively participate in in my Caledonian Society, and used to compete in Highland Games. I for one would love to have a CAP Tartan, and to see CAP represented at a tattoo or pipe and drum competition. You will find a lot of negativity on these boards, if this is something you really want to pursue... DO IT.

You could always design one and run it up the chain.  If I were to do it, I would probably base it off an Air Force tartan, maybe throw in some Civil Defense symbolic colors.  If one were designed, I would probably get a kilt made in the tartan.

Who knows, it might get made official.

Whether there were any provision for kilt wear in an official uniform is another issue altogether.

[Tim Day]

C/SSgt,

I recommend you proceed. If you contact the USAF unit that wears the kilt, they may even be able to provide you with some historical background or other support. Whether the ultimate answer is yes or no, asking the question shows initiative.

There are some strategies to doing this successfully that you can learn and implement. For example, building some support by discussing with your CC. Do your research and write a memorandum for your chain of command using the official CAP format.

Your tactic should be to make it easy to say "yes."

[Critical AOA]

OK, there's a USN tartan. Who wears it?

Only the manliest of sailors. So I am guessing Marines   

:clap:
Now that's funny!

[lordmonar]

This is one of those.......don't worry about it and just coordinate it locally....things.

You want to have a piper for some special occasion......go for it.   Coordinate it with your local commander and go with it.  Please remember to keep it in good taste and moderation is always a good thing.

Don't start wearing it everywhere.

The purists and Regulation Lawyers will scream bloody murder.   So just ignore them.

Let the flames begin!

[SarDragon]

FWIW, somewhere out there on the interwebs, there is, or used to be, a tartan maker. plug in colors and a style, and presto, a tartan.

Found one: http://www.tartanmaker.com/

And here's what I found on the USAFR Pipe Band kilts: http://www.kilts.com/USAirForcetartan.htm

[MHC5096]

Here is some information on the Pipes and Drums of the United States Military Academy:

http://www.usma.edu/pipes/SitePages/Home.aspx

And the Pipes and Drums of the United States Naval Academy:

http://www.usna.edu/Pipes/index.html

[a2capt]

You want to have a piper for some special occasion......go for it.   Coordinate it with your local commander and go with it.  Please remember to keep it in good taste and moderation is always a good thing.

We do, and that's exactly what we've done. Works great, the cadet is an award winning piper, and the whole thing comes off amazing, every time.

[Storm Chaser]

This is one of those.......don't worry about it and just coordinate it locally....things.

You want to have a piper for some special occasion......go for it.   Coordinate it with your local commander and go with it.  Please remember to keep it in good taste and moderation is always a good thing.

Don't start wearing it everywhere.

The purists and Regulation Lawyers will scream bloody murder.   So just ignore them.

Let the flames begin!

You very well know that we can't just take an Air Force or CAP uniform and modify it for our own purpose without the proper approval. You're advising a cadet to ignore the rules and chain of command and do what he wants as long as it's ok with his unit. That's not good advice to a young cadet.

cadetbritton,

If this is important to you, I suggest you pursue it through the proper channels. Even if you're not initially successful, you will get the discussion going and, who knows, maybe it will happen in the future. Good leaders don't just break the rules when it suits them. Stick to the core values and you won't go wrong. Good luck!

[lordmonar]

I did not tell a cadet to ignore the rules....I told him to take it to his chain of command.

I know exactly what the USAF would say about a kilt.

"Hey that's cool" 

End of story.

This of course is assuming that the kilt was worn where appropriate.   

A member of a CAP honor guard for a funeral, or a special event like a dining out, wing conference banquet.
No one is going to say "hey! you can't do that"....because it happens ALL the time in the USAF.

Band uniforms are not in 36-2903, Thunder Bird uniforms are not 36-2903.  The kilt that the USAF pipe and drums wear now is not in the AFI.

So...please don't try to question my core values.....thank you very much.

[Tim Day]

Cadet Staff Sergeant Britton,

As you can see, there is a wide range of responses from senior members ranging from "don't bother, why ask for anything special" to "just do it". There is also a wide range of apparent maturity levels evident in some of the responses to responses (remember, you can't really tell tone of voice via this media). That's normal, whether you're in CAP, the military, or industry. What's important to you is how will you handle this?

At a minimum, it sounds like your Squadron CC has tacitly approved your wearing of the kilt at squadron functions. While it's debatable whether he has that authority, you're not doing something that will hurt anyone or damage anyone's property, so you're probably sufficiently "covered".

The next step depends on your view of leadership, and whether you decide to take this on as a leadership challenge. This is an opportunity for "leadership from below." Seeing that you're in NER, there's a strong possibility that there are other CAP members who would appreciate the tradition wearing of an AF kilt would represent. Maybe they just haven't bothered to request authorization to wear the kilt. Maybe they're afraid of the chain of command, or have no hope in CAP bureacracy - there are always plenty of excuses for those who don't want to try.

In my opinion, if you do the research, contact an AF unit that wears the kilt for some background (and maybe support), and route an action memorandum up your chain of command, you may benefit more members than just yourself. I'd be surprised if you couldn't find a senior member in your unit, wing, or region to mentor you through this process. I think one of your senior members already chimed in on this thread and mentioned your skill level, etc.

If you can't find someone, PM me (inform your chain of command) and I'd be happy to review / comment on the request package.

[cadetbritton]

Cadet Staff Sergeant Britton,

As you can see, there is a wide range of responses from senior members ranging from "don't bother, why ask for anything special" to "just do it". There is also a wide range of apparent maturity levels evident in some of the responses to responses (remember, you can't really tell tone of voice via this media). That's normal, whether you're in CAP, the military, or industry. What's important to you is how will you handle this?

At a minimum, it sounds like your Squadron CC has tacitly approved your wearing of the kilt at squadron functions. While it's debatable whether he has that authority, you're not doing something that will hurt anyone or damage anyone's property, so you're probably sufficiently "covered".

The next step depends on your view of leadership, and whether you decide to take this on as a leadership challenge. This is an opportunity for "leadership from below." Seeing that you're in NER, there's a strong possibility that there are other CAP members who would appreciate the tradition wearing of an AF kilt would represent. Maybe they just haven't bothered to request authorization to wear the kilt. Maybe they're afraid of the chain of command, or have no hope in CAP bureacracy - there are always plenty of excuses for those who don't want to try.

In my opinion, if you do the research, contact an AF unit that wears the kilt for some background (and maybe support), and route an action memorandum up your chain of command, you may benefit more members than just yourself. I'd be surprised if you couldn't find a senior member in your unit, wing, or region to mentor you through this process. I think one of your senior members already chimed in on this thread and mentioned your skill level, etc.

If you can't find someone, PM me (inform your chain of command) and I'd be happy to review / comment on the request package.

Thank you the help Sir.  I have been talking to senior members in my squadron and my squadron commander and I believe that we are building a case and are going to go to the NH Wing Commander for his approval.

Respectfully,
C/SSgt Britton

[Eclipse]

A member of a CAP honor guard for a funeral, or a special event like a dining out, wing conference banquet.
No one is going to say "hey! you can't do that"....because it happens ALL the time in the USAF.

Why would we care >what< the USAF does in this regard?  They do and wear lots of things we're not allowed to even ask about.

For starters, they >have< an official Tartan, and I guarantee some random, not-authorized airman, is not going to show up wearing a kilt
to some random activity just because he though it would be "kool".

A kilt is not part of our uniform, period.  If it needs to be, send it up, but this is not something that can be authorized locally because it's be "cool", and the idea
that id not only could be, but probably will, speaks volumes about the lack of knowledge and respect many of our leaders have for the regs.

They are treated as sacrosanct or flexible on the whim of the commander.  Here's an idea, why don't we all just try "following them" for say, a year or so,
without filter, ICL, or "local interpretation" and see how that works out, because it would appear that in the history of CAP, that is one option that
has never been tried on a national level.

[lordmonar]

HAHAHA

I thought that the reason why you keep pushing the "follow the rules" line is because you don't want to piss off the USAF.

I will pull that line when....as you say NHQ starts putting their money where their mouth is. 

[Eclipse]

I honestly don't care about "pissing the USAF off", what I care about is building a culture of performance and expectation instead
of lowest common denominator and "you're lucky I showed up at all".

Following the regs, as written, would be a big part of that, and at some point our performance might reach a level where we didn't' have to walk on eggshells
with anyone.

[Private Investigator]

OK, there's a USN tartan. Who wears it?

Only the manliest of sailors. So I am guessing Marines   

:clap:
Now that's funny!

I am still having fun at my children's expense, two of them are sailors   

[Storm Chaser]

I did not tell a cadet to ignore the rules....I told him to take it to his chain of command.

You said and I quote:

This is one of those.......don't worry about it and just coordinate it locally....things.

You want to have a piper for some special occasion......go for it.   Coordinate it with your local commander and go with it.  Please remember to keep it in good taste and moderation is always a good thing.

Since uniforms are NOT a local matter and unit commanders have no saying beyond what's approved in the regulations or supplements, you were basically telling him "as long as your commander says it's ok, then you can ignore the regulations". That's breaking the rules. Period. Dot.

I know exactly what the USAF would say about a kilt.

"Hey that's cool" 

End of story.

This of course is assuming that the kilt was worn where appropriate.

You claim to know a lot about the Air Force, but you forget that many of us ARE in the Air Force too. Half of the stuff you say are simply incorrect.

A member of a CAP honor guard for a funeral, or a special event like a dining out, wing conference banquet.
No one is going to say "hey! you can't do that"....because it happens ALL the time in the USAF.

Just because some are ignorant of the regulations or decide to ignore them all together and others decide to look the other way, doesn't make it right. Again, you're telling this cadet to break the rules because no one is going to care. That's wrong!

Band uniforms are not in 36-2903, Thunder Bird uniforms are not 36-2903.  The kilt that the USAF pipe and drums wear now is not in the AFI.

You've been out of the Air Force for a while. There are many uniforms that didn't used to be in AFI 36-2903, that now are. But you're right that many special uniforms are not in this AFI. They are either authorized in different AFIs, MAJCOM Supplements, ICLs or other publications. Air Force personnel can't just wear whatever they want, whenever they want.

So...please don't try to question my core values.....thank you very much.

You know the regulations very well. If you choose to ignore them when they suit you, then I don't have to question you core values. Your words speak for themselves.

Don't start wearing it everywhere.

The purists and Regulation Lawyers will scream bloody murder.   So just ignore them.

Let the flames begin!

This last part of your post leads me to believe that you just wanted to steer things up with your comments; to start a fight. That seems to be your style in many posts.

[JeffDG]

Following the regs, as written, would be a big part of that, and at some point our performance might reach a level where we didn't' have to walk on eggshells
with anyone.

Tone-at-the-top drives a lot of this.  I have an e-mail from two national staff officers saying "Don't worry about that reg, you don't have to do that." and that AFTER I made the point that they did not have the authority to waive the application of said regulation.

[lordmonar]

Okay.....last lap around this track.

CAP KILTS........and only CAP KILTS.....making some assumptions here.  Cadet Bagpiper wants to do some piping at a place and time where piping is appropriate.

Cadet Bagpiper.....being a hard core bagpiper......would think it would be nifty to wear the USAF kilt while piping at said appropriate place and time.

My advice......and only advice was for him to coordinate with his commander and do it.

No one said to ignore regulations....just to ignore the flamers and naysayers here on CAPTALK.   We can argue all day long about "But the commander does not have the authority"..........and that is true......but in this application...within the scope of what we are talking about.......it is not really worth arguing about.

There is a time and play and way to violate regulations.   And yes I am telling him that if the commander okays it.......it is okay....and it is breaking the regulations......that is one of the reasons why we have commanders.

As for me personally.......22 years in the USAF, retired from AD Oct 2008 returned to AD April 2009 (for a week ).  Work for the USAF as a contractor....so I'm still it the loop of many things.....still read and live by AFI's.  My CAP unit meets on base....so I have vested interest in keeping us on the good side of the USAF.  Work closely with CAP-RAPs with the GFW program so I have an inside pipe line into what CAP-USAF thinks about our uniform issues (though even in the CAP-USAF pipe line they keep their opinions close to the vest).

If I provide information about the USAF that is incorrect, by all means correct me.  Things do change from time to time.  :0

I am a realist...and a situational leader.  The regulations suck, also no one is going to be able to write a regulation that covers ever and all situations.  Hence the reason why we have leaders. 

So....I'm back to begging on this one.....and have nothing further say.

[Storm Chaser]

There is a time and play and way to violate regulations.   And yes I am telling him that if the commander okays it.......it is okay....and it is breaking the regulations......that is one of the reasons why we have commanders.

I don't mean to disregard or disrespect your military experience and service. But you were never a commander, never trained or prepared to be one, and never faced the possibility of being appointed one. And yet you say, "that is one of the reasons why we have commanders" when it comes to deciding whether we need to "violate regulations". I'm sorry, but that's not correct and it doesn't add up.

I never questioned your integrity or military service, just your advice. I don't want to beat this horse to death, but if it's ok to disregard regulations in one instance, then it would be fine to do so in another... and another... and so on. Where does it end?

I appreciate your contribution to the Air Force, CAP and our nation. I respect what you've done. But I respectfully disagree with some of your views and I'm concerned with some of the advice you've given our young cadets. In the real world, when you break the rules there are consequences. Some are big, some are small, but there are there nonetheless.

[lordmonar]

Again.....there is a time and place and way to violate regulations.

Where does it end?

That is why we have leaders and commanders. 

22 years of active service....I have willfully, knowingly violated regulations....with malice aforethought.

Yes.....there are consequences......and yes cadets are too young to be sticking their necks out.

That is why I told him to take it up with his chain of command.

I don't know how that advice is bad....it is exactly what you are supposed to do when what you want/need/must do violates what the regulations allow/permit/suggest/forbid you do.

You are right....I was never a commander in the USAF.....but I advised them of the implications on the mission and regulations concerning my area of expertise.......and we pushed on and got the mission done.

I don't know your experience with the AD USAF.......but many a time I have been told "Noted.....Proceed"......just as often as I have been told "No....let's find another way to do this".

[Eclipse]

Again.....there is a time and place and way to violate regulations.

No, there isn't.

And you cannot compare CAP to the USAF in this regard.  The average CAP commander has neither the authority, nor the training or experience to be expected to
decide when the regulations don't mean what they say.

This attitude is what gets people in trouble.

[Fubar]

This attitude is what gets people in trouble.

This attitude should get people in trouble, but doesn't seem to.

[a2capt]

..which is why it continues to occur.