Allowing CAP Members On Unemployment To Work For DOD

[FARRIER]

http://www.army.mil/article/94545/  "Army freezes hiring, cuts base ops, reduces training"

The above article is referencing the Army, but with our economic situation, I'm thinking my idea should apply to all services.

     There are members of CAP out there who are unemployment, not able to find work. The 99 weeks of unemployment is still in effect in some States. After 26 weeks, it's our tax dollars, but it's coming from a Federal source. For those States that have military installations and are looking at budget constraints, why couldn't they use the skill sets of those CAP members on unemployment. Instead of the member sitting at home, getting depressed that they are unable to find work in their area or field of expertise, why couldn't they work at the local installation, even if it's part time. They may have a skill set that the local base commander is looking for but now can't hire a temp or a contractor for.

     The CAP member could still look for work on the time they are not working at the base. This temporary position may also allow them to network and find employment elsewhere. From the standpoint of unemployment benefits after 26 weeks, the Federal funding source would be transferring funds from one department to the DoD. And most of all, it would keep those, who can get depressed when they are unable to find work after awhile, to not get depressed.

     This would not be an official CAP activity in the sense of wearing some sort of corporate uniform. Instead, CAP would just be a labor pool. In general, CAP members are not slackers, therefore, the DoD would find a motivated group.

Just my thoughts 

[Flying Pig]

I can see so many problems with this I dont even know where to begin......

[Patterson]

Here is a place to begin.....UNEMPLOYMENT is meant as a temporary, short-term assistance measure so a person and their immediate family members DO NOT STARVE while said unemployed person SEEKS EMPLOYMENT.  A person on. Unemployment only has ONE JOB: FIND A NEW JOB.

A CAP Member that is in week 40 of unemployment benefits, should not be spending any time with CAP!!  That person is no longer "just between jobs", they are failing in the expectations of adults in our society. 

Do I think a person should be handed a broom or shovel or paintbrush and assigned work between 8AM and 5:00PM Monday-Friday if they accept unemployment benefits past what they paid in....yes I do.  If a person can not find a job in 23 weeks, time for the local municipalities to step in and put them to work!

Those in thier 30th week of being unemployed only have themselves to blame!  They may believe they are too good for certain jobs, but when your family needs food...you take the first thing you can.

As for volunteer work for DoD; the positions being "temporarily" dismissed and the hiring freeze on all new civilian employees means those current or forecasted jobs are not coming back!  They rightfully should be cut off the budget. 

If you truly want to help out our Country, get a job!!  I am tired of paying for your unwillingness to work!

[Майор Хаткевич]

Wow...its great IF you can get a minimum wage job. Try paying a mortgage on that.

[Flying Pig]

I think the point is that if you have time to volunteer at the local Army base, you probably have your priorities out of whack a little.   I see then intent, but if you should probably be in school, or networking in other ways at other places.  Volunteering to fill a vacancy at a deleted government job isnt going to get you anywhere. 

[FARRIER]

Greetings:

     The idea that people who are still on unemployment after 26 weeks are lazy and haven't been looking for work is an ASSUMPTION and broad-based. This also isn't volunteering. The conditions in each section of the country are different. At the same time we have the one constitutionally mandated duties of the government being cut back, defense. If you have base commanders having to make drastic cuts, where they may need civilians employed to keep certain functions performed, instead of sending those funds into unemployment insurance, transfer them to defense. It would make more sense to keep those positions already filled, but knowing the bureaucratic nature of government, they will cut first.

     Like I said, it's an idea, not all small details were ironed out. This was presented as something to think about.

[RRLE]

If anything like this were to be done, it shouldn't be a plum for distraught CAPers. The jobs should go to honorably discharged service members who cannot find a job in this economy.

[SarDragon]

Most non-retired veterans have gotten out of the military because they didn't have a reason to stay. Why would they want to go back to doing something they they just gave up?

[Eclipse]

First, as Patterson points out, UECI is designed to be a temporary fail-safe for people between jobs.  It is not an alternate funding source
for military employees.  In this case, you would essentially have the states funding federal employees, and would also likely wind up extending
the duration on unemployment because these people would be "working" instead of "looking" (although bizarrely enough,
not having a job can sometimes make it more difficult to get a job).

Second, I don't understand how this would be any better or even directly involve CAP members, unemployed or not.  The average member may be somewhat better informed about the military then a non-member, but a relatively small number overall have any military experience.

Where there might be some potential would be to re-scale the salary or benefits in a way to attract people who have been stuck in long-term unemployment, or need retraining.  The risk there is the tendency to tun temporary programs like these into permanent situations and
creating an entirely new class of under-employed, government-dependent people.

[Patterson]

Wow...its great IF you can get a minimum wage job. Try paying a mortgage on that.

Sorry, but not everyone is entitled to own a home!  Face it, a large piece of our nations economic struggle is due to the idea that everyone has a right to own a house.  This mindset came about after the Second World War and is terribly damaging to the country!  If you can't pay a mortgage, you should be a renter!

FARRIER: your idea would be laughed out of the High School Economics class. Think about what you have really written!  You will cut unemployment benefits by sending the money to DoD, which in turn will allow those specific positions to be saved.  What happens to the dude that currently is unemployed from a nongovernmental position??  He is still sitting out there unemployed (and now starving) because you just gave his unemployment checks to the Defense Department to keep some GS-13 fat and happy.

Truth of the matter is contractors have driven defense costs way too high!!  Turn the day to day jobs currently done by civilian contractors on posts and bases back to the service members.

[Devil Doc]

GS-12 and GS-13, are WORTHLESS!!! All they care about is where to get the next Bonus!! I see contractors everyday at work and to me IMO they take way too long to do a job. There is way to many Veterans that do not have jobs, if they could do the contractors work, it would save time and money. The reason it is not done, because the people in charge of hiring contractors get too much of the cutbacks. Its kinda sad that veterans look for jobs everday, but because they make the other workers look bad, or have better ideas, people are afraid to lose there jobs so they are not hired.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Wow...its great IF you can get a minimum wage job. Try paying a rent on that.

Sorry, but not everyone is entitled to own a home!  Face it, a large piece of our nations economic struggle is due to the idea that everyone has a right to own a house.  This mindset came about after the Second World War and is terribly damaging to the country!  If you can't pay a mortgage, you should be a renter!

Feel better?

[FARRIER]

Why does the DoD hire civilian contractors or keep civilians in positions instead of military personnel?

Institutional knowledge. Having worked for a defense contractor in the IT field, the reason is, in cases where enlistments expire and the knowledge leaves with that transferred or discharged person, a civilian will remain in place longer than two or four years.

Why did I choose CAP as a group?

There is/was the program where CAP volunteered around selected bases. Why not switch that over to our members who may be unemployed. Also people who volunteer in the community, regardless of the organization, are much more motivated.

Networking:

Using my own experience, I found leads for my photography business through interacting with people in CAP. My idea being a rough draft/concept, the person may come across leads through the temporary position. What my be considered normal networking isn't working in their case.

"...creating an entirely new class of under-employed, government-dependent people":

I'll concede that point. I'll apologize I didn't clarify this better, but they person may not work a full forty hours. It could be part-time, since my idea is to make this a temporary stop-gap idea And, that it would kick in only when Federal funds kicked in (after the six weeks).


Back to the original idea...

     Government, taking the meat cleaver approach to things doesn't anticipate things well. Early 1990's, after the First Iraq War, I can't remember if it was the Army or Air Force, but they had too many newly minted second lieutenants (ROTC). I spoke to a couple who joined CAP at that time. They were not being sent to their schools, being given options to be let out of their contract. Later in the 1990's, the Air Force was short navigators, they were pulling LTC's, who were now on the desk, back into the cockpit.

     The initial idea is to allow local Base Commanders a little flexibility in meeting their bases needs and pulling from a motivated pool of people who are still unemployed. After the Government makes the "meat cleaver" cuts, they'll end up having to go back and fill a few of those positions or at least find someone to do them temporarily. The people they originally laid off, will they still be available?

     In a perfect world, the economy would be in such a huge mess, with 10 States of the Union with unemployment rates higher than those unemployed.

[RRLE]

Most non-retired veterans have gotten out of the military because they didn't have a reason to stay. Why would they want to go back to doing something they they just gave up?

They gave up a military position. The OP has CAPers taking civilian DOD positions - an ideal spot for an honorably discharge veteran, who is out of a job but does not want to reenlist in a military position.

[PHall]

Civilian DOD positions in the Army are support jobs that usually require training.
Most of the guys that ETS the Army are in Combat Arms (Infantry, Armour, Artillery).
There are ZERO DOD civilians doing those jobs.

DOD usually does not train civilian employees, you have to have the skills already just to apply for the job.

[SarDragon]

I worked for a contractor for 14 years after I retired from the Navy. I don't know who was getting all those big bucks you were talking about, 'cause it sure wasn't my company. All of our bids went out at Department of Labor rates, which were lower than companies made doing the same work in private industry. The specific work was aviation maintenance training.

[Devil Doc]

Well i do know, that ive seen some of the Contract bills/figures and they seemed kinda high. Im used to the days where this is $100 Hammers, $50 Toliet seats, Etc. Im not blaming the companies for the high rates, im blaming the government not spending there money correctly, they act like it grows on trees.

[♠SARKID♠]

Sounds like a paid version of VSAF, which fell on its face/died AFAIK.

[Private Investigator]

A CAP Member that is in week 40 of unemployment benefits, should not be spending any time with CAP!! 

I agree.

[Walkman]

<warning: rant>

Sorry Patterson, I'm normally not one to call people out, but to me, your comments were rude, your tone is harsh and your points over generalized.

I've been all throughout the employment spectrum. I've been downsized suddenly, I've been a victim of political machinations and let go, I've worked three jobs at a time, freelanced-full and part time, spent weeks in depression because no matter how hard I worked I'm not getting hired, started a business, closed a business, worked at big companies with great benes and small companies that didn't even offer basic insurance, been successful and failed.

I know many, many good people who went WAY beyond 23 weeks in the past few years trying to find work. Responsible, educated people with solid professional backgrounds and good work ethics that got ground up in an ruthless economy through no fault of their own. People who did everything they could to keep their resume in circulation. People that were deemed "over-qualified" for lower-paying jobs in retail/manufacturing/etc.

You comments were offensive to me and offensive to these people. Not everyone who wasn't working in the past few years of this crappy economy was "unwilling to work" or thought they were "too good for certain jobs". I once worked seasonal in the shipping department of a toy warehouse during the Christmas season. It was hard, physical labor for ten hours a day and the job ended December 23rd. Back to unemployment, now what. I guess I "failed in the expectations of adult society"? Gee, thanks for that vote of confidence and all the help & support!

Sometime these things are not so clear cut. As Sgt. Hulka said "Lighten up, Francis."

</rant>

[Devil Doc]

The economy is tough. Ive noticed it is not What you know, it is who you know. So to assume that a person on unemployment cant find a job is lazy is farfetched. Now i do know of some people who refuse to take a minimum wage job because they make more money on unemployment or because they "Think" they are better than that. I cleaned toliets, swept floors, and did other cleaning and stocking duties at a grocery store when i got out of the military? you think a Disabled Combat Veteran deserved that? I think not, i did what i did to pay the bills, ya it was tough, killed my back, but i got through college. Now i have a good job, and will go back to my old job in a heartbeat if i needed to.

[Garibaldi]

Having spent the last year on UE, I do find your attitude disturbing. There are a great many people out there who commit fraud so they can suck off the government teat, and some who get stuck on it because there just isn't a viable alternative. There are plenty of jobs out there, yes. Can you make a living off of them working 40+ hours a week on $8 an hour? No. UE is supposed to be a bridge, yes, but once you hit a certain limit on what you can make working part time, they reduce it or take it away completely. Do I agree that you should not participate in CAP if you're unemployed? No. Why would you? As long as it doesn't interfere with your job searching RESPONSIBILITIES while receiving UE why would you? As long as you're not sitting on your *expletive deleted* watching Springer every day instead of pounding the pavement looking for work, why would you? It's two or three hours a week, and some weekends. The gubmint doesn't ask you to put your whole life on hold, just do what they ask of you. Besides, you're giving back in a way by being in CAP.

YMMV. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

There was a LOT of political undertone in his post, so I'd just let it be and move on.

[Patterson]

<warning: rant>

Sorry Patterson, I'm normally not one to call people out, but to me, your comments were rude, your tone is harsh and your points over generalized.

I've been all throughout the employment spectrum. I've been downsized suddenly, I've been a victim of political machinations and let go, I've worked three jobs at a time, freelanced-full and part time, spent weeks in depression because no matter how hard I worked I'm not getting hired, started a business, closed a business, worked at big companies with great benes and small companies that didn't even offer basic insurance, been successful and failed.

I know many, many good people who went WAY beyond 23 weeks in the past few years trying to find work. Responsible, educated people with solid professional backgrounds and good work ethics that got ground up in an ruthless economy through no fault of their own. People who did everything they could to keep their resume in circulation. People that were deemed "over-qualified" for lower-paying jobs in retail/manufacturing/etc.

You comments were offensive to me and offensive to these people. Not everyone who wasn't working in the past few years of this crappy economy was "unwilling to work" or thought they were "too good for certain jobs". I once worked seasonal in the shipping department of a toy warehouse during the Christmas season. It was hard, physical labor for ten hours a day and the job ended December 23rd. Back to unemployment, now what. I guess I "failed in the expectations of adult society"? Gee, thanks for that vote of confidence and all the help & support!

Sometime these things are not so clear cut. As Sgt. Hulka said "Lighten up, Francis."

</rant>

You confirmed my points exactly!!  You took the jobs that you believed we're beneath you in order to ay bills, eat and stay warm!  Those going into week 40 of unemployment have not done that!  Your affirmation that you took a job, worked just long enough and went back on unemployment is called fraud. 

Why do you think I should help you either?  I am helping you and everyone else receiving a social benefit already.  Perhaps I am fed up with sob stories, how everyone finds themselves in unfortunate situations they can't eat out of. 

The absolute last thing I want is for tax money to go to anyone that is unemployed so that they may volunteer assisting the DoD.  Unemployment Compensation is not meant to be a program allowing CAP Members to donate their efforts to the Government for free.  You see, it's really not free! 

[FARRIER]

Thank you everyone for your inputs.    A forum post being an informal think tank in general, I would be curious if anyone else has a different slant on this. Again, my original concept was a rough draft.

[johnnyb47]

<warning: rant>

Sorry Patterson, I'm normally not one to call people out, but to me, your comments were rude, your tone is harsh and your points over generalized.

I've been all throughout the employment spectrum. I've been downsized suddenly, I've been a victim of political machinations and let go, I've worked three jobs at a time, freelanced-full and part time, spent weeks in depression because no matter how hard I worked I'm not getting hired, started a business, closed a business, worked at big companies with great benes and small companies that didn't even offer basic insurance, been successful and failed.

I know many, many good people who went WAY beyond 23 weeks in the past few years trying to find work. Responsible, educated people with solid professional backgrounds and good work ethics that got ground up in an ruthless economy through no fault of their own. People who did everything they could to keep their resume in circulation. People that were deemed "over-qualified" for lower-paying jobs in retail/manufacturing/etc.

You comments were offensive to me and offensive to these people. Not everyone who wasn't working in the past few years of this crappy economy was "unwilling to work" or thought they were "too good for certain jobs". I once worked seasonal in the shipping department of a toy warehouse during the Christmas season. It was hard, physical labor for ten hours a day and the job ended December 23rd. Back to unemployment, now what. I guess I "failed in the expectations of adult society"? Gee, thanks for that vote of confidence and all the help & support!

Sometime these things are not so clear cut. As Sgt. Hulka said "Lighten up, Francis."

</rant>

You confirmed my points exactly!!  You took the jobs that you believed we're beneath you in order to ay bills, eat and stay warm!  Those going into week 40 of unemployment have not done that!  Your affirmation that you took a job, worked just long enough and went back on unemployment is called fraud. 

Why do you think I should help you either?  I am helping you and everyone else receiving a social benefit already.  Perhaps I am fed up with sob stories, how everyone finds themselves in unfortunate situations they can't eat out of. 

The absolute last thing I want is for tax money to go to anyone that is unemployed so that they may volunteer assisting the DoD.  Unemployment Compensation is not meant to be a program allowing CAP Members to donate their efforts to the Government for free.  You see, it's really not free!

Whoa....
He took a SEASONAL job that ENDED. As in he was let go due to lack of work after the season.
Nothing wrong with taking a job that you know will end while you attempt to find more permanent employment and then having to go back on unemployment IF you're less than successful and the seasonal job ends.
Turning DOWN the seasonal job and continuing to collect unemployment would be fraud. You are asked very specifically when you report the past UE pay period if you were looking for, offered and or turned down work during that time period.

Unless no family member of yours has EVER received Govt Cheese in some form or another I suggest you ease up a bit. Even then I suggest you read a little more closely before you toss out terms like 'Fraud;.

[Walkman]

Your affirmation that you took a job, worked just long enough and went back on unemployment is called fraud. 

Seriously? Fraud? You're calling me that? 

Unfortunately for me, that time I was unemployed I never received a single check from UC. You see, I had a side gig as a freelancer. And that side gig, while not coming nearly close to being enough to pay for my family budget after losing my job, also put me right above the line for being able to qualify for unemployment compensation. So when the warehouse job ended, I went back to being "unemployment", as in "not having a full-time job". Not bilking the government or lying to anyone.

You really need to remember that there are real people on the other side of the computer screen before tossing out crap like that.  Words like that in real life can get you into trouble. Back off the personal attacks.

[Patterson]

You really need to remember that there are real people on the other side of the computer screen before tossing out crap like that.  Words like that in real life can get you into trouble. Back off the personal attacks.

Please don't threaten me.  Threats are what get you into trouble.  Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean you have to attack me!   

[Майор Хаткевич]

You really need to remember that there are real people on the other side of the computer screen before tossing out crap like that.  Words like that in real life can get you into trouble. Back off the personal attacks.

Please don't threaten me.  Threats are what get you into trouble.  Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean you have to attack me!   

That you call a threat? GO troll elsewhere...

[RogueLeader]

You really need to remember that there are real people on the other side of the computer screen before tossing out crap like that.  Words like that in real life can get you into trouble. Back off the personal attacks.

Please don't threaten me.  Threats are what get you into trouble.  Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean you have to attack me!   

That's what we call passive-aggressive, and totally uncalled for. 

[Devil Doc]

Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive!!

[Stonewall]

I cleaned toliets, swept floors, and did other cleaning and stocking duties at a grocery store when i got out of the military? you think a Disabled Combat Veteran deserved that?

I'm genuinely curious, what do/did you think you deserved, as a disabled combat veteran?  I am genuinely asking this question because I want to know.

I'm guessing it depends on a disabled veterans level of disability, but use yourself as an example.  Once you were able to return to work physically and emotionally, what did you expect?

For reference, my dad is 100% disabled.  As in, he can't speak like a normal person and is paralyzed on one side.  He is physically not able to do a job.  However, for like 20 years, he made it his mission to collect cans for recycling, cut coupons that saved the family thousands of dollars each year, and feed the dogs while my mom finished her degree at age 50 so she could become a teacher, a life long dream.

Again, I'm not trying to start a debate or bash veterans (remember, I'm a veteran too).  I actually have an opportunity to ask a combat wounded veteran, and thought I'd ask.

[Devil Doc]

Well, i think i deserved the higher paying jobs i applied for and didnt get. What is not realized when i worked at that store, i was heavily medicated  So being disabled i think i deserve the job i have now, no physical labor, nice job helping veterans.

[Майор Хаткевич]

"The mobile infantry made me the man I am today"

While vets aren't entitled to advantages outside of government jobs, I think their service should be a plus when applying when compared to similarly qualified civilian candidates.

[flyboy53]

"The mobile infantry made me the man I am today"

While vets aren't entitled to advantages outside of government jobs, I think their service should be a plus when applying when compared to similarly qualified civilian candidates.

Where have you been?

There are numerous federal and state initiatives to hire veterans into the civilian workforce and government. Some states like New York may be more aggressive about it, but you should be checking with the Department of Labor in your home state to see what's there.

If the issue is to have a CAP member work for DoD while unemployment, the catch would be what impact that duty would have on the unemployment benefits. If the option is to volunteer, that's another issue. I, however, wonder why NHQ has never explored things like VISTA or Americorps You could actually attach several full-time people to a wing support element with AmeriCorps people working on a stipend or educational credits.

[Rick-DEL]

I do know that companies are making a big push to hire vets. There is a program called "Hiring Our Heroes" that is (or should be) underway to hire 500,000 veterans by the end of 2014. I work for Capital One, and we have heavily engaged ourselves in that program and will be setting up road shows in 2013 across the US to talk/interview/hire veterans.

http://www.uschamber.com/hiringourheroes
http://www.uschamber.com/hiringourheroes/events

Good luck to all !!!

I will be working at one/two of the locations. As a veteran myself...I support this initiative 100%.

[Stonewall]

Well, i think i deserved the higher paying jobs i applied for and didnt get. What is not realized when i worked at that store, i was heavily medicated  So being disabled i think i deserve the job i have now, no physical labor, nice job helping veterans.

Okay, sorry to drift from the topic slightly, but to continue my quest for information on the subject....

As a disabled combat veteran, you recieve compensation, correct?  When I was a cop, a colleague spent 18 months in the Army where he was injured and received 60% disability, which meant he was collecting, don't quote me on exact numbers, but I think it was about $1,600 a month, plus full VA benefits which included 100% tuition to school, free books, and a friggin computer.

So, while we were at the same pay rate, he actually did make more money because of his service related disability. Whereas I was paid $39,000 per year, he was paid $39,000 + $19,200 = $58,200.  Not too shabby if you ask me.

My point being, you think you deserve a higher paying job, but regardless of what job you have, you'll always be paid more due to your disability.  Am I right?  And again, I'm trying to learn, here.

[Devil Doc]

60% disability is only 1024 dollars without dependants. I know becuase i am 60% working on a higher rating. When i was in college, yes college was paid for but, i only got like 400 from Voc Rehab monthly to pay for rent. Didnt have a job. When i was working, i getting paid less from Voc Rehab because i was taking less classes. Plus working a Part time job making 7.25 an hour. So ya do the math, i was living on 1800 ish a month. It was hard ot live on that. Plus when your car breaks down, or and unexpected bill comes up, its hard. I asnt going to college full time so i wasnt getting paid as much as your friend.

[Stonewall]

60% disability is only 1024 dollars without dependants. I know becuase i am 60% working on a higher rating. When i was in college, yes college was paid for but, i only got like 400 from Voc Rehab monthly to pay for rent. Didnt have a job. When i was working, i getting paid less from Voc Rehab because i was taking less classes. Plus working a Part time job making 7.25 an hour. So ya do the math, i was living on 1800 ish a month. It was hard ot live on that. Plus when your car breaks down, or and unexpected bill comes up, its hard. I asnt going to college full time so i wasnt getting paid as much as your friend.

Here's my point.  You made $1,024 a month (my friend did have dependents) and $7.25 an hour.  Think about the typical American who was ONLY making $7.25 an hour.  You made $1,024 more a month.  I hired college graduates who only got paid $10 an hour and that's it. 

After my 4 year active duty enlistment as an infantryman, I thought that I deserved more than $9.50 an hour because I was a "BAMF grunt" with jump wings.  Guess what?  There were a million other BAMF dudes in the same boat.  So what could I offer my employer that others couldn't?  NOTHING!  I was a high school graduate with 4 years of active military service under my belt.  Not a whole lot to offer outside my skill set as an Infantryman.

My point being, as honorable as a Purple Heart is, as well as a combat disability, you have to understand that employers have a job to do and are usually (mostly, actually, unless you're the government) are looking to MAKE MONEY.  Purple Heart or no Purple Heart, I'm going to hire the guy with the best qualifications.  If two people are identical in qualification and one is a veteran, yeah, I'll hire the vet.  But do not think in the real world that being a veteran, even with combat awards, will get you a great paying job.

[Майор Хаткевич]

"The mobile infantry made me the man I am today"

While vets aren't entitled to advantages outside of government jobs, I think their service should be a plus when applying when compared to similarly qualified civilian candidates.

Where have you been?

There are numerous federal and state initiatives to hire veterans into the civilian workforce and government. Some states like New York may be more aggressive about it, but you should be checking with the Department of Labor in your home state to see what's there.

Yea yea and Chase is planning on hiring vets and also gives them good loans. So are all the other banks. That is, until they foreclose on a soldier who is deployed...

I see places like fast food do the same thing. They'll make an effort to hire a vet. Great. The job is still minimum wage.

[Private Investigator]

I cleaned toliets, swept floors, and did other cleaning and stocking duties at a grocery store when i got out of the military? you think a Disabled Combat Veteran deserved that? I think not, ...

Here's a story of a Medal of Honor receipent and Army Master Sergeant who spent his golden years as a janitor

http://www.homeofheroes.com/profiles/profiles_crawford_10lessons.html

Semper Fi

[Stonewall]

I cleaned toliets, swept floors, and did other cleaning and stocking duties at a grocery store when i got out of the military? you think a Disabled Combat Veteran deserved that? I think not, ...

Here's a story of a Medal of Honor receipent and Army Master Sergeant who spent his golden years as a janitor

http://www.homeofheroes.com/profiles/profiles_crawford_10lessons.html

Semper Fi

This story is the opening to the Air Force NCO Academy course books.  Great story, and when Devil Doc mentioned his job cleaning toilets I instantly remembered the story of this guy.  Awesome story!

William (Bill) John Crawford: A Hero and a Janitor

By Colonel James E. Moschgat, Commander of the 12th Operations Group, 12th Flying Training Wing, Randolph Air Force Base, Texas


   An unassuming American Hero

William "Bill" Crawford certainly was an unimpressive figure, one you could easily overlook during a hectic day at the U.S. Air Force Academy. Mr. Crawford, as most of us referred to him back in the late 1970s, was our squadron janitor.

While we cadets busied ourselves preparing for academic exams, athletic events, Saturday morning parades and room inspections, or never-ending leadership classes, Bill quietly moved about the squadron mopping and buffing floors, emptying trash cans, cleaning toilets, or just tidying up the mess 100 college-age kids can leave in a dormitory. Sadly, and for many years, few of us gave him much notice, rendering little more than a passing nod or throwing a curt, "G'morning!" in his direction as we hurried off to our daily duties.

Why? Perhaps it was because of the way he did his job-he always kept the squadron area spotlessly clean, even the toilets and showers gleamed. Frankly, he did his job so well, none of us had to notice or get involved. After all, cleaning toilets was his job, not ours. Maybe it was his physical appearance that made him disappear into the background. Bill didn't move very quickly and, in fact, you could say he even shuffled a bit, as if he suffered from some sort of injury. His gray hair and wrinkled face made him appear ancient to a group of young cadets. And his crooked smile, well, it looked a little funny. Face it, Bill was an old man working in a young person's world.

What did he have to offer us on a personal level?

Finally, maybe it was Mr. Crawford's personality that rendered him almost invisible to the young people around him. Bill was shy, almost painfully so. He seldom spoke to a cadet unless they addressed him first, and that didn't happen very often. Our janitor always buried himself in his work, moving about with stooped shoulders, a quiet gait, and an averted gaze. If he noticed the hustle and bustle of cadet life around him, it was hard to tell. So, for whatever reason, Bill blended into the woodwork and became just another fixture around the squadron. The Academy, one of our nation's premier leadership laboratories, kept us busy from dawn till dusk. And Mr. Crawford...well, he was just a janitor.

That changed one fall Saturday afternoon in 1976. I was reading a book about World War II and the tough Allied ground campaign in Italy, when I stumbled across an incredible story. On September 13, 1943, a Private William Crawford from Colorado, assigned to the 36th Infantry Division, had been involved in some bloody fighting on Hill 424 near Altavilla, Italy. The words on the page leapt out at me: "in the face of intense and overwhelming hostile fire ... with no regard for personal safety ... on his own initiative, Private Crawford single-handedly attacked fortified enemy positions." It continued, "for conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at risk of life above and beyond the call of duty, the President of the United States ..."

"Holy cow," I said to my roommate, "you're not going to believe this, but I think our janitor is a Medal of Honor winner." We all knew Mr. Crawford was a WWII Army vet, but that didn't keep my friend from looking at me as if I was some sort of alien being. Nonetheless, we couldn't wait to ask Bill about the story on Monday. We met Mr. Crawford bright and early Monday and showed him the page in question from the book, anticipation and doubt in our faces. He starred at it for a few silent moments and then quietly uttered something like, "Yep, that's me."


Medal of Honor recipient Bill Crawford

Mouths agape, my roommate and I looked at one another, then at the book, and quickly back at our janitor. Almost at once we both stuttered, "Why didn't you ever tell us about it?"

He slowly replied after some thought, "That was one day in my life and it happened a long time ago."  I guess we were all at a loss for words after that. We had to hurry off to class and Bill, well, he had chores to attend to.  However, after that brief exchange, things were never again the same around our squadron. Word spread like wildfire among the cadets that we had a hero in our midst-Mr. Crawford, our janitor, had won the Medal! Cadets who had once passed by Bill with hardly a glance, now greeted him with a smile and a respectful, "Good morning, Mr. Crawford."

Those who had before left a mess for the "janitor" to clean up started taking it upon themselves to put things in order. Most cadets routinely stopped to talk to Bill throughout the day and we even began inviting him to our formal squadron functions. He'd show up dressed in a conservative dark suit and quietly talk to those who approached him, the only sign of his heroics being a simple blue, star spangled lapel pin.

Almost overnight, Bill went from being a simple fixture in our squadron to one of our teammates. Mr. Crawford changed too, but you had to look closely to notice the difference. After that fall day in 1976, he seemed to move with more purpose, his shoulders didn't seem to be as stooped, he met our greetings with a direct gaze and a stronger "good morning" in return, and he flashed his crooked smile more often. The squadron gleamed as always, but everyone now seemed to notice it more. Bill even got to know most of us by our first names, something that didn't happen often at the Academy. While no one ever formally acknowledged the change, I think we became Bill's cadets and his squadron.

As often happens in life, events sweep us away from those in our past. The last time I saw Bill was on graduation day in June 1977. As I walked out of the squadron for the last time, he shook my hand and simply said, "Good luck, young man."

With that, I embarked on a career that has been truly lucky and blessed. Mr. Crawford continued to work at the Academy and eventually retired in his native Colorado where he resides today, one of four Medal of Honor winners living in a small town.

A wise person once said, "It's not life that's important, but those you meet along the way that make the difference." Bill was one who made a difference for me. While I haven't seen Mr. Crawford in over twenty years, he'd probably be surprised to know I think of him often. Bill Crawford, our janitor, taught me many valuable, unforgettable leadership lessons. Here are ten I'd like to share with you.

1. Be Cautious of Labels. Labels you place on people may define your relationship to them and bound their potential. Sadly, and for a long time, we labeled Bill as just a janitor, but he was so much more. Therefore, be cautious of a leader who callously says, "Hey, he's just an Airman." Likewise, don't tolerate the O-1, who says, "I can't do that, I'm just a lieutenant."

2. Everyone Deserves Respect. Because we hung the "janitor" label on Mr. Crawford, we often wrongly treated him with less respect than others around us. He deserved much more, and not just because he was a Medal of Honor winner. Bill deserved respect because he was a janitor, walked among us, and was a part of our team.

3. Courtesy Makes a Difference. Be courteous to all around you, regardless of rank or position. Military customs, as well as common courtesies, help bond a team. When our daily words to Mr. Crawford turned from perfunctory "hellos" to heartfelt greetings, his demeanor and personality outwardly changed. It made a difference for all of us.

4. Take Time to Know Your People. Life in the military is hectic, but that's no excuse for not knowing the people you work for and with. For years a hero walked among us at the Academy and we never knew it. Who are the heroes that walk in your midst?

5. Anyone Can Be a Hero. Mr. Crawford certainly didn't fit anyone's standard definition of a hero. Moreover, he was just a private on the day he won his Medal. Don't sell your people short, for any one of them may be the hero who rises to the occasion when duty calls. On the other hand, it's easy to turn to your proven performers when the chips are down, but don't ignore the rest of the team. Today's rookie could and should be tomorrow's superstar.

6. Leaders Should Be Humble. Most modern day heroes and some leaders are anything but humble, especially if you calibrate your "hero meter" on today's athletic fields. End zone celebrations and self-aggrandizement are what we've come to expect from sports greats. Not Mr. Crawford-he was too busy working to celebrate his past heroics. Leaders would be well-served to do the same.

7. Life Won't Always Hand You What You Think You Deserve. We in the military work hard and, dang it, we deserve recognition, right? However, sometimes you just have to persevere, even when accolades don't come your way. Perhaps you weren't nominated for junior officer or airman of the quarter as you thought you should – don't let that stop you.

8. Don't pursue glory; pursue excellence. Private Bill Crawford didn't pursue glory; he did his duty and then swept floors for a living. No job is beneath a Leader. If Bill Crawford, a Medal of Honor winner, could clean latrines and smile, is there a job beneath your dignity? Think about it.
9. Pursue Excellence. No matter what task life hands you, do it well. Dr. Martin Luther King said, "If life makes you a street sweeper, be the best street sweeper you can be." Mr. Crawford modeled that philosophy and helped make our dormitory area a home.

10. Life is a Leadership Laboratory. All too often we look to some school or PME class to teach us about leadership when, in fact, life is a leadership laboratory. Those you meet everyday will teach you enduring lessons if you just take time to stop, look and listen. I spent four years at the Air Force Academy, took dozens of classes, read hundreds of books, and met thousands of great people. I gleaned leadership skills from all of them, but one of the people I remember most is Mr. Bill Crawford and the lessons he unknowingly taught. Don't miss your opportunity to learn.

Bill Crawford was a janitor. However, he was also a teacher, friend, role model and one great American hero. Thanks, Mr. Crawford, for some valuable leadership lessons.

Dale Pyeatt, Executive Director of the National Guard Association of Texas, comments: And now, for the "rest of the story": Pvt William John Crawford was a platoon scout for 3rd Platoon of Company L 1 42nd Regiment 36th Division (Texas National Guard) and won the Medal Of Honor for his actions on Hill 424, just 4 days after the invasion at Salerno.

On Hill 424, Pvt Crawford took out 3 enemy machine guns before darkness fell, halting the platoon's advance. Pvt Crawford could not be found and was assumed dead. The request for his MOH was quickly approved. Major General Terry Allen presented the posthumous MOH to Bill Crawford's father, George, on 11 May 1944 in Camp (now Fort) Carson, near Pueblo. Nearly two months after that, it was learned that Pvt Crawford was alive in a POW camp in Germany. During his captivity, a German guard clubbed him with his rifle. Bill overpowered him, took the rifle away, and beat the guard unconscious. A German doctor's testimony saved him from severe punishment, perhaps death. To stay ahead of the advancing Russian army, the prisoners were marched 500 miles in 52 days in the middle of the German winter, subsisting on one potato a day. An allied tank column liberated the camp in the spring of 1945, and Pvt Crawford took his first hot shower in 18 months on VE Day. Pvt Crawford stayed in the army before retiring as a MSG and becoming a janitor. In 1984, President Ronald Reagan officially presented the MOH to Bill Crawford.

William Crawford passed away in 2000. He is the only U.S. Army veteran and sole Medal of Honor winner to be buried in the cemetery of the U.S. Air Force Academy.

[Devil Doc]

I remember reading that  story, great story. Isnt that what he chose to do? I understand thats what he did. I wanted to better my self, and work in the medical field.

[Devil Doc]

I am by no means saying that i am better than anybody else. I was appreciative of my Job at so called grocery store. I just wanted to work in the same field I did in the Military. It took me 3 years to get a governement job, and i love working it. I get to meet veterans everyday and help them with the same issues i have been though, very rewarding.

[Eclipse]

I remember reading that  story, great story. Isnt that what he chose to do? I understand thats what he did. I wanted to better my self, and work in the medical field.

This is another tangential, but legit problem.

We need to be providing either reciprocal, or federal-level, certification for people in the military.  Firefighters, medical people, aviators, law enforcement, etc., should all be able to turn their directly-related skills into civilian equivalents simply and easily.

[Devil Doc]

I remember reading that  story, great story. Isnt that what he chose to do? I understand thats what he did. I wanted to better my self, and work in the medical field.

This is another tangential, but legit problem.

We need to be providing either reciprocal, or federal-level, certification for people in the military.  Firefighters, medical people, aviators, law enforcement, etc., should all be able to turn their directly-related skills into civilian equivalents simply and easily.

Like button.

[Stonewall]

I remember reading that  story, great story. Isnt that what he chose to do? I understand thats what he did. I wanted to better my self, and work in the medical field.

This is another tangential, but legit problem.

We need to be providing either reciprocal, or federal-level, certification for people in the military.  Firefighters, medical people, aviators, law enforcement, etc., should all be able to turn their directly-related skills into civilian equivalents simply and easily.

Disagree to an extent.

As an example, my career field in the Air Force (Guard).  To say that a Security Forces Airman is equal to a municipal cop in knowledge or training is simply not true.  Sure, some Air Force "cops" get stationed at bases and perform standard law enforcement duties, but most do not.  Air Base Ground Defense and standing gates, yep you betcha.  Now, crossing over to a "security guard" job, sure, they qualify across the board.  But so do most Airmen.

A PJ is an NREMT-P.  That's obviously a direct cross over.  But a standard Army medic or Air Force Med-Tech start their training by earning NEMT-B, a 120 (or is it 140) hour course.  I did this in the Army in 3 weeks and I wasn't even a medic.  But the military allows you to go above and beyond what a civilian EMT-B could do.  Needle decompressions, IVs, push a few drugs, etc.  You're not going to find an agency on the outside that allows you to do those things without a state or national certification that gives you the certification to perform those procedures within the scope of a named cert, such as EMT-I or P.  My buddy is a Navy SWCC Corpsman (Chief, E7).  He's got way more training than a standard EMT-B, but he wouldn't be able to pick up a job on the outside doing anything more than an EMT-B can do because he doesn't hold other qualifications.

Firefighters are pretty cut and dry, I'd say.  More so than most career fields you mentioned.

My buddy (and former cadet) is a PJ.  He is heading off to Tydnall AFB to be an AFSOC SCUBA instructor.  And though he is a graduate of the US Army Combat Divers Course, he had nothing more than a PADI Open Water Diver certification.  Now, he's gone through the PADI certifications and holds ALL PADI certs, but it wasn't a gimmie, he had to go through and test out.

I agree, some military specialties should be permitted to "test out" of their civilian counterpart career fields qualifications, but remember, an agency is signing off saying that you're "good to go" and I don't know many private or municipal agencies that wouldn't first evaluate your skills before signing you off as qualified.