Senior Members in Formation?

[CAP4117]

Over the last year, our squadron has started to include senior members in opening and closing formation. It is not universally accepted - some senior members refuse to do it, while others are enthusiastic. Once, we had a visitor from another squadron who looked confused and said, "that's not what seniors do."
I'm curious to know what other squadrons do - is this a common practice? Is there a regulation on it? Thanks.

[SarDragon]

In my experience, it's entirely at the option of the individual unit. I've done it both ways. No preference either way.

[PHall]

We do it every week at my squadron. It's just accepted as something that happens every week.

[krnlpanick]

I am encouraging my squadron to do so, for a couple reasons:

1) It builds on unit morale, especially in the Cadet corps. The cadets in our squadron look up to their officers, and if we are all just standing around lolly-gagging while a senior officer is addressing the squadron or while the cadet corps are in opening and closing formation it shows a lack of interest in them and a lack of dedication to the unit.

2) Frankly, I find it extremely disrespectful when a group of SMs is not paying attention to what is going on when someone is speaking to the group. There is a reason the position is called attention.

3) We all signed up to be a force in the United States Air Force Auxiliary. While we are not the military, our organization is deeply rooted in military history and I believe that *all members* should practice military customs and courtesies as a sign of dedication and respect.

4) Did I mention dedication and respect yet?

[EMT-83]

Our seniors always stand opening formation, and usually closing as well. If someone is trying to wrap up a project, they'll skip closing.

[Stonewall]

Don't ask why this is in B&W, but BITD our seniors formed up every single meeting.  Here is a smaller formation of just 8 or 9 seniors, but we often boasted as many as 15 to 20.

I always thought it to be a positive thing and gave the squadron commander an opportunity to have everyone's attention for opening/closing announcements and recognition.

[AirDX]

I've been in units that have done it, and others that didn't. I think it's a good idea.

[Eclipse]

We do it every week at my squadron. It's just accepted as something that happens every week.

+1 - you just do it. 

Positive peer pressure will generally "encourage" seniors to step up. 
If you have some that literally refuse to do it, the CC should start with private conversations regarding attitude, and eventually consider
disciplinary action for people who believe CAP is a Democracy.

If standing in formation is too much "bother", they should consider either a different unit or a different place to expend their volunteer energy.

[NIN]

As a commander, I suggested to my deputy commander that he take charge of the senior formation (once we had enough seniors to actually stand in formation and not look utterly lame.

He demurred at my suggestion. I  looked at my XO and said "X, take charge of the seniors, will you?"  My XO, a retired ARNG Major, said "yessir!" and said "Seniors, FALL IN!"  (to which all the seniors almost universally said "do what?")

I had a new deputy commander a couple months later. His idea of a CAP squadron was more "church basement and coffee for the seniors" and not "Air Force Auxiliary"

Later, we had enough seniors at every meeting that we were giving the cadet flights a run for their money. I have to tell you, it was pretty cool to look at a squadron formation consisting of (from the commander's left to right): A senior flight, 2 or 3 cadet flights and a basic training flight.  One night we had 12 or 14 seniors in the flight, 3 flights of about 16 or 18 cadets, and 18 cadets in the basic flight.  Stretched all the way across the drill hall.

ETA: We started adding senior D&C (10-15 minutes at a clip) to the monthly senior meetings.  To include "How to get into formation, what positions to stand at during what commands, how to report out of a flight in formation, and how to be dismissed."  That was some good training there.

[A.Member]

Seniors and cadets form up in separate formations/flights (cadets actually have 2 separate flights) for opening and closing every week - as it should be.  Never thought about it any other way nor has it ever been a topic of debate/discussion.

[okeecap]

Wow seniors in formation, that sounds awesome.  At my squadron if some seniors are standing out side it means its smoke break.  I would love to see something like that happen at my squadron.

[CAP4117]

Thanks for your responses, everyone. I myself have appreciated the change. It always felt strange to be standing around in a gaggle while the cadets were in formation. I do think it adds a sense of cohesiveness to the squadron - I just hope we get to a point where everyone will participate. It's good to hear that this seems to be a relatively standard thing, at least for composite squadrons.

As a commander, I suggested to my deputy commander that he take charge of the senior formation (once we had enough seniors to actually stand in formation and not look utterly lame.

Just out of curiosity, how many is generally enough? And, where does the flight usually stand in relation to the cadets? I haven't been able to find the answer to that.

[Luis R. Ramos]

As to where the senior flight stands, that would be the CC decision.

Currently our seniors usually fall in with the Commander when the squadron CC walks to receive the report. I usually do not stand in formation nor step in with the CC. I have physical problems. Slightly herniated back, operations in both knee and bone spurs in ankles that make facing movements painful and hard to take in step. Same reason I do not go to parades anymore.

About ten years ago, I was in a squadron that during the summers met with another squadron in a NG armory. Senior members formed as a separate flight to the right side - as viewed from the formation side - of the cadet flight. In however many elements as needed to fit seniors. This year our seniors formed as a flight about two or three times, again to the right of the cadet flight.

I guess it depends on whether you have many seniors present, they should fall in as a flight. If you have two or three, they could fall in with the CC.

Flyer

[coudano]

We don't do it.

The cadets typically fall in, on time (I hope), on their own, without prompting.  The only senior member present during that maybe a leadership officer, or deputy commander, who may be doing paperwork off to the side.  On occasion there may not be a senior member in the *immediate* vicinity at all...  but there is usually/(almost always) someone "around".  The cadets fall out in the same fashion (on time --I hope).

We use formations as learning/practice tools for the leadership lab (and nothing else).  Thus the instructors of the leadership lab (cadet program senior members) are usually around and about, "instructing" (not in formation).  Those senior members who aren't doing that, don't really have any need (or desire) to be there, so they aren't.



The main exception to this is our promotion ceremony, which we hold once a month (4th Tuesday).
EVERYBODY goes to that.

Out of experience, we have learned to put up chairs for promotion ceremony, for parents and other guests to sit in.  The senior members are then leaned on pretty hard to either sit in the chairs, or stand in a row behind the chairs.  What we do not allow is ANYONE in front of the 3/9 line of the first element of the flight(s) in formation, except for the squadron commander presenting the awards, the member receiving the awards, and the narrator conducting the ceremony (ideally, a cadet officer).

The primary practical reasons for this:
1.  Keeps the background of photos clean of all sorts of nonsense
2.  Cuts down on distractions

[Walkman]

I'm in support of the idea. For a little while, our small group of SMs started to fall in with the cadets at closing. It was driven by a particularly high-speed Major who is also AD USAF. He not only bleeds AF Blue, but he's full of CAP kool-aid (which I LOVE!! I never feel prouder of my CAP service than when I'm around him. He's seriously awesome!). Unfortunately two factors have pretty much ended the practice for the moment:
1. Major Awesome is deployed to A-Stan until March.
2. DCS was in the Army decades ago for a short time and is positively against standing in formation.

Our CC is a 22 year AF vet as well. He hasn't made his opinion known (at least to me) about being for or against it. I think he defers to the DCS and lets him command his area.

At the moment, we all stand to the side of the cadet formation at closing and are quietly respectful. We just became a composite squadron recently. After being a cadet unit forever, we're still working on developing a solid SM program outside of the work we do with cadets (but that's another thread).

[A.Member]

Don't ask why this is in B&W, but BITD our seniors formed up every single meeting.  Here is a smaller formation of just 8 or 9 seniors, but we often boasted as many as 15 to 20.

I always thought it to be a positive thing and gave the squadron commander an opportunity to have everyone's attention for opening/closing announcements and recognition.

In re: to the pc you attached...covers inside?! 

Our formation (cadets formation in foreground, senior formation in background):

[Stonewall]

In re: to the pc you attached...covers inside?! 

In some cases we considered the drill floor "outdoors" under certain circumstances.  Not sure what the theory was behind it, but that's how it was.

In the Army, we always wore our covers inside during ceremonies and command inspections.  Perhaps this was an "open ranks" inspection.

[EMT-83]

The whole "indoors" and "outdoors" thing gets pretty funny sometimes when trying to explain it to new members.

Indoors/outdoors would be the drill floor, and covers are worn.

Indoors/indoors is the remaining interior space, and covers are not worn.

Outdoors/flightline is a no-cover area.

Outdoors/outdoors would be the parking lot, and covers are worn.

[Eclipse]

The whole "indoors" and "outdoors" thing gets pretty funny sometimes when trying to explain it to new members.

It gets more fun on a Navy base, where indoors may be a quarterdeck, which from this perspective is designated "outdoors"
(including the occasional steam tunnel which connects buildings, where saluting may mean smacking your hand on a pipe),
and then add to it that, at least on the RTC, most of the PO's and Chiefs live by "indoors / hat off" for consistency, even when
it's clearly a quarterdeck, etc.

There'd be times when to walk between offices you had to put your hat on.

Except for those that don't.

[Garibaldi]

It gets more fun on a Navy base, where indoors my be a quarterdeck, which from this perspective is designated "outdoors"
(including the occasional steam tunnel which connects buildings, where saluting may mean smacking your hand on a pipe),
and then add to it that, at least on the RTC, most of the PO's and Chiefs live by "indoors / hat off" for consistency, even when
it's clearly a quarterdeck, etc.

There'd be times when to walk between offices you had to put your hat on.

Except for those that don't.

Go send cadets on a quest for "overhead grease"