Reclassification of BDU uniform

[SARDOC]

If you were wearing your required orange vest over your BDU's while you were in those woods, you would be seen.

I think that instead of wearing a required Orange Vest why not just adopt the california Wing Orange shirt uniform nationwide?

[RogueLeader]

I just think Blue BDU's make us fit better with the professional ES crowd

Last I checked, we are not part of any ES crowd, a portion works with them, but we are a part of the Air Force, with certain provisions that have already been discussed ad nausium.  We wear BDU's due to that association.  If you want a better fit with professional ES groups, feel free to join them.

[SARDOC]

I just think Blue BDU's make us fit better with the professional ES crowd

Last I checked, we are not part of any ES crowd, a portion works with them, but we are a part of the Air Force, with certain provisions that have already been discussed ad nausium.  We wear BDU's due to that association.  If you want a better fit with professional ES groups, feel free to join them.

I am part of them.  I'm afraid that you are missing the whole Emergency Services Mission of the Civil Air Patrol.   We are part of that group as well.  We are the Civilian Auxiliary to the Air Force. but wearing the BDU's no more make us a part of them because not even they wear that uniform anymore.  Even if they did allow us to wear the ABU's only a select part of our membership can wear it excluding others taking away the whole team concept of a uniform...but you are right...ad nauseum.

[Critical AOA]

I still am wondering what CAP mission requires us to be camouflaged.   When is it we want to be hidden?

Also, wearing orange over camo just looks like you can't make up your mind.  I want to hide... no, no...  I want to be seen!  It is a bit bipolar. 

Wearing blue BDUs with an orange vest does not have the same contradiction and actually looks better. 

[Ned]

Hmm, this appears to be new information.  I think most of us here were under the impression that the AF had total independent control over this issue and that it would only take an ok from them to authorize CAP to wear AF-style uniforms. 

Is this an existing generic DoD policy that prohibits others from wearing DoD uniforms that CAP has always gotten waivers from in regards to AF-style uniforms?  Or is this something new?

CAP has put out in releases and on the KB that the current restriction is DoD-based.  I have seen the relatively new (~2 years old?) memo from the Office of the SECDEF which fairly clearly excludes us.  While we can reasonably assume that the omission may have been inadvertent, at this point "it is what it is," and we need to either have the memo changed or a waiver granted. 

My opinion is that OSD will grant the waiver, but that means we first have to put together a packet for the OSD and route it through our AF colleagues for their concurrence.  But the AF quite rightly believes that they cannot independently approve CAP wearing the ABUs in contravention of DoD policy.

So there we are.

[RogueLeader]

I just think Blue BDU's make us fit better with the professional ES crowd

Last I checked, we are not part of any ES crowd, a portion works with them, but we are a part of the Air Force, with certain provisions that have already been discussed ad nausium.  We wear BDU's due to that association.  If you want a better fit with professional ES groups, feel free to join them.

I am part of them.  I'm afraid that you are missing the whole Emergency Services Mission of the Civil Air Patrol.   We are part of that group as well.  We are the Civilian Auxiliary to the Air Force. but wearing the BDU's no more make us a part of them because not even they wear that uniform anymore.

Not forgetting any part of ES.  Most of our ES work (in my AOR is an AFAM, as you recall is an Air Force Assigned Mission,) controlled by the AF through the AFRCC through WIMRS by a CAP IC.  so when I do SAR, I am acting for the AF.  That does not make me AD, AFR, ANG, or any other acronym, but it is counted on AF reports for man-hours, etc. 

The BDU's are a tie to the AF.  One that hasn't been updated to match yet.  You apparently don't care for the visual tie to the AF.  I can't control that or change it.  Lets just agree to disagree, because IMO BBU's are just as bad for being seeing in my AOR.

[SARDOC]

Not forgetting any part of ES.  Most of our ES work (in my AOR is an AFAM, as you recall is an Air Force Assigned Mission,) controlled by the AF through the AFRCC through WIMRS by a CAP IC.  so when I do SAR, I am acting for the AF.  That does not make me AD, AFR, ANG, or any other acronym, but it is counted on AF reports for man-hours, etc. 

The BDU's are a tie to the AF.  One that hasn't been updated to match yet.  You apparently don't care for the visual tie to the AF.  I can't control that or change it.  Lets just agree to disagree, because IMO BBU's are just as bad for being seeing in my AOR.

I do agree to disagree.  In my AOR a good amount of our work is also for Air Force Assigned Missions.  The Air Force is currently content with us wearing Blue BDU's in the prosecution of these missions.  So my point is why not have a uniform that not only complies with one of the many currently authorized uniforms but one that ALL of our members can wear...thus the purpose of the UNIFORM.  In the meantime my AOR we also have an Agreement with the State Department of Emergency Management to assist with Disaster Relief, Missing person searches, communications support for Wildland fires among many other things.  However, instead of looking like the Militia we could look like Emergency Services people in my AOR.  The reasoning is that our mission is currently very different than that of the National Guard or State Defense Force who both can help restore order and support the State Police.

We currently have a very disorganized appearance when we have some members wearing Blue and some wearing Camouflage.  Some people think this means we are a different organization.  The explanation usually involves that we discriminate against the fat and fuzzies.  It's not that I don't want us to look like the Air Force, I'm proud of our Air Force Heritage.  I just don't think that needs to translate to a work utility uniform.  I think we need a uniform for organizational identification that all our members can wear and can reflect our current mission.  Besides, we don't look like the Air Force now anyway since they no longer utilize the BDU's. 

As far as uniforms for the Air Force Heritage I'm all for the entire organization wearing all approved variants of the other Air Force Style uniforms, I just don't think that translates to our mission working uniforms.

[SarDragon]

If you were wearing your required orange vest over your BDU's while you were in those woods, you would be seen.

I think that instead of wearing a required Orange Vest why not just adopt the california Wing Orange shirt uniform nationwide?

In the big picture, it won't work.

I've been in situations here in CA, primarily airshows, where we were specifically prohibited from wearing orange, to avoid confusion with event personnel. The folks wearing orange have specific duties, which are not among those assigned to CAP participants.

[SARDOC]

I've been in situations here in CA, primarily airshows, where we were specifically prohibited from wearing orange, to avoid confusion with event personnel. The folks wearing orange have specific duties, which are not among those assigned to CAP participants.

What if you guys were prohibited from wearing the Woodland pattern because they didn't want to get you confused with the airshow security personnel?

At the Airshows in my AOR they have never said this is what you can or can't wear, because most of the AirShow staff are wearing Incident Command type vests to indicate who was what and they could be spotted from the tower.  The Ground guides all wore Orange Vests...and that was only for arrivals and departures.  The rest of the weekend when the aircraft were static...you never saw any ground personnel like that.

I think with one weird airshow exception that it could work for the rest of the country including your part...just not in the Air show.  Some of the plane directors do wear Yellow jerseys here...but that doesn't mean nobody else can wear yellow.

[RiverAux]

Hmm, this appears to be new information.  I think most of us here were under the impression that the AF had total independent control over this issue and that it would only take an ok from them to authorize CAP to wear AF-style uniforms. 

Is this an existing generic DoD policy that prohibits others from wearing DoD uniforms that CAP has always gotten waivers from in regards to AF-style uniforms?  Or is this something new?

CAP has put out in releases and on the KB that the current restriction is DoD-based.  I have seen the relatively new (~2 years old?) memo from the Office of the SECDEF which fairly clearly excludes us.  While we can reasonably assume that the omission may have been inadvertent, at this point "it is what it is," and we need to either have the memo changed or a waiver granted. 

My opinion is that OSD will grant the waiver, but that means we first have to put together a packet for the OSD and route it through our AF colleagues for their concurrence.  But the AF quite rightly believes that they cannot independently approve CAP wearing the ABUs in contravention of DoD policy.

So there we are.

Are you referring to the KB answer that says that they can't issue these items to us?  As mentioned previously that wouldn't prohibit anyone from authorizing us to wear the uniform if purchased from some other source (which is the case with the vast majority of BDU-type uniforms owned by CAP members).

[Eclipse]

I have no doubt whatsoever that the conversations about our uniforms took place.

What is flabbergasting and indicative of our situation, is that Units are interested in entertaining this nonsense.

"Yeah, I suppose you can come and work for free, but only if you don't wear anything we don't like."

The uniform is the uniform, it comes with the "free".  No other orgs would entertain the idea that they'd have to have a custom uniform, of whatever flavor, on the member's dime, because someone benefiting from our services has some bizarre misunderstanding or issue with who we are.

You think the local PD/FD, Guard Unit, etc., would put up with that?

[a2capt]

All the air shows I've worked in the southern half of California, from Mojave, Edwards, to Gillespie, I've never heard of no orange.

We wear our uniform. It comes with us.

After the work is done, sometimes there's rewards, too. Like getting to go inside of SpaceShipOne and the White Knight. The cockpits really are alike

OTOH, for ES, i've not gotten the CalTrans uniform, and probably won't, which precludes me from ES ground work, unless the ground is the base perimeter, or walking to the aircraft. Oh well. There's nothing wrong with the ANSI spec orange vest.

I wonder if that "we can't play if we don't dress like them" applies to National Guard, and other active duty people, in time of need.

Beggars can't be choosers, though I realize that's not quite what's going on here. But the whole idea of "Uniform" is to be "UNIFORM", is it not? 

[SARDOC]

I wonder if that "we can't play if we don't dress like them" applies to National Guard, and other active duty people, in time of need.

Beggars can't be choosers, though I realize that's not quite what's going on here. But the whole idea of "Uniform" is to be "UNIFORM", is it not?

I think the National Guard will adopt whatever uniform gets the Mission Accomplished.  See the Eighth picture down

http://blogs.pjstar.com/eye/2012/06/18/wildfires-scorch-the-western-u-s/

http://www.nationalguard.mil/news/archives/2008/07/070708-Guard_forces.aspx

[a2capt]

Ah.. but those guys are still in green, and likely have all that stuff issued to them. That's their uniform for that job. Dark green isn't much different than the "cammo" argument. We're not going to the front lines of anything, except water lines, and our uniform is just fine for that "battle".

Ground team, UDF, ramp operations. Orange vest. Done.

[Eclipse]

There's a big difference between being there on orders, being paid, and being issued special-duty gear.

And showing up on your own nickel, your own time, with your personally purchased uniform, and being told
it is inappropriate.

[SARDOC]

Yeah, I'm not sold on that whole California themed you can't play if you aren't wearing the right colored clothes.  Those in California can correct me if I'm wrong, but if you are doing Ground Search and Rescue in California are you covered by the State's Workers Compensation plan?

If you are covered under the state's workers comp plan you are considered an employee even if you don't get a pay check.   If they require that you wear an Orange shirt, it's really no different than CAP requiring that you be in a Civil Air Patrol uniform to fly in one of our planes.

If you get covered by their insurance you have to follow their rules.  If that's not the case, I don't see how they can enforce it.

[Eclipse]

I doubt that would be the case for AFAMS, but regardless, does every other agency in CAWG, especially those covered, have to have a custom uniform?
I doubt it.

And, OK, if that's the case, then just approve the thing for general wear so members can just have one.

One of the issues here is the authority and deployment.  Most agencies, especially anything as big as CAP, get their taskings and orders
from above, not below or sideways.  They are part of the normal course of business and show up in whatever uniform their agency
dictates.

If we were actually part of the federal response scheme in more then a cursory way, things would be different.  You don't tell FEMA what to wear,
you thank them for their help (and then say it wasn't enough on the Sunday Shows).

[SARDOC]

From what I've read in some of the earlier threads, it doesn't look like the law in CA requires it.  It's that the California Wing of the CAP decided to have an alternate uniform in order to placate some of the Search and Rescue Authorities in the state who require it in a number of counties.  I guess it depends on if you have an MOA with a Local County to assist.

I'm not sure that I agree with that but I'm not involved with California Wing politics and the local politics that brought about this decision.  I just threw it out there as a hyperbolic example earlier not intending for a thread derailment on the CAWG uniform.

My ultimate point is just that I wish as wonderful an organization that I believe that the Civil Air Patrol is, that we could have one working uniform for our organization that fits the multipurpose role.  Of all the Uniforms in the current inventory we have I think that the Blue BDU is the most versatile and would suit that need.  You can work in an office, fly an airplane or work in rugged terrain and everyone in our organization is eligible to wear it without requiring a multi year process in order to propose, let an approving authority review it through a bureaucratic chain of uninterested parties.  When we can just go with a uniform everyone can already wear.  No new regulation required...it's already been done.  It's a Blue BDU which is worn by a number of other respectable ES agencies without the need for a Camo pattern that just makes us look like in my state the State Defense Force.  The transition just seems to be easier and it doesn't discriminate against the valuable fat and fuzzy members of our organization.

I know that some people think that we are somehow disrespecting the Air Force or the Air Force tradition by abandoning a uniform that the USAF has already abandoned...I really don't get it.  I think our work uniform should be a versatile work uniform.

And even elements within the USAF have at one time worn the Blue BDU..so I'll take that as honoring the Air Force heritage, while still meeting our needs.

[a2capt]

..and that CAWG derivative of the uniform has been on and off  a couple times in the past 8 years or so.

The other agencies that "require" it? Well, a similar orange shirt is their uniform.  It's not like we have -not- worked with these same agencies before, in some capacity.

Basically, the orange shirt can only be worn while on the sortie, not while sitting around the mission base, or by base staff at all, or enroute to / from the mission. So you report, get assigned, change the top, go - do the deal - come back, change it again. Or go out again. For UDF and Ground Team only. No one else can use it, and those two assignments require it. Cadets can use the orange vest, seniors can't. That's what the supplement regulation says.

Big hassle. The orange vest does the same job in a simpler manner, and if you have a thin hydration pack on, it can even go *over* that.

The BBDU isn't any more visible in the terrain, woods, etc. than the woodland pattern. It's dark material, and the search areas tend to be low light conditions, otherwise we're not exactly hiding anyway. 

[Private Investigator]

whatever