Politics...and not the CAP kind...

[Pump Scout]

I'm a big fan of the idea that the "hot issues topics" should be left at the door, for both cadets and SM's. While I know I'm not alone in that line of thinking, I also know there are some folks out there who seem to be unable to restrain themselves while at CAP functions. I love a good debate as much, or more than, the next guy, but CAP isn't the place for it.

I've found that the big three are religion, politics, and Apple-vs-PC/Android. That last one really gets people fired up for some reason.

[jimmydeanno]

I've always been so busy at meetings, I haven't been able to diverge into these topics.  You guys should get back to work! 

[denverpilot]

This is exactly the line of thinking I was referring to...sticking someone with a political label just because you don't agree with them.

Personally, I think the labels of "liberal" and "conservative" are a crock of Bravo Sierra in general, and bad for CAP interpersonal relations in particular.

It's a significant reason why we now must censor ourselves so much and can't have a real discourse like adults.

Someone wants you to believe when you mix Red at 51% and Blue at 49% (or vice-versa), you only get the 51% color in the end. 

The pretty digital map for that place, magically goes all to one color on election night.

Have we taken the concept of winning and losing to such an extreme in elections that we lost sight of the fact that we're still almost 50/50 in the end result?

A good question for cadets might be: Who benefits from such a thought process/doctrine?  Who might want to sell us such half-truths?

I don't work with cadets much, or even have kids, but I hope they get enough math to see how close the numbers really are and our similarities before our differences, instead of the "Red States" and "Blue States" certain people want to sell us as reality.

Hopefully that comment was a-political enough for y'all.

[Майор Хаткевич]

There are other places where our cadets can learn to debate, e.g., school!

where our children are indoctrinated to accept a liberal ideology? Where prayer is outlawed? Where most schools find the Pledge of Allegiance inappropriate?  My son was in a "competitive speech" class and was looked upon by his teacher as the devil himself because of his less than liberal views.....

And that is a classic example of why we should NEVER speak of political beliefs. Trust me, I am not disagreeing with you or really agreeing with you, and I am sure I know what you're getting at, but that's why. You're going to cause someone to pipe up and challenge you about your beliefs.

Lol.

No one outlawed prayer. Do it on your own time before class, at home, on the bus etc. What HAS been done is protect my right NOT to pray at a special prayer designated time at school.

As for "liberal" ideology? I guess it's a true statement that conservatism, which stands to bring about change slowly/not at all would be against anything that says something in this country is/was wrong. Calling out mainly conservative lies about a president? Clearly a liberal agenda. Calling out media bias, but having buttloads of Fox Material to reference? Clearly Lib agenda. Saying America was wrong for Slavery, Jim Crow, opposing Civil Rights Act? Clearly lib agenda.

Sorry, but its enough that crazy conservatives in TX are able to write out Thomas Jefferson out of the History books. I want my future kids to LEARN what REALLY happened. To LEARN to THINK. Not believe in a propaganda make-believe world where Ronald Reagan was the second coming of Christ.

[Devil Doc]

Theres an good book on the American Education System from Charlotte Iserbyt "The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America" good read.

[AngelWings]

There are other places where our cadets can learn to debate, e.g., school!

where our children are indoctrinated to accept a liberal ideology? Where prayer is outlawed? Where most schools find the Pledge of Allegiance inappropriate?  My son was in a "competitive speech" class and was looked upon by his teacher as the devil himself because of his less than liberal views.....

And that is a classic example of why we should NEVER speak of political beliefs. Trust me, I am not disagreeing with you or really agreeing with you, and I am sure I know what you're getting at, but that's why. You're going to cause someone to pipe up and challenge you about your beliefs.

Lol.

No one outlawed prayer. Do it on your own time before class, at home, on the bus etc. What HAS been done is protect my right NOT to pray at a special prayer designated time at school.

As for "liberal" ideology? I guess it's a true statement that conservatism, which stands to bring about change slowly/not at all would be against anything that says something in this country is/was wrong. Calling out mainly conservative lies about a president? Clearly a liberal agenda. Calling out media bias, but having buttloads of Fox Material to reference? Clearly Lib agenda. Saying America was wrong for Slavery, Jim Crow, opposing Civil Rights Act? Clearly lib agenda.

Sorry, but its enough that crazy conservatives in TX are able to write out Thomas Jefferson out of the History books. I want my future kids to LEARN what REALLY happened. To LEARN to THINK. Not believe in a propaganda make-believe world where Ronald Reagan was the second coming of Christ.

You're proof of how what I just said is 100% true.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'm of the mindset that BS needs to be countered. Too many people don't bother or check facts for themselves.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I'm of the mindset that BS needs to be countered. Too many people don't bother or check facts for themselves.

I am too, and I've done it both online and in person.  I have had people online threaten to track me down and do away with me over political beliefs, which I put about as much stock in as a silent fart.  It's easy to talk tough online but quite another to do it in person.

However...I don't want it in CAP.

[JeffDG]

I guess I have a slight advantage.

I have the excuse of "As someone who is not a US Citizen, I feel it is inappropriate for me to tell US Citizens how they should conduct their affairs on the political stage, now if you'll excuse me, there's a doughnut over there with my name on it."

All well and good...until someone asks you, "well, what about Stephen Harper's chances in the next election, or the fact that the PQ is back in power in Quebec?" J/K.

Don't rub it in...I can't vote there either, although I'm not shy about engaging in political discussion with my Canadian friends...and as for PM Harper, I think he's doing a helluva job, and I hope the PQ achieves their goal of an independent Quebec...they suck so much money out of the rest of the country it would be a huge boon for the rest of Canada.

[Critical AOA]

When it comes to political conversation, just like all conversation, there are simple rules.
1.    If you have something to say, say it!  Just be prepared for the consequences.
2.   If you disagree with what has been said, counter it by speaking up.  Just be prepared for the consequences.
3.   If the potential consequences are too much for you, don't engage.
4.   If the conversation makes you uncomfortable, walk away or try to gently steer the conversation in a new direction.

Note: The consequences might be; having to listen to a counter argument, having your point of view proven wrong or ridiculed, being the object of scorn for your point of view, being berated by an obnoxious person with a different point of view, being called names such as neocon or libtard (I've been called both!), etc.  You could even lose a "friend" or two.  Oh well.

Of course the consequences could also be a polite and healthy discussion of the topic, you might learn something, you might change or modify your point of view, the other guy might do the same, you politely end the discussion but maintain your mutual respect for each other and remain as friends, you bring about world peace and are revered for all eternity.

Regardless, there is nothing wrong with engaging in discourse about either politics or religion even in so called polite society.   I would steer clear of the PC vs. Apple debate however.   Those subjects do bring out the fanatics.

[Eclipse]

When it comes to political conversation, just like all conversation, there are simple rules.

The rules for CAP are even simpler - don't.

Ever.

1.   If you have something to say, say it!  Just be prepared for the consequences.

CAP is not a personal forum.  Nothing should be "said" that has consequences.

2.   If you disagree with what has been said, counter it by speaking up.  Just be prepared for the consequences.

See above.  This just makes it worse.

3.   If the potential consequences are too much for you, don't engage.

This implies a lack of fortitude if you don't espouse your views.  Your political or religious views
are irrelevant in CAP.  Keep it to yourself.

4.   If the conversation makes you uncomfortable, walk away or try to gently steer the conversation in a new direction.

There should be no conversations within a CAP context that make anyone uncomfortable.

Which is the entirety of the apparently too-subtle point here. 

No one cares, and it's not your place or the function of CAP to change that.

CAP is not a discussion forum, a platform, or a caucus. We have a very specific mission and reason for existing, and
what you do, feel, or think outside that lane is irrelevant, and needs to be kept to yourself.

As long as you perform your duties properly, I don't care who you vote for, worship, or which way you lean.
If you have an accommodation that needs to be met for you to serve, I'll do what I can to accommodate it, privately,
and beyond that it's no one's business.

Of course the consequences could also be a polite and healthy discussion of the topic, you might learn something, you might change or modify your point of view, the other guy might do the same, you politely end the discussion but maintain your mutual respect for each other and remain as friends, you bring about world peace and are revered for all eternity.

Regardless, there is nothing wrong with engaging in discourse about either politics or religion even in so called polite society. 

That the consequences might be positive, are irrelevant.  Not only is the risk fairly high that they won't be, or that others less inclined
to polite discourse might not feel the same way. It doesn't matter, since it's no appropriate.

Period.

[Critical AOA]

When it comes to political conversation, just like all conversation, there are simple rules.

The rules for CAP are even simpler - don't.

Ever.

Can you cite the regulation for us that states that rule?

[johnnyb47]

When it comes to political conversation, just like all conversation, there are simple rules.

The rules for CAP are even simpler - don't.

Ever.

Can you cite the regulation for us that states that rule?

If it isn't allowed by CAPM39-1 then it isn't allowed.

[johnnyb47]

When it comes to political conversation, just like all conversation, there are simple rules.

The rules for CAP are even simpler - don't.

Ever.

Can you cite the regulation for us that states that rule?

If it isn't allowed by CAPM39-1 then it isn't allowed.

Of course my own crack got me to thinking:
Table 1-1 of CAPM39-1 Reads (X's in DO NOT WEAR):
when participating in activities such as public speeches, interviews,
picket lines, marches, rallies, or in any public demonstration not
approved by the Air Force. Wearing the uniform may imply sanction
of the cause for which the demonstration or activity is conducted.

when furthering private employment or commercial interests, if
official sponsorship might be inferred.

under any circumstance that would tend to bring discredit or reproach
upon the uniform.

So i looked up the POLITICAL ACTIVITIES BY MEMBERS OF THE US AIR FORCE

http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI51-902.pdf

Interesting reading.....

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^Of course, someone will refute you by saying "WE AREN'T THE AIR FORCE!  WE'RE CIVILIAN VOLUNTEERS!"

[Critical AOA]

^^Of course, someone will refute you by saying "WE AREN'T THE AIR FORCE!  WE'RE CIVILIAN VOLUNTEERS!"

And they would be correct.

[ZigZag911]

^^Of course, someone will refute you by saying "WE AREN'T THE AIR FORCE!  WE'RE CIVILIAN VOLUNTEERS!"

And they would be correct.

Civilian volunteers of the US Air Force Auxiliary, from many walks of life, backgrounds, diverse viewpoints, working together toward common goals for the common good...plenty to do right there, seriously, let's leave partisan political discussions outside the CAP meeting place.

[Walkman]

^^Of course, someone will refute you by saying "WE AREN'T THE AIR FORCE!  WE'RE CIVILIAN VOLUNTEERS!"

And they would be correct.

You are right, of course. EXCEPT, those that wear the USAF style uniforms are frequently looked at as AD by the public. It wouldn't hurt to follow the AF's guidance on these kinds of things while in that particular set of uniforms.

[johnnyb47]

While we obviously arent bound by the UCMJ we ARE bound by "follow or we can kick you out" regulations that are pretty clear on (Paraphrasing a bit): "Don't talk about or engage in politics in uniform whenever the Air Force says it's not OK for their guys to do it."
When you look up when and what politicing or discussion of politics is allowed by the Air Force it's pretty much never when in uniform or on base.
There are windows of time and discussion that are allowable, of course but I invite you to create the flow chart based off CAP and AF regulation that we'd need to follow to conduct ourselves accordingly.

[Eclipse]

While we obviously arent bound by the UCMJ we ARE bound by "follow or we can kick you out" regulations that are pretty clear on (Paraphrasing a bit): "Don't talk about or engage in politics in uniform whenever the Air Force says it's not OK for their guys to do it."
When you look up when and what politicing or discussion of politics is allowed by the Air Force it's pretty much never when in uniform or on base.
There are windows of time and discussion that are allowable, of course but I invite you to create the flow chart based off CAP and AF regulation that we'd need to follow to conduct ourselves accordingly.

+1 - and that doesn't change if you're whites or a golf shirt.