Politics...and not the CAP kind...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I am not talking about the kind of politics that unfortunately pervades CAP; i.e., the GOB network, etc.

I am talking about politics, as in the kind that has got our country so divided along ideological lines; i.e., the whole "liberal v. conservative" Bravo Sierra.

CAP is supposed to be an apolitical organisation.  We are all supposed to be people who serve in CAP for love of country and community and proudly wear the uniform regardless of political beliefs.  I know that, and in a perfect world there would be no problems within CAP with such matters.

Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world, and people have opinions.

Especially with this being an election year, and probably the bitterest election year I can recall in my lifetime, it seems like a lot of people (aided and abetted by their favourite TV/radio mouthpieces of various persuasions) are really airing those views.

Some of those people are within CAP.

I am not one of them.  I have a candidate's bumper sticker on my car, but that is it.  I don't talk about it at all when I am at any CAP related activity.

So, my question is, how to handle it when a discussion turns political...especially when you're in the minority view and those fellow CAP members around you are becoming quite vocal in favour of one position, and equally vocal against another?

[a2capt]

There is no Right turn. I usually take it as a cue that I probably had something else to be doing in the first place ...

....and that becomes an action item. It's pointless.
religion and politics
...and be good and ready to answer politely what asked if he cares to say why.

[Eclipse]

I haven't found myself in that situation, but if I did I would tell them to knock it off.

[CAP4117]

I make it a policy not to discuss politics whenever in any sort of uniform (Red Cross, CAP, CERT, etc.). If people around me are doing it, I normally just don't engage.

[Garibaldi]

I don't know what the personal political leanings of the members in my unit are, nor do I care. DADT, in this case, is a good thing. However, should the conversation turn to the future of our country, economy and whatnot, I would simply remind folks that this is not the proper forum for that sort of discussion, be it a CAP meeting, GT training, or our upcoming awards banquet. Like I said in a different thread, internal politics aside, CAP is not a political organization, and cannot publicly state support for one party or another, or one candidate or another, or one cause or another.

Generally, though, everyone is pretty good about not discussing politics in our meetings.

[LGM30GMCC]

If its starting to get out of hand. 'I really think we need to get back to discussing X Y and Z.'

Or...if you want to start a different fire and let them vent.

"What do we think about this uniform combination or idea?" 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

When it comes to politics, I stay clear of any discussion , it just turns into argument almost every time.

However, if it comes up at any function where we represent CAP, even civilian clothing during PT, I don't like it happening, for the simple fact that anyone can ask who we are, and when we tell them we are the Civil Air Patrol, we are immediately branded as supporting that guy or idea as a whole. Just like any public service outside of law enforcement, we should not be airing our ideals, aside from morals. It does no good for any involved.

Just make it an SOP, that it's not brought up during functions, if you aren't in that position, propose it.

[Spaceman3750]

I do the same thing I do at work... Disengage from the conversation. If it turns heated or starts bothering others, I would politely ask them to discontinue it while at a CAP activity.

I'm a political moderate, which usually means I am unwelcome in such discussions anyways .

[ZigZag911]

This is one respect in which CAP should mirror regular military practice -- politics is not an appropriate topic in any situation directly involving CAP. Experienced members, particularly commanders, should make this clear to all personnel, politely but firmly. Explain that it is military custom (which, as I understand it, is the case.)

If seniors socialize on their own time and want to spoil a good time discussing these dilemmas, that's completely different.

[Walkman]

During the last presidential election I had to remind a few cadets that partisan political talk wasn't appropriate for a CAP event. I also reminded them that the whoever would be elected would be the Commander-in-Chief, and when in uniform to keep that in mind.

(Before the flames start: I know POTUS isn't in our direct CoC in the same manner as the RM. I brought it out because we all need to be aware of how we are perceived while in uniform.)

We've had a few scenarios in our recent CharDev sessions where the situation discussed is part of an outside political issue. In order to prevent these devolving into the wrong kind of debate, I tell the cadets to consider their personal code of ethics & beliefs and how they might fit into the larger picture. Without specifying an political party or stance, or supporting any particular view, I remind those that can vote this year that it's their duty to do careful research during an election and be an informed voter. So far, despite a few cadets that tend to be outspoken, we haven't had any CharDev class get into partisan politics.

I haven't run into any political talk during a CAP event among SMs yet, for which I'm grateful. Everyone in my unit seems to do a good job of keeping this in their proper place.

[Nathan]

We're kind in a weird situation. We're trying to teach the cadets to be good citizens, which means teaching them to digest the issues and make informed decisions at the voting booth. On the other hand, we apparently think it would be destructive to use CAP as a way to practice this type of critical thinking, even though the cadet program is bascially designed to be a safe environment in which to practice real-world skills.

So we end up spending all of our time teaching them to think critically about hypotheticals and situations which rarely happen, but when they want to engage on issues that are affecting them right now (and that they may even be able to vote on, or will be able to soon), we hush them up and tell them that it's not appropriate.

Hrm.

Some people "maintain discipline and neutrality" by cutting off all discussion of politically-charged material completely. Others, like myself, see these situations to be excellent, tailor-made scenarios to practice critical thinking, communication, listening skills, and respect, and feel it's far better to monitor them carefully. We allow them to be exposed to viewpoints that differ from their own, because that builds open-minded people who understand the world outside of their own perspective.

At the end of the day, if a civilized political debate causes a rift in the ranks, then it's a failure of the leadership to properly enforce respect and discipline. Squelching all comments about the real-world scenarios we're supposedly teaching them to handle is kind of counterproductive to our goal of creating dynamic citizens, isn't it?

[Nathan]

It isn't letting me edit my last post, but I am differentiating between using debate as a teaching tool and all-out battles between SM's in the back room, so don't start raging under the impression that I am supporting unrestricted behaviors in uniform.

[Eclipse]

Not discussing politics or religion has been a tenant of polite society for centuries, with good reason.

CAP is not going to "fix" that just because we have lofty goals for CDI discussions.

I've seen an off-handed comment about one or the other (or these days both), wreck the esprit-de-corps of a unit in a single sentence.
Public insults regarding POTUS seems to be in vogue for the last several administrations - I don't care >who< it is, or what your views are,
he's still POTUS.  Probably my favorite are the insulting "fax-poop" emails sent to CAP mailing lists.

The other practical issue is that the average cadets, especially the younger ones, are not likely to be well-informed enough
about these issues to have a legitimate personal opinion - they are most likely just to regurgitate what they have seen offhandedly
on FB, or 1/2 heard mom & dad discussing.  In which case you're not having a fact-based discussion about the issue, you're basically
just arguing with someone who has no personal opinion, but will support "whatever dad thinks".

CAP has plenty of important things to discuss with cadets that they actually care about and will affect them personally and soon. 
On the senior side, I do not care or want to know about anyone else's personal opinion regarding politics or religion.

CAP is not the appropriate place for these discussions, and the risk for both cadets and seniors is the "bully pulpit", especially for
cadets.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

These have all, in the main, been worthy responses, most of which echo my own beliefs.  Thank you.

My dad always taught me that if you get started on politics and/or religion (and the two often intertwine), eventually someone is going to get mad and things go downhill from there.

I was also taught that the President is the President and worthy of respect because of the office s/he holds, kind of a "salute the rank not the person" situation.  Regardless if we continue with President Obama or elect a President Romney (or even someone else) in November, that does not change as far as I'm concerned.

As far as cadets go...I don't think it's the best idea to try and "educate" them politically in CAP.  I think that's better reserved for Social Studies classes at school.  Whenever I am asked by a cadet, my standard response is "when you turn 18, register to vote and exercise that right."  I don't particularly care what candidate/party anyone in CAP supports.

Again, yes, I know we are not covered by the same strictures of the UCMJ regarding disrespect to the CinC that the RealMilitary is, but we should endeavour to voluntarily appear as apolitical as possible, within our organisation and to the outside world.

The bumper sticker on my car I have is as a private citizen.  It is not intended to connote CAP/AF endorsement, even though a CAP officer is driving the car.

A very disturbing thing happened to my wife a few months ago while she was in a drive-through at McDonalds.  She has a similar bumper sticker and a bunch of loudmouths in the car behind her started yelling abuse at her for it...I wish I had been there, because likely had she not been alone, they wouldn't have had the guts to do that.  It disturbs me that political discourse has come to this, where one's choice of candidate/party supposedly indicates their character, patriotism or lack thereof.

It's horrible that it's that way at all...I hope it doesn't get that way in CAP.

[♠SARKID♠]

So, my question is, how to handle it when a discussion turns political...especially when you're in the minority view and those fellow CAP members around you are becoming quite vocal in favour of one position, and equally vocal against another?

I generally start talking about the imaginary abscess under my arm that I named Chuck.  Stops the conversation dead.

[Al Sayre]

I generally try to limit the political stuff to those things that directly affect CAP  For example: "Ask your congress people to support the gold medal for our WWII members.", or "We probably won't be seeing much in the o'flight  or training budgets until after the elections."

[JeffDG]

I guess I have a slight advantage.

I have the excuse of "As someone who is not a US Citizen, I feel it is inappropriate for me to tell US Citizens how they should conduct their affairs on the political stage, now if you'll excuse me, there's a doughnut over there with my name on it."

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I guess I have a slight advantage.

I have the excuse of "As someone who is not a US Citizen, I feel it is inappropriate for me to tell US Citizens how they should conduct their affairs on the political stage, now if you'll excuse me, there's a doughnut over there with my name on it."

All well and good...until someone asks you, "well, what about Stephen Harper's chances in the next election, or the fact that the PQ is back in power in Quebec?" J/K.

I generally start talking about the imaginary abscess under my arm that I named Chuck.  Stops the conversation dead.

Nice one.  I wonder if it would work with describing flatulence...

[Garibaldi]

"So what do you think of Candidate A..."
"Oh no...my explosive diarrhea! GANGWAY!!!"

[Nathan]

Ah, I see. So the consensus is, "We never learned how to discuss as adults situations that affect the entire country, so we should not be attempting to teach the next generation of adults and voters how to do such things so that maybe our country has a better chance of engaging in more mature debates about politically sensitive subjects in the future and have some hope of actually solving these problems, even though one of the goals of the cadet program is to build dynamic citizens and leaders in our country."

Got it. 

[mikebank]

In our last meeting, last month my Squadron Commander made a point in saying something about the subject to make sure that ended right there, there were a few comment in a couple of meetings. before.

Here in Missouri that kind of thing can get out of hand pretty quickly...

[RogueLeader]

Ah, I see. So the consensus is, "We never learned how to discuss as adults situations that affect the entire country, so we should not be attempting to teach the next generation of adults and voters how to do such things so that maybe our country has a better chance of engaging in more mature debates about politically sensitive subjects in the future and have some hope of actually solving these problems, even though one of the goals of the cadet program is to build dynamic citizens and leaders in our country."

Got it. 

No. The consensus is that "It is not appropriate here in CAP."  If you want to discuss it outside of that, fair game.  Just don't do it in uniform please.

[Critical AOA]

Ah, I see. So the consensus is, "We never learned how to discuss as adults situations that affect the entire country, so we should not be attempting to teach the next generation of adults and voters how to do such things so that maybe our country has a better chance of engaging in more mature debates about politically sensitive subjects in the future and have some hope of actually solving these problems, even though one of the goals of the cadet program is to build dynamic citizens and leaders in our country."

Got it. 

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[Eclipse]

Ah, I see. So the consensus is, "We never learned how to discuss as adults situations that affect the entire country, so we should not be attempting to teach the next generation of adults and voters how to do such things so that maybe our country has a better chance of engaging in more mature debates about politically sensitive subjects in the future and have some hope of actually solving these problems, even though one of the goals of the cadet program is to build dynamic citizens and leaders in our country."

No.  It is inappropriate in CAP.

Period.

[Critical AOA]

CAP as an organization may be apolitical and that is understandable.  CAP as an organization should not voice support of a candidate or party or voice disdain for another.  However, there is absolutely no reason or expectation that the members themselves be apolitical.  Nor should they be expected to refrain from political conversation when with fellow CAP members, at a CAP activity or even when in uniform.  The only expectation is to do so with decorum and civility. 

[AngelWings]

There is no benefit to talking about political beliefs. You do not craft leaders by telling them what they should believe in, but by allowing them to find the reason why they need or want to believe in something. Unless the cadets are your kids (and you do it on non CAP business), you have NO right to talk about political beliefs with them (except in a few rare cases).

There is a fine line between discussing actual politics (the processes involved in it, the positions, etc.) and beliefs (hot key topics, who's better and why, etc.). Most people do not like discussing political process and its history. They like to talk about their beliefs.

CAP is a professional organization that provides a valuable service to the country unparalled by any other organization. CAP is NOT CNN, Fox, MSNBC, etc. Save it when you're drinking a bud with yours buds or something. Or with the few CAP members you're extremely close with and know generally what they believe.

The heated discussions and the lack of respect that could develope between two or more people is enough to say we should not discuss politics.

[Майор Хаткевич]

CAP as an organization may be apolitical and that is understandable.  CAP as an organization should not voice support of a candidate or party or voice disdain for another.  However, there is absolutely no reason or expectation that the members themselves be apolitical.  Nor should they be expected to refrain from political conversation when with fellow CAP members, at a CAP activity or even when in uniform.  The only expectation is to do so with decorum and civility.

The problem with that is that it doesn't happen. "That mooslim ain't mah president!" is not a way to start any conversation.

[Nathan]

Ah, I see. So the consensus is, "We never learned how to discuss as adults situations that affect the entire country, so we should not be attempting to teach the next generation of adults and voters how to do such things so that maybe our country has a better chance of engaging in more mature debates about politically sensitive subjects in the future and have some hope of actually solving these problems, even though one of the goals of the cadet program is to build dynamic citizens and leaders in our country."

No.  It is inappropriate in CAP.

Period.

That's not a logical argument. Which maybe you would know if you had been taught how to make proper arguments as a CAP cadet.

[ZigZag911]

If you look at ANY US military officer's guide it counsels against discussing politics, religion and certain other topics within the unit.

Experience has taught that these conversations often create unnecessary disharmony within an organization.

There are other places where our cadets can learn to debate, e.g., school!

[Nathan]

If you look at ANY US military officer's guide it counsels against discussing politics, religion and certain other topics within the unit.

Experience has taught that these conversations often create unnecessary disharmony within an organization.

The job of the military is very different from the job of the cadet program. Soldiers are expected to kill people and break things. Debates about politics lend nothing toward that mission.

Cadets are expected to become dynamic leaders and citizens. Such a goal would be achieved by ensuring the cadets are educated on the issues currently facing the nation, which is part of being a good citizen. If cadets flounder around and are unable to think critically about real issues that our country is dealing with, how exactly are they becoming good citizens?

[cap235629]

There are other places where our cadets can learn to debate, e.g., school!

where our children are indoctrinated to accept a liberal ideology? Where prayer is outlawed? Where most schools find the Pledge of Allegiance inappropriate?  My son was in a "competitive speech" class and was looked upon by his teacher as the devil himself because of his less than liberal views.....

[Stonewall]

I found this to be a great tool if you're undecided.  http://www.isidewith.com/presidential-election-quiz?from=88067440

Not knowing fully where each candidate sits on a number of subjects, I was worried about my gut feeling on who I would vote for.  Fortunately, for me, my gut was accurate by a land slide.  I shared this with a number of people who were planning to vote opposite of me [for the wrong reasons] and they were shocked where their interests and concerns for the nation favored a candidate they were against.

[AngelWings]

There are other places where our cadets can learn to debate, e.g., school!

where our children are indoctrinated to accept a liberal ideology? Where prayer is outlawed? Where most schools find the Pledge of Allegiance inappropriate?  My son was in a "competitive speech" class and was looked upon by his teacher as the devil himself because of his less than liberal views.....

And that is a classic example of why we should NEVER speak of political beliefs. Trust me, I am not disagreeing with you or really agreeing with you, and I am sure I know what you're getting at, but that's why. You're going to cause someone to pipe up and challenge you about your beliefs.

[Eclipse]

That's not a logical argument. Which maybe you would know if you had been taught how to make proper arguments as a CAP cadet.

That's because it's an experiential statement of fact.

Something you'll understand after you've had some.

[Nathan]

That's not a logical argument. Which maybe you would know if you had been taught how to make proper arguments as a CAP cadet.

That's because it's an experiential statement of fact.

Something you'll understand after you've had some.

There's a good reason we don't rely on anecdotes in academia. A single person's perspective of the world is not how the world works.

Such a logical fallacy, by the way, is something we could teach cadets to avoid if they were allowed to make arguments that could produce such error.

[Eclipse]

Acamedia is your issue here.

Hint: The real world doesn't care what the books say.

It's also not a single person's perspective, and in fact, your reactions here are the text book example as to why these discussions are verboten among friends, family, business, and especially CAP.

[Nathan]

Acamedia is your issue here.

Hint: The real world doesn't care what the books say.

It's also not a single person's perspective, and in fact, your reactions here are the text book example as to why these discussions are verboten among friends, family, business, and especially CAP.

Whoa whoa whoa... I thought that you didn't trust the text books... so. why are you paying attention to my "text book reactions"? 

You're on a roll today.

But I'm not going to get into a debate about you over the value of education.

[SarDragon]

I think we're getting a lot of bypassing here.

We can teach the cadets about opinions and discussions without getting into specific A is better than B is better than C arguments. Throw in some info on logical fallacies without too much "deer in the headlights" reaction, and they will have a good foundation on "here's how".

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

There are other places where our cadets can learn to debate, e.g., school!

where our children are indoctrinated to accept a liberal ideology? Where prayer is outlawed? Where most schools find the Pledge of Allegiance inappropriate?  My son was in a "competitive speech" class and was looked upon by his teacher as the devil himself because of his less than liberal views.....

And that is a classic example of why we should NEVER speak of political beliefs. Trust me, I am not disagreeing with you or really agreeing with you, and I am sure I know what you're getting at, but that's why. You're going to cause someone to pipe up and challenge you about your beliefs.

This is exactly the line of thinking I was referring to...sticking someone with a political label just because you don't agree with them.

Personally, I think the labels of "liberal" and "conservative" are a crock of Bravo Sierra in general, and bad for CAP interpersonal relations in particular.

[ProdigalJim]

You know, just as a coincidence, a CAP acquaintance (of the sort who just recently discovered this thing called "The Internet") on Monday spammed a unit membership list, along with a few of his own friends and family, with one of those periodic emails that bounces around every political season -- the kind of "outraged" or "shocked" message that generally started eight or 10 years ago, a few dates and details change but the gist is the same, and you go on Snopes to find it's bunk.

I reminded him of this very point, that political stuff is inappropriate *in a CAP context* not because it's not a worthy discussion but because of the perceived pressure to conform to a set of views in an organization in which lines of authority are fairly strict. No need to get people thinking there's a litmus test for participation or advancement.

I also pointed him privately to 128 (no joke) separate links debunking the mythology he was sending around...haven't heard back yet. 

[Pump Scout]

I'm a big fan of the idea that the "hot issues topics" should be left at the door, for both cadets and SM's. While I know I'm not alone in that line of thinking, I also know there are some folks out there who seem to be unable to restrain themselves while at CAP functions. I love a good debate as much, or more than, the next guy, but CAP isn't the place for it.

I've found that the big three are religion, politics, and Apple-vs-PC/Android. That last one really gets people fired up for some reason.

[jimmydeanno]

I've always been so busy at meetings, I haven't been able to diverge into these topics.  You guys should get back to work! 

[denverpilot]

This is exactly the line of thinking I was referring to...sticking someone with a political label just because you don't agree with them.

Personally, I think the labels of "liberal" and "conservative" are a crock of Bravo Sierra in general, and bad for CAP interpersonal relations in particular.

It's a significant reason why we now must censor ourselves so much and can't have a real discourse like adults.

Someone wants you to believe when you mix Red at 51% and Blue at 49% (or vice-versa), you only get the 51% color in the end. 

The pretty digital map for that place, magically goes all to one color on election night.

Have we taken the concept of winning and losing to such an extreme in elections that we lost sight of the fact that we're still almost 50/50 in the end result?

A good question for cadets might be: Who benefits from such a thought process/doctrine?  Who might want to sell us such half-truths?

I don't work with cadets much, or even have kids, but I hope they get enough math to see how close the numbers really are and our similarities before our differences, instead of the "Red States" and "Blue States" certain people want to sell us as reality.

Hopefully that comment was a-political enough for y'all.

[Майор Хаткевич]

There are other places where our cadets can learn to debate, e.g., school!

where our children are indoctrinated to accept a liberal ideology? Where prayer is outlawed? Where most schools find the Pledge of Allegiance inappropriate?  My son was in a "competitive speech" class and was looked upon by his teacher as the devil himself because of his less than liberal views.....

And that is a classic example of why we should NEVER speak of political beliefs. Trust me, I am not disagreeing with you or really agreeing with you, and I am sure I know what you're getting at, but that's why. You're going to cause someone to pipe up and challenge you about your beliefs.

Lol.

No one outlawed prayer. Do it on your own time before class, at home, on the bus etc. What HAS been done is protect my right NOT to pray at a special prayer designated time at school.

As for "liberal" ideology? I guess it's a true statement that conservatism, which stands to bring about change slowly/not at all would be against anything that says something in this country is/was wrong. Calling out mainly conservative lies about a president? Clearly a liberal agenda. Calling out media bias, but having buttloads of Fox Material to reference? Clearly Lib agenda. Saying America was wrong for Slavery, Jim Crow, opposing Civil Rights Act? Clearly lib agenda.

Sorry, but its enough that crazy conservatives in TX are able to write out Thomas Jefferson out of the History books. I want my future kids to LEARN what REALLY happened. To LEARN to THINK. Not believe in a propaganda make-believe world where Ronald Reagan was the second coming of Christ.

[Devil Doc]

Theres an good book on the American Education System from Charlotte Iserbyt "The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America" good read.

[AngelWings]

There are other places where our cadets can learn to debate, e.g., school!

where our children are indoctrinated to accept a liberal ideology? Where prayer is outlawed? Where most schools find the Pledge of Allegiance inappropriate?  My son was in a "competitive speech" class and was looked upon by his teacher as the devil himself because of his less than liberal views.....

And that is a classic example of why we should NEVER speak of political beliefs. Trust me, I am not disagreeing with you or really agreeing with you, and I am sure I know what you're getting at, but that's why. You're going to cause someone to pipe up and challenge you about your beliefs.

Lol.

No one outlawed prayer. Do it on your own time before class, at home, on the bus etc. What HAS been done is protect my right NOT to pray at a special prayer designated time at school.

As for "liberal" ideology? I guess it's a true statement that conservatism, which stands to bring about change slowly/not at all would be against anything that says something in this country is/was wrong. Calling out mainly conservative lies about a president? Clearly a liberal agenda. Calling out media bias, but having buttloads of Fox Material to reference? Clearly Lib agenda. Saying America was wrong for Slavery, Jim Crow, opposing Civil Rights Act? Clearly lib agenda.

Sorry, but its enough that crazy conservatives in TX are able to write out Thomas Jefferson out of the History books. I want my future kids to LEARN what REALLY happened. To LEARN to THINK. Not believe in a propaganda make-believe world where Ronald Reagan was the second coming of Christ.

You're proof of how what I just said is 100% true.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'm of the mindset that BS needs to be countered. Too many people don't bother or check facts for themselves.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I'm of the mindset that BS needs to be countered. Too many people don't bother or check facts for themselves.

I am too, and I've done it both online and in person.  I have had people online threaten to track me down and do away with me over political beliefs, which I put about as much stock in as a silent fart.  It's easy to talk tough online but quite another to do it in person.

However...I don't want it in CAP.

[JeffDG]

I guess I have a slight advantage.

I have the excuse of "As someone who is not a US Citizen, I feel it is inappropriate for me to tell US Citizens how they should conduct their affairs on the political stage, now if you'll excuse me, there's a doughnut over there with my name on it."

All well and good...until someone asks you, "well, what about Stephen Harper's chances in the next election, or the fact that the PQ is back in power in Quebec?" J/K.

Don't rub it in...I can't vote there either, although I'm not shy about engaging in political discussion with my Canadian friends...and as for PM Harper, I think he's doing a helluva job, and I hope the PQ achieves their goal of an independent Quebec...they suck so much money out of the rest of the country it would be a huge boon for the rest of Canada.

[Critical AOA]

When it comes to political conversation, just like all conversation, there are simple rules.
1.    If you have something to say, say it!  Just be prepared for the consequences.
2.   If you disagree with what has been said, counter it by speaking up.  Just be prepared for the consequences.
3.   If the potential consequences are too much for you, don't engage.
4.   If the conversation makes you uncomfortable, walk away or try to gently steer the conversation in a new direction.

Note: The consequences might be; having to listen to a counter argument, having your point of view proven wrong or ridiculed, being the object of scorn for your point of view, being berated by an obnoxious person with a different point of view, being called names such as neocon or libtard (I've been called both!), etc.  You could even lose a "friend" or two.  Oh well.

Of course the consequences could also be a polite and healthy discussion of the topic, you might learn something, you might change or modify your point of view, the other guy might do the same, you politely end the discussion but maintain your mutual respect for each other and remain as friends, you bring about world peace and are revered for all eternity.

Regardless, there is nothing wrong with engaging in discourse about either politics or religion even in so called polite society.   I would steer clear of the PC vs. Apple debate however.   Those subjects do bring out the fanatics.

[Eclipse]

When it comes to political conversation, just like all conversation, there are simple rules.

The rules for CAP are even simpler - don't.

Ever.

1.   If you have something to say, say it!  Just be prepared for the consequences.

CAP is not a personal forum.  Nothing should be "said" that has consequences.

2.   If you disagree with what has been said, counter it by speaking up.  Just be prepared for the consequences.

See above.  This just makes it worse.

3.   If the potential consequences are too much for you, don't engage.

This implies a lack of fortitude if you don't espouse your views.  Your political or religious views
are irrelevant in CAP.  Keep it to yourself.

4.   If the conversation makes you uncomfortable, walk away or try to gently steer the conversation in a new direction.

There should be no conversations within a CAP context that make anyone uncomfortable.

Which is the entirety of the apparently too-subtle point here. 

No one cares, and it's not your place or the function of CAP to change that.

CAP is not a discussion forum, a platform, or a caucus. We have a very specific mission and reason for existing, and
what you do, feel, or think outside that lane is irrelevant, and needs to be kept to yourself.

As long as you perform your duties properly, I don't care who you vote for, worship, or which way you lean.
If you have an accommodation that needs to be met for you to serve, I'll do what I can to accommodate it, privately,
and beyond that it's no one's business.

Of course the consequences could also be a polite and healthy discussion of the topic, you might learn something, you might change or modify your point of view, the other guy might do the same, you politely end the discussion but maintain your mutual respect for each other and remain as friends, you bring about world peace and are revered for all eternity.

Regardless, there is nothing wrong with engaging in discourse about either politics or religion even in so called polite society. 

That the consequences might be positive, are irrelevant.  Not only is the risk fairly high that they won't be, or that others less inclined
to polite discourse might not feel the same way. It doesn't matter, since it's no appropriate.

Period.

[Critical AOA]

When it comes to political conversation, just like all conversation, there are simple rules.

The rules for CAP are even simpler - don't.

Ever.

Can you cite the regulation for us that states that rule?

[johnnyb47]

When it comes to political conversation, just like all conversation, there are simple rules.

The rules for CAP are even simpler - don't.

Ever.

Can you cite the regulation for us that states that rule?

If it isn't allowed by CAPM39-1 then it isn't allowed.

[johnnyb47]

When it comes to political conversation, just like all conversation, there are simple rules.

The rules for CAP are even simpler - don't.

Ever.

Can you cite the regulation for us that states that rule?

If it isn't allowed by CAPM39-1 then it isn't allowed.

Of course my own crack got me to thinking:
Table 1-1 of CAPM39-1 Reads (X's in DO NOT WEAR):
when participating in activities such as public speeches, interviews,
picket lines, marches, rallies, or in any public demonstration not
approved by the Air Force. Wearing the uniform may imply sanction
of the cause for which the demonstration or activity is conducted.

when furthering private employment or commercial interests, if
official sponsorship might be inferred.

under any circumstance that would tend to bring discredit or reproach
upon the uniform.

So i looked up the POLITICAL ACTIVITIES BY MEMBERS OF THE US AIR FORCE

http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI51-902.pdf

Interesting reading.....

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^Of course, someone will refute you by saying "WE AREN'T THE AIR FORCE!  WE'RE CIVILIAN VOLUNTEERS!"

[Critical AOA]

^^Of course, someone will refute you by saying "WE AREN'T THE AIR FORCE!  WE'RE CIVILIAN VOLUNTEERS!"

And they would be correct.

[ZigZag911]

^^Of course, someone will refute you by saying "WE AREN'T THE AIR FORCE!  WE'RE CIVILIAN VOLUNTEERS!"

And they would be correct.

Civilian volunteers of the US Air Force Auxiliary, from many walks of life, backgrounds, diverse viewpoints, working together toward common goals for the common good...plenty to do right there, seriously, let's leave partisan political discussions outside the CAP meeting place.

[Walkman]

^^Of course, someone will refute you by saying "WE AREN'T THE AIR FORCE!  WE'RE CIVILIAN VOLUNTEERS!"

And they would be correct.

You are right, of course. EXCEPT, those that wear the USAF style uniforms are frequently looked at as AD by the public. It wouldn't hurt to follow the AF's guidance on these kinds of things while in that particular set of uniforms.

[johnnyb47]

While we obviously arent bound by the UCMJ we ARE bound by "follow or we can kick you out" regulations that are pretty clear on (Paraphrasing a bit): "Don't talk about or engage in politics in uniform whenever the Air Force says it's not OK for their guys to do it."
When you look up when and what politicing or discussion of politics is allowed by the Air Force it's pretty much never when in uniform or on base.
There are windows of time and discussion that are allowable, of course but I invite you to create the flow chart based off CAP and AF regulation that we'd need to follow to conduct ourselves accordingly.

[Eclipse]

While we obviously arent bound by the UCMJ we ARE bound by "follow or we can kick you out" regulations that are pretty clear on (Paraphrasing a bit): "Don't talk about or engage in politics in uniform whenever the Air Force says it's not OK for their guys to do it."
When you look up when and what politicing or discussion of politics is allowed by the Air Force it's pretty much never when in uniform or on base.
There are windows of time and discussion that are allowable, of course but I invite you to create the flow chart based off CAP and AF regulation that we'd need to follow to conduct ourselves accordingly.

+1 - and that doesn't change if you're whites or a golf shirt.

[Nathan]

I should probably make it clear that I am strongly differentiating between allowing loose political banter and using political situations as teachable moments to open up members to the full spectrum of debate so they can make educated decisions.

The goal of discussing politics in an educational setting would never be to convince anyone of one side or another, but rather to allow them to explore all aspects of the political debate and to educate themselves on what the arguments actually are. There is nothing inherently dangerous about that; we do the exact same thing in most character development classes. The only difference is that we're using issues that are currently important on the national stage, which fits right in to our definition of building dynamic citizens.

Basically, if we have members attacking EVERY political argument (on either side) with "Why?", then we're doing it right. That's how political thought is SUPPOSED to occur, and we have too many people who don't think that way. If we have a duty to built good citizens, and we DON'T teach them to think this way, then I'm not sure how we can claim to accomplish that mission.

[Walkman]

The goal of discussing politics in an educational setting would never be to convince anyone of one side or another, but rather to allow them to explore all aspects of the political debate and to educate themselves on what the arguments actually are. There is nothing inherently dangerous about that; we do the exact same thing in most character development classes. The only difference is that we're using issues that are currently important on the national stage, which fits right in to our definition of building dynamic citizens.

That's a little like what I've been doing in CharDev. Taking these situations that have broader political issues and, without calling out specifics, getting the cadets to explore how they feel about them. Then I admonish them to do more research and see how their beliefs align with others.

[RADIOMAN015]

It's NOT a good idea to talk politics or religion at CAP meeting/functions or even in the work place.  It can lead to interpersonal relations problems that could have been easily avoided.
RM

[Garibaldi]

TBH, if anyone at my unit found out my personal religious/political beliefs, I'd be blackballed in 2 seconds. DADT.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

TBH, if anyone at my unit found out my personal religious/political beliefs, I'd be blackballed in 2 seconds. DADT.

I would be too.  Not for my religious beliefs; I am an active member of a more theologically-orthodox denomination of a "mainline" church.  But my political beliefs...outside of the aforementioned bumper sticker on my car, if those were openly known I could probably guarantee that a good chunk of my colleagues at all levels of CAP would probably (needlessly) suspect my patriotism, since I do not fit into any of the neat little "moulds" that have become fashionable over the past 20 years...I mean, they would probably say I do, but I refuse to accept such limits.

I think there is a lot more "grey" (and I'm not talking CAP uniforms) among the American people than media of whatever stripe try to pigeonhole us into.

[Critical AOA]

TBH, if anyone at my unit found out my personal religious/political beliefs, I'd be blackballed in 2 seconds. DADT.

Do you really feel your fellow members are so narrow-minded?

[Cool Mace]

TBH, if anyone at my unit found out my personal religious/political beliefs, I'd be blackballed in 2 seconds. DADT.

Do you really feel your fellow members are so narrow-minded?

I honestly wouldn't put it past some people. Many people, even in CAP, are of the mindset of my beliefs are correct, and if you don't agree then I will give you hell till, a) you convert to my way of thinking, B) bug you enough about it till you quit.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I honestly wouldn't put it past some people. Many people, even in CAP, are of the mindset of my beliefs are correct, and if you don't agree then I will give you hell till, a) you convert to my way of thinking, B) bug you enough about it till you quit.

Seen it, unfortunately, which was my purpose for starting this thread.

If said bigmouth is junior to me, I can first ask them to cool it and then tell them to knock it off if the kindly approach doesn't work.

If said bigmouth is senior to me...that's where the problem comes in, especially if s/he is in my direct chain of command.  I don't want to be a Captain forever.

[41839j]

This is pretty simple.  If the topic of politics comes up, I will agree with the comments if I actually do.  If I don't agree then I politely walk away.  It is pointless to argue such things.

That is how I handle it.  I am not interested in controling a conversation or censoring the comments of others.  If the commander wants to do that, that is his perogative.  I would rather not see that in CAP, but that is how I deal with this.

[Wild Weasel]

I agree with those who cited the USAF's Officer's Guide; Obviously we aren't under the UCMJ, but we are patriots, senior members are CAP officers, and we voluntarily adhere to certain customs, courtesies, and disciplines as a civilian auxiliary.  Teaching cadets the importance of USAF taboos & customs by our example seems like a useful role for CAP officers.

Here are some taboos from the USAF Officer's Guide, all of which have merit for a CAP officer in my opinion:

1. Do not defame the uniform
2. Give no excuses
3. Scorn servility (bootlicking)
4. Avoid going over an officer's head
5. Avoid harsh remarks
6. Avoid vulgarity and profanity
7. Stay out of politics - "As a citizen, you have a right to your opinions and a duty to vote, but keep your opinions to yourself."
8. Look smart in public

[Garibaldi]

I agree with those who cited the USAF's Officer's Guide; Obviously we aren't under the UCMJ, but we are patriots, senior members are CAP officers, and we voluntarily adhere to certain customs, courtesies, and disciplines as a civilian auxiliary.  Teaching cadets the importance of USAF taboos & customs by our example seems like a useful role for CAP officers.

Here are some taboos from the USAF Officer's Guide, all of which have merit for a CAP officer in my opinion:

1. Do not defame the uniform
2. Give no excuses
3. Scorn servility (bootlicking)
4. Avoid going over an officer's head
5. Avoid harsh remarks
6. Avoid vulgarity and profanity
7. Stay out of politics - "As a citizen, you have a right to your opinions and a duty to vote, but keep your opinions to yourself."
8. Look smart in public

I'd like to add:

9. If a cadet asks you a question that can be handled within his chain of command, refer him/her to his flight sergeant. This instills the need for utilizing his CoC for routine inquiries and not to ask someone who may or may not know the answer. And vice-versa, don't just jump the chain yourself, go through channels for inquiries and such.