Green Flight Suit

[41839j]

Ok here is a new one.  I do meet height/weight and grooming standards and wear the green flight suit while flying.  I was approached today and criticized.  The main complaint seemed to be the fit of the suit.  After some hemming and hawing encompanied by huge scowls, it was decided this didn't look right because I was wearing pants underneath.

I have always done this.  I treat the flight suit like a pair of coveralls and throw it one when I get to the airport.  Not wearing anything baggy, but normal fitted light khakis.  They aren't pleated or anything bulky.

I was a little taken aback by the criticism.  I am in Wisconsin and don't want to be out in the cold here if my plane goes down and I don't have any pants.  Stripping down to my skivvies to go flying is not a good idea in my opinion.  I also need my wallet and keys and that is where I keep them.

I was unaware of any regs about what to wear under the flight suit except for either a black or white t-shirt.  Everyone I know also wears pants to the best of my knowledge.

Comments anyone?  Am I in the wrong?

[Eclipse]

The flight suit is not a "coverall", and if you're able to wear pants under it, then the one you have is way too big.

39-1, Page 64 indicates that a T-Shirt and undergarments are the only thing authorized under the green flight suit:

"White, black or brown T-shirts are authorized.  All appropriate underwear will be worn"

Nothing else is authorized, therefore nothing else will be worn. 

It's one thing to wear discreet thermals in the winter, but not a full set of clothes.

[mdickinson]

I know many guys do wear the flight suit "instead of" pants.  I, however, do like you do - I always wear them "over" pants. I wear a light pair of tan or green shorts under them in the summer; and a thin pair of khakis in the cooler months. I've never heard any criticism - and it never (until I read eclipse's post just now) occurred to me that I was doing wrong by doing so.

Like you, I find it very useful to be able to step into my flight suit when I arrive at the airport, and step out of my flight suit when I get back to my car after the flight. I much prefer to ride home in shorts and a T-shirt. Not only is it cooler and more comfortable, but it means I can do errands on the way home without violating 39-1.

So you meet the weight and grooming standards, but you were being scowled at for wearing the flight suit. I wonder whether it's just about your pants or about something else. Possible things that might bring them to scowl:

• Do you "just barely" meet the weight standard? Or is that not close to being an issue?  I know there are some people out there who do technically meet the standard (a few pounds under the limit) but they look atrocious in USAF uniforms, so they don't wear them.
• Does your haircut and/or moustache actually meet the grooming standard, or sort-of?
• Does your green flight suit actually fit you? Is it too long, too short, too baggy, or too tight?
• The pants you're wearing underneath it - are they short enough that they don't protrude from the bottom of the flight suit?
• The flight suit itself - is it the real USAF nomex CWU/27P? Or is it one of those fake ones sold at airshows made out of some sort of cotton or rayon? There's one member in my area who has one of the latter, and it looks awful - color slightly wrong, cut slightly wrong, and it always looks like it spent the last month crumpled up in the bottom of his closet.
• Are the patches right? Is your black leather name patch correct? There's nothing that rubs some CAPers the wrong way more than a USAF style uniform being worn incorrectly.

If any of the above are an issue, try fixing them and see if you get less guff from your critic. I'm guessing the problem is the fit of the flight suit (too baggy), not the thin pair of pants you have on underneath it.

[41839j]

Thanks for the replies.

To answer the questions;  I am well within the standards.  My height is 5'8" and weigh 137.  Hair is short and in a basic businessman's cut.  There is no facial hair and no sideburns.

The suit is regulation nomex and fits fine.  It is neither too short nor too long and is not bulky in any way.  All patches and insignia are regulation and in order.  It is clean.

There was a slight bulge on my right hip from where my wallet and keys were.  There would have been a similar bulge, but on my chest if I used the pockets on the suit.

Honestly, if we have really come to the point where we are going to single people out and call them out for wearing shorts under their flight suit, then it might be time for me to move on.

I will and do put up with a lot, but this is bordering on ridiculous to treat a civilian volunteer in that manner. 

If I have to take my pants off to fly here, then it might be time to fly somewhere else.

[SarDragon]

I've been doing the flight suit thing for a very long time, and I have always worn cotton pants underneath my flight suit. That includes USN, and CAP. I've never been questioned on it.

If we're going to wear Nomex, then we should wear cotton clothing underneath to provide the additional layer of protection.

[PHall]

I have worn flight suits for over 30 years AND HAVE NEVER WORN PANTS UNDER IT!!! Why do you need them???
If you're flying in cold country in the winter, wear thermal underwear. That's what we do in the Air Force.
Otherwise it's underwear, cotton t-shirt and socks. Which is all you need.

[41839j]

I should explain a little more about how this came about.  I am in Wisconsin and had been flying a mission here for an hour and a half in temps in the upper 90s with high humidity.  Had just landed and was hot sweaty and tired.  Went into the terminal to relieve myself and was met by two transient men from Florida who were headed to Oshkosh.

They initially criticized my cap as being too far back on my head.  I accepted that and apologized since I had just put it on by feel after getting out of the plane.

Only after that did the scowling start.  I was nice about it and took it in stride, and thanked them for their input.

Honestly, everyone I know here does the exact same thing.

I can understand blatant uniform violations.  However, calling someone out for wearing shorts under their flight suit?  I just think going out of your way to confront someone about something as minor as that is going too far.  You need to consider that Forida is not Wisconsin, and we operate in a different environment with different needs.

[41839j]

Just checked with a shirt tail relative who is a captain in the air force reserve and a c130 pilot.  He said that he has ways worn pants underneath his suit and that he thought about half the others did too.

He thought it was a little silly that I was confronted about that.

I guess there isn't universal agreement on this.

[Eclipse]

I will and do put up with a lot, but this is bordering on ridiculous to treat a civilian volunteer in that manner. 

If I have to take my pants off to fly here, then it might be time to fly somewhere else.

Why is it that the first reaction for many members, when they are called on something that isn't "right" is to threaten to quit?
"No way to treat volunteers"..."more trouble then its worth..." etc., etc. 

Someone told you that you looked bulgy because you had a bunch of stuff in your pockets that should have been elsewhere.
You've chosen to do something "non-standard", and someone made an issue of it - not the end of the world, but perhaps time
to reevaluate your thinking in the matter.  Or not.

The flight suit is the uniform, it's baggy by design, but not supposed to be so baggy that you could wear a full set of clothes underneath.
Especially with a bunch of stuff in your pockets.  Depending on the weather and my mood, I sometimes wear gymshorts under my utilities,
but nothing you could even see, and I certainly wouldn't have a bunch of stuff in those pockets under the suit.

I've had members in my charge that did and wore all sorts of things incorrectly, and they were called on it - flannel shirts under the flight suit, etc.,
etc.  I called them on it, they adjusted, people moved on.

You're plane is not going to go down in Wisconsin, but even if it did, right now we're in the middle of a heat wave, so your extra layer is a bad
idea anyway.

If you feel the need to wear "real" pants, switch to the golf shirt and gray and never look back.  The flight suit is pretty much another CAP affectation anyway.  Despite the assertion in a couple of wings that it is critical for member safety, impact trauma is much more likely to be
fatal in a CAP air crash then fire, and yet we don't mandate flight helmets.

And as SARDRAGON pointed out, most members cover their fire retardant clothing with a fire accelerent jacket and accessories

[Eclipse]

...met by two transient men from Florida who were headed to Oshkosh.

Wait. So these weren't even people you knew? Were they even members?

[SarDragon]

And as SARDRAGON pointed out, most members cover their fire retardant clothing with a fire accelerent jacket and accessories

I pointed out nothing of the kind. Please reread my post. I wear cotton pants under the flight suit. Cotton is the only approved fabric for garments (t-shirt and undershorts, at the least) under a flight suit, according to my education. Cotton does not melt, and provides an insulation layer under the Nomex.  Also, it does not burn readily. (I know you are going to argue this, but try to light a cotton swab and see how well it burns. Synthetics flame up much more quickly.)

[Eclipse]

And as SARDRAGON pointed out, most members cover their fire retardant clothing with a fire accelerent jacket and accessories

I pointed out nothing of the kind. Please reread my post. I wear cotton pants under the flight suit. Cotton is the only approved fabric for garments (t-shirt and undershorts, at the least) under a flight suit, according to my education. Cotton does not melt, and provides an insulation layer under the Nomex.  Also, it does not burn readily. (I know you are going to argue this, but try to light a cotton swab and see how well it burns. Synthetics flame up much more quickly.)

I was agreeing with you, maybe too discreetly.

A lot of members never think about their undergarments in this regard, and / or wear a nylon flight jacket.    If you're wearing the flight suit for
its retardant properties, then you should be correct inside and out.

Most members don't know how to properly care for Nomex, either, and wash it with other clothes and use fabric softeners - both of which
degrade the retardant properties.

[41839j]

Answering the questions put forth;

Correct that these were people I did not know.  I do not know if they were current CAP members or what unit they were from.  I don't even know their last names.  I have first names and the tail number of their aircraft which was not CAP.

We are NOT talking about big bulges.  We are are talking about a normal sized wallet in one pocket and a set of keys for the plane and my car in the other.  THAT IS IT!
You could see a very slight bulge if you looked closely in profile and ONLY in profile.

Called my immediate supervisor who is the deputy commander for my squadron to discuss the situation.  He started out laughing, but became somewhat irritated as the conversation went on.  His words to me;

We are not interested in conducting underwear inspections.  We don't care what you wear under your uniform as long as the uniform is regulation and proper fitting.  He has seen me in this suit and flown with me with the exact attire as well as wallet and keys and he had absolutely no problem with it.  He wanted to know who these guys were that confronted me.  I have no idea if they will be tracked down and don't really care.

As to the other post about what is necessary and appropriate in Wisconsin, while I respect your opinion it does not agree with what had been discussed at the wing level.  However that is a subject for another day.

The other criticism of me for possibly overreacting on here about this is well taken and I apologize for my remark.  I was actually venting a bit.

[capmedic]

Wow - talk about making a mountain out of  a mole hill:

1) Random people told you that you look like crap in your uniform.
2) You didn't know them.
3) You don't know if they were CAP
4) This upset you so badly you called your Deputy Commander to "discuss the situation"
5) You threaten to quit.

Uhmmm, yeah.....

[Walkman]

I wear a pair of athletic shorts under my bag just so I have a couple of pockets for my wallet, etc.

Do you "just barely" meet the weight standard? Or is that not close to being an issue?  I know there are some people out there who do technically meet the standard (a few pounds under the limit) but they look atrocious in USAF uniforms, so they don't wear them.

I had this issue. I ordered my flight suit when I was slightly thinner, then I gained weight. I could still zip it up when I got to the top of the weight limit, but I looked like a stuffed sausage in it. I'm working back to getting in weight regs (6 pounds to go!), but I just bought a flight suit in the next bigger size so I don't look so bad once I lose the last few pounds.

[41839j]

Wow - talk about making a mountain out of  a mole hill:

1) Random people told you that you look like crap in your uniform.
2) You didn't know them.
3) You don't know if they were CAP
4) This upset you so badly you called your Deputy Commander to "discuss the situation"
5) You threaten to quit.

Uhmmm, yeah.....

While that is not an accurate assesment of the situation, I thank you anyway for being so helpful in your contribution.

[Walkman]

I could see a couple of either former CAP'ers that were disgruntled or someone who is RM that doesn't like CAP wearing the military style uniform being the culprits in this case.

[41839j]

Possible, but since my commander approves I consider the case closed.  I was only on here as well as inquiring with him to determine whether or not I did something improper and how to improve.

I didn't make a big deal of it at the time.  Just smiled nodded my head, thanked them for their opinion and walked away.

[Eclipse]

I didn't make a big deal of it at the time.  Just smiled nodded my head, thanked them for their opinion and walked away.

If two random guys walked up to me after flying a mission and started taking issue with my hat, and then my bulges, I
would first ask who they were, and then offer this:

Good Day

We always have to be polite in uniform, especially to the general public, but that doesn't mean we have to put up with any nonsense
from people who are looking to make a "point".

[G+10]

I wear a pair of athletic shorts under my bag just so I have a couple of pockets for my wallet, etc.

Wait a sec... A flight suit is nothing BUT pockets!

[AngelWings]

If you don't tell anyone what you are wearing under your flightsuit, than they won't know. People have gripes with everything, but don't listen to them (unless they actually make a real and important point).

You're fine. I wear shorts and a tank top under my uniforms at all times, with a pair of flip flops in my pack or my car so if I want to get comfortable when I am done wearing my uniform I'll be fine. As long as you can't see the general outline of the pants under the suit don't worry about it. Many people I know wear stuff under their bag, since the regulations are not kind to the idea of anyone who wears it going out in public for anything nonessential (like grabbing a bite to eat or heading to a store to buy some stuff for the house).

If it happens again for some ungodly reason, ignore them, call them stupid in professional terms, act like they have two heads, tell them they do not know what they are even talking about, whatever. Some people feel like they need to go around critizing other people, even if they look like crap themselves. Actually, that is a common occurence in all walks of life. People feel the need to prove themselves to other people when they know they don't meet the cut.

[abdsp51]

[quote author=AngelWings link=topic=15824.

If it happens again for some ungodly reason, ignore them, call them stupid in professional terms, act like they have two heads, tell them they do not know what they are even talking about, whatever. Some people feel like they need to go around critizing other people, even if they look like crap themselves. Actually, that is a common occurence in all walks of life. People feel the need to prove themselves to other people when they know they don't meet the cut.
[/quote]

Wrong answer.

[AngelWings]

[quote author=AngelWings link=topic=15824.

If it happens again for some ungodly reason, ignore them, call them stupid in professional terms, act like they have two heads, tell them they do not know what they are even talking about, whatever. Some people feel like they need to go around critizing other people, even if they look like crap themselves. Actually, that is a common occurence in all walks of life. People feel the need to prove themselves to other people when they know they don't meet the cut.

Wrong answer.
[/quote]
What's wrong? Ignoring them or handling things that way you feel (only reason I said that was the fact I am not in his CoC, so I can't physically stop him from saying what he wants, just advise against it) or the fact that people are critical of others when they in fact are hypocrits and don't meet the standards themselves? The latter I know is right because I see it happen almost daily with my pops in Real Estate. The former, well, again I am not his CC, CD, or whatever position holds direct authority against him, so I ca only advise him against saying things, but I can't reprimand the guy for saying what he wants. The whatever was a hint that I don't have authority, you do what you know is right.

[Bluelakes 13]

The flight suit is pretty much another CAP affectation anyway.

:clap:

[abdsp51]

That response can escalate something that does not need to be escalated.  A simple thank you have a good day and be on your way.  Your examples are not proffesional by any means and would only cause the op or anyone for that matter to sink to the other persons level.

[AngelWings]

That response can escalate something that does not need to be escalated.  A simple thank you have a good day and be on your way.  Your examples are not proffesional by any means and would only cause the op or anyone for that matter to sink to the other persons level.

I apologize, and me I'm used to my dad being more brash and open with people he doesn't like, and he really does good at making idiots realize they are idiots. It's how I was raised, so I do lean towards it more.

[SarDragon]

You don't like us, and think we're idiots? That's what I just read in your post.

I think you need to step back, and reevaluate your attitude a bit, because right now, it's unsatisfactory. There's a time to argue for your opinion, and this isn't one of those. Arguing against decades of experience and wisdom is not the way to make a positive influence.

[AngelWings]

You don't like us, and think we're idiots? That's what I just read in your post.

I think you need to step back, and reevaluate your attitude a bit, because right now, it's unsatisfactory. There's a time to argue for your opinion, and this isn't one of those. Arguing against decades of experience and wisdom is not the way to make a positive influence.

Where'd you get that from me saying my dad makes idiots (in the real estate world) look like idiots when they piss him off? I am not arguing any point, your telling me I have an attitude for apologizing for something I grew up with and sometimes am partial to think is ok or at least not to worrisome. You're blowing it out of context. I was expectin people could read it in a way that would come off as someone informally talking about how they were raised, not saying I don't like them and think they are idiots. Wow, if that is how I write I need to get to a formal writing class because I am unable to convey points without people understanding what I mean.

[SarDragon]

Yes, you need to work on your writing skills. We've already had a discussion about that by PM. You had a bad attitude about that, too.

I asked my wife to look at the thread, and tell me what she thought you were saying in your post. She had the same idea I did. She's a retired Navy CPO.

You're thinking and behaving like your dad, and in this case, it's wrong.

[AngelWings]

Yes, you need to work on your writing skills. We've already had a discussion about that by PM. You had a bad attitude about that, too.

I asked my wife to look at the thread, and tell me what she thought you were saying in your post. She had the same idea I did. She's a retired Navy CPO.

You're thinking and behaving like your dad, and in this case, it's wrong.

I apologize. I need more help than a PM. I've made a topic to avoid completely hijacking this thread, so if you have any suggestions, please post them. I am not trying to put any bad attitude in my posts, and it comes off different than I intend.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If these were non-members who I didn't know from Adam, I'd say, in a neutral tone, "Look, if you can only criticise based on standards you are unfamiliar with, I have better things to do" and be on my way.

There's no reason to get into a sniping match with anyone.  Life's too short.

[Walkman]

I wear a pair of athletic shorts under my bag just so I have a couple of pockets for my wallet, etc.

Wait a sec... A flight suit is nothing BUT pockets!

LOL True! I don't like the feeling of my wallet & phone in any of the chest of lower leg pockets. It just feels.. weird. My shorts have the traditional front pockets so I stash my stuff there and it feels more natural.

[capmedic]

Wow - talk about making a mountain out of  a mole hill:

1) Random people told you that you look like crap in your uniform.
2) You didn't know them.
3) You don't know if they were CAP
4) This upset you so badly you called your Deputy Commander to "discuss the situation"
5) You threaten to quit.

Uhmmm, yeah.....

While that is not an accurate assesment of the situation, I thank you anyway for being so helpful in your contribution.

Which part was materially inaccurate?

[Garibaldi]

You know...once I was home visiting my sister and we went to her son's school's football game. There were AFJROTC kids in blues doing...something...there. I'm still not sure. This was before I went back in CAP. It was all I could do not to go over and tell them that they were wrong in the way they were wearing their uniforms: gig lines way out of whack, white socks(!), hair out of regs, belts wrapped halfway around their waists. I asked my sister if I was wrong in wanting to go dress them down for it and she told me yes, it was. It took me a minute to think about it and realize she was right.

Unless you have an identifiable reason for doing so, you are gonna be wrong 100% of the time, even though you're right. They wouldn't have known me from Adam and here an overweight male civilian was telling me that my uniform looked shoddy and that I was putting their unit in a bad light. Bad feelings all around.

Those guys who told the OP he was wrong were wrong. They may have been right but they were wrong. I'd react that way if some joker came up and told me my gig line was out of order or my shoes needed shining.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^^Very well said, Garibaldi, with good example of your nephew's football game AFJROTC kids.

I see AFJROTC around now and again, and even if one of their cadets was wearing fluorescent orange running shoes with the uniform, I wouldn't say anything.

Why?

Because I have no command authority over JROTC whatsoever.  To try and assert it would make me look quite foolish.

[gw263]

I wear the nomex flight suit daily, and we are required to wear nomex, cotton or wool undergarmets and socks.  Wearing synthetic undergarmets or outerwear really defeats the purpose of wearing the nomex.  I don't personally know of anyone wearing pants under their flight suit, but I guess it is possible.  In cold weather, I wear issue nomex long underwear.

[SarDragon]

I wear the nomex flight suit daily, and we are required to wear nomex, cotton or wool undergarmets and socks.  Wearing synthetic undergarmets or outerwear really defeats the purpose of wearing the nomex.  I don't personally know of anyone wearing pants under their flight suit, but I guess it is possible.  In cold weather, I wear issue nomex long underwear.

Therein lies the problem. You get stuff issued to you. CAP doesn't get issued squat in the way of clothing. Since we don't really 'need' Nomex undies, I wear cotton.

[Critical AOA]

So am I or am I not allowed to go astronaut style and wear an adult diaper under my flight suit? 

[Garibaldi]

So am I or am I not allowed to go astronaut style and wear an adult diaper under my flight suit?

[Gibbs head slap]

Only if you're bat-crap crazy and in love with another astronaut.

[Critical AOA]

Well, I was in love with an alien but now she is a citizen.

[a2capt]

Wait a sec... A flight suit is nothing BUT pockets!

Except the three that I have. The zippers at the waist lead not to pockets .. but to ... the inside.

As if you are given access to pockets on the inside. .. that might be on shorts you have on, which is what I do. Because that's where keys and walllet go. Not on my front side, or in the pocket on the leg where it makes walking feel like I have extra stuff someplace it shouldn't be, swinging around. Or bulging out.

[SarDragon]

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