Uniform for Augmentation

[Major_Chuck]

Each Senior Officer would hold a Flight Officer Grade corresponding to their level of progression in the Professional Development Program.

Complete Level One:  Authorized Grade is F0-1
Complete Levle Two:  Authorized Grade is FO-2
Complete Level Three:  FO 3
Complete Level Four:  FO 4
Complete Level Five:  FO 5

Only those in current Command and Staff Positions would hold Officer Grades

Squadron Commander:  Captain
Group Commander:  Major
Wing Commander:  Colonel  (Vice Commander and COS Lieutenant Colonel)

Staff Officers at Squadron Level:  Lieutenant
Staff Officers at Group Level:  Captain
Staff Officers at Wing Level:  Captain and Major (Depending upon position)

Region Commanders:  Colonel, 
Vice Commander:  Lieutenant Colonel
Region CoS:  Lieutenant Colonel

National Commander:  Brigadier General
National Vice Commander:  Colonel
National CoS:  Colonel

When member is no longer in a position they no longer wear grade of office but return to FO Grades.

No colonel and general officer grades for life.

[arajca]

Any NCO you are working for while augmenting isn't going to have ANY problems whatsoever with our rank, NONE, he or she will be running the show and every AD Airmen knows that. You just try and give a AF NCO an order and they will tell you where to shove that order real quick like in a hurry.

An NCO will not tell you where to shove the order. They will politely take you aside and explain in detail exactly why your order is unlikely to be followed. Believe it or not, NCO's do not like appearance of impropriety anymore than an officer does. Besides, having the self control to explain the issue to an officer brings much respect from their followers.

Honestly folks, having rank on our shoulders isn't going to matter when it comes time to augment for the AF, and if it was going to cause a problem they would tell us what to wear. Look at the precedence that's being set with the limited amount of augmentation we do now, they don't have us remove our rank then and they actually do want us in blues.

Gotta agree with this logic. And if CAP does expand its augmentation, the AF will make it blindingly clear what will and will not be worn.

And believe me, augmenting as Chaplains puts CAP way out in the front for being seen. Hasn't been a problem yet.

Bad example. Military chaplains are officers. Most have no command authority.

It's sort of like the argument we keep having over the TPU, there are some people here who really think it isn't distinct enough. this rank issue is the same thing, we are bringing up issues where there are no issues. Let there be a problem before we fix the problem. If your sink isn't leaking, don't go trying to fix it. It's like the US Government motto: "If it ain't broke, keep fixing it till it is!"

You aren't supposed to tell anyone that. It's cheating.

[DNall]

Each Senior Officer...

That's dumb for a couple reasons. First of all, positions aren't slotted by grade in the military because it looks good that way, it's done ONLY because they've determined that the person minimally qualified for that job will be at a level in their career that corresponds to that grade. If you just put bars on someone because of the position they hold then you've completely defeated the purpose of having grade at all & negated the whole concept of how & why a military system works. This isn't the CGAux, and what they do is pretty silly. Grade is meaningful when it's based on a combination of experience, REAL professional development, and merit over a career. WHEN grade indicates THOSE factors then it can & shoud be a determiner of who holds what jobs, and should give you authority over others. Anything else is just rearranging the chairs to cover for our inadequacy.

Second, the AF has no interest in us using any kind of WO system or in any other way departing from their system. Follow the leader & play by their rules.

Now that said, that post was WAY off topic.

It's sort of like the argument we keep having over the TPU, there are some people here who really think it isn't distinct enough. this rank issue is the same thing, we are bringing up issues where there are no issues. Let there be a problem before we fix the problem. If your sink isn't leaking, don't go trying to fix it. It's like the US Government motto: "If it ain't broke, keep fixing it till it is!"

Problem is AF isn;t allowed to correct us on some things even when they're really pissed off, it also counts w/ the small things tyhat would be easily fixed if they could just order a slight change or cuase an IG investigation to be more on the level. However, when things are outside their control & snowball up bigger & bigger till they are backed into a corner & snap on things they do control. That's how we went from blue to maroon grade slides back around the late-80s/early-90s, that's what caused us to lose our perm Aux status in 2000, it's caused numerous budget adjustments, it's why you can't run down to DRMO & sign out anything you want or need, it's why we don't have encampments on AFBs, all of that has been directly related to CAP being stupid & AF not having the authority from Congress to do anything about it, and been slapped down by Congress a couple times (including in 2000) when they tried to exceed theri authority.

It's best for CAP to be sensitive to these things & proactive in correcting probelms before they contribute negatively to our relationship with the AF.

[DrJbdm]

An NCO will not tell you where to shove the order. They will politely take you aside and explain in detail exactly why your order is unlikely to be followed. Believe it or not, NCO's do not like appearance of impropriety anymore than an officer does. Besides, having the self control to explain the issue to an officer brings much respect from their followers. 

  you are absolutely correct, An NCO is first and formost a true professional. I have seen NCOs correct Officers before and it's always been done gently and with great results.

[Major_Chuck]

Each Senior Officer...

That's dumb for a couple reasons. First of all, positions aren't slotted by grade in the military because it looks good that way, it's done ONLY because they've determined that the person minimally qualified for that job will be at a level in their career that corresponds to that grade. If you just put bars on someone because of the position they hold then you've completely defeated the purpose of having grade at all & negated the whole concept of how & why a military system works. This isn't the CGAux, and what they do is pretty silly. Grade is meaningful when it's based on a combination of experience, REAL professional development, and merit over a career. WHEN grade indicates THOSE factors then it can & shoud be a determiner of who holds what jobs, and should give you authority over others. Anything else is just rearranging the chairs to cover for our inadequacy.

Second, the AF has no interest in us using any kind of WO system or in any other way departing from their system. Follow the leader & play by their rules.

Now that said, that post was WAY off topic.

Perhaps a little off topic but not "dumb".  There have been other suggestions on these boards that are worse. 

If I recall the original post, the question was 'what uniform to wear if we are ever used to augment the military components.  Wearing this grade would eliminate a lot of confusion by those who are unfamiliar with our program.

[DNall]

Perhaps a little off topic but not "dumb".  There have been other suggestions on these boards that are worse. 

If I recall the original post, the question was 'what uniform to wear if we are ever used to augment the military components.  Wearing this grade would eliminate a lot of confusion by those who are unfamiliar with our program.

There are other threads you can go for that, and in which I'll be happy to further explain why such a system completely defeats the purpose of having grade in the first place.

Now then, how would a FO grade system that the AF is not now & never will be familiar with (based on the size of our program & level of interaction possible), going to lessen confusion? They really have no problem with us wearing officer grade. It's some of the people we put it on that's an issue, and the level of accountability. The only time you'll be wearing an AF-style uniform is when you're in a high visability or non-critical position where it doesn't matter if anyone confuses you with an AF officer. If you're going to be in a situation where such a thing would be at issue, I think they might ask you to wear the corporate style or just civies. There is no issue with uniforms for this program, or really in general, the only issue that exists is the people in them & what they're doing.

[Dragoon]

Now then, how would a FO grade system that the AF is not now & never will be familiar with (based on the size of our program & level of interaction possible), going to lessen confusion?

Simple.

All USAF personnel, regardless of their knowlege of CAP, would realize that CAP folks have no command authority over USAF folks and visa versa.

USAF folks know that they take orders from those with more stripes, bars, leaves, eagles and stars than they have.  And they GIVE orders to with fewer stripes, bars, leaves and eagles than they have.

By removing stripes, bars, leaves, eagles and stars from our folks, it makes it inherently clear, at a glance that we are different.  And that any command relationships will be because of position assignment, not because of what's on the collar.

They don't NEED to understand our system.  Just to know, at a glance, that it is completely different from their system (which it is.)  By this simple measure, we eliminate all direct comparisons between CAP officers and USAF officers, and the confusion that goes along with it.

[MississippiFlyboy]

Or we could just take away the rank temporarily for augmentation purposes and be done with the whole mess. No confusion, Simple, Uniform...

I have yet to hear a good argument why rank is important if augmenting the USAF.  I can think of many why it's not. 

[Dragoon]

Or we could just take away the rank temporarily for augmentation purposes and be done with the whole mess. No confusion, Simple, Uniform...

An elegant solution.  Truthfully, rank could also be removed for ES, since the "ranking" guy is the IC, regardless of grade....

[arajca]

Or we could just take away the rank temporarily for augmentation purposes and be done with the whole mess. No confusion, Simple, Uniform...

An elegant solution.  Truthfully, rank could also be removed for ES, since the "ranking" guy is the IC, regardless of grade....

Following that logic (you knew it was coming), rank could be dropped for regular meetings, since the unit commander is in charge, regardless of grade.

So we're back to the "what purpose does rank serve" arguements.

[Dragoon]

Or we could just take away the rank temporarily for augmentation purposes and be done with the whole mess. No confusion, Simple, Uniform...

An elegant solution.  Truthfully, rank could also be removed for ES, since the "ranking" guy is the IC, regardless of grade....

Following that logic (you knew it was coming), rank could be dropped for regular meetings, since the unit commander is in charge, regardless of grade.

So we're back to the "what purpose does rank serve" arguements.

Curse you, you've seen through my fiendish plan!   

That's why I'd like rank either

1) To mean something - meaning it's tied to one's current level of authority or responsibility

or

2) To not look like USAF rank, since we use it totally differently (a symbol of training completed vs a symbol of authority)

[MississippiFlyboy]

Following that logic (you knew it was coming), rank could be dropped for regular meetings, since the unit commander is in charge, regardless of grade.

So we're back to the "what purpose does rank serve" arguements.

In our own organization, it shows the level of knowledge or prior military experience, but when dealing with the AF it can misconstrued, misused, abused....etc.  Think of all the times you've seen the "i wanna be just like an air force officer" mentality in CAP and then imagine that MAJ Bagadonuts goes off to his augmentation assignment for the day but before he can go inside and get a cup of coffee, he has to lap the building for about 5 minutes just to get in all the salutes before a busy day of trying to convince A1C Newguy how he's just like a real officer.  I can hear the conversation right now...

"So there i was Airman.....on a black ops tactical SAR mission at 30 ft AGL when the engine just quit...."

[DNall]

Actually grade should be highly meaningful, but tied to postion is counter productive cause it means nothing about that person's qualification. The reasons grade & position have any connection at all is the position requires a minimum skill level that you're required to have in order to reach the grade associated with it.

No one in the AF thinks you have authority over them. Gary slides & blue tapes make certain of that. Anyway, what's teh point of grade in the AF, everyone in the unit know the chain of command & knows you're not in it. That's not what grade is about, and what it is about they know you aren't part of. The uniforms we have now are designed expressly for that purpose. The extent to whcih they let us tighten up to more professional looking versions is the same extent to which we deserve it by meeting those standards & to teh extent their people are educated as to who you are.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. They are going to tell you what uniform to wear, you'll show up, they'll show you where to sit & what to do & which NCO is supervising your work. No one cares about anything else.

If the AF asks us to use this FO system or wear some more distinctive uniform combination or whatever, then fine, but I think you'll find that they're generally going to be in favor of you wearing AF-style uniforms w/ your officer grade insignia, or they want you in civies w/ a specially colored ID to distinguish you from civil service employees.

[MississippiFlyboy]

No one in the AF thinks you have authority over them. Gary slides & blue tapes make certain of that.

If that were true then we would never be saluted in uniform which happens all the time.  You assume way more recognition (as compared to to reality) by the rank and file of the USAF of what CAP is all about.

[lordmonar]

No one in the AF thinks you have authority over them. Gary slides & blue tapes make certain of that.

If that were true then we would never be saluted in uniform which happens all the time.  You assume way more recognition (as compared to to reality) by the rank and file of the USAF of what CAP is all about.

There is a big difference than saluting a possible officer and obey their commands.

If I am walking down the road...and see a strange uniform (say a member of the RAF) and it looks sort of officerish...I'm going to whip out a salute and say good morning sir!  He he steps into my office and starts giving me orders....well....that's a completely different thing.

[DNall]

No one in the AF thinks you have authority over them. Gary slides & blue tapes make certain of that.

If that were true then we would never be saluted in uniform which happens all the time.  You assume way more recognition (as compared to to reality) by the rank and file of the USAF of what CAP is all about.

There is a big difference than saluting a possible officer and obey their commands.

If I am walking down the road...and see a strange uniform (say a member of the RAF) and it looks sort of officerish...I'm going to whip out a salute and say good morning sir!  He he steps into my office and starts giving me orders....well....that's a completely different thing.

Amen!

I've been saluted a lot by military personnel that know exactly what it is to & know very well they don't have to salute you. Had an AF Capt (and CAP Capt) this wknd in AF uniform saluting CAP Majs & LtCols, and he knew very well he didn't have to. I said sir to him in passing cause he outranks me in the real world, but no one reads anything extra into that even w/o knowing the background of the people involved.

Don't judge a salute or use of the word "sir" in conversatin or in passing as acceptance of subordination to orders & authority. VERY VERY different things. It's part of a military custom that's sometimes extended by mistake or on purpose as a sign of respect. Don't misinterpret it as more than it is.

[SAR-EMT1]

No one in the AF thinks you have authority over them. Gary slides & blue tapes make certain of that.

If that were true then we would never be saluted in uniform which happens all the time.  You assume way more recognition (as compared to to reality) by the rank and file of the USAF of what CAP is all about.

There is a big difference than saluting a possible officer and obey their commands.

If I am walking down the road...and see a strange uniform (say a member of the RAF) and it looks sort of officerish...I'm going to whip out a salute and say good morning sir!  He he steps into my office and starts giving me orders....well....that's a completely different thing.

Amen!

I've been saluted a lot by military personnel that know exactly what it is to & know very well they don't have to salute you. Had an AF Capt (and CAP Capt) this wknd in AF uniform saluting CAP Majs & LtCols, and he knew very well he didn't have to. I said sir to him in passing cause he outranks me in the real world, but no one reads anything extra into that even w/o knowing the background of the people involved.

Don't judge a salute or use of the word "sir" in conversatin or in passing as acceptance of subordination to orders & authority. VERY VERY different things. It's part of a military custom that's sometimes extended by mistake or on purpose as a sign of respect. Don't misinterpret it as more than it is.

AMEN

[SAR-EMT1]

Back to the subject at hand...
When the CGAux augments they remove the shoulderboards and pin on a device that identifies them as Auxies. 

My question is: If we were to also use a distinct insignia as CAP types what do you propose such a device would look like?

[RiverAux]

As I pointed out in the first post, none of our uniforms are set up to easy switches like that, except for the blues and equivalents.  I'm sure somebody could design something appropriate though.  The CAP seal or the insignia we're putting on the airplanes for example. 

[DNall]

Again, screw the CGAux, they are not an example for us to follow. Things that work in the CG don't work for us & things that work for CAP/AF cannot work for CG. The reasons they do what they do are not applicable to CAP, both in general & specific to this issue. When you look at CGAux for ideas, you can only look at the very top surface layer, then you have to design your own program underneath with your own specifically tailored details shaped to the AF relationship. What the do has nothing to do with CAP!!!

CAP doesn
t need to change anything about our uniforms to execute this program. We have much more distinctive uniforms than others.