Uniform for Augmentation

[RiverAux]

This was lightly touched on in one of the other augmentation threads....

What uniform should CAP members wear if an AF or AirNG augmentation program ever really get developed? 

Obviously, this should be left to the discretion of the AF unit commander where the augmentation takes place, but there are some side issues that might need to be aired:

1)  Rank.  
There may be a legitimate interest in the AF people not wanting CAP members to wear rank (avoid confusion, etc.) but they may not care. 

When CG Aux augments they don't wear rank insignia.  This isn't any big deal since they wear pin-on rank, it is easy to change this at a moments notice.  CAP has sew-on insignia only so having to switch back and forth isn't feasible on the BDUs.  Not problem at all on the service uniforms, just take off the epalets.   

With SDFs their rank is "real" and as legitimate as the NG members they are working with, so they just wear their regular uniforms as prescribed for the job they're doing. 

If the AF was to make a big deal out of this it could be a problem.  After all, who wants to buy separate BDUs just to wear while augmenting? 

2)  AF-style vs CAP corporate vs CAP civilian uniform 
Personally, I would favor restricting augmentation to CAP members wearing the AF-style uniform (as prescribed by the AF unit commander) only.  These folks would be working side-by-side with AF members and I think it would be appropriate to only use people meeting the AF-style uniform standards.  I personally wouldn't want to see any of the corporate uniforms being worn.  However, depending on the job, I wouldn't have a problem with someone wearing the golf-shirt uniform as it would more or less fit in with what you might expect from a civilian employee also working around the base. 

 

[lordmonar]

Well....if the USAF was going to accept that we are in fact an true auxillary and they were not just giving us lip service about our rank and uniforms.  Any CAP uniform USAF or Corporate should be acceptable and we should wear our rank.

If they cannot accept that...then we should seriously look at our relationship with the USAF.

[Pylon]

I don't see why we need to change our uniforms based on what we happen to be doing at the time.  Our uniforms are quite distinctive enough to show that we're not actual Armed Forces personnel, and similar enough in overall appearance to show we're a part of the Air Force family.

Where's the problem we're trying to solve here?

[RiverAux]

The example has already been set here --- if CG Aux members have to remove rank insignia to augment, don't think that the AF won't consider it.  I was just bringing it up as something that very well could arise should augmentation get serious consideration by the AF. 

[DNall]

I think this is cart way out in front of the horse.... but I'll play along briefly.

I think it would depend HIGHLY on the job at hand. If you are working in maint for instance, do you really want that person in highly disinguishable BDUs or do you want them in BBDUs that look like the transient alert maint crews? Or in a joint situation would you want them in BBDUs where you might at first glance think og them as Navy/CG?

Kach mentioned that in doing tours down in Florida the AF asked them to wear flight suits. I suppose that's because it's UOD for them & gives some flair to the duty, but it also is the uniform of ours that's most confusable with the AF & I imagine in that case that's what they want. Some things will be like that. In cases where they've put some our people in an ops center environment they've wanted them in uniform, generally didn't specify which one, just so it looked official, in general though they've prefered the AF-style in those cases. I don't think it's a matter of confusion in crisis they've been worrie dabout so much as people stopping to figure out who the hell you are & what you're doing in their op center. They know their chain of command already & aren't about to take an order from anyone outside it, be it a CAP Captain or a 20-star AF general. On the other hand there are plenty of times I can think of where tehy would prefer us not to be in AF-style uniforms for practical, authority, and PR reasons, that's fine to. Whatever the case, it'll be up to the office receiving the help to specify appropriate UOD for augmenting folks.

I think the deal with CG is that their uniforms are less distinctive in certain ways that are particularly confusing to civilians. CAP is more distinct in most areas. Anyway, lets get a program, then worry about what they want us to wear while doing it.

[lordmonar]

The example has already been set here --- if CG Aux members have to remove rank insignia to augment, don't think that the AF won't consider it.  I was just bringing it up as something that very well could arise should augmentation get serious consideration by the AF.

The difference being the rank of file of the CG AUX do not wear rank...only the unit leaders.

[lordmonar]

I think it would depend HIGHLY on the job at hand. If you are working in maint for instance, do you really want that person in highly disinguishable BDUs or do you want them in BBDUs that look like the transient alert maint crews? Or in a joint situation would you want them in BBDUs where you might at first glance think og them as Navy/CG?

It should not matter at all because they are all CAP uniforms.  If the USAF did not want our members to wear corporates while augmenting...then it would be the final and absolute proof that they do not consider us a true auxillary.

Kach mentioned that in doing tours down in Florida the AF asked them to wear flight suits. I suppose that's because it's UOD for them & gives some flair to the duty, but it also is the uniform of ours that's most confusable with the AF & I imagine in that case that's what they want.

But what happens when the large and harry CAP member wants to augment?  Yes he should wear the flight suit...but because of USAF rules...it would have to be the Blue Flight Suit.

And if the USAF had a problem with that...again...they are showing that they do not respect our organisation.

[DNall]

It should not matter at all because they are all CAP uniforms.  If the USAF did not want our members to wear corporates while augmenting...then it would be the final and absolute proof that they do not consider us a true auxillary.

What? If anything it'd be the other way around. What if the AF really wants us as their Aux, but wants us to get it togetehr & live up to some standards a little more in the hemisphere they work in? They've never in history endorsed the idea of even having corporate style uniforms, much less what they look like. I doubt most situations will even specify a distinction between AF-style & Corporates, but I think there will generally be a pref by them for AF-style, and if ever a distinction is made I think it'll be based on the job at hand. If you don't want to follow the conditions the CC involved sets then you just don't get to participate in that opportunity.

Kach mentioned that in doing tours down in Florida the AF asked them to wear flight suits. I suppose that's because it's UOD for them & gives some flair to the duty, but it also is the uniform of ours that's most confusable with the AF & I imagine in that case that's what they want.

But what happens when the large and harry CAP member wants to augment?  Yes he should wear the flight suit...but because of USAF rules...it would have to be the Blue Flight Suit.

Okay, that sounds fine, what's your point. If AF specifically wants that person in a green flt suit then they need to find someone that can wear it to do the job or issue a waiver to this guy. I don't see why it would be a problem to wear the blue one though, especially in a space related setting.

And if the USAF had a problem with that...again...they are showing that they do not respect our organisation.

My experience has been the AF bends over backwards to support CAP well beyond its actual worth, not to mention meassurable return. I think AF has every right to be pissed when someone affiliated with them makes the service look like bumbling idiots. I think they have every right to expect their auxiliary to live up to at least a recognizable shadow of their standards. I think you're being awfully hard on the AF considering how much they have & continue to do for us when they really don't have to. I think you'll find the only thing stopping CAP from being a serious Aux portion of the total force, or from doing incredibly important work is CAP itself - and mostly by that I mean we hold standards SO low that our least common denomonator is just not acceptable to a lot of professional airmen as part of their service faimly. You don't like how they feel about us, change the things that make them feel that way, don't blame them.

[DrJbdm]

So true, we are our own worst enemy. We want to include everybody which means we can have NO standards because invariably someone would come along who didn't meet the standard no matter how lax it was and couldn't join...and heaven help us, that just wouldn't be acceptable. Go figure why we have such membership retention problems.

[RiverAux]

I think this is cart way out in front of the horse.... but I'll play along briefly.

If we worried about the relative positions of the cart and the horse, this board would be a very quiet place....

The difference being the rank of file of the CG AUX do not wear rank...only the unit leaders.

Depends on your definition of "leader" to some extent.  If you hold a staff officer position at the local level you get the equivalent of the 2nd Lt. (Ensign) insignia.  It has a little red "A" in it, but they are so small and hard to see that you have to be in somebody's face to notice. 

In practical terms, just about everybody in CG Aux has held a local staff job unless they are brand new to the organization, so a very high percentage of CG Auxies have some level of "officer" rank on them most of the time. 

As quite a few CG units are actually led by NCOs, even this low level of "apparent rank" could cause some (minor) problems). 

[Dragoon]

I think it would depend HIGHLY on the job at hand. If you are working in maint for instance, do you really want that person in highly disinguishable BDUs or do you want them in BBDUs that look like the transient alert maint crews? Or in a joint situation would you want them in BBDUs where you might at first glance think og them as Navy/CG?

It should not matter at all because they are all CAP uniforms.  If the USAF did not want our members to wear corporates while augmenting...then it would be the final and absolute proof that they do not consider us a true auxillary.

Kach mentioned that in doing tours down in Florida the AF asked them to wear flight suits. I suppose that's because it's UOD for them & gives some flair to the duty, but it also is the uniform of ours that's most confusable with the AF & I imagine in that case that's what they want.

But what happens when the large and harry CAP member wants to augment?  Yes he should wear the flight suit...but because of USAF rules...it would have to be the Blue Flight Suit.

And if the USAF had a problem with that...again...they are showing that they do not respect our organisation.

Well, more fairly it means that they don't respect all of the interanal rules we've made.  They could still respect the organization, and just require us to change a few things to fit in better with them.

In the case of the tour guide things, the appearance matters - and in the same way that the Air Force Honor Guard will only accept tall folks, the Space Center Tour Guide program may only accept thin, short haired, clean shaven folks who can wear Nomex flight suits.  That seems reasonable, given what they want done.

My guess is that yeah, if we had a nationwide USAF augmentation program, something like the CGAUX "take the rank off" would probably happen, especially if the augmentation job put us working for USAF NCOs.

[MIKE]

Technically Auxies can wear office insignia ashore... Or even afloat as pax, unless directed otherwise:

A.9. Assignment to Duty A Coast Guard authority may prescribe an Auxiliary uniform as a condition for assignment to a specific duty. When performing duty on a Coast Guard vessel, Auxiliarists shall wear a uniform consistent with those of the vessel's personnel. Auxiliarists, when working as crew on a Coast Guard vessel, shall wear only the
member device (Auxiliary emblem) as collar insignia.

[DNall]

Well, more fairly it means that they don't respect all of the interanal rules we've made.  They could still respect the organization, and just require us to change a few things to fit in better with them.

That's true.

My guess is that yeah, if we had a nationwide USAF augmentation program, something like the CGAUX "take the rank off" would probably happen, especially if the augmentation job put us working for USAF NCOs.

I don't know if that's the case. They've never really had a problem with people wearing officer grade & they seem to like us in distinctive uniforms that still obviously belong to the AF. Anyway, I don't think they'd ask you to take off the insignia. They do that in the CG cause it is confusable & they interact with the public a lot more than the AF. That's less of an issue w/ CAP. I think there would be some jobs they would prefer you in an AF-style uniform, some where they specifically do not & ask that you wear corporates, and some where they ask you not to wear a uniform at all maybe just a nametag or not even that. I do think it's important in this process to distinguish CAP members from civilian employees. Both because you're a volunteer & because we want people to know it's CAP helping them out.

Like I said it's all going to depend on the job. I don't think SDF or CGAux are necessarily the best examples to look to on this particular issue. I also don't think it matters in the slightest to AF. They will care about the program itself & of course would have authority to set UOD while working for them. There's no discussion to have beyond that.

[MississippiFlyboy]

I think the removal of rank is an excellent idea for augmentation.  It would help to keep out those that want to play with big blue for the wrong reasons...i.e. a CAP officer trying to throw his rank around which I have seen on way to many occasions when interacting with AD/Guard/Reserve components. It puts all augmentees on an  even playing field and puts the focus on the mission where it belongs.

[DrJbdm]

Lets stop trying to make CAP more into the CG Aux. Rank on or off who cares. Honestly, I do not think AF is going to give a flying flip either way. besides if you took the rank off of the blues we would look like a bunch of AF Airmen basics.

Lets work on getting them to respect us more and perhaps they will offer us a chance to augment the force. Right now we are just too much of an embarrassment to them. We also need to define where we could augment them, right now we only augment with Chaplains and then only those Chaplains that have met the Air Force educational requirements...ie: College degree.

We would also have to meet the Air Force educational requirements for playing in other fields we wanted to augment in as well and if that meant a college degree then yes, only those of us with a degree would be able to serve. Likely they would want to hold us to some resemblance of AF Officer standards, at least thats my feeling. Look at what they did with Chaplains, only those with an accredited college degree who also meet AF chaplain standards can augment AF. Maybe if the rest of us mirrored AF Officer standards a bit more we might get them to let us augment in other areas.

[MississippiFlyboy]

Rank on or off who cares.

The military does...rank may be meaningless in CAP, but it has a very real function in the Armed Forces and SDFs.  If you have a bunch of field grade officers working under an NCO (which you will deal with way more than an O) that represents an issue because our officers have no command authority and it makes it hard on the NCO who has to figure out how to manage a bunch of senior officers.  NCOs run the military and often have more power than junior and some senior officers, but when push comes to shove, an order (good or bad) from a commissioned officer is just that a legal ORDER.  Our officers have the appearance of that authority to the uninitiated and that's where problems could occur. 

I'm not trying to transform CAP ino the CG Aux, but the CG has it right on this one, strip the collar device, give someone a job and let them do it.  When we play in our sandbox we use our rank and organization, when we play with Big Blue use the method that eliminates problems - i.e. our screwy command and rank structure - albeit temporarily of course  gotta put those butter bars back at some point to impress the ladies   

[DrJbdm]

Any NCO you are working for while augmenting isn't going to have ANY problems whatsoever with our rank, NONE, he or she will be running the show and every AD Airmen knows that. You just try and give a AF NCO an order and they will tell you where to shove that order real quick like in a hurry.

Honestly folks, having rank on our shoulders isn't going to matter when it comes time to augment for the AF, and if it was going to cause a problem they would tell us what to wear. Look at the precedence that's being set with the limited amount of augmentation we do now, they don't have us remove our rank then and they actually do want us in blues. And believe me, augmenting as Chaplains puts CAP way out in the front for being seen. Hasn't been a problem yet.

  It's sort of like the argument we keep having over the TPU, there are some people here who really think it isn't distinct enough. this rank issue is the same thing, we are bringing up issues where there are no issues. Let there be a problem before we fix the problem. If your sink isn't leaking, don't go trying to fix it. It's like the US Government motto: "If it ain't broke, keep fixing it till it is!"


last time I tried to impress the ladies with those butter bars, they laughed at me...oops wait, that was my wife who was laughing! 

[DNall]

Beyond insulting them with bad appearance, behavior, or standards, I promise you the AF doesn't give one flip about our uniforms in any context; and, no aiman on the planet thinks you're a real officer. They aren't going to accept or decline an augmentation program based on uniform, & specifically if you wear grade or not. THEY will decide if they want to go forward with an augmentation program based on its own merits & requirements, THEY will define what roles we will & will not play at any given point in the process, THEY will pick which of our members can participate & establish requirements for opportunities THEY give us, and THEY will tell you what uniform or lack thereof THEY want you to wear while doing the work. There is no point in talking about except to say that the proposal would include an explicit statement that the AF, & specifically the CC of the unit being augmented, are teh soul determiner of UOD & standards for augmentees.

The CGAux is generally bad example for us to follow. They got their thing that's tailored to their parent service. There are SOME similiarities & SOME things that can be learned from them, BUT the nature of their parent service is SO different from teh AF that you might as well be comparing the girl scouts to PJs. The same is true of SDFs. There are things to learn from them & in some ways there are similiar, but in otherways they might as well be from Mars. The CG & NG have found ways to work with their auxiliary organizations & use them from augmentation. Great, that's a good idea we can look at w/ AF... comparison ends & is not further referenced.

[MississippiFlyboy]

Any NCO you are working for while augmenting isn't going to have ANY problems whatsoever with our rank, NONE, he or she will be running the show and every AD Airmen knows that. You just try and give a AF NCO an order and they will tell you where to shove that order real quick like in a hurry.

That's just it, spend any time around the Air Force or ANG and it happens a lot...some mistake us for commissioned officers and some think we are like the salvation army.  I've seen bases issue out DOD base stickers with the "officer" designation to CAP Officers because they didn't know any better and i've also been denied access to a base in a CAP vehicle and had to use my military ID to get the van in the base.  The majority of the AD/Guard/Reserve know very little about CAP and many don't even know we exist.  I'm not so much worried about the Air Force NCO being being able handle a CAP Officer but rather a CAP officer being able to handle an Air Force NCO if you get my drift.  And let me clarify here before i get jumped on - I'm referring to the self-aggrandizing officers that have ego/power problems, don't play well with others, etc, etc and we've got a bunch of those.  These are the types who would jump at the chance to play "Air Force" and could very easily torpedo the program before it has a chance to succeed if ever implemented.  Chaplains have less of an issue with this because all Chaplains are officers.  Working with the AF while doing our own ops is a whole different issue than sending personnel on a base to work directly for the AF/Guard/Reserve.

[DrJbdm]

I'm referring to the self-aggrandizing officers that have ego/power problems, don't play well with others, etc, etc and we've got a bunch of those.  These are the types who would jump at the chance to play "Air Force" and could very easily torpedo the program before it has a chance to succeed if ever implemented.

  And this is the reason why we must have REAL standards for becoming an Officer. Someone who has to work at becoming an Officer and had to qualify for the position with a real set of standards and training isn't someone who's likely to act a fool and torpedo the program.

  But as DNall said, if and when a Augmentation program ever developed, it would be restricted to those the Air Force liked and wanted. and in all reality it may be only open to those who meet height/weight requirements. What AF wants, AF gets. They set the rules by which we play.