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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: FOUO, For Official Use Only
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whatevah
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Posts: 1,013

my personal website, yo!
« on: March 28, 2005, 06:47:13 PM »

Please remember that certain information available to members is FOUO, and is not to be disclosed to those who don't "need to know". Particularly, this includes radio frequencies.

While our currently-used radio frequencies are common knowledge (and available via a quick google search), we are getting new freq's and those aren't commonly known.  Any post violating the FOUO will be edited to keep NHQ happy. ;)
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Jerry Horn
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Skyray
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« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2005, 12:04:48 PM »

While I agree with your post implicitly, members should remember that any transmission that is not scrambled is subject to intercept.  Even if using the new frequencies, sensitive information should not be passed in the clear.
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Doug Johnson - Miami

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whatevah
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« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2005, 02:27:38 PM »

yup, unless you're using a P25 keyed channel, anybody and his brother can listen to ya.
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Jerry Horn
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« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2005, 04:20:56 PM »

yup, unless you're using a P25 keyed channel, anybody and his brother can listen to ya.

Yep, some years ago I had a customs attorney telling me how secure cellphones were because of the frequency restrictions.  Just to prove a point, I flipped on the R-7000 and proved him wrong with a vengence.  We overheard a DEA agent on stake-out surveillance in Los Angeles, telling his girl friend, who was a federal prosecutor in Miami, exactly where he was (street address), who he was after, and what he was doing.  I watched Mister Custom's eyes get big, and then he started writing.  I was only about half joking when I told him that the law prohibited him from using anything he heard for personal gain.
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Doug Johnson - Miami

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Cadet Bonnett
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« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2005, 04:31:17 PM »

Please remember that certain information available to members is FOUO, and is not to be disclosed to those who don't "need to know". Particularly, this includes radio frequencies.

While our currently-used radio frequencies are common knowledge (and available via a quick google search), we are getting new freq's and those aren't commonly known.  Any post violating the FOUO will be edited to keep NHQ happy. ;)

what is the FOUO.
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Cadet A1C Christin Bonnett
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Cmdbuddy
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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2005, 04:34:28 PM »

Please remember that certain information available to members is FOUO, and is not to be disclosed to those who don't "need to know". Particularly, this includes radio frequencies.

While our currently-used radio frequencies are common knowledge (and available via a quick google search), we are getting new freq's and those aren't commonly known.  Any post violating the FOUO will be edited to keep NHQ happy. ;)

what is the FOUO.

FOUO stands for "For Offical Use Only."  That is information that is, well, used for official use only. 
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Christie Ducote, Capt, CAP
Cadet Bonnett
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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2005, 04:36:21 PM »

i see. so for like officers of CAP or all members. ???
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Cadet A1C Christin Bonnett
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Cadet Bonnett
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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2005, 04:39:28 PM »

yup, unless you're using a P25 keyed channel, anybody and his brother can listen to ya.
Sir what is the P25 keyed channel.
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Cadet A1C Christin Bonnett
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arajca
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« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2005, 04:56:19 PM »

i see. so for like officers of CAP or all members. ???

No. For Official Use Only means information is to be given to and used only by those who have a need based on the organizational responsibilities, who may or may not be officers.

P25, aka APCO P25 standard, radio uses a specific digital encoding and transmitting format known as P25. A P25 keyed channel is a channel that is programmed to use this format. Most P25 radios can be programmed to work with or without the P25 format.
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Cadet Bonnett
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« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2005, 08:31:48 PM »

i see. so for like officers of CAP or all members. ???

No. For Official Use Only means information is to be given to and used only by those who have a need based on the organizational responsibilities, who may or may not be officers.

P25, aka APCO P25 standard, radio uses a specific digital encoding and transmitting format known as P25. A P25 keyed channel is a channel that is programmed to use this format. Most P25 radios can be programmed to work with or without the P25 format.

thank you so much i understand now.
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Cadet A1C Christin Bonnett
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Skyray
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« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2005, 10:39:26 AM »

Quote
thank you so much i understand now.

I understand, unless you mean the protocol, and I really have no need to know that.  However, I am not active with CAP communications.  Is P25 the encryption protocol that sounds like white noise that can't be squelched out?
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Doug Johnson - Miami

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dwb
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« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2005, 11:22:15 AM »

No. For Official Use Only means information is to be given to and used only by those who have a need based on the organizational responsibilities, who may or may not be officers.

This is an excellent description of FOUO, but I'm going to expand on it anyway (leave now if you're even a little bit sleepy).

The designation "For Official Use Only" is used throughout the U.S. government.  It is a dissemination restriction that can be placed on Unclassified data.  FOUO material is exempt from the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA).  Hence, you cannot make a FOIA request to obtain CAP frequencies, or anything else marked FOUO.

FOUO information is given out on the basis of "need to know", which as mentioned above, means that the information is needed to perform organizational responsibilities.  Pretty much anyone can make a need to know determination on FOUO.  In fact, it is the responsibility of the person sharing the information to determine whether it should be shared.

What does this mean to the average CAP member?  Not much, since a lot of radios are pre-programmed with the frequencies, and you only need to know channel numbers (which are not FOUO).  Should you require any CAP frequencies to perform training or actual missions, you are allowed access to them.

FOUO does not mean classified, and care should be taken not to go overboard with it (i.e., restricting access to senior members only, because you can't trust those pesky cadets!)  It just means that you shouldn't give frequencies to people who are not in CAP, or don't need them.

Proper marking mechanisms for FOUO include:

For Offical Use Only

-- and --

Unclassified//For Official Use Only

Most organizations mark material at the top and bottom of every page, in the header and footer sections of the document.  If a document contains mixed classifications, portion markings are used on paragraphs to denote specific restrictions.

If, for example, you have a 350-page document, but only one paragraph is FOUO (hence making the whole document FOUO), you can designate it with a porion marking:

(U//FOUO) Don't release me!

Whew!  *nudge* you can wake up now. :)
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arajca
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« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2005, 11:41:09 AM »

No. For Official Use Only means information is to be given to and used only by those who have a need based on the organizational responsibilities, who may or may not be officers.

This is an excellent description of FOUO, but I'm going to expand on it anyway (leave now if you're even a little bit sleepy).

The designation "For Official Use Only" is used throughout the U.S. government.  It is a dissemination restriction that can be placed on Unclassified data.  FOUO material is exempt from the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA).  Hence, you cannot make a FOIA request to obtain CAP frequencies, or anything else marked FOUO.
On FOIA requests: CAP is not a governmental agency (our USAF Aux status is irrelevent in this regard) and therefore is not subject to FOIA requests. I got this from the COWG Legal officer (I wanted to make sure I had the straight dope on it). In CO, if a unit receives a FOIA request, the policy is to inform the requestor that CAP is not subject to FOIA requests. If they insist, the unit refers them to the COWG Legal Officer, who is more than willing to inform the request of the error of their ways in full and complete legalese. The requestor may try to file the FOIA request on the USAF, but that involves a whole different level of legal mumbo-jumbo.

Quote
FOUO information is given out on the basis of "need to know", which as mentioned above, means that the information is needed to perform organizational responsibilities.  Pretty much anyone can make a need to know determination on FOUO.  In fact, it is the responsibility of the person sharing the information to determine whether it should be shared.
Actually, it is up to the originating agency to determine who can get the information and how it gets diseminated.

Quote
What does this mean to the average CAP member?  Not much, since a lot of radios are pre-programmed with the frequencies, and you only need to know channel numbers (which are not FOUO).  Should you require any CAP frequencies to perform training or actual missions, you are allowed access to them.
Basically the people who will have access to the actual frequency information are those members who program radios or work in communications coordination with outside agencies.

Quote
FOUO does not mean classified, and care should be taken not to go overboard with it (i.e., restricting access to senior members only, because you can't trust those pesky cadets!)  It just means that you shouldn't give frequencies to people who are not in CAP, or don't need them.

Proper marking mechanisms for FOUO include:

For Offical Use Only

-- and --

Unclassified//For Official Use Only

Most organizations mark material at the top and bottom of every page, in the header and footer sections of the document.  If a document contains mixed classifications, portion markings are used on paragraphs to denote specific restrictions.

If, for example, you have a 350-page document, but only one paragraph is FOUO (hence making the whole document FOUO), you can designate it with a porion marking:

(U//FOUO) Don't release me!

Whew!  *nudge* you can wake up now. :)
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Matt
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Wisconsin Wing
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2005, 09:28:57 AM »

To answer Mr. Johnson's question (sorry I'm nor sure of your grade) P25 doesn't really zone out squelch even though it is digital.  It is encryption for message security.  Unless someone has another P25 radio, they're hear only squelch, this, if my memory serves correctly, is also the case with scanners.

In jist, Congress was looking for money, they went to the DoD and NTIA and said, you have freq's you don't use, can we sell them... they of course said sure... a few months later they needed them and told congress to come up with something as to be able to have new freq's.  This is where wideband and narrowband came into play.  The P25 is on top of narrowband as so that we can utilize channels more effectively.

P-25 on the newly nat'l issued Johnson Handhelds is a little over a $400 add-on, of which we do have on them.

Although we are NOT active duty in the eyes of many, our frequencies are handled by the gov't, and under those guides, we can use the //FOUO// and have backing.

I have seen the new channels that have been added already, and knowing that, I can openly say that the //FOUO// is indeed useful on those objects.

Little known fact:  CAP has more frequencies than anyone actually knows, we have them on all bands, but they aren't talked about nor published anywhere.  CAP Comms' are a national resource and a resource for the USAF, FEMA, and if needed SHAREs, now if only we could get our stuff in one pile...
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Matthew Kopp, Capt, CAP
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Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2005, 12:02:10 PM »

...[big snip]...  now if only we could get our stuff in one pile...

and if we could only stay with the same system long enough to adopt it on a practical, wide-scale basis.   :)
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
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Matt
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« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2005, 12:03:31 PM »

Amen.
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Matthew Kopp, Capt, CAP
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« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2005, 09:27:33 PM »

As to FOUO is in regards to frequencies. The frequencies belong to USAF and they want CAP to safeguard them. In 2007 CAP will be changing to New frequencies and will go narrow band on FM radios.
 
It means you can not release CAP radio frequencies to any one with out permission of Wing Director of communications. CAP start this now so everyone will know the policy when we receive the the new frequencies.

Never give radio frequencies over the radio use channel identifier. If you need to tell someone to go to a certain channel say go Channel two or if name such as CAP SPX 2 (CAP simplex 2)

Also remove frequencies list from public view such as web pages and and any place the public can see it.


ND/DC
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Dean Reiter Col CAP
ND/CC ND001
alpha06
Recruit

Posts: 14

« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2005, 06:53:22 AM »

This thread is funny. Youguys are making such a big deal out the acrnym FOUO. I use it everyday n my work. It isnt that serious. It only means sending of certain information is for official use only. I dont even see wher eit would apply to CAP. Sorry to bust your bubble, but ists not some secret squirl thing.
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arajca
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« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2005, 09:44:21 AM »

This thread is funny. Youguys are making such a big deal out the acrnym FOUO. I use it everyday n my work. It isnt that serious. It only means sending of certain information is for official use only. I dont even see wher eit would apply to CAP. Sorry to bust your bubble, but ists not some secret squirl thing.

It may not be that serious to you in your work, but to members who don't use on a daily basis, it is serious. We take our directions on this from a little know organization called the US Air Force. Our radio frequencies are AF frequencies dedicated to Civil Air Patrol. The USAF provides directives on how to handle this information, and it is up to us to handle it correctly. If - as in this case - the Air Force designates it FOUO, then CAP has to handle it accordingly. And we are making strides in doing so, but we haven't got everyone there yet.

On a side note, become familiar with the second button to the right of the "Post" button, the one that says "Spell Check". It will help make your posts readable.
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alpha06
Recruit

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« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2005, 01:38:39 PM »

Thanks for that. Itype fast sorry. What sensetive information do we broadcast on our radios that we dont want the general public toknow? The only thing I canthink of is names of deceased people we find. In my other little organiztion known as the United States Army, we do have very sensative items. I just dont see that in CAP. Sorry
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Lord, if I must have an engine failure, let it be the Hobbs meter.
arajca
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« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2005, 02:13:57 PM »

Thanks for that. Itype fast sorry. What sensetive information do we broadcast on our radios that we dont want the general public toknow? The only thing I canthink of is names of deceased people we find. In my other little organiztion known as the United States Army, we do have very sensative items. I just dont see that in CAP. Sorry
The information covered by the FOUO designation is the actual frequencies CAP has been assigned by the AF. The AF considers ALL of its frequencies FOUO, therefore the frequencies we use are FOUO. Since there is an outside chance of a remote possibility we could be using our radios on a HLS mission, the AF has impressed upon National the importance of following AF procedures for AF frequencies. As such, it become OUR responsibility to follow those directions - whether or not we agree with them. Even though some members think it's all a bunch of BS, we still have to follow them.

ps. I was in the Army as well and handled Secret and Top Secret information and equipment daily. FOUO doesn't hold the same importance, but following the appropriate procedures does.
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Major_Chuck
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« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2005, 06:43:01 PM »

There are CAP missions that the general public does not need to know about.

Counter Drug, Homeland Security, support of the Transportation Security Administration, local support to law enforcement, Air Force assigned missions and the list can go on to include U.S. Forest Service, Customs and Immigration, etc.

Then you have the scanner junkies that interpret what they hear over the radios that can cause more harm then good in what they do.
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Chuck Cranford
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Virginia Army National Guard
Jerry
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« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2005, 09:50:40 PM »

There are CAP missions that the general public does not need to know about.

Counter Drug, Homeland Security, support of the Transportation Security Administration, local support to law enforcement, Air Force assigned missions and the list can go on to include U.S. Forest Service, Customs and Immigration, etc.

Then you have the scanner junkies that interpret what they hear over the radios that can cause more harm then good in what they do.

I still hear members blurting out frequencies even after they've been told NOT to do it. I stress this at every opportunity when at our unit meetings and when teaching A and B Cuts.

On the scanner buffs, this is an excellent chance to promote the use of  Frequencies AH and AI for close-in ground work.  Particularly, AH has range on most days out to 50 miles or more. It thwarts the scanner listeners because *most* scanners won't decode SSB.  While he is sitting there playing with his toy, the traffic has been handled without him knowing it ;D.


Lt Col Jerry Oxendine
NCWG

March 9, 1964

edit: adjusted quote tag.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2005, 10:05:05 PM by whatevah » Logged
arajca
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« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2006, 05:25:24 PM »

National has implemented a new online OPSEC training course. You can take it here.

(deleted non-working link)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 01:32:27 AM by arajca » Logged
whatevah
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my personal website, yo!
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2006, 05:52:21 PM »

the link to the letter doesn't work...

tip: since you're a "Seasoned Member" you can attach files to your posts.  click on "Additional Options" when you reply, and an attachment box will appear.
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Jerry Horn
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bosshawk
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« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2006, 03:12:37 PM »

alpha06: some additional info that we sometimes broadcast on our radios that we don't want copied: when on a search for a missing airplane or missing person, we don't want the media to know when and where we have found a crash or a missing person.  For that reason, most good ICs use a code word to denote such a find: most savvy media people have scanners and monitor out freqs while we are on a search.  With the new repeaters and freqs, that will be much more difficult, especially if our members can learn to keep their mouths shut.  I spent 30 years in the Army, so know where you are coming from.  That said, there are plenty of CAP folks who are so excited about their service to God and country that they tend to want to tell everyone they know about the details.  All of the discussion on this post about FOUO is probably good: in CAP we really don't have much classified stuff.
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Paul M. Reed
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arajca
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« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2006, 06:17:49 PM »

As a reminder, scanner enthusiasts will try hard to get CAP frequencies. For example, here is an email a CO sqdn commander received:
Quote
Hello

I am an avid scanner /emergency radio monitor in Larimer county.

I have been trying to find any CAP frequencies for the Denver and northern Colorado areas can you please help?

I know of the standard common freqs I was hoping you can give me a list of any “local use frequencies “

Thanks and God bless

Jeffrey<><

If you receive an email like this, let the requestor know you cannot give out the information.
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floridacyclist
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Tallahassee Composite Squadron
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2007, 11:39:52 PM »

I get asked all the time about CAP frequencies on the ham band - I just usually make a little joke about not wanting to have to kill them before going on to explain that we use military frequencies and they don't want us giving them out. That usually satisfies folks without sounding too uppity; they might be our next recruit.
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Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
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Major Lord
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« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2007, 12:12:48 AM »

This popped up on a search. I have an FCC commercial license and even I did not kknow about some of these alleged CAP frequencies: http://removed

Thats all public domain stuff too! The magazine, Popular Communications, did a feature front page article on our FUOU frequencies just a few months ago. Lets use some method of communicating that they will never break..our frequency is Unway, fourtyday, einway, ecimalday.....Better than Navajo code talking!

Capt. Lord
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"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
DNall
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« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2007, 12:15:04 AM »

Or let the NSA fix it for us & if the scanner guys can get thru that then they can go work for the NSA too.
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SJFedor
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« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2007, 12:29:36 AM »

This popped up on a search. I have an FCC commercial license and even I did not kknow about some of these alleged CAP frequencies: xxx.xx.xxxx

Thats all public domain stuff too! The magazine, Popular Communications, did a feature front page article on our FUOU frequencies just a few months ago. Lets use some method of communicating that they will never break..our frequency is Unway, fourtyday, einway, ecimalday.....Better than Navajo code talking!

Capt. Lord

*sigh*

Rather interesting, the first freq they have listed is 119.35. Hate to break it to them, but it's not a SAR frequency. Among other things in other places, in TN, it's the freq for the Western sector of Nashville Approach.

Every now and then when I'm cruising in a CAP plane doing o-flights or proficiency, I always monitor the CAP radio, and I'll hear an unauthorized user screwing around. It's kinda funny when you ask the station to identify itself because it is on a US Government Frequency. They get real quiet, real quick.

Although the frequencies are out there to be found, I would recommend removing the link from that post. Not telling you to, just strongly recommending. Regardless of whether it's public or not, we shouldn't advertise the link on here for more people who aren't as cunning to look them up (cuz it takes lots of skills to use google, girls only like guys with skills)  :o
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Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
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RogueLeader
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« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2007, 12:07:45 PM »

Yeah, I found the CAP freq's on the first hit from google, took less than 30 sec's in a very fast time.
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<redacted>

GRW 3340
SARPilotNY
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« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2007, 03:34:42 PM »

Let's see...Mountain top, 10 towers, hundreds of antennas and just who wants to take CAP out?  I think there are bigger fish to fry!
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CAP member 30 + years SAR Pilot, GTM, Base staff
Ricochet13
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« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2007, 04:34:20 PM »

Quote from: Jerry link=topic=147.msg4239#msg4239 date=
I still hear members blurting out frequencies even after they've been told NOT to do it. I stress this at every opportunity when at our unit meetings and when teaching A and B Cuts.

On the scanner buffs, this is an excellent chance to promote the use of  Frequencies AH and AI for close-in ground work.  Particularly, AH has range on most days out to 50 miles or more. It thwarts the scanner listeners because *most* scanners won't decode SSB.  While he is sitting there playing with his toy, the traffic has been handled without him knowing it ;D.


Frequency agility throughout the entire range of assigned frequencies is something worth considering.  That would include not only AH and AI, but also AA and AB.  Just additional frequencies that could be used when conditions warrant.
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smgilbert101
Recruit

Posts: 46

Wylie Composite Squadron
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2007, 04:51:46 PM »

A few clarifications....

Publically available or not, USAF says its FOUO and we are REQUIRED to follow it.

Persons handling FOUO to Top Secret plus should have been required to attend a security briefing and should know better.

---> Specifically to my Army counterpart... mishandling FOUO documents can introduce you to Mr. Article 15.  In CAP it is called a 2B.  You are not the only one here who has a military background and you should know that a regulation is an order, not a request.  Some of the things said on our radios definietly should not be easilly overheard.  Such an attitude can cause real harm.  Mission details are private.  Divulging that information to the general public can cause significant emotional distress and place the safety of members at risk. Our operating frequencies are not necessarilly our alone.  We share those freqs with other agencies.  Diluging that information can place them at risk as well.

Third, you cannot just identify paragraphs in a document as being FOUO.  If a document contains FOUO information, the ENTIRE DOCUMENT is FOUO.  For example, if you were to place the comm regs in your regs binder, the binder would need to be Labelled FOUO.  That's a DoD (USAF's big brother) requirement.

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Steve Gilbert
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ISNJH
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Posts: 26

« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2007, 02:12:16 PM »

I just did the online CAP OPSEC test

Stuff I already knew but it is always good to have a refresher course.
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JCW0312
Seasoned Member

Posts: 226

« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2007, 07:36:08 AM »

I just did the online CAP OPSEC test

Stuff I already knew but it is always good to have a refresher course.

Common sense stuff most folks already know, but now THEY know you know;)
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Jon Williams, 2d Lt, CAP
Memphis Belle Memorial Squadron
SER-TN-144
BuckeyeDEJ
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« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2008, 11:59:02 PM »

Yeah, I found the CAP freq's on the first hit from google, took less than 30 sec's in a very fast time.
Like here? http://tuolumneradio.com/cap.html
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CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group and wing PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member, at region level now
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Unit: GLR-WI-002

Timmerman Composite Squadron - WIWG - CAP
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2008, 12:26:04 AM »

Yeah, I found the CAP freq's on the first hit from google, took less than 30 sec's in a very fast time.
Like here? http://tuolumneradio.com/cap.html

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.  If people can find the freqs on their own, so be it.  But in no way should you aid them, even by posting a link.  Thats what OPSEC and the whole FOUO deal is about.

Remember that part in your OPSEC training that talks about not showing off your knowledge?  I believe that would apply pretty well here.  This forum is read by many/most of the higher ups; wing commanders, nationals personnel, etc.  It reflects pretty poorly on us when we start breaking regs on one of the most highly frequented CAP websites on the net.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 12:40:30 AM by ♠SARKID♠ » Logged

           Capt. Dan Turkal
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                WI-002/CC
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BuckeyeDEJ
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,059
Unit: GLR-001

« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2008, 01:39:38 AM »

Cadet Turkal,

While I am glad you're adamant about operational security, you're missing the point.

As you've admitted, the scanner bugs are free to twist the dials however they want and think they can "find" things. And they have the Constitutional right to post information they find out in the open, including any information transmitted over those frequencies. After all, America's radio spectrum is owned by the public, which bestows its control on the FCC. It's no different than standing out on a sidewalk, taking pictures of people who walk by -- even those who don't want their pictures taken. If they don't want to be seen, too bad. They're in a public place.

The real concern: Where did the Web site get more specific information than a twist of the dial may or may not have produced? Whether that information is correct or not, it represents a potential OPSEC violation.

It reminds me of a case in West Virginia, where a news reporter, who overheard police on a scanner talking about juvenile offenders by name, published those names in a related news story. (In West Virginia, juvie offenders' names are kept absolutely confidential.) When it went to court, the cops were at fault, and the newspaper was upheld.

It's simple: If you don't want information or speculation out there, don't key the mike and speak. Whatever you say, whether it's factual or not, will be picked up by someone.

All anyone has to do is Google "Civil Air Patrol frequencies" and they can find a bunch of stuff, as you know. That the information is out there means the Powers That Be need to get out there and warn the Web site operators they should be voluntarily mum on CAP operations, regardless of the veracity of the information. After all, we're a nation at war. Each of those Web sites -- whether they're accurate or not -- represents a violation that needs to be addressed by someone higher up the food chain than a squadron commander in Tampa Bay.

(For the record, my personal reply to someone asking for communications information isn't much different from what FloridaCyclist, above, would say.)

As a final note, while I appreciate your passion for operational security, I'm not sure whether to find your words out of line. I hope you can prove me wrong. While this forum allows freedom of expression outside the chain of command, it's still within a CAP context. If you know who you're talking to, please conduct yourself accordingly. Thank you.
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CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group and wing PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member, at region level now
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now in marketing.
RADIOMAN015
Banned

Posts: 1,990

« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2008, 10:54:38 PM »

 ???I'd be very careful about any "witch hunts"...  NO CAP member has ANY authority whatsoever in CAP's name to ask ANYONE to remove ANYTHING from their personal website.   That includes ANYONE at National Headquarters.  You will get yourself burned & the organization will get burned if this happends. 

There's a lot CAP units with web sites around the country that still have lots of radio information on the public side of the website.  Use the right search terms and it will appear for the picking & monitoring.

The only true way to prevent monitoring of our frequencies is to "encrypt" the transmissions.  Otherwise, whatever the frequencies we in CAP operate on, it will be found and monitored.

RADIOMAN   

Cadet Turkal,

...snip..snip..

The real concern: Where did the Web site get more specific information than a twist of the dial may or may not have produced? Whether that information is correct or not, it represents a potential OPSEC violation.
...snip..snip..
All anyone has to do is Google "Civil Air Patrol frequencies" and they can find a bunch of stuff, as you know. That the information is out there means the Powers That Be need to get out there and warn the Web site operators they should be voluntarily mum on CAP operations, regardless of the veracity of the information. After all, we're a nation at war. Each of those Web sites -- whether they're accurate or not -- represents a violation that needs to be addressed by someone higher up the food chain than a squadron commander in Tampa Bay.


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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,759

« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2008, 01:16:08 AM »

???I'd be very careful about any "witch hunts"...  NO CAP member has ANY authority whatsoever in CAP's name to ask ANYONE to remove ANYTHING from their personal website.   That includes ANYONE at National Headquarters.  You will get yourself burned & the organization will get burned if this happends. 

There's a lot CAP units with web sites around the country that still have lots of radio information on the public side of the website.  Use the right search terms and it will appear for the picking & monitoring.

The only true way to prevent monitoring of our frequencies is to "encrypt" the transmissions.  Otherwise, whatever the frequencies we in CAP operate on, it will be found and monitored.

RADIOMAN   

Cadet Turkal,

...snip..snip..

The real concern: Where did the Web site get more specific information than a twist of the dial may or may not have produced? Whether that information is correct or not, it represents a potential OPSEC violation.
...snip..snip..
All anyone has to do is Google "Civil Air Patrol frequencies" and they can find a bunch of stuff, as you know. That the information is out there means the Powers That Be need to get out there and warn the Web site operators they should be voluntarily mum on CAP operations, regardless of the veracity of the information. After all, we're a nation at war. Each of those Web sites -- whether they're accurate or not -- represents a violation that needs to be addressed by someone higher up the food chain than a squadron commander in Tampa Bay.




They may not have the "authority", but I bet that if you ask nicely and give a good reason for your request, most people would take the stuff off their web site.
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BuckeyeDEJ
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,059
Unit: GLR-001

« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2008, 12:47:37 AM »

Radioman, they also have the right to report troop movements if they see them. But we all know what happened when Geraldo did that.

I agree that encryption makes this discussion moot, but until that time, someone with some authority in CAP can ask the Web site owner to take the information down because of its sensitive nature -- regardless of whether it's accurate.
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CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group and wing PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member, at region level now
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now in marketing.
C JMeyer
Recruit

Posts: 8

« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2008, 04:23:55 AM »

Im new but i think every CAP member either signed the OPSEC (operational security) form or agreed to it on e-services if you dont if you go
https://www.capnhq.gov/eServices.aspx?SID=97CF3FCB-5B53-4CFD-AE55-696E27D3522D
log on and select
CAP Online Exams
scroll down and youll see
View Operations Security Video (Optional) if that doesnt work select
  Download Operations Security Video (18635 KB)
hit open...
« Last Edit: March 22, 2008, 04:31:25 AM by C JMeyer » Logged
desertengineer1
Seasoned Member

Posts: 365

« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2008, 09:37:52 PM »

OK, folks.  I don't even begin to claim "authority" on this subject, but as a military member and a Comm guy, here is my $0.02 worth.

1.  I've noticed a disturbing number (albeit small) of people who don't understand what FOUO is, and go over the "spook" cliff, using words like classified and restricted, etc...   Let me be very clear, nothing the normal CAP member does is classified, and most important - none of us are authorized to be originators anyway.

The fault here lies with all of us.  We've done a poor mentorship job of explaining the what and why of FOUO and how it ties to frequencies (and other info).  FOUO is basically a tie-in extension of AF domain policy.  DoD owns the frequencies and set the authoritative policy foundation.  USAF is the component user.  CAP is USAF authorized to use them, and therefore must comply with the rules.  In those rules, OPSEC is the process we're required to use.  Frequencies are in the CI list.

Now, what is the reality?  What's fluff and what's meat?  The meat is just what we've all been briefed - frequencies are FOUO.  You don't give them to your scanner buddy.  You don't give them to your beer pal at the TV station to monitor. 

But there is also the fluff part - to which I'm sorry to admit - but it's a reality.  This is a rule that has no legally binding authority to us as CAP members.  I can sit at my computer and see every frequency at the local AF base on my PCR-1000 spectral display - even though those frequencies are also mandated as FOUO.  No dark clothed ninja spooks will carry me away for listening.  I actually think it's pretty hilarious to hear all the huffing and puffing authority talk about OPSEC and CI's, ect.. and then turn on my radio to hear exactly opposite in practice.  I know what airplanes are broken on the flightline, how many are code 3, who's ordering pizza through base ops, and  who's in the pattern overhead.  Sad...  but I can't change it, and I digress....

The same thing will happen with our new repeaters.  About five minutes after units come on line, they will end up on the scanner forums, and everybody will know.  The OPSEC rule has little teeth with the frequencies themselves.  Who is going to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to prosecute a 13 year old who gets caught blabbing?  No punitive authority is clearly defined anyway.  Absolute worse case, this will earn someone a 2B or a suspension.  No one will be going to prison, and if someone tries, lawyers will have a field day with all the holes and the lawsuits will ensue.  Clicking on an "I agree" button after a briefing is within CAP anyway (suspension, 2B, butt chewing)

Bottom line (reality) the FOUO policy letter was a box to be checked to meet AF OPSEC requirements, and is still something to be followed, regardless.  It places the responsibility on you, the members.  It doesn't matter how many sites the frequencies and PL tones are listed on, you still keep it protected because you represent CAP, and are directly entrusted with the information.  Joe scanner dude watching a spectral display isn't, and is free to post whatever he wants.  Your options are a little different.  If you want to wear the uniform and do the cool airplane stuff, you'll have to follow the policy.       
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desertengineer1
Seasoned Member

Posts: 365

« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2008, 09:50:55 PM »

Radioman, they also have the right to report troop movements if they see them. But we all know what happened when Geraldo did that.

I agree that encryption makes this discussion moot, but until that time, someone with some authority in CAP can ask the Web site owner to take the information down because of its sensitive nature -- regardless of whether it's accurate.

Geraldo signed a very tight contract agreement with the USMC as a condition of his embedded status.  That also included documented, formal training on exactly what and what he was not allowed to discuss.  His violation of that agreement earned the trip home - at his own (network's) expense.  You signed nothing of the sort, so if you see it, no one can come after you. 

There are those rare times someone sees something they shouldn't have, and get a quick lesson on certain legalities.  But they usually sign NDS's when briefed, and those activities have certain presidential-tied authorities that don't come under john Q public freedom.  They also have goobs of legal process checks to boot.  Joe Q Public won't be around it anyway.
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BuckeyeDEJ
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,059
Unit: GLR-001

« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2008, 12:41:05 PM »

GerryRiv went through embed training and spilled it anyway, so thanks for pointing that out (and for pointing out that I didn't). A journalist who agrees not to reveal certain sensitive information (be it off the record, deep background, whatever) has to stand by that agreement.
As a newspaper editor in real life, I know that if confidential information is revealed by an authoritative source (without an agreement, mind you) and I print it, the liability doesn't fall on my shoulders. Of course, I'm going to intensely grill a reporter to ensure my butt's covered.
In much the same way, liability doesn't fall on someone who publishes freqs and other guarded information on the Web after finding it through totally legal means.
When I said CAP NHQ can persuade Web site owners to take down sensitive information, it's no different than following up with someone to get a nondisclosure statement signed. Of course, it's like trying to stop leaks in a sieve, one hole at a time....
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CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group and wing PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member, at region level now
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now in marketing.
desertengineer1
Seasoned Member

Posts: 365

« Reply #47 on: April 23, 2008, 05:58:33 PM »

My post certainly wasn't intended to "catch"  LOL!   :)  I was deployed for two tours and was familiar with the standards they are put under.  With his history in previous news (Murrah), I wasn't surprised.  IMHO, I think he was lucky not to have the snot beat out of him and left tied to a stump.

With respect to information, lawyers can do a much better job with the details than I can, but I think it boils down to both what you are legally "oathed" to do, who the originator is (they signed the 312 in your example, not you), and the actual intent of the act when measured against the first two - an acid test.  For the military people, the NDA (SF 312) is the first part of the triad.  It is a legal record that you are briefed (and understand) your responsibilities - and does spell out the possible penalties.  As CAP members, you have signed no such equivalent (clicking on a web page button does not count).  Any "threats" of prosecution or legal action to someone who does release something like frequencies has no tangable teeth.  But the process within CAP does.  So while you most likely cannot be prosecuted or charged legally (as I have heard several members say, and patiently endure my drivel about it - LOL), CAP can darned sure issue suspension or termination - because it's well under the conditions of membership, and ultimately falls under the authority of the wing commanders (the membership priveledge vs right argument).

The AF (DoD) does not have jurisdiction over you as they do with military members.  Any yahoo can (and I expect they will) post wing frequencies.  You have no authority to force them to do anything.

Besides, some additional civil liberty arguments can be made that the moment a repeater is radiating, you're open broadcasting the frequency anyway.

I'm definately not advocating going against the FOUO policy letter and blabbing info.  I'm just being honest about the legal facts.  The frequencies WILL be available on google within days, and to assume otherwise is pretty absurd.  As a member, I follow the policy letter, say "sorry, can't help you", and press on to more important things that I can control.

Again, just my $0.02 thoughts.....


GerryRiv went through embed training and spilled it anyway, so thanks for pointing that out (and for pointing out that I didn't). A journalist who agrees not to reveal certain sensitive information (be it off the record, deep background, whatever) has to stand by that agreement.
As a newspaper editor in real life, I know that if confidential information is revealed by an authoritative source (without an agreement, mind you) and I print it, the liability doesn't fall on my shoulders. Of course, I'm going to intensely grill a reporter to ensure my butt's covered.
In much the same way, liability doesn't fall on someone who publishes freqs and other guarded information on the Web after finding it through totally legal means.
When I said CAP NHQ can persuade Web site owners to take down sensitive information, it's no different than following up with someone to get a nondisclosure statement signed. Of course, it's like trying to stop leaks in a sieve, one hole at a time....
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MajFitzpatrick
Recruit

Posts: 23

« Reply #48 on: April 23, 2008, 07:21:08 PM »

I really have to agree with desert above. FOUO is a process we as members abide by. We can't punish civilians from getting the information. Just don't advertise it. We have secret and top secret stuff that gets out, Its a fact of life. We just need to try not to disclose this information so everyone knows (Even if they already do). Its the "game" we play.
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Putting Warheads on foreheads
chanson1
Recruit

Posts: 5

« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2009, 09:00:35 PM »

Anyone know where I can find OPLAN-1000?
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Christian M. Hanson
us11cav
Recruit

Posts: 28

« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2009, 12:57:03 AM »

Just a word of caution: Regardless of what freqs are published or not published--as has been mentioned here--the freqs are not encrypted, and people listen in with scanners. Someone from the FAA told me they were monitoring your traffic during a SAR and that they were "very turned off" by the fact that the CAP chatter had more to do with people worrying about who, what, when and how they were going to be paid for fuel used for the search, than with the SAR op.

Radio discipline is always a good habit. Save the chatter for the water cooler.
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RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 10,900

« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2009, 10:37:25 AM »

Quote
Someone from the FAA told me they were monitoring your traffic during a SAR and that they were "very turned off" by the fact that the CAP chatter had more to do with people worrying about who, what, when and how they were going to be paid for fuel used for the search, than with the SAR op.
I can't say that I've ever heard that sort of talk on a CAP radio since that is usually worked out before the mission starts.  I suspect they were hearing talk about where to send fuel tickets and other documentation.  It costs a lot of money to launch an airplane and making sure that we get all the paperwork in order is absoulutely critical and is definetely official business.  If the FAA doesn't like us talking about it, they can just shove it. 
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,683

« Reply #52 on: May 26, 2009, 11:38:36 AM »

Paying for the mission is part of the mission.

No bucks, no Buck Rogers.
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

N Harmon
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 776
Unit: GLR-MI-063

Monroe Composite Squadron
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2009, 04:35:17 PM »

Civil Air Patrol tries to keep operational communications on our designated command and control frequencies as opposed to the AM aircraft band that FAA would be monitoring. That FAA expressed feelings of being "very turned off" seems to be more a reflection of their ignorance in how we conduct our operations.

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NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron
heliodoc
Suspended

Posts: 945

« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2009, 04:49:42 PM »

While some our membership can tell the FAA to shove it and how the relections of FAA ignorance and MAYBE

NONETHELESS, maybe we can conduct our operations and limit the chatter on fuel reciepts til on the ground..

Seems to me with CAP talking and preaching sterile cockpit when needed, the fuel reciept chatter CAN WAIT til on the ground.

The"critical" fuel paperwork can wait til the prop stops.  In my mind, as a very green MP, where I fly, that is CHATTER and not operational in the "box"

Pay attention to the SAR mission and do and talk the paperwork about fuel on the ground.

Just keep on keepin' on about telling the FAA to shove ........REAL PROFESSIONAL , folks
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N Harmon
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 776
Unit: GLR-MI-063

Monroe Composite Squadron
« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2009, 07:43:10 AM »

Of course, none of us have a clue who or what this chatter was about, or by whom so it's all speculation on our part. We don't know if this communication occurred before or after the prop stopped.

All I'm saying is that if the only communication of ours non-CAP people are aware of is our talking to the FBO about getting gas, then that is good opsec and kudos to the members for keeping CAP business on CAP channels.
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NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron
Cecil DP
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,208

« Reply #56 on: October 09, 2009, 07:23:47 PM »

Thanks for that. Itype fast sorry. What sensetive information do we broadcast on our radios that we dont want the general public toknow? The only thing I canthink of is names of deceased people we find. In my other little organiztion known as the United States Army, we do have very sensative items. I just dont see that in CAP. Sorry
And you still didn't use the spell check

A simple explanation of For Official Use Only is it's none of your business. If someone asks for information they have no need to know whether they're a member of CAP, the Armed Forces, or the media it's none of their business. If they persist refer them to someone higher in the chain-preferably the Information people. When I was at CENTCOM, I had no problem telling Colonels and a few Generals that  the information they were asking for was not available to them and if they had any problem with that there was a  BG was down the hall., who could tell them the same thing.
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Michael P. McEleney
LtCol CAP
MSG  USA Retired
GRW#436 Feb 85
starshippe
Suspended

Posts: 238
Unit: ser-ga-072

« Reply #57 on: March 28, 2011, 05:45:08 PM »


. . are u actually looking for a copy of oplan 1000, or is it a trick question!!!???


bill
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,683

« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2011, 05:47:41 PM »


. . are u actually looking for a copy of oplan 1000, or is it a trick question!!!???

. . you denecroed
. . an 18 month old
. . thread
. . for that?
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
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Jack172402
Recruit

Posts: 10

« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2012, 02:40:30 PM »

Thanks for pledging this, as online security is an increasing problem in all governmental departments.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,683

« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2012, 02:47:26 PM »

Thanks for pledging this, as online security is an increasing problem in all governmental departments.


. . you denecroed
. . an 18 month old
. . thread
. . for that?
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

♠SARKID♠
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,825
Unit: GLR-WI-002

Timmerman Composite Squadron - WIWG - CAP
« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2012, 07:48:28 PM »

The Zombie-Thread Apocalypse has begun.
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           Capt. Dan Turkal
..
                WI-002/CC
.
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