Why is there a difference between some medal ribbons and their small ribbons?

Started by Guardrail, January 21, 2007, 01:38:26 AM

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Guardrail

I have been wondering for a long time, why the ribbons on some CAP medals do not match those of their small ribbon counterparts.  I would think that NHQ would want them to be the same, but apparently that is not the case. 

Does anyone know why? 

shorning


Guardrail

Quote from: shorning on January 21, 2007, 01:41:34 AM
As a non-member, why do you care?

Former cadet, sir.  I care because I've always wondered why some of the ribbons on medals don't match their small ribbon counterparts, and would like to find out (and help fix the problem).  

arajca

The drapes on the miniature medals are from the original designs of the ribbons. (i.e. IACE ribbonwas orignially red with white tri-bladed propellors). As time went by, it became cheaper to make the ribbons by removing the pictures from the ribbons and just having either solid colors or vertical separations.

Guardrail

Quote from: arajca on January 21, 2007, 01:53:31 AM
The drapes on the miniature medals are from the original designs of the ribbons. (i.e. IACE ribbon was orignially red with white tri-bladed propellors). As time went by, it became cheaper to make the ribbons by removing the pictures from the ribbons and just having either solid colors or vertical separations.

Yes sir, but like with the Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Search & Rescue and Unit Citation medals, more than just the pictures on the ribbons are removed.  The drapes of each of these medals all differ from their ribbon counterparts in that the vertical stripes are different. 

It can't be that expensive to reproduce stripes on ribbons.

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: Guardrail on January 21, 2007, 02:11:11 AMYes sir, but like with the Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Search & Rescue and Unit Citation medals, more than just the pictures on the ribbons are removed.  The drapes of each of these medals all differ from their ribbon counterparts in that the vertical stripes are different. 

It can't be that expensive to reproduce stripes on ribbons.

See my response to your similar post on CadetStuff: http://forums.cadetstuff.org/viewtopic.php?t=7382

For those not inclined to follow the link, the number of stars also denoted the cadet phase the milestone represented.

Mitchell - Phase II - two stars
Spaatz - Phase IV - four stars (There was no Eaker Award back then.)

Since Amelia Earhart was a silly-villian, the ribbon back then was a stylized red, white and blue shield with a red, white and blue horizontal stripe. The mess dress ribbon drape was - and still is - a veritable barber pole.

When the cadet ribbons lost their pictures in 1984, the milestone ribbons lost their stars for stripes. Two for the Mitchell, three for the Earhart and four for the Spaatz. Again, Eaker wasn't around back then.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

NIN

Quote from: Guardrail on January 21, 2007, 01:45:03 AM
Former cadet, sir.  I care because I've always wondered why some of the ribbons on medals don't match their small ribbon counterparts, and would like to find out (and help fix the problem).   

Semantics. 

I'm a former Cub Scout, you don't see me searching for ways to improve or alter Webelo insignia, do you?

From where I sit, you don't have a dog in this hunt.  So why are you all fired up about it?

I smell another TexasBEAST in the making.



Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

shorning

Yup.  And I'm a former high school student.  Doesn't mean I'm making plans for the prom. ::)

And help fix the "problem"?  What "problem"?  What's broken?  Just because it doesn't make sense to you, does mean it's a problem.

Quote from: NIN on January 21, 2007, 03:29:34 AM
I smell another TexasBEAST in the making.

I smell another Smitty in the making... ::)

Guardrail

I guess I said that wrong.  Lt Col Horning is right: it's not a problem.  It's just an economic issue.  National HQ either doesn't have the funds to change the drapes on the Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Search & Rescue, Unit Citation, and IACE medals to match those on the ribbons, or it is economically disadvantageous.

I came with a question, and found an answer.  Thanks to all who helped me find it.

mikeylikey

Quote from: Guardrail on January 21, 2007, 04:35:14 AM
I guess I said that wrong.  Lt Col Horning is right: it's not a problem.  It's just an economic issue.  National HQ doesn't have the funds to change the drapes on the Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Search & Rescue, Unit Citation, and IACE medals to match those on the ribbons.

I came with a question, and found an answer.  Thanks to all who helped me find it.

Actually, they can make them whatever they wanted them to be, and Vanguard would spit them out to the membership.  The membership would then "pay" for the change, not NHQ.



What's up monkeys?

Guardrail

Quote from: mikeylikey on January 21, 2007, 04:44:39 AM
Quote from: Guardrail on January 21, 2007, 04:35:14 AM
I guess I said that wrong.  Lt Col Horning is right: it's not a problem.  It's just an economic issue.  National HQ doesn't have the funds to change the drapes on the Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Search & Rescue, Unit Citation, and IACE medals to match those on the ribbons.

I came with a question, and found an answer.  Thanks to all who helped me find it.

Actually, they can make them whatever they wanted them to be, and Vanguard would spit them out to the membership.  The membership would then "pay" for the change, not NHQ.

I wonder if that would ever happen?  It sounds like there's no economic disadvantage to having the membership pay for the change. 

shorning

Quote from: Guardrail on January 21, 2007, 04:35:14 AM
National HQ either doesn't have the funds to change the drapes on the Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Search & Rescue, Unit Citation, and IACE medals to match those on the ribbons, or it is economically disadvantageous.

Could it possibly be that they haven't changed the ribbons for another reason?  Come on, you're far to old to be that linear of a thinker.

Hawk200

Quote from: Guardrail on January 21, 2007, 04:48:22 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on January 21, 2007, 04:44:39 AM
Quote from: Guardrail on January 21, 2007, 04:35:14 AM
I guess I said that wrong.  Lt Col Horning is right: it's not a problem.  It's just an economic issue.  National HQ doesn't have the funds to change the drapes on the Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Search & Rescue, Unit Citation, and IACE medals to match those on the ribbons.

I came with a question, and found an answer.  Thanks to all who helped me find it.

Actually, they can make them whatever they wanted them to be, and Vanguard would spit them out to the membership.  The membership would then "pay" for the change, not NHQ.

I wonder if that would ever happen?  It sounds like there's no economic disadvantage to having the membership pay for the change. 

There is an economic disadvantage to the membership paying for it. Many might not want to, plus if processed through National, National would have to foot the bill initially.

Second, why do we need to redesign back to the originals? Many people didn't like some of the older style ribbons and medals, considering them "cartoonish". Why try to reinstate something that was done away with that the membership didn't care for in the first place?

I imagine that you probably wouldn't go taking spoons of castor oil just for old times sake, would you?

Besides, medals for the mess dress aren't really all that spectacular. For seniors, there is a medal version of every single senior ribbon authorized for wear. If a senior has ten ribbons, then said senior would have ten medals for wear on the mess dress. Doesn't that seem a little like unnecessary extravagance?

Guardrail

Quote from: shorning on January 21, 2007, 04:55:39 AM
Quote from: Guardrail on January 21, 2007, 04:35:14 AM
National HQ either doesn't have the funds to change the drapes on the Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Search & Rescue, Unit Citation, and IACE medals to match those on the ribbons, or it is economically disadvantageous.

Could it possibly be that they haven't changed the ribbons for another reason?  Come on, you're far to old to be that linear of a thinker.

Could it be tradition, sir?

Guardrail

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 21, 2007, 05:00:52 AMThere is an economic disadvantage to the membership paying for it. Many might not want to, plus if processed through National, National would have to foot the bill initially.

Oh, okay.  Now I see how it works.  I learn something new every day.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 21, 2007, 05:00:52 AMSecond, why do we need to redesign back to the originals? Many people didn't like some of the older style ribbons and medals, considering them "cartoonish". Why try to reinstate something that was done away with that the membership didn't care for in the first place?

I imagine that you probably wouldn't go taking spoons of castor oil just for old times sake, would you?

Actually, I'd like to see the ribbons match the drapes of their corresponding medals.  I don't want the pictures back on the ribbons, as I too think they are cartoonish.

So for the Mitchell Ribbon, 2 vertical white stripes at each end of the ribbon; for Earhart, red & blue vertical stripes all down the ribbon; for Spaatz/SAR/and Unit Citation Medals, 1 vertical white stripe at each end of the ribbon.

I figure it would be cheaper to replace the ribbons than replace the drapes for the medals.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 21, 2007, 05:00:52 AMBesides, medals for the mess dress aren't really all that spectacular. For seniors, there is a medal version of every single senior ribbon authorized for wear. If a senior has ten ribbons, then said senior would have ten medals for wear on the mess dress. Doesn't that seem a little like unnecessary extravagance?

Yes it does, Hawk200.  Especially for things like the encampment ribbon and senior recruiter ribbon. 

ColonelJack

To diverge into a similar-but-not-the-same-thing topic ...

Why do the ribbons not have full-sized medals?  I know we'd never wear them -- the AF doesn't wear full-sized on anything, as far as I know (but hey, I was AD 30 years ago and things have changed), but they'd be nice for your shadow box.

Anyone else ever wonder why officers (and the top cadet awards) don't come with full-sized medals, at least made available for purchase?

(Note:  I realize that SMV, BMV, and Distinguished Service do have full-sized versions for presentation purposes.)

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

arajca


James Shaw

We only have 3 full sized medals mainly because of the costs and "prestige" associated with them and as stated earlier for "presentation purposes". The SMV, BMV, and Distinguished are the only ones currently that have to be approved by a majority vote of the National Board members. These are the ones that by regs are the hardest to attain or earn. In many cases the SMV, BMV or Dist may not be awarded for a couple of years after, because of the Nomination and possibly approval of the award. If you look at the new National Commanders Unit Commendation it is actually the same ribbon as the US Navy Expeditionary Medal (Est 1936). This design was chosen by the Nat Commander. The other decorations or awards were modified to appear fairly close to the original but be economical at the same time. As with the Unit Commendation ribbon you have a solid green ribbon (originally a JR ROTC ribbon) and the mini medal has the white stripes. Also taken into consideration is the number awarded of the SMV, BMV or Dist, as compared to the Exceptional, Meritorious or Commanders Commendation. The top three may have a few a year for the MV or about 5-10 for the Dist. The Exceptional (about 50) Mer (about 100) and Comm (about 1000). The design process, the approval process (more than a dozen exploratory awards are turned down each year) initial production cost for the dies for the medals, ribbon manufacturing, and the anticipated number of recipients are all considered. Even when members af the Historical Group are asked to submit possible designs for awards those have allready gone through the "exploratory committe" approval phase and reach possible designers. We also have to consider the number of the awards given and the costs associted with the certificates and mailing.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

lordmonar

Quote from: ColonelJack on January 21, 2007, 02:17:55 PM
Why do the ribbons not have full-sized medals?  I know we'd never wear them -- the AF doesn't wear full-sized on anything, as far as I know (but hey, I was AD 30 years ago and things have changed), but they'd be nice for your shadow box.

Some ultra formal uniforms like the honor guard do wear full size medals...but you are right the rank and file never get a chance to wear full size medals.

Why do we still have them.....tradition.  Congress authorised the medals for wear...when you stand up and they read the citation...that is your medal.  The ribbon and mini-medal are just represntations of the real medal you have in the shadow box.

Quote from: ColonelJack on January 21, 2007, 02:17:55 PMAnyone else ever wonder why officers (and the top cadet awards) don't come with full-sized medals, at least made available for purchase?

(Note:  I realize that SMV, BMV, and Distinguished Service do have full-sized versions for presentation purposes.)

It is simply costs.  We don't have enough demand for them which would make them cost abour $15-$20 each.  We can't get cadets and units to buy two rank insignia because it is too expensive (from another thread) that we ask someone to buy a medal that a cadet could never wear after the presntation ceremony.


(or worse...have you ever seen the JROTC guys got to party? with both ribbons, and medal and all their competion medals? I was a judge at the Far East Cadet Comition....gods it was scarry.  Cords on both shoulders.  2-3 cords on the the same shoulder.  Medals and ribbons on the service coat, "olympic medals" from the previous year's cadet competition.  If we gave a CAP cadet a medal...you know he is going to find some place to wear it.  Like the next cadet ball!)

I have got to say...as far as I am concerned CAP does a much better job of uniform policies than any of the JROTCs.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

ColonelJack

Thank you for your answers, gang.  I guess what I am suggesting is that they be made available for those officers who want them, just as the miniature medals are.  An officer who wants a full shadow box won't mind paying the $15 to $20 each full-size medal would cost, and those who don't -- or who think such bling is silly -- wouldn't have to do so.

The ribbon drape already exists, as do the medal faces (miniature dies, to be sure, but they can be cut in full-size as well).  There's no need to re-design the drape or the medal itself, as those designs are already there.  (They may suck as medal designs, but they're there.)

I've often thought of trying to get hold of enough ribbon to make drapes for each of my CAP awards, and the proper size and shape blank medallions, and have my own set created.  If I do, I'll let you all see what it looks like.

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

lordmonar

Quote from: ColonelJack on January 21, 2007, 11:08:09 PM
Thank you for your answers, gang.  I guess what I am suggesting is that they be made available for those officers who want them, just as the miniature medals are.  An officer who wants a full shadow box won't mind paying the $15 to $20 each full-size medal would cost, and those who don't -- or who think such bling is silly -- wouldn't have to do so.

The ribbon drape already exists, as do the medal faces (miniature dies, to be sure, but they can be cut in full-size as well).  There's no need to re-design the drape or the medal itself, as those designs are already there.  (They may suck as medal designs, but they're there.)

I've often thought of trying to get hold of enough ribbon to make drapes for each of my CAP awards, and the proper size and shape blank medallions, and have my own set created.  If I do, I'll let you all see what it looks like.

The problem is set up costs....to mint a coin/medal a production run of 1 costs just as much as a production run of 200.

I'm sure that national could ask vanguard or any medal company to make them...but they would have to buy at least 200 of each kind...for every medal (somithing like 20 off the top of my head) at say $15 bucks a pop....That would be a $60,000 initial investment by CAP to start this up.

I like the idea...but I'd rather CAP spend the money on O-rides or Flying hours.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Hawk200

Quote from: ColonelJack on January 21, 2007, 11:08:09 PM
Thank you for your answers, gang.  I guess what I am suggesting is that they be made available for those officers who want them, just as the miniature medals are.  An officer who wants a full shadow box won't mind paying the $15 to $20 each full-size medal would cost, and those who don't -- or who think such bling is silly -- wouldn't have to do so.

The ribbon drape already exists, as do the medal faces (miniature dies, to be sure, but they can be cut in full-size as well).  There's no need to re-design the drape or the medal itself, as those designs are already there.  (They may suck as medal designs, but they're there.)

I've often thought of trying to get hold of enough ribbon to make drapes for each of my CAP awards, and the proper size and shape blank medallions, and have my own set created.  If I do, I'll let you all see what it looks like.

Jack

There's a few reasons that these kinds of medals wouldn't be only about $15 to 20 each. If they were initially commissioned, they would probably vary anywhere from $50 to $100 each. Mostly because of initial low demand.

Second, when a company like Vanguard  initially produces a design, they want to make as much money back initially as possible. Which means the first few batches produced would be spendy.

Third, even at 15 to 20 bucks apiece, that adds up, considering how freely CAP gives out ribbons. For me, that would be $135 to $180. Some people will balk at getting a whole set. (Yes, I know they don't have to, but many will look at it like that.)

And it already costs a few bucks for us to maintain membership. Shopping practically, a new service coat would be equal in cost, or you could get a couple pairs of BDU's. Full size medals overall just aren't a really practical concept. Nice idea, but not practical.

Guardrail

I wonder how much it would cost for CAP to redesign the drapes of the aforementioned mini medals (Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Unit Citation and Search & Rescue) to match those of the ribbons, or vice-versa?

We're only talking about 6 medals here. 

Pylon

Quote from: Guardrail on January 22, 2007, 01:16:17 AM
I wonder how much it would cost for CAP to redesign the drapes of the aforementioned mini medals (Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Unit Citation and Search & Rescue) to match those of the ribbons, or vice-versa?

We're only talking about 6 medals here. 

Because when I want to add a mini-medal to my mess dress uniform, I don't want the price of the medal going up at all because somebody else wanted to tinker with the designs.

Do I like the designs of our mini-medals?  No.   I think they're plain, uninteresting, poorly designed medals.  But I'm a designer by trade, so I have a strong opinion about these types of things.  It still doesn't mean I want them to change, because it's already [darn] expensive enough when I shell out $7 per medal as it is now.  I don't think most CAP members want to see increased price in anything we purchase, whether voluntary or not, unless what they're getting is truly a superior product and vast improvement.   

There's no confusion over the drapes now, right?  I don't look at another SM wearing mess dress and think "Oh man!  That's crazy!  I can't figure out what medal he's wearing there on the second row in the middle!   I'm going to have to go ask him wha... oh, I need another drink......"

Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: Guardrail on January 22, 2007, 01:16:17 AM
I wonder how much it would cost for CAP to redesign the drapes of the aforementioned mini medals (Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Unit Citation and Search & Rescue) to match those of the ribbons, or vice-versa?

That may be a more cost-effective way of doing it, but youre gonna run into opposition from those who do sport mess dress regularly - nichts mich. Some will probably spend some dollars to get the rack professionally mounted. And it ain't easy pulling 'em apart, unless you use the standard mess dress ribbon holders.

Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

lordmonar

Quote from: Guardrail on January 22, 2007, 01:16:17 AM
I wonder how much it would cost for CAP to redesign the drapes of the aforementioned mini medals (Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Unit Citation and Search & Rescue) to match those of the ribbons, or vice-versa?

We're only talking about 6 medals here. 

Not counting that they would automatically lose all the money they have tied up in inventory.....At a guess....set up fees would be about $100 a pop....then depending on the initial run (say 2000 each) you are looking at CAP spending around $60K to redo, produce and restock six mini medals...so they match their ribbon rack ribbon.

How many people wear the mess dress anyway?  If they were in that high of a demand...they would have changed them when they changed the full size ribbon.  But they did not.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

DNall

I'm not sure it'd go 60k. You're talking about changing out the drapes, not the metal. How much do standard ribbons cost? 80 cents. Figure you could send in your old-stly minis & have them converted for a couple bucks a piece plus shipping. Producing the fabric isn't expensive, nor is preparing it to be mounted. The metal dangles are the expensive part & those would cost quite a lot to change, which is NOT what was proposed.

I have to say though that it's just not that big a deal. I don't see the call for it so it isn't happening.

SAR-EMT1

For the record, I am a 22 year old 1st Lt. and a meager one at that  ;D
However I am bound for AD (AFROTC) sooner or later -medical hold-
And I come from a military family.
That all said, while I dont give a hoot or holler about mess dress...
(hey I can just as easily buy a semesters worth of text books)
BUT I would be willing to shell out for Full sized for the box ...down the road when Im old feeble and ready to have a shadow box *along with my nice silver oak leaves*
What would the price to work up be if left to a possible 3rd party vendor -vanguard overcharges soo much- AND made sure it was a phased introduction. ?
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

Dragoon

A better question might be "why does CAP have mini-medals at all for ribbons that, were we USAF, wouldn
t rate a medal at all?"

Education and training ribbons, by and large, don't get medals in the real world.  Just "attaboys" and campaign related stuff.

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: Dragoon on January 22, 2007, 02:36:06 PM
A better question might be "why does CAP have mini-medals at all for ribbons that, were we USAF, wouldn
t rate a medal at all?"

Education and training ribbons, by and large, don't get medals in the real world.  Just "attaboys" and campaign related stuff.

CAP was authorized wear of the mini-medals when the Air Force allowed us to wear the mess dress uniform in 1969 (the old black and white with sleeve and shoulder board braid in ultramarine blue). For reasons unknown (bling envy?) CAP decided to model all available senior member awards into mini-medals. The Silver and Bronze Medals of Valor and the Distinguished/Exceptional/Meritorious Service awards are the only CAP mini-medals that do not have their medals in a round shape.

Best thing about the all-or-some rule for mess dress: you don't hafta wear all of 'em if you dont wanna look like a banana-republic general.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

Pylon

Quote from: Dragoon on January 22, 2007, 02:36:06 PM
A better question might be "why does CAP have mini-medals at all for ribbons that, were we USAF, wouldn
t rate a medal at all?"

Education and training ribbons, by and large, don't get medals in the real world.  Just "attaboys" and campaign related stuff.

A good answer might be that CAP doesn't actually recognize the contributions of most of its members with "attaboys" awards, like the USAF and other branches of the military.  In CAP, you could save a squadron from closing, implement successful new programs, provide leadership for important projects, and carry about three duty assignments at once for years on end and be recognized with nothing more than maybe a certificate of appreciation.  Some areas in CAP you have to practically save humanity itself to rate a Commander's Commendation.

So those of us, like myself, who have been in over a decade would still probably have nothing on their uniforms.  If that were the case, I'd have an IACE medal and that's probably about it.

I see what you're saying, but CAP doesn't recognize its members so it would look rather sparse for most officers, unless they were wing staff.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Dragoon

Quote from: Pylon on January 22, 2007, 03:33:12 PM
A good answer might be that CAP doesn't actually recognize the contributions of most of its members with "attaboys" awards, like the USAF and other branches of the military.  In CAP, you could save a squadron from closing, implement successful new programs, provide leadership for important projects, and carry about three duty assignments at once for years on end and be recognized with nothing more than maybe a certificate of appreciation.  Some areas in CAP you have to practically save humanity itself to rate a Commander's Commendation.


Understand I'm not faulting the ribbons.  I'm faulting the medals.  Giving out ribbons for things like PD, flying cadet orientation rides, etc have a pretty good precedent in the military.  But if we wanted to be USAF-y with our mini medals, you'd only have em for, say:


The Red Service Ribbon (kind of our good conduct medal)
The Air Search and Rescue Ribbon (kind of our Air Medal)
The Find Ribbon
Commanders Commendation
Meriotorious Service Award
Exceptional Service Award
Distinguished Service Award
Lifesaving Award
Unit Citation (maybe)
Distinguished Service Medal
Bronze Medal of Valor
Silver Medal of Valor
Counterdrug Ribbon (maybe)
Disaster Relief Ribbon (but probably only if earned through service, rather than training)

Most everything else would just be a ribbon.  Which means for most members, nothing would change.  Just less dangly stuff for the few who wear mess dress.

lordmonar

Quote from: DNall on January 22, 2007, 09:54:49 AM
I'm not sure it'd go 60k. You're talking about changing out the drapes, not the metal. How much do standard ribbons cost? 80 cents. Figure you could send in your old-stly minis & have them converted for a couple bucks a piece plus shipping. Producing the fabric isn't expensive, nor is preparing it to be mounted. The metal dangles are the expensive part & those would cost quite a lot to change, which is NOT what was proposed.

I have to say though that it's just not that big a deal. I don't see the call for it so it isn't happening.

Well if you figure production costs.  Mini medals cost $6.25 retail....let's assume a 100% mark up...so we are talking about $3 per unit.  Even if you count the savings that you would have by reusing the old medal disks...you have to figure the costs of removing them from the old mini medals....I would guess that it would just be cheaper to start from scratch.

So....Vanguard or CAP would have to foot the initial production runs.  Six medals....2000 units per run at $3 each is $24K....so I over estimated.  I used the retail costs as my orginal estimate instead of "at cost" figure.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

AlphaSigOU

I'd probably keep the highest senior PD award completed, much like the former cadinks who can keep their highest cadet milestone award when they succumb to the dark side.

So if you earned the GRW, by all means wear it! But if not, a Garber, Loening or Davis is fine.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

Hawk200

Quote from: Dragoon on January 22, 2007, 03:57:24 PM
Quote from: Pylon on January 22, 2007, 03:33:12 PM
A good answer might be that CAP doesn't actually recognize the contributions of most of its members with "attaboys" awards, like the USAF and other branches of the military.  In CAP, you could save a squadron from closing, implement successful new programs, provide leadership for important projects, and carry about three duty assignments at once for years on end and be recognized with nothing more than maybe a certificate of appreciation.  Some areas in CAP you have to practically save humanity itself to rate a Commander's Commendation.


Understand I'm not faulting the ribbons.  I'm faulting the medals.  Giving out ribbons for things like PD, flying cadet orientation rides, etc have a pretty good precedent in the military.  But if we wanted to be USAF-y with our mini medals, you'd only have em for, say:


The Red Service Ribbon (kind of our good conduct medal)
The Air Search and Rescue Ribbon (kind of our Air Medal)
The Find Ribbon
Commanders Commendation
Meriotorious Service Award
Exceptional Service Award
Distinguished Service Award
Lifesaving Award
Unit Citation (maybe)
Distinguished Service Medal
Bronze Medal of Valor
Silver Medal of Valor
Counterdrug Ribbon (maybe)
Disaster Relief Ribbon (but probably only if earned through service, rather than training)

Most everything else would just be a ribbon.  Which means for most members, nothing would change.  Just less dangly stuff for the few who wear mess dress.


I could get on board with that list. Seems fair to all, and seems to be something that would mirror the military's concept of decorations.

MIKE

Quote from: Dragoon on January 22, 2007, 03:57:24 PM
The Red Service Ribbon (kind of our good conduct medal)

More like the Air Force Longevity Service Award:


Quote from: Dragoon on January 22, 2007, 03:57:24 PM
The Air Search and Rescue Ribbon (kind of our Air Medal)

Maybe for the aircrews, but I would say not really.
Mike Johnston

SAR-EMT1

But alas the USAF has never had the sense of the USCG to grant its Auxiliarist brethren real ribbons and awards. ... And I dont see that changing without some serious lobbying.
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

Hawk200

Quote from: MIKE on January 22, 2007, 06:22:16 PM
Quote from: Dragoon on January 22, 2007, 03:57:24 PM
The Red Service Ribbon (kind of our good conduct medal)

More like the Air Force Longevity Service Award:

I would have to agree on that note. Maybe we should consider revising the award criteria for the Red Service, make it more in line with what a good conduct medal would is. Only award it when there is good behaviour, consistent progression through the program, and regular consistent attendance.

When active duty, I knew people that didn't get a good conduct, but still received the longevity. Which could bring some questions like: "Why do you have two awards of the Longevity, but only one Good Conduct medal?". It would show that you got into trouble.

I don't see any reason to have two separate timecounter decs, but we could work on the Red Service.

Hawk200

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 22, 2007, 06:25:10 PM
But alas the USAF has never had the sense of the USCG to grant its Auxiliarist brethren real ribbons and awards. ... And I dont see that changing without some serious lobbying.

True. The Air Force seems to treat us like pets. Gives us a pat on the head when we do good, but rarely gives us any treats. And seriously berates us when there are problems.

Dragoon

I realize that USCGAUX guys can get a some CG medals, but they also have a slew of their own.

Most CGAUX guys I've seen (and admittedly, that ain't a lot) haven't had an real CG medals except perhaps a unit citation.

Anyone have the inside scoop on how often Auxies get real CG awards?

DNall

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 22, 2007, 06:46:15 PM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 22, 2007, 06:25:10 PM
But alas the USAF has never had the sense of the USCG to grant its Auxiliarist brethren real ribbons and awards. ... And I dont see that changing without some serious lobbying.
True. The Air Force seems to treat us like pets. Gives us a pat on the head when we do good, but rarely gives us any treats. And seriously berates us when there are problems.
AF ribbons wouldn't be classified as "pats on the head?" I think that's exactly what they'd be, the AF thanking indiv members for service to the AF. That seems completely appropriate. Obviously not all ribbons are awardable to civilians, but about half are. A couple others I think would be nice to open up for CAP.

The whole CG & Aux got a Pres unit citation for Katrina/Rita. Something for 9/11 also I think, even if you were on the ther side of the country. There's also a gold lifesaving award or something like that, I forget off hand, but a handful that are meant to be awarded to CG memebrs as well as civilians.

By the way, AF cut the good conduct medal just recently. Longevity is a good re-name for the red service ribbon. few of them could do with just new names.

MIKE

Quote from: Dragoon on January 22, 2007, 06:55:40 PM
Anyone have the inside scoop on how often Auxies get real CG awards?

Everybody (Except me.) is getting the CGPUC for being affiliated with the CG during the dates of the citation.  There have been some other awards to the whole Aux at other times like 9-11, and such.

Some Auxies I know from District/Division just got some flavor of Team Award for working in support of a CG unit.  From the citation it seemed like they might be more apt to put Auxies in for these awards than they would for the Gold Side, a real nice thank you, really.  

Mike Johnston

Dragoon

Quote from: MIKE on January 22, 2007, 07:30:41 PM

Everybody (Except me.) is getting the CGPUC for being affiliated with the CG during the dates of the citation.  There have been some other awards to the whole Aux at other times like 9-11, and such.

Some Auxies I know from District/Division just got some flavor of Team Award for working in support of a CG unit.  From the citation it seemed like they might be more apt to put Auxies in for these awards than they would for the Gold Side, a real nice thank you, really.

As I posted, I've seen the unit citations on Auxies.  But how's about Coast Guard Achievement or Commendation Medals, the Coast Guard Medal or the Commandant's Letter of Commendation Ribbon etc.?

Tags - MIKE


MIKE

Quote from: Dragoon on January 22, 2007, 07:37:03 PM
As I posted, I've seen the unit citations on Auxies.  But how's about Coast Guard Achievement or Commendation Medals, the Coast Guard Medal or the Commandant's Letter of Commendation Ribbon etc.?

There's the CG recruiting ribbon and the lifesaving medals, but I think that's pretty much it off-hand.

Edit: Linky
Mike Johnston