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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Tall Tales  |  Topic: Kim Search Report
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Chris Jacobs
Seasoned Member

Posts: 302

« on: January 18, 2007, 11:41:22 PM »

ok here is the Kim search report.  i have not read it yet so i don't have any thing else to say.

http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_011807_news_kim_report_due.51c0dcdc.html#
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C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron
RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,967

« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2007, 12:39:05 AM »

A few thoughts from reading the report:

1.  Wasn't too surprised to see complaints about underfunding of SAR resources right at the front of the report.  Probably true, but I don't see how that had extensive impact in this case.
2.  Oregon seems to be organized in regulating command and control of SAR than other states.  Doesn't bode well that this system, better than most, didn't work very well. 
3.  Conflicts between search leaders who were in law enforcement and civilian SAR mgrs.  Not surprising. 
4.  Major problems with command and control.  This is a big issue for CAP since many airplane searches go across multiple counties and sometimes states. 
5.  Problems with coordinate systems.  Some units (air) were using lat/long while everyone else was using UTM.   Need to be ready to convert from one to another. 
6.  Air asset use was troubled.  Suggested that a TFR early on would have helped.  Talked about NG not wanting to fly till local resources used up and area cleared.  For some reason they mentioned that the NG isn't allowed to compete with private industry.  Were there for-pay SAR helicopter teams there?  If they were volunteers (such as CAP would have been) I wouldn't see an issue. 
7. The family was also conducting their own search, also using air assets.  Also something that happens fairly regularly with missing airplane searches. 
8.  No one was willing to ask for or accept help.  CAP sometimes does this.  Why not ask local ground teams to do some of the stuff during these missing airplane searches under our direction?  Our GTs can't do it all.  Also some reluctance to ask for out-of-Wing help because it makes you look bad. 
9.  Cell phone company was praised for wanting to help, but it was noted that if they weren't a court order would have been necessary to get the info...Report also notes that in other searches cell phone data was not good and resulted in a lot of wasted time. 
10.  Searcher fitness critisized.  Also critisized SWAT guys for wearing black which made it hard for the chopper pilots to see them while lowering them to the ground. 
11.  Spontaneous volunteers caused problems.  Common in the more public lost person searches.  Not as big a deal for CAP, except as noted for some pilots. 
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sardak
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,201

« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2007, 03:42:46 AM »

6.  ...  Talked about NG not wanting to fly till local resources used up and area cleared.  For some reason they mentioned that the NG isn't allowed to compete with private industry.  Were there for-pay SAR helicopter teams there?  If they were volunteers (such as CAP would have been) I wouldn't see an issue.   

There is a rule that federal assets can't "compete" with private enterprise for the same task.  A military helo for example, can't be utilized unless there are no private helos available, it has nothing to do with paid or volunteer.  It's fuzzy because the rule is not applied consistently.  Sometimes the question about private resources being available is not asked by the authorizing government agency.  The ability of the requestor to properly phrase the request to the government, and properly phrase the answers to the government's questions, also has a bearing on the outcome.  The results are dependent on whether or not private resources in an area have made an issue about the non-compete rule.

This federal non-compete rule was carried to the extreme last year when a bill was introduced in Congress to prohibit the National Weather Service from issuing weather forecasts because the federal government (NWS) shouldn't be competing against Accu-Weather, The Weather Channel, etc.

Mike
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sardak
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,201

« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2007, 03:57:28 AM »

CAP was mentioned twice in the report.

Part IV - Agency Timeline entry #102 - OEM was going to try to get CAP for the next day.

Two CAP members listed on page 3 of the list of participants.

Mike
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fyrfitrmedic
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 555

« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2007, 04:39:00 AM »

6.  ...  Talked about NG not wanting to fly till local resources used up and area cleared.  For some reason they mentioned that the NG isn't allowed to compete with private industry.  Were there for-pay SAR helicopter teams there?  If they were volunteers (such as CAP would have been) I wouldn't see an issue.   

There is a rule that federal assets can't "compete" with private enterprise for the same task.  A military helo for example, can't be utilized unless there are no private helos available, it has nothing to do with paid or volunteer.  It's fuzzy because the rule is not applied consistently.  Sometimes the question about private resources being available is not asked by the authorizing government agency.  The ability of the requestor to properly phrase the request to the government, and properly phrase the answers to the government's questions, also has a bearing on the outcome.  The results are dependent on whether or not private resources in an area have made an issue about the non-compete rule.

This federal non-compete rule was carried to the extreme last year when a bill was introduced in Congress to prohibit the National Weather Service from issuing weather forecasts because the federal government (NWS) shouldn't be competing against Accu-Weather, The Weather Channel, etc.

Mike

 That bill was introduced by a now-former senator from Pennsylvania as a favor to the folks who run Accu-Weather of State College PA.
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MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn
RiverAux
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Posts: 10,967

« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2007, 04:34:48 PM »

Quote
There is a rule that federal assets can't "compete" with private enterprise for the same task.  A military helo for example, can't be utilized unless there are no private helos available, it has nothing to do with paid or volunteer. 

I really don't think that applies except to for-profit businesses. 
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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,652

« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2007, 06:25:16 PM »

Quote
There is a rule that federal assets can't "compete" with private enterprise for the same task.  A military helo for example, can't be utilized unless there are no private helos available, it has nothing to do with paid or volunteer. 

I really don't think that applies except to for-profit businesses. 

I can't beleive that anyone would ever say that an IC could not ask for assitance in a life and death situation because of a profit issue!

Smallville, USA may not have a lot of emergency service funds to call in a private SAR force!  If a state had such a rule then they have to be willing to foot the bill for it too!  That would be like saying you can't call the cops when someone is busting into you home until you have exhausted the local security agencies!

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
SeattleSarge
Forum Regular

Posts: 131

Seattle Squadron
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2007, 06:46:27 PM »

The Oregon State Sheriff's Association has posted their SAR review report and supporting documents regarding the Kim search.

I'm posting this link as a learning tool for professional SAR volunteers.

http://www.co.klamath.or.us/sheriff.html

Regards,

Ronald G. Kruml, TSgt, CAP
Public Affairs NCO
Seattle Composite Squadron PCR-WA-018
http://www.capseattlesquadron.org
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Ronald G. Kruml, TSgt, CAP
Public Affairs - Mission Aircrewman
Seattle Composite Squadron PCR-WA-018
http://www.capseattlesquadron.org
JohnKachenmeister
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,352

« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2007, 09:12:42 PM »

Ron:

That was an interesting report.  Very informative. 

There is one question that I have that was not answered by the report.  Why didn't the Sheriff or whoever was responsible for this search call the AFRCC and request assistance.  The AFRCC could have called CAP or tasked other federal resources, and the Kim family member would not have had to be the de-facto air operations director.

I saw an aerial photo of the terrain.  It does not appear to be so bad that fixed wing assets, properly coordinated with rotary wing assets and ground forces, could not have flown over the area.  The Kim vehicle was on a road, and could probably have been visible to an aircraft at 1000-1500 agl.  The terrian, from what I understand, is about 2000-2500 ft. elevation.
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Another former CAP officer
SeattleSarge
Forum Regular

Posts: 131

Seattle Squadron
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2007, 03:04:17 PM »

John,

You are thinking the same thing a lot of us are in Seattle Squadron.  After reading this report, I only have more questions.

I especially like the part where a live CNN broadcast shuts down the command post.

I hope all ICs take the time to read this...

-Ron Kruml

Ronald G. Kruml, TSgt, CAP
Public Affairs Officer
Seattle Composite Squadron PCRWA018
http://www.capseattlesquadron.org
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Ronald G. Kruml, TSgt, CAP
Public Affairs - Mission Aircrewman
Seattle Composite Squadron PCR-WA-018
http://www.capseattlesquadron.org
JohnKachenmeister
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,352

« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2007, 07:24:15 PM »

On TV the local sheriff said that the terrain prevented a search by fixed-wing planes.  When I heard that, I figured the elevation was maybe 10,000 feet or so.

When I looked at the sattelite photo on CAPblog, I was surprised.  The roads were clearly visible from a sattelite.  They would have been more visible from 1500 agl.

Mr. Kim did not have to die.

And regardless of the autopsy results, Dr. Kachenmeister's diagnosis is that he suffered and died from a severe case of Blundering Bureaucrat Syndrome, aggravated by a severe case of Acute Recto-Cranial Introspection.

Be careful out there... It's contagious. 
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Another former CAP officer
sardak
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,201

« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2007, 05:38:20 PM »

Since there are already three separate threads on the Kim search and its aftermath, no need to start another for this.

The Oregon Wing Director of Emergency Services was appointed to the Governor's Search and Rescue Task Force:

The Task Force is to consider whether changes to the laws, administrative rules and related policies of the State of Oregon are necessary to ensure proper coordination and communications between federal, state and local authorities in search and rescue operations.

The Task Force may review and consider any after-action reports of specific search and rescue efforts that it deems relevant to its charge. The Task Force is encouraged to focus and place emphasis on communication, coordination, and the effective pooling of available resources.

Members of the public wishing to submit comments to the task force are encouraged to do so in writing to:

Mr. Ken Murphy
Oregon Office of Emergency Management
P.O. Box 14370
Salem, OR 97309-5062

Mike
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RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,967

« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2007, 07:32:31 PM »

I notice that either on the OR Wing webpage or their newsletter they had a pretty extensive article that reminded people pretty forcefully that they shouldn't go complaining to the press about being left out of a mission...
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MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,471
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2007, 08:54:57 PM »

Since there are already three separate threads on the Kim search and its aftermath, no need to start another for this.

I merged the two Kim Search Report threads.  Have to see if the remaining thread warrants a merge also.
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Mike Johnston
Chris Jacobs
Seasoned Member

Posts: 302

« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2007, 09:37:30 PM »

Here is the executive order that the Governor sent out.

http://governor.oregon.gov/Gov/docs/executive_orders/eo0701.pdf
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C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron
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