IFR Mission

[AirDX]

I'm really enjoying this thread. Working on my instrument now and am glad to hear opinions about how we can (or should or shouldn't) use it for CAP.

If you are IFR the controller is most assuredly responsible for separation from terrain as well as other traffic.  Before we we get into all the "Cite" BS, I was a controller for over 25 years, in center, approach and tower facilities.

Think you mean IFR traffic? Because, last I heard, they don't separate you from VFR traffic except in class B, and that's assuming the VFR actually got their class B clearance...

Well...presumably if the conditions are IMC, there shouldn't be VFR traffic out there to separate you from...And we all know that there are no pilots out there who would go fly in IMC without a clearance, right???   (Not talking about CAP pilots...but I've seen enough "stupid pilot tricks" out there in the world!)

Controllers can correct me, but I thought that they (ATC) were also responsible for separation of VFR and IFR in Class C as well.

IFR without a flight plan/clearance can still happen in class G.  Not that there's a lot of that around CONUS.  Used to catch wind of that type of activity out in the Dakotas when I worked at Minneapolis Center.

[Robborsari]

If you are IFR the controller is most assuredly responsible for separation from terrain as well as other traffic.  Before we we get into all the "Cite" BS, I was a controller for over 25 years, in center, approach and tower facilities.

...
Lost comms are a potential issue... but that's YOUR problem as a pilot, as a controller I don't care.  Putting my pilot hat on, you could  file your departure airport (if it was relatively nearby and met wx requirements, etc) as your alternate.  Lost comms then is fly to the point you've specified, then go back to your departure point and land.

This is what I was thinking of when I mentioned terrain:
3. Vectors IFR aircraft at or above minimum vectoring altitudes.

4. May vector VFR aircraft, not at an ATC assigned altitude, at any altitude. In these cases, terrain separation is the pilot's responsibility.

You are correct.  Vectors for actual IFR are done above the MVA so it is not an issue.  I was thinking of VFR vectors.

As for the comms, I would never give up an IFR clearance unless I was sure I could get somewhere with a repair shop and a mcdonalds under VFR rules. 

[tsrup]

I'm really enjoying this thread. Working on my instrument now and am glad to hear opinions about how we can (or should or shouldn't) use it for CAP.

If you are IFR the controller is most assuredly responsible for separation from terrain as well as other traffic.  Before we we get into all the "Cite" BS, I was a controller for over 25 years, in center, approach and tower facilities.

Think you mean IFR traffic? Because, last I heard, they don't separate you from VFR traffic except in class B, and that's assuming the VFR actually got their class B clearance...

Well...presumably if the conditions are IMC, there shouldn't be VFR traffic out there to separate you from...And we all know that there are no pilots out there who would go fly in IMC without a clearance, right???   (Not talking about CAP pilots...but I've seen enough "stupid pilot tricks" out there in the world!)

Controllers can correct me, but I thought that they (ATC) were also responsible for separation of VFR and IFR in Class C as well.

IFR without a flight plan/clearance can still happen in class G.  Not that there's a lot of that around CONUS.  Used to catch wind of that type of activity out in the Dakotas when I worked at Minneapolis Center.

We would never take advantage of G like that 

[bosshawk]

Rob: another idea to supplement what has already been said: call the approach control for the area or center and tell them your plan.  That will alert the controllers to your mission and what you would like to do.  Fresno Approach and Lemoore Approach would likely love to help you.  Norcal would also likely be ready to help.

[AirDX]

You are correct.  Vectors for actual IFR are done above the MVA so it is not an issue.  I was thinking of VFR vectors.

Why would you need vectors if you're VFR?  Just hang out wherever you want, all the airspace legalities permitting.

[SARDOC]

Let me caveat my naivety but saying I'm not a pilot.  I recently attended an AOPA Safety Briefing though and please correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't this be a Case to use the "Special VFR" rules?  I just haven't heard anybody mention it and listening to the safety brief this sounds almost like the exact scenario given.  Thanks

[tsrup]

Let me caveat my naivety but saying I'm not a pilot.  I recently attended an AOPA Safety Briefing though and please correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't this be a Case to use the "Special VFR" rules?  I just haven't heard anybody mention it and listening to the safety brief this sounds almost like the exact scenario given.  Thanks

not during IMC, no. 

[JeffDG]

Let me caveat my naivety but saying I'm not a pilot.  I recently attended an AOPA Safety Briefing though and please correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't this be a Case to use the "Special VFR" rules?  I just haven't heard anybody mention it and listening to the safety brief this sounds almost like the exact scenario given.  Thanks

Special VFR is very limited.  It's restricted to within only a few miles of an airport, and that airport needs to have at least Class E airspace to the surface.

[RADIOMAN015]

Let me caveat my naivety but saying I'm not a pilot.  I recently attended an AOPA Safety Briefing though and please correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't this be a Case to use the "Special VFR" rules?  I just haven't heard anybody mention it and listening to the safety brief this sounds almost like the exact scenario given.  Thanks

Special VFR is very limited.  It's restricted to within only a few miles of an airport, and that airport needs to have at least Class E airspace to the surface.

I've monitored that being used by the local airport control tower with a local company's helicopter that has it's own helipad.  The chopper was relocating from the airport FBO (after fueling) and returning to the helipad and the clouds where pretty low.   IF I remember correctly the helo flew at less than 1,000 feet (but likely higher than 500 feet) MSL.
RM

[Stearmann4]

While I was doing some sensor development testing with Boeing last year,  I had to file IFR because the local WX was marginal to get to the target area but the WX was VMC at the target so the local approach folks let me file for an orbit using a fix-radial-distance off the nearest navaid effectively allowing me to create my own holding fix.

When the target area became VMC I just requested lower altitudes as conditions and radar coverage permitted. Once the "holding" was complete I proceeded back into IMC for a standard approach.

Pretty simple, but it require a land line call ahead of time to coordinate.

Mike-

[JeffDG]

I've monitored that being used by the local airport control tower with a local company's helicopter that has it's own helipad.  The chopper was relocating from the airport FBO (after fueling) and returning to the helipad and the clouds where pretty low.   IF I remember correctly the helo flew at less than 1,000 feet (but likely higher than 500 feet) MSL.
RM

SVFR does not absolve you of your rules with respect to minimum altitudes (1,000' AGL in congested areas/500 AGL), but it does let you operate "clear of clouds" instead of 500' below, which can be a huge difference.

Are rotorcraft restricted to the same minimum safe altitudes as airplanes?

[JeffDG]

While I was doing some sensor development testing with Boeing last year,  I had to file IFR because the local WX was marginal to get to the target area but the WX was VMC at the target so the local approach folks let me file for an orbit using a fix-radial-distance off the nearest navaid effectively allowing me to create my own holding fix.

When the target area became VMC I just requested lower altitudes as conditions and radar coverage permitted. Once the "holding" was complete I proceeded back into IMC for a standard approach.

Pretty simple, but it require a land line call ahead of time to coordinate.

Mike-

Did an IFR hold at a lat/long fix during a SAREX earlier this year while flying highbird.  I was the Observer on that flight, but I believe the pilot filed round-robin to the departure airport, via a lat/long fix and put in the remarks that we'd be holding for 3 hours there...got a "cleared as filed"

[Mark_Wheeler]

You can also file whats called a "Delay" It would look like this:

Departure Airport: KRAL
Arrival Airport: KRAL
PDZ V186 TANNR D2+15 V186 PDZ


The D2+15 means a delay of 2 hours and 15 minutes. You're allowed to stay within a certain distance of that fix (Don't remember exactly) at your assigned altitude for the time of the delay. Here is an example of how NASA does is: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NASA801/history/20111003/1900Z/KEDW/KEDW

[c172drv]

I've been on a CAP mission flight that we did this basic thing.  We were IFR our of our destination and enroute.  We additionally wanted someone watching over us so we would get to our target areas that were VFR and needed to take photos we would suspend the IFR clearance and proceed VFR keeping our code in the transponder then climb back up and check in with them and proceed to the next location.  We did this several times and had no problems other than the first time trying to get the correct verbiage from the controller that he wanted to hear which was different that previous experiences a previous military pilot on-board had used.  Worked well and I'd use it again.

I do like the previous post system of filing the delay.


John

[Flying Pig]

^ Hmm, thats interesing.  That sounds exactly like what I am doing.  Filing IFR to a particular point, then needing to orbit for a while and then go on to another.  Now, it is important to know that I am not flying around routinely trying to follow cars in IFR but I occasionally need to do static photo flights or orbit a fixed location.
Good conversations.  Where I am, my tower and approach guys are pretty good at working with me on what I need.  If I know I am going to do something weird, I call land line first and get the verbage down so when I call up on ground we already know what the other expects.  Im also really good at telling MY people, "Nope.....no flying today gents.  Do it the old fashion way."

[JeffDG]

You can also file whats called a "Delay" It would look like this:

Departure Airport: KRAL
Arrival Airport: KRAL
PDZ V186 TANNR D2+15 V186 PDZ


The D2+15 means a delay of 2 hours and 15 minutes. You're allowed to stay within a certain distance of that fix (Don't remember exactly) at your assigned altitude for the time of the delay. Here is an example of how NASA does is: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NASA801/history/20111003/1900Z/KEDW/KEDW

That's the term I was looking for, although, if I would suggest not doing such a long duration hold on an airway, as it blocks that airspace at that altitude for others.  Holding off airway, either with a radial/dme, a radial/radial fix, or a lat/long (depending on equipment) lets you get off the airway...

Although, the MORAs there really suck.

[Mark_Wheeler]

I was doing that as a quick and dirty show and tell. If say you wanted to do that with a highbird, do a Fixed radial distance off a VOR. If its a GPS Capable aircraft you can also just pick a lat long and park it right there.

Mark

[JeffDG]

I was doing that as a quick and dirty show and tell. If say you wanted to do that with a highbird, do a Fixed radial distance off a VOR. If its a GPS Capable aircraft you can also just pick a lat long and park it right there.

Mark

Or a cross radial off two VORs if you don't have DME