How long for rank

[drmustang66]

I have been a SM member of CAP for 1 year. Three months ago I applied for the rank of Capt. I hold a PhD with 20 years as a university professor. The squadron commander sent the paperwork to group 10 weeks ago. So far no rank. How long does the process take? I am also a transport pilot for the unit.

[arajca]

What is the basis for the fast promotion?

[spacecommand]

Capt requires group/wing approval.  Depending on the politics of your wing, it can be fast or it can be slow. 

Also what is your position in your unit?
(for example are you a Health Services, Aerospace Education, Legal or Finance?)

If you are a pilot, are you a CFI/CFII or ATP ?

(CAPR 35-5 outlines appointments and promotions).

Just having a PhD or 20 years as a university professor doesn't help much in CAP if you taught Native American history (an example, not saying you do/did).

For example, we have a member who is a doctor in our unit, if he served as our Medical Officer he can be professionally appointed to Captain, however, he decided he wanted to do something else in the unit (totally unrelated to medical/health services), so he's going through the same grade promotion track as other members. 

[drmustang66]

CAP Regulation 50-17 and CAP 35-5.

SECTION E -PROFESSIONAL APPOINTMENTS AND PROMOTIONS

2) Captain. A professional educator who has served as a teacher, counselor, school administrator, college or university professor (full, associate or assistant) or other faculty member for a minimum of 5 years. The professional education service requirement is reduced from 5 years to 3 years for members with an earned masters degree.

3) Major. A professional educator with an earned doctorate degree who has served as a teacher, counselor, school administrator, college or university professor (full, associate or assistant) or other faculty member, for a minimum of 5 years and has served 1 year time-in-grade as a captain may be appointed to the grade of major.

[drmustang66]

I also hold a CFI and am the Aerospace Education Officer.

[Eclipse]

How is your education and experience, specifically, going to be used in service to CAP?

Being an educator, Dr., or POTUS doesn't mean much if you aren't bringing it to the meetings.

[drmustang66]

Are we following Cap regulations or not? As AEO I should be under the following rules:

e. Aerospace Education Officers. A CAP aerospace education officer is an officer serving in an aerospace education position at any level of CAP. For the purpose of promotion under the professional appointments method the aerospace education officer must also be fully certified as a professional educator (teacher, counselor, or administrator) by the state department of education in the member's state of residence or have served as a college or university professor (full, associate or assistant) or other faculty member.

[lordmonar]

Don't feed the Troll.....you just touched one of his buttons.

10 weeks is a little long.

Have your CC or Personnel officer ping Group and find out if there is a hold up.

Having said that.

No promotion is automatic and there are some wings that have unwritten rules and other BS that you may have to wade through.

In the mean time....you have enought TIG for 2d Lt...so get your CC to do the 2a for that and have him follow up on the Capt through channels.

[Eclipse]

Are we following Cap regulations or not? As AEO I should be under the following rules:

Eligible does not mean qualified, or worthy. 

You still haven't answered the actual question.

[Ford73Diesel]

Eligible does not mean qualified, or worthy. 

You still haven't answered the actual question.

I'm pretty sure that is for his command to decide. He has met the requirements to be eligible per CAP regulations, and his CC sent his paperwork in.

[drmustang66]

Dear Eclipse
   
OK  I'll bite.  Does this answer your question?

Perfect attendance at all meetings and:

Pilot Rating   OPS-CAPPilot   24 Jul 2011   Does not Expire
SET - Skills Evaluator   OPS-Emergency_Services   30 Jul 2011   Does not Expire
TMP - Transport Mission Pilot   OPS-Emergency_Services   24 Jul 2011   Does not Expire
GES - General Emergency Services   OPS-Emergency_Services   17 Jun 2011   Does not Expire
IS100 - IS-100   OPS-Emergency_Services   03 Jun 2011   Does not Expire
IS700 - IS-700   OPS-Emergency_Services   03 Jun 2011   Does not Expire
Aircraft Ground Handling   CAP_Multimedia   31 May 2011
ORM Basic   ONLINE   05 Jun 2011
ORM Intermed.   ONLINE   05 Jun 2011
CAP Test 116 GES Questionnaire   MIMS   17 Jun 2011
CAPT 117 ES Continuing Education Exam - Part 1   MIMS   17 Jun 2011
CAPT 117 ES Continuing Education Exam - Part 2   MIMS   17 Jun 2011
CAPT 117 ES Continuing Education Exam - Part 3   MIMS   17 Jun 2011
AEPSM   ONLINE   18 Jun 2011
Senior Rating Exam: Communications   ONLINE   19 Jun 2011
Technician Rating Exam: AE   ONLINE   17 Jul 2011
Basic Instructor Course   ONLINE   30 Jul 2011
Wing Runner Test   MIMS   15 Aug 2011
      
YEAGER      18 Jun 2011

[Eclipse]

No.

I asked what you are doing to contribute to your squadron which would justify your request for advanced promotion, not what you have crammed into a couple of hours of online tests.  Further, you indicated that yo requested your advanced promotion before you did the work you list, which means
you actually requested the railroad tracks before you were qualified to do much of anything.

Everything in your list above is found in every new member's eservices screen within the first few months.  The majority are pre-requisites to actually doing anything.

Your degrees, abilities, and pilot's license don't mean much until you actually do something with them that benefits your unit's members.

I also see you have rescinded your offer of a degree based on my comparative service. 

[Thrashed]

For some reason there are people in CAP who think no one should ever promote above them or in a matter that they don't like. This guy's experience and education is equivalent to a Col or Gen in the military. He has a lot to offer and he has volunteered his time and experience to the CAP. It sounds like he deserves Capt; he has more than earned it in more than one way (teacher/AEO or pilot/CAP pilot). People like this eventually give up on CAP because of all the crap they have to go through just to contribute to the organization. He has come on this board (OK, that's his first mistake  ) and asked for information. Let's not second guess who and what he is and answer the questions as best we can without any bias one way or another.

Promotions are different in every wing. I've seen a simple promotion take six months. They can get stuck at the squadron, group, or wing level. Some wings hold promotion reviews infrequently. To answer your question, "How long does it take?" That varies, but I wouldn't worry yet. I've seen it take a long time. Hang in there and don't let this board or organization get you down. There will be times when you will want to walk away from it all. Relax, don't give up, take a break when you need it.  Thanks for your time and good luck.

[SJFedor]

And above all else, yes, 10 weeks is a little bit more than I've seen with some others (but not all). Your best bet is to address it with your unit commander and have them follow up with the next echelon.

[Eclipse]

Yes, we get people all the time who walk in the door with no experience in CAP, who request bling on day one, and then leave without ever doing anything.  That's just as detrimental to the moral of the 1Lt's busting their butts with three staff jobs as to the new guy who expects the world because
of potential.

Do, then ask, not the other way around.

In this case the question was "How Long?", with an air of entitlement and likely looking for fodder to push things locally.  Note in the OP the sole
justification is his university history.  Not "I'm flying 10 O-rides a month, and have put together a great rocket program."  Just "I have a degree, give me my tracks."  With a phone call or two he could find out exactly where the request is.   

When asked a direct question the response is a resume of baseline training and nothing on what he has actually done.  Part of the delay could well be the lack of actual CAP activity at the point the request was submitted.

[SJFedor]

Yes, we get people all the time who walk in the door with no experience in CAP, who request bling on day one, and then leave without ever doing anything.  That's just as detrimental to the moral of the 1Lt's busting their butts with three staff jobs as to the new guy who expects the world because
of potential.

Do, then ask, not the other way around.

In this case the question was "How Long?", with an air of entitlement and likely looking for fodder to push things locally.  With a phone call or two he could find out exactly where the request is.   

When asked a direct question the response is a resume of baseline training and nothing on what he has actually done.  Part of the delay could well be the lack of actual CAP activity at the point the request was submitted.

Air of entitlement? Dude, get off that horse before you hurt yourself.

All he asked was how long does it normally take? He's asking for the opinion and experiences of his peers. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Instead of being condescending with YOUR "air of entitlement", you could just choose to help the gentleman, address his question in a professional manner, and let life roll on.

[Eclipse]

Perhaps you missed the removed comment the good Dr. made that if my activity in the last 3 months equaled his list above he
would give me a degree...

[SJFedor]

Perhaps you missed the removed comment the good Dr. made that if my activity in the last 3 months equaled his list above he
would give me a degree...

Are you in his chain of command? I'd venture a guess and say no

Are you the one signing off on whether he receives this promotion? Again, probably not.


So why are you quizzing him as to his professional resume within CAP, and why he feels he deserves the promotion. Who has the false sense of entitlement here again?

[Eclipse]

He asked why it was taking so long.  I asked what he had done for CAP to deserve the promotion.

He quoted regs as his answer. 

He owes me nothing, but if quoting regs is the only thing he's got, then odds are that's why it is sitting with no response.

From his own posts he says for 8 some months of his first year he attended meetings, then in May he decided to do some online tests and a Form 5.
Anything else?

I am also not quizzing him on his resume.  I asked what he had done for CAP to deserve the advanced promotion.

[SJFedor]

He asked why it was taking so long.  I asked what he had done for CAP to deserve the promotion.

Exactly. Instead of answering the man's question and moving on, you chose to engage him in your typical fashion and attempt to bring him down.

What he's done for CAP? In a year, it's hard to do much of anything for CAP with all the minutia required. However, what he brings to the table as a benefit to CAP is quite great. He's invested a significant portion of his life to his education, and should receive something for that.

Granted, i'm sure you worked very hard on your AFIADL 13, SLS, CLC, and the other crackerjack box courses to earn your grade, but I'm willing to bet he's invested just a little bit more of himself into his education than you have.

It's honestly people like you that choose to bring this organization down by actively being hostile and brash to anyone who doesn't fit your little cookie cutter ideals. And that irritates me.

[JC004]

Alright, alright.  Everybody knock it off.

[MSG Mac]

Alright, alright.  Everybody knock it off.

DITTO

[Майор Хаткевич]

Folks, there are two camps (well, more, but lets focus on two).

First One: You match the reg, you get it.
Second One: Do something, match it, get it.
The third believes that we shouldn't have ANY advanced promotions.

The first one often leads to the "fly clubs". A lot of CFIs. A lot of Captains. Not a lot of anything else.

The second one typically gets the scorn of the first, because they have the gall to actually apply the "May" instead of making it a "will".

From the OP, it seemed that transport pilot was an after thought after "PhD prof for 20 years". Personally, being a college student, I don't put much credence in PhD Professors. Not all are bad, but most seem to think being a professor is all that is needed to teach. I don't even know WHY that's something that gives advanced grade in CAP. CFI, with a From 5 in hand and flying for CAP I can understand. An "educator"? not so much.

And honestly, throwing up a list of basic CAP online testing doesn't help either. I don't think this is a fight for Eclipse, because it won't affect anything, but I also tend to agree with his viewpoint on this.  arajca's question was on point. Citing the reg of what CAN be done wasn't the answer.

[brenaud]

Have your CC or Personnel officer ping Group and find out if there is a hold up.

...

In the mean time....you have enought TIG for 2d Lt...so get your CC to do the 2a for that and have him follow up on the Capt through channels.

Ditto, although I'd suggest using the online promotion module as a duty performance for 2d Lt.
Remember that the approval authority for professional appointment promotions is Wing/CC, so if you have groups there are two levels it must go through.  But check with your chain of command.  If one echelon has questions/wants more documentation then hopefully that will get that information communicated back to the squadron so you can reply.  If they want the info and don't realize you haven't been asked, they'll never get it & the F2 will just collect dust.

[Camas]

Well, let's see now, you've been a SM for a year and now you're applying for captain based on being an AE officer with the educational requirement to support that or as a CFI. I think we can agree that you're eligible for a promotion to captain and not entitled to it. OK - we've got that out of the way.

Now, you've hung on as a SM for a year. You've elected to put in for captain; you've done twice the time as a SM as a SM seeking a promotion to 2d Lt under the duty promotion method. Moreover, your commander has forwarded your application on up the chain of command. He/she is obviously pleased with your performance during the past year and considers your contributions to the success of your unit as significant or he/she would not have recommended you. So, based on that, it sounds like you've earned the promotion. Let's hope the powers-to-be concur with your commander's recommendation. Sounds like you've more than earned it.

For whatever it's worth, I'm the chairperson of my wing's awards and promotion board.

[flyboy53]

Although I commend you for your academic and flying achievements, remember that promotions of this nature are often delayed as they go through the chain of command and may be boarded to determine merit.

That may take a while and can also be denied for cause or merit so brace yourself.

At that grade, you are also going to be compared to other officers of the same rank in your wing.

I'm an AEO. My academic background (I am post masters) had no bearing on any promotion I ever achieved and I'm as far as I'll ever get without being elected to something.  I guess I actually prefer it that way.

I also had a NSC classmate (lieutenant colonel type) a few years back who is a professor of aeronautics, accomplished pilot, numerous other professional achievements, but also a veteran CAP officer and vice wing commander. As I remember, he preferred it that way, too.

[ironputts]

I usually dont weigh in on issues like this. Rank and uniforms seem to be a favorite topic for most CAPTALKERS. I must admit I enjoy seeing everyones perspective and usually agree on one side or the other. This thread has the usual opinions with a little spice thrown in. Hopefully drmustang66 will understand  the years of experience being shown here. I have 20 years of CAP and was promoted just last year to Lt Col. My background when I joined CAP was a backelors degree, 4 years active duty enlisted and just began Warrant Officer School. I was a drill instructor in the Army, Jump School, Army Ranger, and other courses suitable for a ground pounder. After joining CAP I knew I would like to try flying and flew Army Reserve medevac for many years.

I joined CAP for only one reason and that was to help cadets. I saw what the program did and knew that was what I was trained to do. I learned quickly I had to adapt my strict military experience to a disciplined mentoring approach which I hope brought a good experience to the young people over the years. So I learned anything over my many years with CAP is to adapt and take breaks once in awhile.

So to get to this thread I started earnestly when I joined CAP to be promoted as there was no professional advancement in CAP in 1990. I stopped at Captain and enjoyed that rank for 10 years. I can tell you many look at your rank and judge what you can do or not. I agree with everyone here though the slow and methodical advancement is preferred. You will find many will appreciate your background and others will not care. They want to see your CAP brackground and experience. through my 20 years I have met many types of volunteers and believe the ones who want to stay want to give rather than receive. Okay not all I agree! Be patient and all we come in time!

[BillB]

I've seen people with PhD's made Communications Officers when they joined. But the fact is theregulation says a PhD is eligible for Captain. Where does it say he/she has to be AE OfficerA member with a PhD has value to a Squadron even if they are not in their field in CAP.

[Thrashed]

It's more than just education for promotion. Anyone can get a college degree. We are talking about special appointment promotions based on not just education, but the type of education and experience. Certain people have skills that directly relate to CAP and its missions. Pilots, mechanics, clergy, medical doctors/nurses, legal personnel, educators, and finance people. A certain combination of education and experience in any of these areas qualifies you for a special appointment to a certain grade. These people have earned it; the real way, the hard way. Of course, they should be using that education and experience for CAP and one or more of its missions. No one said Dr mustang should get Captain because he has a PhD. He should get Capt because of his PhD, experience as an educator, and/or as a pilot. He is an active CAP pilot and AEO. He has earned Captain twice in CAP. To move up from Capt, he still has to do all the professional development stuff everyone else has to from level one up. I don't see the big deal. It won't cost CAP anything since 2d Lt pay is the same as Captain pay. 

[Thrashed]

d. Aerospace Education Officers. Upon successful completion of Level I, the unit commander may initiate a CAPF 2 on qualified aerospace education officers, recommending appointment to an appropriate grade, as outlined below:
(1) First Lieutenant. A professional educator who is a graduate of a recognized college or university and is certified by the state department of education or a university professor (full, associate, or assistant) or other faculty member.
(2) Captain. A professional educator who has served as a teacher, counselor, school administrator, college or university professor (full, associate, or assistant) or other faculty member for a minimum of 5 years. The professional education service requirement is reduced from 5 years to 3 years for members with an earned master's degree.
(3) Major. A professional educator with an earned doctorate degree who has served as a teacher, counselor, school administrator, college or university professor (full, associate, or assistant) or other faculty member, for a minimum of 5 years and has served 1 year time-in-grade as a captain may be appointed to the grade of major.
e. Legal Officers. Upon successful completion

[Thrashed]

I've seen people with PhD's made Communications Officers when they joined. But the fact is theregulation says a PhD is eligible for Captain. Where does it say he/she has to be AE OfficerA member with a PhD has value to a Squadron even if they are not in their field in CAP.

No where in 35-5 do you get promoted based on education alone. You must have the right combination of educaiton and position for a professional appointment. To be promoted as an educator you must have the education and experience and be an AEO.

You can be a high school drop out and be a FAA A&P mechanic with inspector and be promoted to Captain. 

[Eclipse]

The "right combination" is meaningless unless you apply it to CAP.

"Earned it?"  Everything he "earned" is on his wall and hopefully his paycheck.  None of it is related to CAP until it is.

[Thrashed]

The "right combination" is meaningless unless you apply it to CAP.

"Earned it?"  Everything he "earned" is on his wall and hopefully his paycheck.  None of it is related to CAP until it is.

It's been said numerous times that he is a CAP pilot and AEO. So it applies to and is related to CAP. What part of that do you not understand?

[Eclipse]

The "right combination" is meaningless unless you apply it to CAP.

"Earned it?"  Everything he "earned" is on his wall and hopefully his paycheck.  None of it is related to CAP until it is.

It's been said numerous times that he is a CAP pilot and AEO. So it applies to and is related to CAP. What part of that do you not understand?

A wet Form 5 and being posted as AEO doesn't mean he's actually done anything, nor does it warrant Capt.  That's 1st Lt. at best.
The sole claim to railroad tracks is the advanced degrees, which are meaningless unless they are put to use for his squadron.

[Thom]

The "right combination" is meaningless unless you apply it to CAP.

"Earned it?"  Everything he "earned" is on his wall and hopefully his paycheck.  None of it is related to CAP until it is.

It's been said numerous times that he is a CAP pilot and AEO. So it applies to and is related to CAP. What part of that do you not understand?

A wet Form 5 and being posted as AEO doesn't mean he's actually done anything, nor does it warrant Capt.  That's 1st Lt. at best.
The sole claim to railroad tracks is the advanced degrees, which are meaningless unless they are put to use for his squadron.

The determination of which is up to his Commander, and higher chain of command, not you, or me.


Thom

[Eclipse]

The determination of which is up to his Commander, and higher chain of command, not you, or me.

Of course. 

[JeffDG]

The determination of which is up to his Commander, and higher chain of command, not you, or me.

Of course.

Yet you consistently show disrespect to his CC by demanding that the OP justify his contribution to you.  The Squadron Commander signed off on it, absent some evidence that the CC is negligent, that's sufficient evidence for me that the individual is appropriately contributing the skills he has earned.

[Eclipse]

Disrespect and demand?  He doesn't have to justify anything to me.  He didn't even need to respond to my question, but once he
did, I think it is fair to discuss what he provided.  Isn't that the point of this?  To help educate and inform people how CAP works and
why things may or may not always be clear or "all on the page" in the regs?

Given the right chain of circumstance, he could be a Colonel tomorrow, or he might never get past SMWOG, that's how this goes.  The baseline
minimums are what are found in the regs, and we have seen increasing pressure and rhetoric to raise the expectations beyond the minimums.

People regularly take issue with pilots who walk in with a CFI and want to be Captains on Day 0, but never contribute anything beyond their
own personal flying.  How is this different?  We only have his responses to go by, which provide nothing about his contributions to CAP, only
a very recent list of baseline activity.

This has nothing to do with the Unit CC, who has never been part of the discussion.  Don't make this something it isn't.

[jeders]

The determination of which is up to his Commander, and higher chain of command, not you, or me.

Of course.

Yet you consistently show disrespect to his CC by demanding that the OP justify his contribution to you.  The Squadron Commander signed off on it, absent some evidence that the CC is negligent, that's sufficient evidence for me that the individual is appropriately contributing the skills he has earned.

Because this is CAPTalk, and these are the things we argue fight debate about.

If I were in this fellows chain of command, I would probably be asking the same questions as Eclipse, and if I got the same answers that were given here, I wouldn't be satisfied. I don't think that Eclipse is really attacking him, just trying to test the validity so that if the same questions come down from his chain of command, he'll have good answers, not a print out of some online tests.

That said, I also recognize that these professional appointments are there to try and get more people into CAP. So if he really is putting his skills to positive use at the unit level, I'd have no problem approving, and hopefully that's how things will turn out. But for now, hopefully we won't have scared away a newer member from what is a wonderful resource.

[DogCollar]

It's important to remember that the regs state that the advanced grade promotion can only be used once and 99.9% of the time it is to be used on the initial promotion from SMWOG.  Every promotion after that the member was meet all requirements, including backfilling requirements to meet the initial grade.

My initial appointment was to Capt. as I came in to be a Chaplain and I have a Master of Divinity.  I could have stayed a Capt. by doing absolutely nothing except what was required as a unit chaplain.  However, in order to promote to Major I had to complete all professonal development requirements for Capt and Major and be doing my job while waiting time in grade.

[flyboy53]

Also, no where in the initial entry does it say what is going on up the chain of command.

Just because the regs allow for it, doesn't mean that it won't face extra scrutiny up the chain of command or delays as it goes through the boarding process.

Not that I want to slight the guy or insult him in any way, but those special credentials don't mean expedited handling of his Form 2.

[ßτε]

It's important to remember that the regs state that the advanced grade promotion can only be used once and 99.9% of the time it is to be used on the initial promotion from SMWOG.  Every promotion after that the member was meet all requirements, including backfilling requirements to meet the initial grade.

The regulation says no such thing.

[CAP_truth]

Lets get the regulation correct.
CAPR 35-5 dated 16 March 2010:  Section E

5-3. Initial Appointment. Upon completion of Level I, unit commanders may recommend health service personnel, legal officers, professional educators serving as aerospace education officers and financial professionals serving as finance officers for an appropriate grade commensurate with their CAP position (see figure 7) and professional qualifications as outlined below. Members applying and qualifying for the CAP chaplaincy will be appointed to the appropriate grade upon acceptance by National Headquarters. NOTE: Members in these categories who are members of the Armed Forces are also eligible for consideration to higher grades equivalent to their Armed Forces grade under the provision of paragraph 3-4 of this regulation. However, in no case will the grade exceed lieutenant colonel

d. Aerospace Education Officers. Upon successful completion of Level I, the unit commander may initiate a CAPF 2 on qualified aerospace education officers, recommending appointment to an appropriate grade, as outlined below:

(2) Captain. A professional educator who has served as a teacher, counselor, school administrator, college or university professor (full, associate, or assistant) or other faculty member for a minimum of 5 years. The professional education service requirement is reduced from 5 years to 3 years for members with an earned master's degree.
(3) Major. A professional educator with an earned doctorate degree who has served as a teacher, counselor, school administrator, college or university professor (full, associate, or assistant) or other faculty member, for a minimum of 5 years and has served 1 year time-in-grade as a captain may be appointed to the grade of major.

[lordmonar]

Yes....we get it.

No promotion is automatic.

Done and Done.

What is getting up my craw is that a lot of people started attacking the OP on why he felt he deserved advanced promotion, what had he done for CAP, what he intends to do for CAP, etc.

The OP wanted to know if 10 weeks was a long time for promotion and what he should do about it.

It is okay for us to discuss the pros and cons of advanced promotion, the additional requirments some wings put out for them, etc.......but no one......NO ONE......should be getting on to this guy for asking for one.

Geeze......

To restate my orignial reply.  10 weeks is a long time.  Follow up and see what the issue it.  It may simply be waiting for a board to convien, it may be stuck in limbo because some people don't like advanced promotions, it may jammed up waiting for more documentation (say someone wants to see your transcripts or diploma (do they give diplomas for Phd's).

Either way.....Ignore the haters.......if you meet the requirments and your commander signed the 2A.....that's all that is needed.....thanks for giving your time and expertise to CAP.

[fyrfitrmedic]

 There's a big difference between education and pontificating, a difference that is woefully lost on some of CapTalk's more prolific posters.

[AirDX]

A wet Form 5 and being posted as AEO doesn't mean he's actually done anything, nor does it warrant Capt.  That's 1st Lt. at best.
The sole claim to railroad tracks is the advanced degrees, which are meaningless unless they are put to use for his squadron.

Apparently his commander thinks he is deserving of the rank.  All other opinions are hot air.  And it's getting toasty in here.

[JeffDG]

It's important to remember that the regs state that the advanced grade promotion can only be used once and 99.9% of the time it is to be used on the initial promotion from SMWOG.  Every promotion after that the member was meet all requirements, including backfilling requirements to meet the initial grade.

Where exactly do the regs state that?

If I come in as a private pilot, I can receive a promotion to 2d Lt.  If 2 months later, I finish my Instrument Rating, I'm eligible for another "mission skill" promotion to 1st Lt.  If I rapidly get my Commercial and CFIs after that, I can go back again and get another bump to Capt.

In fact the specific instance stated here permits two promotions:  1 to Capt, then a year later to Maj.

[DogCollar]

It's important to remember that the regs state that the advanced grade promotion can only be used once and 99.9% of the time it is to be used on the initial promotion from SMWOG.  Every promotion after that the member was meet all requirements, including backfilling requirements to meet the initial grade.

Where exactly do the regs state that?

If I come in as a private pilot, I can receive a promotion to 2d Lt.  If 2 months later, I finish my Instrument Rating, I'm eligible for another "mission skill" promotion to 1st Lt.  If I rapidly get my Commercial and CFIs after that, I can go back again and get another bump to Capt.

In fact the specific instance stated here permits two promotions:  1 to Capt, then a year later to Maj.

Hmmmmmm...you're correct and I am wrong.  It appears that only Chaplains are required to adhere to the professional development standards after initial appointment.  All other professional appointments are "exempt."

As to the pilot track you outline, that's completely different.  It's not a part of the professional appointment section of the regs, but is a part of the mission related skills appointment. 

[JeffDG]

It's important to remember that the regs state that the advanced grade promotion can only be used once and 99.9% of the time it is to be used on the initial promotion from SMWOG.  Every promotion after that the member was meet all requirements, including backfilling requirements to meet the initial grade.

Where exactly do the regs state that?

If I come in as a private pilot, I can receive a promotion to 2d Lt.  If 2 months later, I finish my Instrument Rating, I'm eligible for another "mission skill" promotion to 1st Lt.  If I rapidly get my Commercial and CFIs after that, I can go back again and get another bump to Capt.

In fact the specific instance stated here permits two promotions:  1 to Capt, then a year later to Maj.

Hmmmmmm...you're correct and I am wrong.  It appears that only Chaplains are required to adhere to the professional development standards after initial appointment.  All other professional appointments are "exempt."

As to the pilot track you outline, that's completely different.  It's not a part of the professional appointment section of the regs, but is a part of the mission related skills appointment.

OK

For a professional one, let's say a lawyer joins with 8 years of service as an attorney.  He gets a bump to Capt right away (subject to the usual caveats).  Then two years later, he becomes eligible for Maj based on reaching 10 years of service.  Note, this promotion is not dependent on him meeting PD requirements, but is based on his professional (non-CAP) experience.

If that same lawyer wants to make Lt. Col., however, he'll have to work his way through the same PD requirements as everyone else (Level IV).  That said, he does not need to meet the TIG requirements for 2d Lt-Capt, but does need to meet the TIG requirement as a Major for promotion to Lt Col.

5-4a:  After initial appointment, professional personnel may be eligible for future promotions by satisfying the requirements outlined in paragraph 2-1

[drmustang66]

I wish to thank everyone for taking the time to respond to my question. As a rather new CAP member I learned a valuable lesson from this discussion board-never join a discussion board of this type.

I did not expect this level of interest in my original question and I assure everyone that some of the comments will not deter me from my goals.

My goals are simple. I joined CAP to work hard for the organization and the cadets. That was the main reason for receiving certification for O-Flights and Aerospace Education. The commander of the squadron recommended me for the rank of caption based on my one year performance, CAP regulations and sent the necessary paperwork to group. All I wanted to know was "how long."

If some of the posters in this discussion board are in positions of authority and apply their concepts to my application for caption my question may go from "how long" to "how many decades will it take."

One last thought. My degree in Psychology was not given to me but earned. The undergrad and masters work was paid by the GI bill and I did serve in a combat zone.  A degree of this type  takes 7 or more years of hard study. I did not expect the rank of captain to be given to me but also earned.

Best regards to all.

[Eclipse]

It's important to remember that the regs state that the advanced grade promotion can only be used once and 99.9% of the time it is to be used on the initial promotion from SMWOG.  Every promotion after that the member was meet all requirements, including backfilling requirements to meet the initial grade.

Where exactly do the regs state that?

If I come in as a private pilot, I can receive a promotion to 2d Lt.  If 2 months later, I finish my Instrument Rating, I'm eligible for another "mission skill" promotion to 1st Lt.  If I rapidly get my Commercial and CFIs after that, I can go back again and get another bump to Capt.

In fact the specific instance stated here permits two promotions:  1 to Capt, then a year later to Maj.

Hmmmmmm...you're correct and I am wrong.  It appears that only Chaplains are required to adhere to the professional development standards after initial appointment.  All other professional appointments are "exempt."

As to the pilot track you outline, that's completely different.  It's not a part of the professional appointment section of the regs, but is a part of the mission related skills appointment.

OK

For a professional one, let's say a lawyer joins with 8 years of service as an attorney.  He gets a bump to Capt right away (subject to the usual caveats).  Then two years later, he becomes eligible for Maj based on reaching 10 years of service.  Note, this promotion is not dependent on him meeting PD requirements, but is based on his professional (non-CAP) experience.

If that same lawyer wants to make Lt. Col., however, he'll have to work his way through the same PD requirements as everyone else (Level IV).  That said, he does not need to meet the TIG requirements for 2d Lt-Capt, but does need to meet the TIG requirement as a Major for promotion to Lt Col.

5-4a:  After initial appointment, professional personnel may be eligible for future promotions by satisfying the requirements outlined in paragraph 2-1

Lawyers probably just need to be left off these conversations since they are "special" in every way - their advanced promotions go direct to NHQ and never stop on the way up.

Edit: No longer the case if it ever was. Can't substantiate this back two revs of 35-5, though I processed one that way.

[Eclipse]

If some of the posters in this discussion board are in positions of authority and apply their concepts to my application for caption my question may go from "how long" to "how many decades will it take."

It does not takes "decades", it simply takes a record of contributions to the program.

One last thought. My degree in Psychology was not given to me but earned. The undergrad and masters work was paid by the GI bill and I did serve in a combat zone.  A degree of this type  takes 7 or more years of hard study. I did not expect the rank of captain to be given to me but also earned.

No one said it was, and if you were in the military you may well qualify for advanced CAP grade based on whatever your highest military grade was.

But, as these things usually go, more detail sheds more light.

How does a degree in psychology relate to being an AEO?

[JeffDG]

How does a degree in psychology relate to being an AEO?

Did you miss the little bit about him being a professor for 10 years?

[jeders]

How does a degree in psychology relate to being an AEO?

Did you miss the little bit about him being a professor for 10 years?

On a side note and completely unrelated to drmustang, if a professor of underwater basket weaving comes in and tries to teach an AE class, odds are he'll fall flat on his face. An A&P would be a better choice for an AEO based on technical knowledge and would have far less education. So, how does someone with a degree in, and I'm assuming professor of, psychology work effectively as an AEO? Not saying it's impossible, just saying that the deck is severely stacked against them.

[AirDX]

How does a degree in psychology relate to being an AEO?

Eclipse do you know anything about education and cognitive studies?  I didn't think so, from that comment.

[AirDX]

So, how does someone with a degree in, and I'm assuming professor of, psychology work effectively as an AEO? Not saying it's impossible, just saying that the deck is severely stacked against them.

The guys a CAP pilot, as well as a CFI and earned a PhD in Psychology.  I'd say he verges on the ideal AEO.

[jeders]

So, how does someone with a degree in, and I'm assuming professor of, psychology work effectively as an AEO? Not saying it's impossible, just saying that the deck is severely stacked against them.

The guys a CAP pilot, as well as a CFI and earned a PhD in Psychology.  I'd say he verges on the ideal AEO.

As I said before you chopped off the first part of my post, not related at all to drmustang. It was a general question of how can person x with a degree in psychology be expected to be an effective AEO based solely on his PhD.

[Eclipse]

How does a degree in psychology relate to being an AEO?

Did you miss the little bit about him being a professor for 10 years?

Nope.  See A2's comment.

How does a degree in psychology relate to being an AEO?

Eclipse do you know anything about education and cognitive studies?  I didn't think so, from that comment.

You're gonna pull a muscle reaching that hard.

It's funny, everyone here keeps giving me grief for asking the question, yet the question has yet to be answered by the one person who can answer it.
We have his resume, but not a single line that answers the question.

He doesn't owe me an answer, he's at least minimally eligible for the promotion.  We all know that.  None of has any say in this, but for those scoring at home, this is a discussion board. 

Those of you who expect to raise the bar and change things need to look at these things and understand there would be a lot more of these types of conversations in that universe.

I have personally delayed or denied advanced promotions to Dr's, former military, pilots, lawyers, and others.  So have the echelons above me in my wing and region.  It's fairly common, actually.  The question?  What has he done for CAP to warrant this? 

In all of my cases, the response from the member was that they respected the organization more for not simply handing them a prize for joining, and that the grade will mean more once they have earned it in a CAP context.

Fly the o-rides, teach the classes, perform a staff function with some sort of objective success, and these things fly through like the wind.

[titanII]

I wish to thank everyone for taking the time to respond to my question. As a rather new CAP member I learned a valuable lesson from this discussion board-never join a discussion board of this type.

I did not expect this level of interest in my original question and I assure everyone that some of the comments will not deter me from my goals.

My goals are simple. I joined CAP to work hard for the organization and the cadets. That was the main reason for receiving certification for O-Flights and Aerospace Education. The commander of the squadron recommended me for the rank of caption based on my one year performance, CAP regulations and sent the necessary paperwork to group. All I wanted to know was "how long."

If some of the posters in this discussion board are in positions of authority and apply their concepts to my application for caption my question may go from "how long" to "how many decades will it take."

One last thought. My degree in Psychology was not given to me but earned. The undergrad and masters work was paid by the GI bill and I did serve in a combat zone.  A degree of this type  takes 7 or more years of hard study. I did not expect the rank of captain to be given to me but also earned.

Best regards to all.

:clap: Well handled, Sir.

[flyboy53]

I wish to thank everyone for taking the time to respond to my question. As a rather new CAP member I learned a valuable lesson from this discussion board-never join a discussion board of this type.

I did not expect this level of interest in my original question and I assure everyone that some of the comments will not deter me from my goals.

My goals are simple. I joined CAP to work hard for the organization and the cadets. That was the main reason for receiving certification for O-Flights and Aerospace Education. The commander of the squadron recommended me for the rank of caption based on my one year performance, CAP regulations and sent the necessary paperwork to group. All I wanted to know was “how long.”

If some of the posters in this discussion board are in positions of authority and apply their concepts to my application for caption my question may go from “how long” to “how many decades will it take.”

One last thought. My degree in Psychology was not given to me but earned. The undergrad and masters work was paid by the GI bill and I did serve in a combat zone.  A degree of this type  takes 7 or more years of hard study. I did not expect the rank of captain to be given to me but also earned.

Best regards to all.

:clap: Well handled, Sir.

And if I might add something. The real lesson here is the exposed flaw in the system that is best corrected by having the NHQ OPR, in this case AE, take the responsibility determining special promotions. There is always a disconnect between the original intent of such a promotion and how it is perceived or demonstrated by those in the field.

My current wing implemented a non-regulation requirement that special promotions be accompanied by a cover letter with goals and a resume. Talk about something that undermines the intent of the regulation.

Regardless of all the ribbons and awards,  the most important thing for everyone to remember is that a promotion or special appointment to a higher rank is about the only concrete way that you recognize a person's achievemnt/service/special qualifications is by advancing them in the grade commenserate with their qualifications/training and experience. Without that, I'll bet even money that all those membership gains that everyone was bragging about a few months ago, will certainly evaporate into thin air.

[ßτε]

Lawyers probably just need to be left off these conversations since they are "special" in every way - their advanced promotions go direct to NHQ and never stop on the way up.

That statement is just not true. Promotions for legal officers go through the same channels as all other professional promotions, except Chaplain. (SQ-->GP-->WG)

[Eclipse]

Lawyers probably just need to be left off these conversations since they are "special" in every way - their advanced promotions go direct to NHQ and never stop on the way up.

That statement is just not true. Promotions for legal officers go through the same channels as all other professional promotions, except Chaplain. (SQ-->GP-->WG)

35-5 agrees with you, so this must be a change, though it is not grayed as such.
When I promoted my unit's Legal Officer to Major, the 2 went direct to national, as per procedure, which at the time wrankled feathers.  If I have time I'll find the old reg and text.

Lawyers probably just need to be left off these conversations since they are "special" in every way - their advanced promotions go direct to NHQ and never stop on the way up.

Edit: No longer the case if it ever was. Can't substantiate this back two revs of 35-5, though I processed one that way. They are exempt from all PD, but have to go to the Legal College for Lt. Col.

[SarDragon]

You'll need to go back to a paper pub.

From CAPR 35-5:
1 Dec 2002 (Supersedes CAPR 35-5, 4 November 2001)
26. Promotions.
a. After initial appointment, professional personnel may be eligible for future promotions by satisfying the requirements outlined in paragraph 11, except:
1) Health service personnel and legal officers are exempt from senior member training requirements after Level I and CPPT. Legal officers, however, must complete the National Legal Officers' College prior to promotion to the grade of lieutenant colonel.

6 May 2002
No change for legal officers

21 Aug 2004
No change for legal officers

21 Aug 2008
No change for legal officers
**********************************************

1 Dec 2002
34. Promotion/Demotion Procedures.
a. Recommendations for promotion or demotion will be initiated by the senior member's immediate superior on a CAPF 2 and will be forwarded through channels to the appropriate commander having final approving authority. Commanders will personally sign the CAPFs 2; this authority may not be delegated to a staff officer.
b. When the final approving authority indicates his or her approval of the promotion demotion by signing the CAPF 2, the form then becomes the promotion or demotion order. The approved CAPF 2 will be returned through channels to the senior member concerned. The member's unit personnel records will be annotated to show his or her new grade. Since FO promotions are approved at the local levels, these grades are not recorded by National Headquarters and are not reflected on the membership card.
c. CAPFs 2 will be submitted to the approving authority in the number of copies he or she directs.

No changes in this paragraph in subsequent editions.

Emphasis mine.

[edit]
FWIW, the 15 May 1984 edition has the same para a. text.

[Eclipse]

It may have just been my failed recollection of the lack of PD requirement, but I know we sent it direct to NHQ, and it was signed by them and approved.

[keystone102]

I remember in the 70's that the approving authority sent the form 2 to Natl Hq. At Maxwell they would stamp the form 2 and create a ID card with the new rank.

[JC004]

drmustang66:
You touched a nerve that exists in CAP, of which you are probably not deeply familiar because you are new at this.  In general, a lot of people have bad experiences with people coming into CAP, getting a pretty automatic promotion to a high grade while other people bust their butts while they wait.  Part of that bad experience is that it seems many of these people suck at being officers and/or know nothing about CAP. 

One of the things we were working on for the new command was looking at this sensitive issue and at least looking at proposing, say, a requirement that everyone getting a promotion to Capt or above take CAP Officer Basic Course.  This issue comes up on CAPTalk often and it was submitted for our consideration for what would have been the new National Commander by a very high-ranking individual.  So I'm saying that this not only hits a nerve locally but goes ALL THE WAY UP as an issue.  It is a big deal to people.  People see a Major walking around CLUELESS.  People on CAPTalk care about this, your average member cares about this, colonels care about this, and generals care about this.

EVERYONE ELSE:
BE NICE.  This is starting to be a problem on CAPTalk and we may need to address this from the moderator level of things.  When we get a new member here, try to take a breath.  THIS GOES FOR EVERYBODY and is a GENERAL statement.  Calm the heck down. 

For example, we are looking at a guy who comes here and it appears is reading the regulation as if "this is what you have to do to be a a Captain," and seems to feel like other requirements are being added against the regulation and he isn't even being TOLD what's going on.

Someone without CAP or military experience is not likely to see immediately the perspective of how promotions are done (not being automatic), sees the requirement as met, whatever. 

TRY TO UNDERSTAND, GET INFORMATION ON THEIR PERSPECTIVE, AND GUIDE THEM TO UNDERSTANDING.  Be freaking nice.  We have enough RETENTION PROBLEMS IN CAP and since it appears that these issues aren't going to be addressed nationally with some seriousness anytime soon, why don't we try giving a NICE place for people to come to on CAPTalk?

[lordmonar]

How does a degree in psychology relate to being an AEO?

Did you miss the little bit about him being a professor for 10 years?

On a side note and completely unrelated to drmustang, if a professor of underwater basket weaving comes in and tries to teach an AE class, odds are he'll fall flat on his face. An A&P would be a better choice for an AEO based on technical knowledge and would have far less education. So, how does someone with a degree in, and I'm assuming professor of, psychology work effectively as an AEO? Not saying it's impossible, just saying that the deck is severely stacked against them.

Well there are degree and and there are degrees.

A professor is a professional educator.  As such he is trained in teaching.....he may specialise in underwater basket weaving.

The world's greatest A&P mechanic may be the worlds worst instructor. 

So I would say that you are flat out wrong on your assessment. 

I have seem many more experts in their fields who were complete hacks when it came to passing on that knowledge......but I have seen great teachers with only a working knowledge of their subject matter excell at passing on that information.