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Author Topic: Drill Screw Ups  (Read 7316 times)
chickenjoe
Recruit

Posts: 38

« on: February 24, 2011, 12:46:55 AM »

Ok everyone at some time epicly screwed up in drill so now is your chance to tell everyone. I will start it off

When right face was called I would turn left every time
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kmbarnes1
Recruit

Posts: 31
Unit: MER-SC-056

Coastal Charleston Composite Squadron (MER-SC-056)
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2011, 02:02:31 AM »

We play a game called "KnockOut" at my squadron. If you mess up, you're out. Last one standing wins.
My CC or his First Sgt usually call out the commands. The two ways I always knock cadets out:
1. Shout any command when I have not called the flight to my command.
2. Shout "Order Arms" when cadets are at attention.

We do this every other week, I always get cadets out this way. You would think they would learn after I've been doing it for > 6mths.
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2011, 01:24:03 PM »

Quote from: kmbarnes1
1. Shout any command when I have not called the flight to my command.

What is this?  I just looked through the entire D&C manual, all 1250 instances of the word "command" found in it and didn't see anything about calling "By My Command" to change who is in charge of the flight.

There is this:

Quote from: AFI 36-2203 2.6
2.6. Mass Commands:

2.6.1. Mass commands help develop confidence, self-reliance, assertiveness, and enthusiasm by making
the individual recall, give, and execute the proper commands. Mass commands are usually confined to
simple movements with short preparatory commands and commands of execution executed
simultaneously by all elements of a unit.

2.6.2. Each person is required to give commands in unison with others as if that person alone were
giving commands to the entire element. The volume of the combined voices encourages every person to
perform the movement with snap and precision.

2.6.3. When the instructor wants to conduct drill by mass commands, the command is  AT YOUR
COMMAND.
For each exercise and cadence drill, the instructor announces the movement to be
executed and commands the element  COMMAND. Personnel then give the commands and execute
them in unison.

2.6.4. The following are examples of mass commands:

Instructor: AT YOUR COMMAND, Call the Flight to Attention, COMMAND.
Mass: Flight, ATTENTION.
Instructor:Have the Flight Stand at Parade Rest, COMMAND.
Mass: Parade, REST.
Instructor:March the Flight Forward, COMMAND.
Mass: Forward, MARCH.
Instructor:Halt the Flight, COMMAND.
Mass: Flight, HALT.
2.6.5. When desiring to end mass commands, the instructor commands AT MY COMMAND.
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If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill
HGjunkie
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Posts: 1,620

« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2011, 07:55:43 PM »


1. Shout any command when I have not called the flight to my command.
 

It doesn't exist. Drill myth. Vapor-command. I used to do that, then found out it was out of regs.

http://www.cadetstuff.org/archives/000031.html#000031
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Hill CAP
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« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2011, 10:13:58 AM »


1. Shout any command when I have not called the flight to my command.
 

It doesn't exist. Drill myth. Vapor-command. I used to do that, then found out it was out of regs.

http://www.cadetstuff.org/archives/000031.html#000031

While this is a myth it is commonly used within Middle East Region. Never said it was correct just being from MER I have seen this used a lot.
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Justin T. Adkinson
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2011, 05:01:17 PM »

Which just means it needs to be stamped out.
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Ed Bos
Seasoned Member

Posts: 438
Unit: PCR-OR-001

« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2011, 06:27:30 PM »

Why shouldn't it be added to the drill manual? It's commonly used (I recall instructors at Basic Training using this) and it serves a purpose.

What's stopping CAP from add this common and useful "command" to our rulebook?
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EDWARD A. BOS, Lt Col, CAP
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davidsinn
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« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2011, 06:43:20 PM »

Why shouldn't it be added to the drill manual? It's commonly used (I recall instructors at Basic Training using this) and it serves a purpose.

What's stopping CAP from add this common and useful "command" to our rulebook?

Because we use the AF manual as is with no changes. You should not be handing command of a flight back and forth. It just screws with the airmen in flight.
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David Sinn
Ed Bos
Seasoned Member

Posts: 438
Unit: PCR-OR-001

« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2011, 08:09:03 PM »


Because we use the AF manual as is with no changes. You should not be handing command of a flight back and forth. It just screws with the airmen in flight.

I understand and agree that we use the AFM primarily, however I respectfully submit that we do have our own internal guidance.

From CAPR 52-4, National Cadet Competition:

"3-4. STANDARD DRILL.
a.   Only drill movements contained in the CAP Drill and Ceremonies Manual will be used for Standard Drill." (emphasis mine)

And as another discussion point... the "By My Command" announcement is neither a preparatory command, nor a command of execution, but rather an announcement to the formation. It's to declare to the formation who the boss is at that time, and to inform the formation if the boss changes.

Additional thoughts?
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EDWARD A. BOS, Lt Col, CAP
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« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2011, 08:22:28 PM »

[EDIT: NVM, I just went back and re-read the thread and my comment was completely superfluous.. -NIN]
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 08:26:12 PM by NIN » Logged
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Ed Bos
Seasoned Member

Posts: 438
Unit: PCR-OR-001

« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2011, 08:30:28 PM »

Sure.

In my hypothetical situation, a Cadet Flight Commander is leading her flight in drill at a meeting. This cadet's mother calls the squadron while this is going on and tells the Squadron Commander that our Flight Commander must return home.

Another cadet is asked to inform the Flight Commander of the situation:

C/1st Lt Smith: "Flight Halt. At Ease."

C/CMSgt Snuffy: "Excuse me, Ma'am. Your mother called and will be here to pick you up in a few minutes. Capt. Johnson took the call and can give you more details. I'm here to finish this drill lesson."

C/1st Lt Smith: "Thank you, the flight is yours."

*Salutes are exchanged"

C/CMSgt Snuffy: "Flight, By My Command, Attention."

...And so the lesson continues...

You see here, this transaction isn't a drill movement, per se. Rather, it's changing who'd running the flight.
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EDWARD A. BOS, Lt Col, CAP
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Ed Bos
Seasoned Member

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Unit: PCR-OR-001

« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2011, 08:33:00 PM »

[EDIT: NVM, I just went back and re-read the thread and my comment was completely superfluous.. -NIN]

Aww, I thought we were going to exchange some high level discussion on this s'more.  :D
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EDWARD A. BOS, Lt Col, CAP
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davidsinn
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« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2011, 08:37:29 PM »

Sure.

In my hypothetical situation, a Cadet Flight Commander is leading her flight in drill at a meeting. This cadet's mother calls the squadron while this is going on and tells the Squadron Commander that our Flight Commander must return home.

Another cadet is asked to inform the Flight Commander of the situation:

C/1st Lt Smith: "Flight Halt. At Ease."

C/CMSgt Snuffy: "Excuse me, Ma'am. Your mother called and will be here to pick you up in a few minutes. Capt. Johnson took the call and can give you more details. I'm here to finish this drill lesson."

C/1st Lt Smith: "Thank you, the flight is yours."

*Salutes are exchanged"

C/CMSgt Snuffy: "Flight, By My Command, Attention."

...And so the lesson continues...

You see here, this transaction isn't a drill movement, per se. Rather, it's changing who'd running the flight.

Isn't it enough that the Sgt starts giving orders? It should be obvious to everyone that the commander has left and the person now giving commands is in charge.
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David Sinn
Ed Bos
Seasoned Member

Posts: 438
Unit: PCR-OR-001

« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2011, 08:41:33 PM »

Even if it is enough (though it may not always be enough) the phrase "By My Command" gets the information to everyone at the same time. That doesn't hurt the formation, especially when I'm in it... I'm frequently lost in my own head when I'm at ease or at parade rest. ;)
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EDWARD A. BOS, Lt Col, CAP
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« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2011, 08:46:27 PM »

Even if it is enough (though it may not always be enough) the phrase "By My Command" gets the information to everyone at the same time. That doesn't hurt the formation, especially when I'm in it... I'm frequently lost in my own head when I'm at ease or at parade rest. ;)

The Air Force stands in formation? Since when? :)

Seriously, though, the Army has no similar command.

The guy standing outside the formation barking a command is considered to have the requisite authority to issue said command, so you'd just better execute it.

Can you see this exchange?

C/CMSgt Snuffy: "Flight, ATTENTION!"
Flight does not move.
C/CMSgt Snuffy: "I said, Flight, ATTENTION!"
Flight still does not move.
C/TSgt HighSpeed (1st element leader): "Chief, you didn't say 'By My Command..'"
C/CMSgt Snuffy: "Uh, is there anybody _ELSE_ out here issuing commands?  A rogue NCO attempting to march cadets off a cliff? No? THEN YOU'D BETTER FOLLOW THE COMMANDS I ISSUE, RIGHT NOW."

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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Ed Bos
Seasoned Member

Posts: 438
Unit: PCR-OR-001

« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2011, 08:50:35 PM »

@NIN: Almost never.

And touche, I concede that not following the orders of Chief Snuffy in that situation would certainly earn a flight some creative snarkiness and withering looks.
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EDWARD A. BOS, Lt Col, CAP
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commando1
Forum Regular

Posts: 129

« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2011, 12:13:34 PM »

1. Shout any command when I have not called the flight to my command.
This command is widely used and accepted in SER also. In fact I have seen C/Col's use this command at my wing encampment. So whether or not it is actually a command or not, it is widely used. My favorite command was when the cadets were saluting I'd call "Ready, Front!" 9 times out of 10 it would work. Or at half-left face call a column movement and sit back and watch the confusion.  >:D
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chickenjoe
Recruit

Posts: 38

« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2011, 12:30:13 PM »

How about this one guys " Present Arms"   " Order Fries " lol
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HGjunkie
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Posts: 1,620

« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2011, 04:03:11 PM »

How about this one guys " Present Arms"   " Order Fries " lol

Present Arms!
Order Armies!
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BillB
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« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2011, 06:53:20 AM »

Try this one.

Double to the rear, by the right flank, left flank, double to the rear   March

Since each movement ends on the wrong foot for the next movement, you'll still find cadets trying to do the movement ending in a flight going six different directions.
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2011, 12:49:34 PM »

Don't forget that there is also the clause in the 36-2203 that says:

Quote
If a command is improperly given, the individuals execute the movement to the best of their ability.

So if the flight sergeant is new and still hasn't figured everything out yet, it is still the flight's responsibility to stop when he says, "Uh, Squa...Flight, Er...STOP!"

I would assume that the same would apply when some joker decides to change the words during a Pass in Review ("[urinate] IN MY SHOE!", or "SMASH ELEPHANT [Cojones]") that they would still be expected to call "Column of Flights, Right Flight, Column Right, MARCH!" or put their hands down when someone says, "Order, PIZZA."  After all, what other command could the flight sergeant be giving in that situation? 
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 12:52:53 PM by MIKE » Logged
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill
commando1
Forum Regular

Posts: 129

« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2011, 06:23:48 PM »

or put their hands down when someone says, "Order, PIZZA."  After all, what other command could the flight sergeant be giving in that situation? 
Maybe the cadets should look at their flight sergeant and determine how hungry he is?  >:D
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HGjunkie
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« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2011, 08:37:19 PM »

Speaking of order pizza...

I did that at the last meeting I went to. One of the cadets actually fell out of flight, walked up to a senior member, and asked the SM to order him some pizza. We all got a good laugh out of that one.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2011, 04:34:57 PM »

Don't forget that there is also the clause in the 36-2203 that says:

Quote
If a command is improperly given, the individuals execute the movement to the best of their ability.

So if the flight sergeant is new and still hasn't figured everything out yet, it is still the flight's responsibility to stop when he says, "Uh, Squa...Flight, Er...STOP!"

I would assume that the same would apply when some joker decides to change the words during a Pass in Review ("[urinate] IN MY SHOE!", or "SMASH ELEPHANT [Cojones]") that they would still be expected to call "Column of Flights, Right Flight, Column Right, MARCH!" or put their hands down when someone says, "Order, PIZZA."  After all, what other command could the flight sergeant be giving in that situation?

One of the reasons why I don't like to play Drill Down by trying to trick the particpants.

It is just as easy to get a bunch of "inspectors" and be really, really, really picky about attention to detail.
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davidsinn
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« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2011, 04:38:40 PM »

Don't forget that there is also the clause in the 36-2203 that says:

Quote
If a command is improperly given, the individuals execute the movement to the best of their ability.

So if the flight sergeant is new and still hasn't figured everything out yet, it is still the flight's responsibility to stop when he says, "Uh, Squa...Flight, Er...STOP!"

I would assume that the same would apply when some joker decides to change the words during a Pass in Review ("[urinate] IN MY SHOE!", or "SMASH ELEPHANT [Cojones]") that they would still be expected to call "Column of Flights, Right Flight, Column Right, MARCH!" or put their hands down when someone says, "Order, PIZZA."  After all, what other command could the flight sergeant be giving in that situation?

One of the reasons why I don't like to play Drill Down by trying to trick the particpants.

It is just as easy to get a bunch of "inspectors" and be really, really, really picky about attention to detail.

According to the rules of the game you aren't supposed to trick them. The idea is to get them to learn it and what better way then extreme attention to detail?
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Former CAP Captain
David Sinn
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