Nameplate on the CSU double-breasted jacket?

[Major Carrales]

IF general Chandler directed CAP to retire a uniform, it should be a matter of public record and CAP record that he did so.

Gen Chandler never directed CAP to retire a uniform.  He and Sec. Goodwin wanted the National Commander to work with the Air Force to modify it; so it would be acceptable to CAP and the USAF.

Sir,
Why was this not done then?  Why, then, the recall and elimination?  Is it not too late to salvage some of it for the sake of member financial relief?

[FW]

The only thing I can tell you, Sparky, is what you already know from these threads and the official notices from NHQ, the NEC and, the NB.  Of course, after August, anything may be possible..... :angel:

[SarDragon]

After comment and adjustment, the uniform was approved by the USAF, and after that approval, and for the first time in memory, all members had a uniform choice that fulfilled 100% of the mission for all members.

You know that isn't true, and I'm sure that you know why.

OK, hippies excepted...we'll never please everyone, but the CSU came pretty close.

I think the name calling is uncalled for.

[Eclipse]

IF general Chandler directed CAP to retire a uniform, it should be a matter of public record and CAP record that he did so.

Gen Chandler never directed CAP to retire a uniform.  He and Sec. Goodwin wanted the National Commander to work with the Air Force to modify it; so it would be acceptable to CAP and the USAF.

Well, then your version either doesn't jive with the official version (such as it was presented), or serves to further reinforce the comment above how our relationship with the USAF is interpreted.  It was adjusted, and apparently is acceptable to the USAF, since we're still wearing it during AFAMS, and most people I have spoken to in the actual USAF, that expressed any opinion either way, have no issue with it (beyond the comment that it is "bright").

[FW]

Take it for what it's worth Eclipse. The letter speaks for itself and I don't speak for anyone other than me.  The NEC made a decision and, that's all for now.  What happens later is anyones guess.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Sir,
Why was this not done then?  Why, then, the recall and elimination?  Is it not too late to salvage some of it for the sake of member financial relief?

It was done - twice that I know of.

1. Elimination of metal grade on the flight cap, per USAF directive.
2. Change "U.S." cutouts to "CAP" on service coat, per USAF directive.

I thought those two incidents were good examples of the USAF and CAP working together on uniform issues.

Then the modifications directed by General Courter, which are completely illogical as I see it.

Not the modifications themselves - the CSU with the grey epaulettes doesn't look bad - but the reasoning behind it:

If the uniform's being binned, then why even bother to modify it?  Why not let it be worn as was, as agreed upon by both CAP and the USAF, until its sunset date?

Does it stand a chance of survival?

Unfortunately, I don't think so, though I have talked to some Wing level officers who believe otherwise.

If it would survive, I would make the following adjustments:

Lose the silver sleeve braid (too gaudy).

Use cadet-blue epaulettes with pin-on metal grade, the way the cadets do.

[Major Carrales]

If the uniform's being binned, then why even bother to modify it?  Why not let it be worn as was, as agreed upon by both CAP and the USAF, until its sunset date?

This was one of the "false hope" elements that convinced many people to buy the service coat and the like.  Many waited upwards of a year to get it fearing it would disappear.  Then these directives came out, seems logical, slaked people's fears and they all went on the Vanguard to order it.  Then, suddenly, it was nixed.  Empty wallets...hearts full, of discontent.

I had spoken to Col Hodgkins about it via e-mail.  I wanted to see if he had any insight on the matter.  I have several Officers in the unit already buying the blue shoulder marks.  He told me to just wait...and buy the Heritage Uniform the USAF was sure to adopt. 

[Eclipse]

Another question in regards to "The Letter" is why the CSAF would go direct to the BOG on something as trivial as a uniform issue and end-around CAP-USAF.  Certainly it is within his authority, but one would think he has a few more important things to worry about than a relative handful of volunteers.

[NCRblues]

Another question in regards to "The Letter" is why the CSAF would go direct to the BOG on something as trivial as a uniform issue and end-around CAP-USAF.  Certainly it is within his authority, but one would think he has a few more important things to worry about than a relative handful of volunteers.

One idea i have, is that if, lets say a couple base commanders see this uniform, and disagree with it, the logical person to handle that situation would be the CoS...because, well, he is the CoS and everyone falls under his command...(cap-usaf as well)

Plus, the CoS signature, and letter head, have a LOT of power behind it...

Like i said, just an idea, I'm sure you wont accept it.

[Eclipse]

Base commanders and others in the military have misunderstood CAP since the 40's - that is not a reason to disavow a uniform, though it is the urban legend supposed in this case.

There are far more overweight and "out of grooming" members wearing USAF-Style uniforms against regs than there are those wearing the CSU.

One would think base commanders would have more issue with that situation than with people wearing something that looks "similar".

[NCRblues]

Base commanders and others in the military have misunderstood CAP since the 40's - that is not a reason to disavow a uniform, though it is the urban legend supposed in this case.

There are far more overweight and "out of grooming" members wearing USAF-Style uniforms against regs than there are those wearing the CSU.

One would think base commanders would have more issue with that situation than with people wearing something that looks "similar".

I agree with you that base commanders have misunderstood CAP forever, but let me tell you an honest to god story.

During an NSI inspection at Whiteman AFB, i was posted as an extra on the main gate of whiteman called spirit gate. The wing commander (at this time he was an o-7) would go around to all the posts and check on his people. At this time i was doing my level one after going over to the dark side (sm).

The wing commander, and his command chief walked into the main pass and ID building, where i was issuing visitor passes. I gave my post report like i was supposed to and before i could finish it up, the chief had my level one paperwork in his hand.

He said "hey sir, our airman here is trying to go to OCS". The wing commander smiled and shook my hand and said what a smart move that would be. I being a fresh A1C was scared to correct him but i did, and i said " uh, no sir, I'm studying to get my first level of PD done for CAP".

The wing commander just looked at me like i was stupid. The command chief put the papers down and walked away. The wing king then asked "what is the civil air patrol".

I was shocked. I figured this o-7 would have an idea, considering MO wing HQ was on his base, but nope. He sat and talked to me for 2 hours about CAP, and most of his questions were about our uniforms. At the end, he sounded very happy about it.

The next day i got called into my squadron commanders office in full dress blues. Man i thought i was in trouble, turned out the wing commander put me in for "top performer" for the 509th BW, and gave me 2 weeks off.

It just goes to show you that it doesn't matter the position or rank in the AF, if you don't know about us, all you see are people in a uniform that looks like the AF's but a little different.

Education is a key component that needs to be addressed with AETC. I don't know how, but people in Basic training, and officer training need to be told the basics of CAP. Who we are, what we wear, and what we can and cant do....It would solve a lot of trouble.

[Eclipse]

Education is a key component that needs to be addressed with AETC. I don't know how, but people in Basic training, and officer training need to be told the basics of CAP. Who we are, what we wear, and what we can and cant do....It would solve a lot of trouble.

Agreed, perhaps familiarity breeds contempt.   I know I never encounter these issues at Great Lakes.

But then again I ain't trollin', and would never consider anything but "hello" so someone who didn't salute.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

What Eclipse and NCR said is very true.

AETC, our "parent" Command, has done a terrible-to-nonexistent job of educating Airmen about CAP.

In fact, one of the posts I read on the Air Force Times article said that an MTI had explicitly told the poster in BMT "if you see a CAP officer, ignore them."  I would dearly like to enlighten that MTI (without trying to "pull rank"), who I'm going to guess is probably a young SrA who has a bee in his/her butt about CAP, rather than an older, more experienced NCO who may be more acquainted with CAP.

If that's what Airmen are getting told in Basic Training, that is a real problem.

I think that Eclipse's experience with Navy/CAP relations at Great Lakes has a lot of parallels with my own experience with other services.  Not just salutes, but it seems like the Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Coasties I encounter are just nicer to me than most AF personnel.

I also agree fully that perceived/projected/unsubstantiated AF displeasure with the CSU is not grounds for getting rid of it...but as I said, they didn't ask me.

[davidsinn]

I think that Eclipse's experience with Navy/CAP relations at Great Lakes has a lot of parallels with my own experience with other services.  Not just salutes, but it seems like the Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Coasties I encounter are just nicer to me than most AF personnel.

I have a similar anecdote: I once went to a joint recruiting office to leave some pamphlets. The Navy was the nicest to speak with and most supportive followed by the business like but helpful Marines. After that we had the Air Force which was civil but somewhat cold. I won't go into detail about the Army but it wasn't very pleasant.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I think that Eclipse's experience with Navy/CAP relations at Great Lakes has a lot of parallels with my own experience with other services.  Not just salutes, but it seems like the Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Coasties I encounter are just nicer to me than most AF personnel.

I have a similar anecdote: I once went to a joint recruiting office to leave some pamphlets. The Navy was the nicest to speak with and most supportive followed by the business like but helpful Marines. After that we had the Air Force which was civil but somewhat cold. I won't go into detail about the Army but it wasn't very pleasant.

I have experienced very different interactions with the services, not at a recruiting station, but here at Camp Atterbury. I have crossed paths with plenty of Army Personnel and most of the time they are quick to salute to which I sharply return and reply with Thank You. I haven't had a bad experience with the Army yet, but my worst experiences are with the USAF and Marines, Marines being the worst. USAF just seems to not want anything to do with us, and Marines want to know why in the heck CAP cadets aren't in Marine JROTC instead.

[davidsinn]

I think that Eclipse's experience with Navy/CAP relations at Great Lakes has a lot of parallels with my own experience with other services.  Not just salutes, but it seems like the Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Coasties I encounter are just nicer to me than most AF personnel.

I have a similar anecdote: I once went to a joint recruiting office to leave some pamphlets. The Navy was the nicest to speak with and most supportive followed by the business like but helpful Marines. After that we had the Air Force which was civil but somewhat cold. I won't go into detail about the Army but it wasn't very pleasant.

I have experienced very different interactions with the services, not at a recruiting station, but here at Camp Atterbury. I have crossed paths with plenty of Army Personnel and most of the time they are quick to salute to which I sharply return and reply with Thank You. I haven't had a bad experience with the Army yet, but my worst experiences are with the USAF and Marines, Marines being the worst. USAF just seems to not want anything to do with us, and Marines want to know why in the heck CAP cadets aren't in Marine JROTC instead.

I wasn't trying to make a statement on service relations, merely one anecdote. I have had friendly discussions with Army personnel since then. I was merely confirming that in my experience the Navy is the nicest to work with. Also the AFNG is awesome to work with.

[MIKE]

I have crossed paths with plenty of Army Personnel and most of the time they are quick to salute to which I sharply return and reply with Thank You.

Thank you just sounds weird to me.  I would just use Good morning/afternoon/evening and possibly a rank appropriate acknowledgment if I catch it in time, and continue on my way.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I would just use Good morning/afternoon/evening and possibly a rank appropriate acknowledgment if I catch it in time, and continue on my way.

That's more or less what I do.

With Navy/CG personnel, since they have so many different rates, and I don't know many of them, I usually just say "Seaman," "Petty Officer," "Senior Chief" or "Master Chief."

One new wrinkle (pun intended) in the never-ending thread (another pun intended) about uniforms is that, if the reports about misbehaviour by the CAP Major to the AF airman are true, all of the Bravo Sierra about the CSU or any other uniforms may be moot.

It may be that the AF will decide to "reward" us by limiting wear of the AF uniform to cadets.