I am having trouble with the jargon that refers to Cadets as Enlisted

[Robert Hartigan]

Okay maybe it is just me but, when I was a cadet we were cadets and nothing more.

When I joined I was a Cadet Basic, then a Cadet, then a Cadet 1st Class.  Now, I see cadets being referred to as Enlisted grades or given awards like "Cadet Enlisted Man of the Year." I have trouble with a cadet being referred to as enlisted.

I have even more trouble with cadets be called Airman.  An Airman is a war fighter, just like a Soldier is a war fighter, just like a Marine is a war fighter, just like a Sailor is a war fighter.

A cadet is a child. So substitute Child for Cadet. You now have Child War Fighter Basic; Child War Fighter, Child War Fighter 1st Class, Child Senior War Fighter.  Wait...  ...what? That does not sound like America it sounds like Africa and South America. And, I have been to places where the childeren were better armed then my unit.

I am sure that the war fighters on this page, me included, would do what ever it takes to give the honorable title of Airman back if it meant children would not know war.

No matter your politics you have to agree that war is a final answer to a failed political question. Or, maybe the final question to a failed political answer.

The leadership lessons our cadets are supposed to learn should be those that transfer to all situations in life. Why would you start by calling your new students by titles of war.

Now before someone flames me as liberal or anti war, think and look back! I never said I was against war. I believe in an eye for an eye.  If called, I would go and hate ever minute but, as a professional Airman I would never turn the other cheek. I believe that our military should be allowed to do the job we are trained for and we can all ask our god for forgiveness at the end.

I put my thoughts out to create debate and dialog because I feel my concerns are real and justified.  Your comments are anticipated and appreciated. I hope that they will clarify this for me. Right now, I feel like we may be making a mistake and not even know it.

Robert Hartigan

[fyrfitrmedic]

 It would appear that you're reading far too much into the use of the term 'Airman' within CAP's Cadet Program.

The terminology in use hasn't changed all that much in over a quarter-century. Why is it an issue now?

It'd be nice if children were never to know war, but that's probably a topic for another venue altogether.

[Chris Jacobs]

We refer to cadets as "airman" in reference to their grade, not in reference to what they do.  The same goes with the term "enlisted".  now while i do refer to cadets that hold the airmen ranks as "airmen" i don't just call the non cadet officer cadets enlisted cadets.  the only time that i throw the word enlisted out is when i refer to the ranks as "the enlisted ranks".  I don't think that there is any problem with this because one of the goals of the cadet program is to educate cadets on aerospace careers, and what better aerospace career is there than the air force.  i think letting cadets be called airmen is not a big problem as long as they don't take it too far and think of them selves on the same level as real airmen, and take the title with honor.  I think most cadets represt the real airmen well, and i have had many vets come up to me in tears at different veteran events thanking me for representing the armed forces in the way that we do.  So i think that it is OK that we call cadet airmen, airmen.

But i do see your concern, and i think there are those that take it too far.

[MIKE]

Okay maybe it is just me but, when I was a cadet we were cadets and nothing more.

They still are... Kinda.

NOTE Cadets are addressed as `Cadet` by CAP senior
members, USAF officers, and enlisted personnel. Within the
cadet structure, cadets will address other cadets by the
appropriate term.

When I joined I was a Cadet Basic, then a Cadet, then a Cadet 1st Class.  Now, I see cadets being referred to as Enlisted grades or given awards like "Cadet Enlisted Man of the Year." I have trouble with a cadet being referred to as enlisted.

Times change... So do the terms for the grades.  AFJROTC has the same ones BTW.  Even in your day there were Cadet Staff Sergeants and Cadet Majors being called sergeant and major respectively.

I have even more trouble with cadets be called Airman.  An Airman is a war fighter, just like a Soldier is a war fighter, just like a Marine is a war fighter, just like a Sailor is a war fighter.

Blame the USAF for having the term of address for junior enlisted be the same for an all-inclusive term for an Air Force service person. 

The leadership lessons our cadets are supposed to learn should be those that transfer to all situations in life. Why would you start by calling your new students by titles of war.

What are we the sometimes auxiliary of again, and who pays for that free military uniform for little Johnny or Janey?

Now let me ask you a question.  Were you sober when you wrote this little gem?

[Hawk200]

NOTE Cadets are addressed as `Cadet` by CAP senior
members, USAF officers, and enlisted personnel. Within the
cadet structure, cadets will address other cadets by the
appropriate term.

Hmm, guess I've been busting that pub for awhile.....

[Ned]

A cadet is a child.
Robert Hartigan

Robert,


I think I see the problem.

A cadet is not a child.  CAP cadets range in age from 12 - 21 years of age. 

Military enlistees can be as young as 17.

US Army cadets can be as old as 25, and historically could be as old as 40  or so at West Point.



A "cadet" is simply a military student.  Nothing more or less.

IOW, the concepts of "cadethood" and "childhood" are simply unrelated.

Apples and oranges

Some cadets are children, some are adults.

But all are military leadership students.

Hope that helps.

Ned Lee
(former cadet, former child)

[Chris Jacobs]

A cadet is a child.
Robert Hartigan

Robert,


I think I see the problem.

A cadet is not a child.  CAP cadets range in age from 12 - 21 years of age. 

Military enlistees can be as young as 17.

US Army cadets can be as old as 25, and historically could be as old as 40  or so at West Point.



A "cadet" is simply a military student.  Nothing more or less.

IOW, the concepts of "cadethood" and "childhood" are simply unrelated.

Apples and oranges

Some cadets are children, some are adults.

But all are military leadership students.

Hope that helps.

Ned Lee
(former cadet, former child)

That is a good point.  Also if we call cadets airmen they might try to behave more like adults.  Not to say that some of the real air force airmen that i have met don't have their childish moments, but maybe giving the cadets this title will make them grow up a little.  They will see the real airmen as roll models and examples which a lot of young adults don't have.

[Nathan]

Does Mr. Hartigan have a better solution?

Honestly, I see the point. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I do see it. So if he has a problem with us being referred to as a "warfighting term", then what would be an alternative? Or are we just complaining to complain?

[mikeylikey]

This was one of the more amusing posts in a while.   

[DNall]

(by an ANG SSgt in the box by the way)
Outside of AFSOC, what enlisted Airmen are you talking about? SORRY SORRY, I had to. Seriously though, like 4% of the AF is in a combat element. The AF is primarily a support service. "Warrior" as used in the AF is about mission-centric attitude & willingness to put it on the line, and everyone in CAP should have the same thing.

Cadets, may be children after they leave my meeting, but during those set times with me they are treated as adults (immature ones that need supervision maybe, but still). They are not with me to play games, they are there for character, leadershio, & knowledge development to give them future opportunities as a warfighter that they might not otherwise have, and to get a small taste of it before tehy get there. I do view & treat them like enlisted troops & they do respond very favorably.

Phase IV cadets are another story now, they get something more like a peer or direct mentor relationship depending on the circumstance, and they to respond very well to people that know how to lead them while holding high standards & giving them a lot of latitude to make things happen.

[lordmonar]

I also got to say...that in the five years we were in Bosnia...there was not one USAF unintential discharge of a weapon....they army cannot say the same and we were in there with about equal numbers.

[CAP428]

I agree with the majority of the posts above.  They are called airmen because, a) the grade structure is modeled after the Air Force's and b) in this case it is a title and not a job description.

And just a side note, not all cadets are "children."  You can stay in the cadet program until you're 21.  While a 20 year-old cadet may not be the wisest person on earth, I'm not sure I would call him (or her) a "child" either.

[TDHenderson]

Hmm, guess I've been busting that pub for awhile.....

Me too.  I always make it a point to address a Cadet by his/her grade.  It shows respect.  I know I appreciated it when I was a Cadet.

[Hawk200]

Hmm, guess I've been busting that pub for awhile.....

Me too.  I always make it a point to address a Cadet by his/her grade.  It shows respect.  I know I appreciated it when I was a Cadet.

Same thing here. Good to know I'm not the only one.

[Psicorp]

A cadet is a child.
Robert Hartigan

Robert,


I think I see the problem.
A cadet is not a child.  CAP cadets range in age from 12 - 21 years of age. 
A "cadet" is simply a military student.  Nothing more or less.
IOW, the concepts of "cadethood" and "childhood" are simply unrelated.
Apples and oranges
But all are military leadership students.
Hope that helps.
Ned Lee
(former cadet, former child)

For me that pretty well sums it up.  As far as Mr. Hartigan's concerns about warfare, I must say that I have worked with and under Senior Member Officers that I wouldn't want to see on the battlefield...so it's a good thing our organization is non-combatant

[MIKE]

Hmm, guess I've been busting that pub for awhile.....

Me too.  I always make it a point to address a Cadet by his/her grade.  It shows respect.  I know I appreciated it when I was a Cadet.

Same thing here. Good to know I'm not the only one.

Yeah that's the argument you will hear most often against use of just Cadet... You really shouldn't be calling them sergeant or colonel though, as a senior.

[DNall]

Why not? The only time a say "Cadet Lt XYZ" rather than "Lt XYZ" is when his dad is a SM Lt & I need to specify which one I'm talking about, or really in general when I need to specifically point out I'm talking about a cadet officer, once that's established it's just extra words I don't need to say to get my point across. It's pretty obvious when it's enlisted grades. I really don't have a problem with it. The big thing I focus on is don't call people b ytheir first names, & alwyas say "Mr" in front of a cadet officer's name if you don't know or aren't using their grade, just last names on enlisted. Just treat them w/ the respect they've worked hard to earn & that you really do owe them, it's as simple as that.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Cadets are Children?

Legally, some might be, but...

The cadets that we have in CAP differ from every other youth program in one very important way.  They CAN and sometimes ARE assigned to perform a non-combat mission for the USAF.

When I commanded a cadet squadron, I put out a written policy that officers were NOT to refer to cadets as "The kids" or "The boys and girls," or any other perjorative or diminutive terms.  They were, at all times, "The cadets."  Informally, I would accept "The troops."

They were expected to do an airman's job.  They will be treated by their leaders as airmen.  If you treat them like kids, they will act like kids. 

On Monday morning they will be back in school where they need a written permission slip to go to the bathroom, but on the mission they are Cadets of the United States Air Force Auxiliary.

[ZigZag911]

Hmm, guess I've been busting that pub for awhile.....

Me too.  I always make it a point to address a Cadet by his/her grade.  It shows respect.  I know I appreciated it when I was a Cadet.

I do too, for the same reasons....

Same thing here. Good to know I'm not the only one.

[Major Carrales]

It seems to me I've heard this song before.  This is the sort of discussion about CAP that goes on on other forums where CAP is looked at as a group of "posers and pretenders."  What are the chances that this may be an associate from one such place posting this thread to "beat the bushes" for people to come out and make all sorts of comments that would be fodder there.

If this is in fact...

"996 Robert Hartigan 01 May 1990 OH "

I am in mind to question why such a comment would be made by a Spaatzian?

In amendum...

Frankly,  take offense at those that see CAP as "posers and pretenders."  CAP is what it is and is not what it is not.  We ARE volunteers that serve our community on behalf of and for the USAF.  There are ways we are like the USAF, like the cadet rank structures and the uniforms, and there are many² more ways we are not like the USAF.

Be more proud of what you are than ashamed of what you are not!

[CAP428]

To those who have said that they address cadets by their grade as a sign of respect:  I know what you mean.  I am a cadet, and I appreciate it when a Senior Member addresses me by my grade.

However, it's not exactly in line with CAPP 151, our guide to Customs and Courtesies.  Just food for thought, here is what it has to say:

NOTE Cadets are addressed as `Cadet` by CAP senior
members, USAF officers, and enlisted personnel. Within the
cadet structure, cadets will address other cadets by the
appropriate term.

So, technically you should be addressing cadets as "Cadet," not by their grade.

[CAP428]

It seems I have missed the fact that this was also stated previously on page 1.  So never mind my above post, thought it is still pertinent.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I knew that, but I address cadet NCO's and cadet officers by their grade.  I also used to substitute teach at a school with a JROTC, and on uniform days I would address all cadets in class by their ranks.

Just as you said, it is a matter of respect.  The more you give, the more you get.

[ZigZag911]

I use the grade especially when speaking to or about cadet leaders in front of their subordinate cadets.

[Jolt]

I know I really appreciate being addressed by my grade.  What I don't like is being addressed by the wrong grade when I'm wearing it in about two or three places.  So... I would prefer being called "cadet" if someone's not sure how to read cadet grade.

[sandman]

I know I really appreciate being addressed by my grade.  What I don't like is being addressed by the wrong grade when I'm wearing it in about two or three places.  So... I would prefer being called "cadet" if someone's not sure how to read cadet grade.

Sorry, I cannot address you by your "grade". I can only address you as "cadet" as it is the only appropriate way to address cadets.
When making presentations such as awards, I will address and introduce you as "cadet captain".

On the other side of the coin, I don't have much of a problem with cadets using the term "E-1" through "E-9" to denote their grade as I mentally convert the "E" from "enlisted" to "enrollee" and the "O" from "officer" to "officeholder" ( i.e. position of trust).

It's about one's perception and the others presentation. If the cadet tries to insist on being referred to as "enlisted" or an "officer", then a gentle moment of mentorship ensues...

[SarDragon]

I actually prefer to use a cadet's rank while addressing him/her, especially if a cadet officer. (My aging eyes don't decipher the airman insigia too well any more.) I think it shows a little added respect for the time and effort the cadet has expended to get to that point in the program.

As an aside - cadet airman, or simply airman, refers to all non-officer cadets; Cadet Airman refers to those holding that specific rank. When properly used, the current terminology works well, and there is no need to introduce more confusion by using "enlisted".

[sandman]

I actually prefer to use a cadet's rank while addressing him/her, especially if a cadet officer. (My aging eyes don't decipher the airman insigia too well any more.) I think it shows a little added respect for the time and effort the cadet has expended to get to that point in the program.

As an aside - cadet airman, or simply airman, refers to all non-officer cadets; Cadet Airman refers to those holding that specific rank. When properly used, the current terminology works well, and there is no need to introduce more confusion by using "enlisted".

OK Dave, maybe you're right. I will rethink my statement.....

Actually, I usually use the cadet's grade and name when addressing him or her while conducting business within the cadet program. I will use the term "cadet (grade) (last name)" when conducting business within the senior realm.

I will continue to use only "cadet (name)" when the cadet begins to pi-- me off by doing stupid things. I love it when some Spaatz cadet colonel becomes power drunk and just by calling the cadet "cadet" seems to give him or her a moment to pause...

Part of that mentorship thing I guess.

[ZigZag911]

. I love it when some Spaatz cadet colonel becomes power drunk and just by calling the cadet "cadet" seems to give him or her a moment to pause...

Part of that mentorship thing I guess.

I take it you call virtually all Spaatzes "Cadet"

[Guardrail]

. I love it when some Spaatz cadet colonel becomes power drunk and just by calling the cadet "cadet" seems to give him or her a moment to pause...

Part of that mentorship thing I guess.

I take it you call virtually all Spaatzes "Cadet"

What's wrong with that?  He's following regulations.  If some C/Col can't stand being called "cadet" by a CAP or military officer/NCO, tough. 

[Jolt]

OK Dave, maybe you're right. I will rethink my statement.....

Actually, I usually use the cadet's grade and name when addressing him or her while conducting business within the cadet program. I will use the term "cadet (grade) (last name)" when conducting business within the senior realm.

I will continue to use only "cadet (name)" when the cadet begins to pi-- me off by doing stupid things. I love it when some Spaatz cadet colonel becomes power drunk and just by calling the cadet "cadet" seems to give him or her a moment to pause...

Part of that mentorship thing I guess.

Sir, I'm going to have to say that I respectfully disagree with the way you do things (unless I misunderstood your post).  I'll acknowledge the fact that cadets are supposed to be addressed as "cadet" by senior members and military members and whoever else, but I think it's extremely condescending to call a Spaatz cadet "cadet" for no other reason than to "pop his balloon."  Also, in my opinion, I don't believe it's alright to call a cadet "cadet" in front of their subordinates just because they're getting on your nerves because of what they say about "praise in public, punish in private."  IMHO, no one really deserves it if you're just trying to put them in their place.  My thinking is that a senior member would also more than likely be insulted if one of his superiors came up to him in front of his subordinates and called him by his first name (which is analogous to what's happening when a high ranking cadet officer is addressed by one of the terms that senior members are allowed to use when addressing cadets).

I apologize if I misinterpreted you, sir, and I don't mean to disrespect you with anything I just said, but that's just the way I see things and I wanted to share my views.  Please don't think that I'm trying to tell you what to do, sir, I just wanted to say what I thought, and I'm really trying to do it in the most tactful way that I can.  I've reread and edited this several times.

Also, sir, I said in my prior post that I appreciated it when senior members address me using the grade I earned.  I would never expect that of any senior member.  I was just saying that it was a nice bonus and that I respect those that do address cadets using the grade that they earned.

[flyguy06]

OK Dave, maybe you're right. I will rethink my statement.....

Actually, I usually use the cadet's grade and name when addressing him or her while conducting business within the cadet program. I will use the term "cadet (grade) (last name)" when conducting business within the senior realm.

I will continue to use only "cadet (name)" when the cadet begins to pi-- me off by doing stupid things. I love it when some Spaatz cadet colonel becomes power drunk and just by calling the cadet "cadet" seems to give him or her a moment to pause...

Part of that mentorship thing I guess.

Sir, I'm going to have to say that I respectfully disagree with the way you do things (unless I misunderstood your post).  I'll acknowledge the fact that cadets are supposed to be addressed as "cadet" by senior members and military members and whoever else, but I think it's extremely condescending to call a Spaatz cadet "cadet" for no other reason than to "pop his balloon."  Also, in my opinion, I don't believe it's alright to call a cadet "cadet" in front of their subordinates just because they're getting on your nerves because of what they say about "praise in public, punish in private."  IMHO, no one really deserves it if you're just trying to put them in their place.  My thinking is that a senior member would also more than likely be insulted if one of his superiors came up to him in front of his subordinates and called him by his first name (which is analogous to what's happening when a high ranking cadet officer is addressed by one of the terms that senior members are allowed to use when addressing cadets).

I apologize if I misinterpreted you, sir, and I don't mean to disrespect you with anything I just said, but that's just the way I see things and I wanted to share my views.  Please don't think that I'm trying to tell you what to do, sir, I just wanted to say what I thought, and I'm really trying to do it in the most tactful way that I can.  I've reread and edited this several times.

Also, sir, I said in my prior post that I appreciated it when senior members address me using the grade I earned.  I would never expect that of any senior member.  I was just saying that it was a nice bonus and that I respect those that do address cadets using the grade that they earned.

The post above is an exa,ple of why I believe the cadet program is falling apart in terms of discipline. A cadet is a cadet. A cadet is in a trainee staus. The rank given him is not permanant. He can be a cadet commandr one day and an element member the next. Its training. So, I dont think its inproper to cal a cadet officer "cadet " in front f junior cadets. You are all training. No one os better than the other.Its all about leadership training.

Unfortunantly to many cadets think because they are caets officers they are on the same level as senior members. I remember one time I was a TAC officer at a region encampment. The cadet Commander was actually tying to give me orders and tel what I could and could not do. I couldnt believe this.Whan I was a cadet I would NEVER think of ordering a senior member around no matter what my poston was in the cadet corps I was still a cadet.

Yes, I recognize cadet leaders. And I give them more responsibility then caet Airmen, but that authority only goes so far.

[Jolt]

I didn't really want to start an argument, I just wanted to say how I saw things.

While we can all be moved around and go from cadet commander one day to element leader the next, this really never happens in the cadet program.  If we're truly training for real leadership, then why not treat us like it?

Also, sir, I absolutely agree with you 100% that there's nothing wrong with being called "cadet" in front of other cadets.  I'm not ashamed of being a cadet.  What I don't like is being called "cadet" in front of other cadets as a way to humble me or try to show me discipline.  It's like all kinds of discipline and I believe it's better when it's done in private.  I guess I didn't explain myself well enough.

I would also like to reply to that part about the cadet giving you orders, sir.  I think that one important part of leadership training, and therefore the cadet program, is learning how to interact with superiors and try to get your point across in a way that will get them to see how you're thinking and not step on anyone's toes at the same time.  I know I've made that mistake before (I'm probably making it as I write this) and I make a good effort to learn from every success and mistake I make when doing that.  So what I'm offering is that maybe the communication between the cadet and the TAC was misunderstood and he didn't know how to explain himself when he was trying to make a suggestion (and I think making suggestions is a perfectly reasonable thing for a cadet to do) and he came across as trying to give an order.  I've probably unknowingly done that before.  Maybe what you're seeing, sir, is not the cadet program falling apart and losing discipline, but a misinformed cadet officer that might need some mentoring (not yelling) when it comes to working with superiors.

Sir, all I'm trying to do is offer the perspective of a cadet.  Maybe we don't even realize when we do stupid things (in fact, I'm pretty sure that we don't), but since we're in training, I've always thought that it's okay to make mistakes.  Maybe the problem is not with the discipline of the cadet program, but it's with the training part of it.  I know that if I came across as if I was trying to give an order to one of my superiors, I would want to know about it so that I didn't make that mistake again, it would be even better if someone told me nicely and even gave me advice on how to fix it.  It's just my opinion that showing your power by, in turn, ordering the cadet to do something wouldn't fix the problem and only make them lose respect for you and the problem would never get fixed.

Just my two cents.  I'm not looking for a flaming or a "that's why the cadet program is falling apart."

But, then again, what would I know?  As this thread implies, I'm just a 16 year old child that knows nothing about what's going on around me.

So at this point, I've thrown myself completely out on a limb.  Most of this is what I've gathered that the program should be like through my experiences in CAP, whatever leadership training I've received, and what I think I've collected from the views of other CAP members like the ones on these CAP boards.  I'm really hoping someone can see where I'm coming from on at least something.

[SarDragon]

Calling a Cadet Colonel cadet is merely a reminder of status. I would generally expect not to have to resort to such behaviour, but if it were warranted, I would do it in a civil, off-hand manner.

[sandman]

Sir, I'm going to have to say that I respectfully disagree with the way you do things (unless I misunderstood your post).  I'll acknowledge the fact that cadets are supposed to be addressed as "cadet" by senior members and military members and whoever else

Joe, Let's pause and reflect on your acknowledgement....

Ok, moving on:

....but I think it's extremely condescending to call a Spaatz cadet "cadet" for no other reason than to "pop his balloon."  Also, in my opinion, I don't believe it's alright to call a cadet "cadet" in front of their subordinates just because they're getting on your nerves because of what they say about "praise in public, punish in private."  IMHO, no one really deserves it if you're just trying to put them in their place.  My thinking is that a senior member would also more than likely be insulted if one of his superiors came up to him in front of his subordinates and called him by his first name (which is analogous to what's happening when a high ranking cadet officer is addressed by one of the terms that senior members are allowed to use when addressing cadets).

Umm...no..Joe. My "superiors" routinely call me by my first name. It's a part of the collegial environment you will find in many areas of the military.

I apologize if I misinterpreted you, sir, and I don't mean to disrespect you with anything I just said, but that's just the way I see things and I wanted to share my views.  Please don't think that I'm trying to tell you what to do, sir, I just wanted to say what I thought, and I'm really trying to do it in the most tactful way that I can.  I've reread and edited this several times.

That thought never even crossed my mind

Also, sir, I said in my prior post that I appreciated it when senior members address me using the grade I earned.  I would never expect that of any senior member.  I was just saying that it was a nice bonus and that I respect those that do address cadets using the grade that they earned.

My thought here; "earning" your CAP cadet grade is one thing, earning a senior member's CAP officer's good graces in which he/she address you by your grade is something you must earn at each meeting. How, you might ask? By keeping up your school grades, treating fellow cadets with respect, learning good citizenship, emulating great leaders and reflecting that leadership to cadets subordinate to you....in other words, everything good that CAP and the officers are trying to inculcate into that skull full of mush.

While I appreciate your willingness to step up and voice your opinion, I suggest you take the extra time to pause and consider your position....You may not realize it but you're on the edge young padawan.

Keep up the good work Joe.....

[sandman]

I take it you call virtually all Spaatzes "Cadet"

If the mood and situation suits me.....ummm....yeeessssss

[Fifinella]

At the Air Force Academy, cadets are addressed by other cadets and all staff (officer, enlisted, & civilian) as "cadet", not "C/rank".  (Unless they were still in basic training - then they were addressed as "basic".)

[SAR-EMT1]

At the Air Force Academy, cadets are addressed by other cadets and all staff (officer, enlisted, & civilian) as "cadet", not "C/rank".  (Unless they were still in basic training - then they were addressed as "basic".)

Same in ROTC/ JROTC
And Id like to impress something on any cadets reading this:
In ROTC you are expected to address the cadre NCO's as Sir or Ma'am just as if they were an officer.
Now it just so happened that there was a young, brash CAP Cadet OFFICER who informed this cadre member that he was NOT going to do this, that he would call said cadre member Sgt.  - and that was that.
  For the record I don't think anyone has ever earned himself a seat in the CO's office faster then that. (and I mean the AD Col. not the ROTC C/Col.)
For the record...Cadet equals trainee. Officer equals leader  NCO equals manager.   Don't step out of line. 

[afgeo4]

Okay maybe it is just me but, when I was a cadet we were cadets and nothing more.

When I joined I was a Cadet Basic, then a Cadet, then a Cadet 1st Class.  Now, I see cadets being referred to as Enlisted grades or given awards like "Cadet Enlisted Man of the Year." I have trouble with a cadet being referred to as enlisted.

I have even more trouble with cadets be called Airman.  An Airman is a war fighter, just like a Soldier is a war fighter, just like a Marine is a war fighter, just like a Sailor is a war fighter.

A cadet is a child. So substitute Child for Cadet. You now have Child War Fighter Basic; Child War Fighter, Child War Fighter 1st Class, Child Senior War Fighter.  Wait...  ...what? That does not sound like America it sounds like Africa and South America. And, I have been to places where the childeren were better armed then my unit.

I am sure that the war fighters on this page, me included, would do what ever it takes to give the honorable title of Airman back if it meant children would not know war.

No matter your politics you have to agree that war is a final answer to a failed political question. Or, maybe the final question to a failed political answer.

The leadership lessons our cadets are supposed to learn should be those that transfer to all situations in life. Why would you start by calling your new students by titles of war.

Now before someone flames me as liberal or anti war, think and look back! I never said I was against war. I believe in an eye for an eye.  If called, I would go and hate ever minute but, as a professional Airman I would never turn the other cheek. I believe that our military should be allowed to do the job we are trained for and we can all ask our god for forgiveness at the end.

I put my thoughts out to create debate and dialog because I feel my concerns are real and justified.  Your comments are anticipated and appreciated. I hope that they will clarify this for me. Right now, I feel like we may be making a mistake and not even know it.

Robert Hartigan

Do you have issues with cadets being called Officers?  Let's face it, our current cadet structure contains Cadet Enlisted and Cadet Officer grades. Now... these cadets are not enlisted or commissioned, but their grades reflect enlisted/officer grades in the Air Force. Remember... they're just names of grades. They don't signify much of anything except the place in the cadet program the specific cadet is in.

[afgeo4]

At the Air Force Academy, cadets are addressed by other cadets and all staff (officer, enlisted, & civilian) as "cadet", not "C/rank".  (Unless they were still in basic training - then they were addressed as "basic".)

Same in ROTC/ JROTC
And Id like to impress something on any cadets reading this:
In ROTC you are expected to address the cadre NCO's as Sir or Ma'am just as if they were an officer.
Now it just so happened that there was a young, brash CAP Cadet OFFICER who informed this cadre member that he was NOT going to do this, that he would call said cadre member Sgt.  - and that was that.
  For the record I don't think anyone has ever earned himself a seat in the CO's office faster then that. (and I mean the AD Col. not the ROTC C/Col.)
For the record...Cadet equals trainee. Officer equals leader  NCO equals manager.   Don't step out of line. 

This event is unique to ROTC because it prepares people for service as commissioned officers. It teaches new officers to call higher ranked officers sir/ma'am and instills the self-recongition among cadet NCOs. CAP does not prepare cadets to become commissioned officers in the US military, so the learning tool is useless here.

The same training technique is used in USAF basic training. MTIs who are NCOs are called sir/ma'am by trainees because the said trainees need to learn to call officers sir/ma'am. There are practically no officers around in BMT, so the trainees practice on  the MTIs. The Army does not do this because as a soldier, you face fewer officers in your daily life than you do as an Airman. Remember, the Air Force operational requirement is filled by officers, so there are a lot more on a USAF base than on an Army base.

[afgeo4]

Oh and Lt Sandman...

I must take the cadet's side of the argument here. I believe that your superior in the US Navy calls you Lt. or Mr. Sandman in front of your subordinates just as you call them Sir or Ma'am. I believe that is the proper term of address in the Navy. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

In the Air Force and CAP we too must make use of appropriate terminology. When you are speaking to a Staff Sergeant in public, and around his subordinates, please call him Sergeant so-and-so. He/she will call you Sir. When you are addressing a cadet in public and in front of his/her subordinates, the proper way to address that cadet is by his/her grade which would be Cadet Sergeant or Cadet Colonel. He or she will address you as Sir. What goes on in private is a whole other issue, but as to set an example of respect for your grade and the cadet's you MUST address them properly.

Having said that, technically there is nothing that says you cannot address a cadet by "Cadet". It is the equivalent of addressing you as "Sailor" (which everyone in the Navy is) or an Air Force General as "Airman" (which everyone in the Air Force is), but... the culture of the services says otherwise and I'd really recommend that you don't address your superiors or subordinates by such a general denomenation. They've earned more than that. That goes for Civil Air Patrol too.

I understand that you know how this applies to the Navy; I just want to reiterate that it applies to the Civil Air Patrol just as much.

[ZigZag911]

. I love it when some Spaatz cadet colonel becomes power drunk and just by calling the cadet "cadet" seems to give him or her a moment to pause...

Part of that mentorship thing I guess.

I take it you call virtually all Spaatzes "Cadet"

What's wrong with that?  He's following regulations.  If some C/Col can't stand being called "cadet" by a CAP or military officer/NCO, tough. 

Not a thing....my implication, picking up on his statement, was that most Spaatz recipients get 'power drunk'.

[ZigZag911]

I think it's extremely condescending to call a Spaatz cadet "cadet" for no other reason than to "pop his balloon."  

I think that's his point...he's getting the cadet's full attention.....and it may not seem like a nice thing to do, but, unfortunately, with some cadet colonels (and other cadet officers!) it is sometimes necessary......I know it was with me at times, when I was a C/Capt and got a bit carried away with my importance in the overall scheme of things.

[ZigZag911]

While I appreciate your willingness to step up and voice your opinion, I suggest you take the extra time to pause and consider your position....You may not realize it but you're on the edge young padawan.

That's not really fair, he's been strong in his opinions, but entirely respectful.

[ZigZag911]

At the Air Force Academy, cadets are addressed by other cadets and all staff (officer, enlisted, & civilian) as "cadet", not "C/rank".  (Unless they were still in basic training - then they were addressed as "basic".)

True, and in the Royal Navy they say 'leftenant' rather than 'lootenant'....but we're neither RN nor AFA

[sandman]

Ok George, you opened yourself up...

Oh and Lt Sandman...

I must take the cadet's side of the argument here. I believe that your superior in the US Navy calls you Lt. or Mr. Sandman in front of your subordinates just as you call them Sir or Ma'am. I believe that is the proper term of address in the Navy. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Consider yourself corrected. Since you and I do not work together daily, you are making the mistake of assuming....

In the Air Force and CAP we too must make use of appropriate terminology.

Another assumption. As a volunteer, I am not obligated by law to address you or any other CAP member, cadet or senior, by their CAP grade (assuming were keeping on track with the discussion of the original subject line).

When you are speaking to a Staff Sergeant in public, and around his subordinates, please call him Sergeant so-and-so.

If the situation warrants it, and I feel so inclined....you did say please though so I'll give it extra consideration

He/she will call you Sir.

You're darn right they will.....

When you are addressing a cadet in public and in front of his/her subordinates, the proper way to address that cadet is by his/her grade which would be Cadet Sergeant or Cadet Colonel.

Negative, Ghostrider.....
The onus is on you right now to quote the regs.

He or she will address you as Sir.

Again we agree

What goes on in private is a whole other issue, but as to set an example of respect for your grade and the cadet's you MUST address them properly.

Correct. The proper address is "cadet".

Having said that, technically there is nothing that says you cannot address a cadet by "Cadet". It is the equivalent of addressing you as "Sailor" (which everyone in the Navy is) or an Air Force General as "Airman" (which everyone in the Air Force is), but... the culture of the services says otherwise and I'd really recommend that you don't address your superiors or subordinates by such a general denomenation. They've earned more than that. That goes for Civil Air Patrol too.

You must be the SECDEF in disguise, Oh I get it now.

I understand that you know how this applies to the Navy; I just want to reiterate that it applies to the Civil Air Patrol just as much.

By what regulation am I obligated to apply....uh, whatever it is you require me to apply and to what?

[sandman]

While I appreciate your willingness to step up and voice your opinion, I suggest you take the extra time to pause and consider your position....You may not realize it but you're on the edge young padawan.

That's not really fair, he's been strong in his opinions, but entirely respectful.

I disagree. On the edge of being disrespectful to an officer. Re-read the cadet's post and you will notice a subtle undertone of disrespect that if not redirected in a positive manner can go from innocuous to a malignant character flaw that could affect his career later in life.

[afgeo4]

Wow... I am completely appalled and surprised that you were able to make Major in Civil Air Patrol and Lieutenant in the US Navy with your apparent lack of customs and courtesies. Must have been oversights on somoene's part.

[ZigZag911]

While I appreciate your willingness to step up and voice your opinion, I suggest you take the extra time to pause and consider your position....You may not realize it but you're on the edge young padawan.

That's not really fair, he's been strong in his opinions, but entirely respectful.

I disagree. On the edge of being disrespectful to an officer. Re-read the cadets post and you will notice a subtle undertone of disrespect that if not redirected in a positive manner can go from innocuous to a malignant character flaw that could affect his career later in life.

Yeah, you're right, on 2nd reading his last post was getting close to the line...however, you have been provoking him to some degree, which, while perhaps within the legalistic bounds of what is permissible, really ought to be avoided in the interests of setting positive tone & example.

[MIKE]

Lock.