Blue Beret Awards

[BlueC/2dLtBeret]

 I just attended Blue Beret 2010 and was wondering exactly what I am now authorized to wear. I got 2 finds, so I know I can wear the find ribbon, but what about the Emergency Services Badge or ES ribbon? thanks for your support on this! C/2d Lt Adams

[jeders]

I just attended Blue Beret 2010 and was wondering exactly what I am now authorized to wear. I got 2 finds, so I know I can wear the find ribbon, but what about the Emergency Services Badge or ES ribbon? thanks for your support on this! C/2d Lt Adams

Assuming that you didn't already have a find ribbon, you get to wear one find ribbon. Depending on the number of sorties you went out on, you may be able to wear the SAR ribbon.

The ES Badge is only for those who have achieved the Tech rating in the ES specialty track, so no.

The ES (Pluto) Patch is authorized if you have GES plus a specialty rating. If you didn't already have this, it still has to be aproved through your chain before you get it.

Other than that, you get to wear your NBB patch on the left breast pocket of your BDUs. You also get the privelage of wearing your regular every-day BDU hat.

[Eclipse]

There is a process to being awarded the Find ribbon - a Personnel Authorization should be issued by the IC.  You receive the ribbon
with your first "Find", but do not put any attachments on it until your 21st find.

The ES badge is a senior-member specialty badge awarded when you complete a specific set of training and staff service.

There is no "ES Ribbon", however what you are probably referring to is the Air Search and Rescue ribbon (which is not only for Air), which may be awarded after completion of 10 sorties on actual missions (not SAREx's).

Both the Find and the SAR will have prop attachments if any of the finds or sorties were done as part of an aircrew.

[Eclipse]

Also, in order to be awarded a "Find", or credited with any actual sorties, you needed to be at least a certified trainee-level in the ES qualification that you expect the award for.

In other words, being a GES-only cadet along for the ride with a qualified team would not get you any ribbons, as you were not
qualified to even be there.

Being a UDF-T or GT-T would qualify you for any awards the team you were with was granted. 

A "Find" is solely at the discretion of the IC of record.

[BlueC/2dLtBeret]

I just attended Blue Beret 2010 and was wondering exactly what I am now authorized to wear. I got 2 finds, so I know I can wear the find ribbon, but what about the Emergency Services Badge or ES ribbon? thanks for your support on this! C/2d Lt Adams

Assuming that you didn't already have a find ribbon, you get to wear one find ribbon. Depending on the number of sorties you went out on, you may be able to wear the SAR ribbon.

The ES Badge is only for those who have achieved the Tech rating in the ES specialty track, so no.

The ES (Pluto) Patch is authorized if you have GES plus a specialty rating. If you didn't already have this, it still has to be aproved through your chain before you get it.

Other than that, you get to wear your NBB patch on the left breast pocket of your BDUs. You also get the privelage of wearing your regular every-day BDU hat.

thank you for the quick response, that cleared up a lot of my questions. I figured you couldnt get the ES badge just from attending (despite what I have been told by others) but cant Cadets earn the badge through an online course?

[BlueC/2dLtBeret]

Also, in order to be awarded a "Find", or credited with any actual sorties, you needed to be at least a certified trainee-level in the ES qualification that you expect the award for.

In other words, being a GES-only cadet along for the ride with a qualified team would not get you any ribbons, as you were not
qualified to even be there.

Being a UDF-T or GT-T would qualify you for any awards the team you were with was granted. 

A "Find" is solely at the discretion of the IC of record.

thanks for your quick response. just so we are on the same page, I am ground team qualified, while we were there, we got 2 finds, which were my first. I only saw that i was updated as FLM on E-Services and was confused as to whether my find would be posted later or if i was just expected to submit that myself. I am guessing now that it will be posted by someone from NBB soon. Thanks again for your help with this matter.

[Hawk200]

I figured you couldnt get the ES badge just from attending (despite what I have been told by others) but cant Cadets earn the badge through an online course?

No. The ES badge is a specialty track badge. There are additional requirements over and above what is needed for the ES patch.

Per CAPR 35-6, 2. a. : "CAP Basic Emergency Services Qualification Badge: Complete all requirements of CAPP 213, Emergency Services Officer-Specialty Track Study Guide, Technician Rating. Note: Cadets can earn the Basic Emergency Services Qualification Badge as they can complete all of the requirements for this rating, though they cannot officially receive the Technician Rating until they become a senior member."

[Eclipse]

Hawk - the ES badge is no longer open to cadets per the KB.

Quoting the KB:

The specialty track awards are a good example. As explained in CAPR 50-17, "CAP Senior Member Professional Development Program," CAP has developed specialty track training programs to prepare a corps of adults to serve in staff positions and contribute to CAP missions. When a senior member earns a technician, senior, or master rating in a specialty track, they become eligible for the corresponding specialty track badge.

But why then can cadets earn the Emergency Services and Communications badges? Those badges (along with the Safety Badge) are the oldest of the specialty badges. There was a time when cadets participating in ES missions had no other form of recognition -- no ground team badge, no EMT badge, etc., like we have today. During this period years ago, CAP policy makers decided that cadets could qualify for the ES and Communications badges, as a way to reward their ES participation. But two years ago, when CAP policy makers added new specialty track badges in the CAP Senior Member Professional Development Program, they did not choose to make another exception that would allow cadets to earn them .

CURT LAFOND | Hq Civil Air Patrol | 334.953.4304
LEAD Team: Leadership, Education, and Development |CAP.gov

[jeders]

thanks for your quick response. just so we are on the same page, I am ground team qualified, while we were there, we got 2 finds, which were my first. I only saw that i was updated as FLM on E-Services and was confused as to whether my find would be posted later or if i was just expected to submit that myself. I am guessing now that it will be posted by someone from NBB soon. Thanks again for your help with this matter.

Only your quals are maintained in e-Services. Your finds/missions/sorties and the associated awards are maintained in your personal personnel file.

Edit to add:

Hawk - the ES badge is no longer open to cadets per the KB.

Quoting the KB:

The specialty track awards are a good example. As explained in CAPR 50-17, "CAP Senior Member Professional Development Program," CAP has developed specialty track training programs to prepare a corps of adults to serve in staff positions and contribute to CAP missions. When a senior member earns a technician, senior, or master rating in a specialty track, they become eligible for the corresponding specialty track badge.

But why then can cadets earn the Emergency Services and Communications badges? Those badges (along with the Safety Badge) are the oldest of the specialty badges. There was a time when cadets participating in ES missions had no other form of recognition -- no ground team badge, no EMT badge, etc., like we have today. During this period years ago, CAP policy makers decided that cadets could qualify for the ES and Communications badges, as a way to reward their ES participation. But two years ago, when CAP policy makers added new specialty track badges in the CAP Senior Member Professional Development Program, they did not choose to make another exception that would allow cadets to earn them .

CURT LAFOND | Hq Civil Air Patrol | 334.953.4304
LEAD Team: Leadership, Education, and Development |CAP.gov

The current R35-6 says cadets can still earn the basic ES badge.

[BlueC/2dLtBeret]

Thank you all for clearing this up for me and for your time. C/ Adams

[Eclipse]

It sounds like someone at your unit has some catching up to do.

Do not assume NBB will take care of any of this - most of this is your unit staff's responsibility based on certifying documents that NBB should provide.

[DakRadz]

Hawk - the ES badge is no longer open to cadets per the KB.

Quoting the KB:

The specialty track awards are a good example. As explained in CAPR 50-17, "CAP Senior Member Professional Development Program," CAP has developed specialty track training programs to prepare a corps of adults to serve in staff positions and contribute to CAP missions. When a senior member earns a technician, senior, or master rating in a specialty track, they become eligible for the corresponding specialty track badge.

But why then can cadets earn the Emergency Services and Communications badges? Those badges (along with the Safety Badge) are the oldest of the specialty badges. There was a time when cadets participating in ES missions had no other form of recognition -- no ground team badge, no EMT badge, etc., like we have today. During this period years ago, CAP policy makers decided that cadets could qualify for the ES and Communications badges, as a way to reward their ES participation. But two years ago, when CAP policy makers added new specialty track badges in the CAP Senior Member Professional Development Program, they did not choose to make another exception that would allow cadets to earn them .

CURT LAFOND | Hq Civil Air Patrol | 334.953.4304
LEAD Team: Leadership, Education, and Development |CAP.gov

Isn't that saying cadet cannot be awarded the new badges which were added?  Also the part saying they did not choose to make *another* exception to those *added*- so the previous exceptions are still in effect, correct?

[jeders]

Hawk - the ES badge is no longer open to cadets per the KB.

Quoting the KB:

The specialty track awards are a good example. As explained in CAPR 50-17, "CAP Senior Member Professional Development Program," CAP has developed specialty track training programs to prepare a corps of adults to serve in staff positions and contribute to CAP missions. When a senior member earns a technician, senior, or master rating in a specialty track, they become eligible for the corresponding specialty track badge.

But why then can cadets earn the Emergency Services and Communications badges? Those badges (along with the Safety Badge) are the oldest of the specialty badges. There was a time when cadets participating in ES missions had no other form of recognition -- no ground team badge, no EMT badge, etc., like we have today. During this period years ago, CAP policy makers decided that cadets could qualify for the ES and Communications badges, as a way to reward their ES participation. But two years ago, when CAP policy makers added new specialty track badges in the CAP Senior Member Professional Development Program, they did not choose to make another exception that would allow cadets to earn them .

CURT LAFOND | Hq Civil Air Patrol | 334.953.4304
LEAD Team: Leadership, Education, and Development |CAP.gov

Isn't that saying cadet cannot be awarded the new badges which were added?

That's how I read it.

[Eclipse]

You're right, in fact the first line of the KB says exactly that - cadets can still earn ES and Comms badges.

[Krapenhoeffer]

And Cadets can earn the IT badge, at least according to CAPP 227.

[MICT1362]

C/2d Lt Adams,

Because I know your NBB TAC, I asked her a couple of questions to be able to give you the best possible answer.  Since attending NBB in 2010 you had 2 finds (which you already knew) so you can wear the Find Ribbon.  You participated in 4 sorties which is not enough to be awarded the SAR ribbon.  You are also authorized to wear the NCSA ribbon.  If this wasn't your first NCSA then you would add a device instead of another ribbon. 

Other than that, you get to wear your NBB patch on the left breast pocket of your BDUs. You also get the privilege of wearing your regular every-day BDU hat.

And correct and incorrect.  The patch portion of this statement is correct, the BDU cover part is incorrect.  You are authorized to wear your Beret in BDU's only.  However, use the same discretion as you did at the activity.  That means, no berets on "duty stations", or in the field.  Other than that, you are able to wear it at meetings and other times you would wear BDU's.  If you have other questions about NBB, I would suggest contacting your TAC or other beret staff.

-Paramedic

[Майор Хаткевич]

Other than that, you are able to wear it at meetings and other times you would wear BDU's.

At the discretion of the unit commander that is.

[MICT1362]

Negative.  The policy letter put out by NHQ authorizes the wear of the Blue Beret, Ranger Tab, and "Dog dish" in the BDU cover while in the BDU uniform.  They removed the verbage of commander discretion. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Negative.  The policy letter put out by NHQ authorizes the wear of the Blue Beret, Ranger Tab, and "Dog dish" in the BDU cover while in the BDU uniform.  They removed the verbage of commander discretion. 

You have a cite for that?

To show that I did my homework:
Not one of the 4 ICLs in the past 2 years mentions anything regarding these items, nor removing command authority.
Nothing in CAPM 39-1 does anything of the like either.

The only information regarding any one of those "doodads" was mentioned some 4 years ago, pending AF approval, of which we heard nothing about for the past two years. Nothing about this awful fashion statement "dog bowl/dog dish/ranger roll/rain collector" has been mentioned in anything official that I've read or seen in the past 7 years.

[Eclipse]

Negative.  The policy letter put out by NHQ authorizes the wear of the Blue Beret, Ranger Tab, and "Dog dish" in the BDU cover while in the BDU uniform.  They removed the verbage of commander discretion.

Nope.  Unit and activity commanders always have the authority to prescribe or prohibit a given uniform or uniform item.

CC's cannot mandate a cadet wear an item not issued, but they certainly can tell them to leave non-standard items at home.
I'd be real curious where you think a dog dish has ever been authorized, since its has never even been discussed, and just to be clear, there is no existing ICL regarding berets or HMRS bling on the USAF combos - the only comment is 2 sentences from a 2006 meeting that has never been mentioned or addressed since.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Negative.  The policy letter put out by NHQ authorizes the wear of the Blue Beret, Ranger Tab, and "Dog dish" in the BDU cover while in the BDU uniform.  They removed the verbage of commander discretion.

Nope.

I'd even follow up this unknown memo, by saying that removal of verbiage does not equate to removal of authority.

[MICT1362]

My apologies for citing an ICL.  Here, however, is a cite.  Far more than two sentences, and as you can plainly see they did take out the part about discretion...


August 2006 National Board Minutes (Pg 50)

4. ITEM: Wear of Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain Uniforms & Devices

COL FAGAN/MO MOVED AND COL LEVITCH/FL SECONDED that the National
Board vote to allow wear of the Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain head gear by
cadets and senior members on both the BDUs and dress uniform.

COL NELSON/CA MOVED TO AMEND AND COL OPLAND/DE SECONDED the
amendment to allow wear of both activity head gear only on BDUs.

MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED

COL DAVIES/NATCAP MOVED TO AMEND AND COL FAGAN/MO SECONDED the
amendment to allow wear of head gear at the discretion of wing commanders.

MOTION DID NOT PASS

MAJ GEN PINEDA RESTATED THE AMENDED MOTION: The members can wear
the head gear that they get at Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with their blue BDUs
and green BDUs only.

COL LEVITCH/FL MOVED TO AMEND AND COL APPLEBAUM/PA SECONDED the
amendment to allow the wear of any awarded items that go on the uniform or the
head from Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with BDUs only.

MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED

COL OPLAND/DE MOVED TO AMEND to allow wear of any distinctive head gear
awarded at any national special cadet activities.

MOTION TO AMEND DIED FOR LACK OF A SECOND

ANOTHER RESTATEMENT OF THE AMENDED MOTION: All members that attend
the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items
that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green.

AMENDED MOTION CARRIED

FOLLOW-ON ACTION: National Headquarters implementation of policy, notification to
the field and change to appropriate CAP regulations.

[Eclipse]

...and as you can plainly see they did take out the part about discretion...

Where...

[MICT1362]

[

COL DAVIES/NATCAP MOVED TO AMEND AND COL FAGAN/MO SECONDED the
amendment to allow wear of head gear at the discretion of wing commanders.

MOTION DID NOT PASS

How about right there.... Or does that not clear it up enough?

[NCRblues]

"COL DAVIES/NATCAP MOVED TO AMEND AND COL FAGAN/MO SECONDED the
amendment to allow wear of head gear at the discretion of wing commanders.

MOTION DID NOT PASS"

and in your words eclipse "DUH"

[arajca]

Note 1 to Table 1-1, CAPM 39-1

The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type
for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national
functions. However, all commanders must be mindful of the objective of attaining a neatly
uniformed appearance at a minimum of personal expense to the individual member and will
consequently refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements.

The unit commander CAN say all members in bdus will wear the patrol cap to unit meetings.

[Майор Хаткевич]

FOLLOW-ON ACTION: National Headquarters implementation of policy, notification to
the field and change to appropriate CAP regulations.

This never took place. Further memos came out stating the need for AF approval of the changes, which has had no traction in more than two years. There is nothing out of NHQ on the proper wear of any mentioned items.

Squadron commanders can still dictate what uniform will be worn at the local level. So can activity commanders. What I see was defeated was the option for a Wing commander to have complete discretion on the subject.

P.S. I got signed out and arajca beat me to it.

[NCRblues]

If we want to go down that road, than every single person wearing the TPU is in violation of regs because the air force never gave the thumbs up....ever...and ill go ahead and just say it, cite it if they did. (because they did not)

[Майор Хаткевич]

If we want to go down that road, than every single person wearing the TPU is in violation of regs because the air force never gave the thumbs up....ever...and ill go ahead and just say it, cite it if they did. (because they did not)

Apples and Oranges, but you just like being a PITA it seems Sir.

That's a Corporate Uniform, that DID get AF input - that's why it's on the way out.

Approval of wear on the AF uniform of anything new requires AF input.

[NCRblues]

Prove to me the AF put input in on it....CITE PLEASE

I also seem to remember TONS of people on here arguing to keep the CSU, so its ok to say we can tell the AF to shove it on one uniform aspect because you like it, but not on the beret because you dont like it?

[MICT1362]

This never took place. Further memos came out stating the need for AF approval of the changes, which has had no traction in more than two years. 

Can you produce these memos?

[jeders]

Prove to me the AF put input in on it....CITE PLEASE

I also seem to remember TONS of people on here arguing to keep the CSU, so its ok to say we can tell the AF to shove it on one uniform aspect because you like it, but not on the beret because you dont like it?

Corporate uniforms don't require the AF approval that the AF-style uniforms do. This is also why the beret isn't authorized outside of NBB and the boonie isn't authorized in AF-style BDUs.

This never took place. Further memos came out stating the need for AF approval of the changes, which has had no traction in more than two years. 

Can you produce these memos?

How about right here, paragraph 2.

[NCRblues]

All uniform changes must have AF approval now, including corporate because of the CSU TPU incident....

[MICT1362]

I have seen your memo, which does not specify any specific items.  It simply says some items...

[arajca]

I also seem to remember TONS of people on here arguing to keep the CSU, so its ok to say we can tell the AF to shove it on one uniform aspect because you like it, but not on the beret because you dont like it?

Many people were (and are) arguing for keeping the CSU, however, no one is saying to wear it after the phase out date. People are not telling the AF to shove it in regards to the CSU - it is still authorized for a few more months - they want to AF to change its decision, but will honor the current decision, regardless of our personal opinion. This is markedly different from those wanting to wear the blue cowpie beret regardless of what anyone in the chain of command says.

[Eclipse]

NCR and MICT - the follow up ICL's to these issues are easily accessible on NHQ's site and have been beaten to death here before.

The "discretion" above is whether a wing cc chooses to allow it, not removing the local CC's authority to prescribe or prohibit certain uniform items.

The other arguments are just making noise to try and argue other places the regs have issues - yes, they are a mess, we get that, but thanks for the reminder.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I have seen your memo, which does not specify any specific items.  It simply says some items...

Were you around between 2006-2008?

2. Several other uniform proposals were approved but require the approval of the Air
Force before implementation. When this approval is received these items will be
announced. The items listed above will be incorporated into the next revision of CAPM
39-1.

IS in regards to the Beret and Whistles, because that was the time when NHQ was being bombarded with questions on the minutes you posted a few posts up. Note also that the ICL is quite a bit after the 2006 initial approval, but right when the NatCC was still Interim.

[CadetProgramGuy]

ANOTHER RESTATEMENT OF THE AMENDED MOTION: All members that attend
the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items
that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green.

AMENDED MOTION CARRIED

FOLLOW-ON ACTION: National Headquarters implementation of policy, notification to
the field and change to appropriate CAP regulations.

[Eclipse]

^Which is the key and final statement, and a total of two sentences.

[MICT1362]

Were you around between 2006-2008? 

Uh, yes. In fact I was.

[Pace]

There are several questions that must be answered before this discussion can be concluded.  Some are concrete/have been addressed by NHQ.  Some have not been directly addressed by NHQ, regarding specifically NBB/HMRS in this instance.

1. Must the Air Force approve ALL items on the air force-style uniform?  If not, where is the line drawn?  By who? Cite?
[This one is obvious]

2. Does a ruling of the NB/NEC constitute an immediate policy change that may be acted upon, or must an official memo citing this change be published to all members? Or must the regulation itself be amended (are ICLs legit?)?
[This is the gray area that will settle this "discussion"]

3. Does para 2 of CAPM 39-1 ICL 2, dated 1 April 2008 apply to the NB ruling regarding wear of the blue beret?
[Two points of view here: 1) Refer to question #1; and 2) Many preceding proposals cited requiring Air Force approval specifically and were then not heard of again until the mention that Air Force approval was still pending on several previously sought-after uniform items.  I remind you that the NBB/HMRS item did not have such a statement in the meeting minutes as many other proposed items did]

4. Was question 3 left ambiguous on purpose by NHQ???

And one final note, everyone please review the membership code of conduct before I have to smite the with my dark s'member powers.
Prease

[MICT1362]

Agree.

Noted.

And is there anyway that we can get an "Escuse Me" light to mark this thread and others like it?

[Pace]

I could put some blinking lights up, but trust me no matter how many threads about berets I did that to every year someone will come in and ask the same question and start the process all over again.

[MICT1362]

Oh, I don't care about the question.  I just want the light! :clap:

[Pace]

There ya go.  Original post edited

[DakRadz]

I scrolled up and nearly had a heart attack.

Very effective Major!

Now we can go a few months without another of these discussions, perhaps?

[MICT1362]

 :clap:YOU ARE MY HERO! :clap:

[Pace]

It's so [darn]ed shiny!!!

[NCRblues]

Do you know what im talking about??

[Pace]

*tweeker voice* What, you wanna get high? */tweeker*

[Eclipse]

Awesome.

[FW]

I love the lights...

Anyway, I'll attempt to answer these deep insightful questions.

1. The Air Force MUST approve all uniform items on the Air Force style uniforms; BDU's included.  (letter to Board of Governors 2006 from CSAF)
2. Once the NB/NEC or BoG sets the policy.  The policy is immediately implemented.  This has been the standard of practice for years
3. Yes however, wear of head gear is different than wearing badges/patches on the uniform.  The last time the NB visited this issue, the board recognized this (see ans. 1)
To date, the Air Force has not given approval for wear of the patches on the BDU. They are still only authorized for wear on the BBDU.  Exception is the BB patch and HMRS "LL" patch.
4. Of course.  Or else we wouldn't have anything to discuss here on CT...

[Pace]

I was really hoping this would have died with the blinky lights, but no.

1. The Air Force MUST approve all uniform items on the Air Force style uniforms; BDU's included.  (letter to Board of Governors 2006 from CSAF)

That letter is super, but the authority is derived from AFI 10-2701 (29 July 2005) 1.3.1, 1.3.2, and 1.4 (specifically 1.4.3 and 1.4.4):

1.3.1. CAP Grade. CAP uses military style grade for its membership at the discretion and approval of the Air Force. CAP officer or noncommissioned officer grade does not confer commissioned or noncommissioned officer status. CAP personnel have no authority over members of the armed forces. CAP members who are active, reserve, and retired members of the armed forces will be treated according to their CAP status when acting in a CAP capacity. The Air Force has authority over the CAP grade structure.

1.3.2. Uniform Wear and Personal Appearance. CAP members are authorized to wear CAP or Air Force-style uniforms in accordance with CAP regulations (civilian clothing may be worn when specific missions dictate). The Air Force controls the configuration of the Air Force-style uniform worn by CAP members.

1.4. Air Force Authority and Control. By law, the SECAF, or his designee, may regulate and impose limitations on CAP.

Title 10 US Code, Subtitle D, Part III, Chapter 909, § 9448:
(a) Authority.— The Secretary of the Air Force shall prescribe regulations for the administration of this chapter.

FYI - Chapter 909 covers CAP's status as both a federally chartered corporation and as the civilian auxiliary to the Air Force.

1.4.3. CAP Corporate Activities. The Air Force will usually only regulate and oversee those corporate activities that are supported by appropriated funds, use assets procured with appropriated funds, or involve matters where CAP's activities could give the appearance of endorsement of the action by the Air Force or could be detrimental to the Federal government.

1.4.4. Regulations. The Air Force, through CAP-USAF/CC, has authority to review and approve CAP's corporate regulations, policies, plans, and programs that govern Air Force-assigned missions and CAP's use of Federally-provided resources, prior to implementation by CAP. CAP regulations, policies, plans, and programs shall not be construed as authority to conduct missions not otherwise authorized under this Instruction or to deviate from procedures set forth herein.

I was going to spend more time picking those apart, but it's clear enough that the SECAF has absolute authority over all things regarding the Air Force-style uniform (and pretty much everything else if the Secretary wants).

2. Once the NB/NEC or BoG sets the policy.  The policy is immediately implemented.  This has been the standard of practice for years

Standard of practice is a fancy way of stating "that's the way we've always done it", which is a far cry from "this is what is written and approved in regulations."

Article XX of the CAP Constitution and Bylaws
1. To further the orderly administration of the activities, business and affairs of the Corporation, the National Commander shall establish and maintain regulations which shall be applicable to all members of Civil Air Patrol. These regulations will be based on policies established by the Board of Governors,National Board, CAP-USAF, or law.

Yes, those entities do establish policies; however, those policies then have to be transcribed into regulations which are applicable to all CAP member.  The CAP/CC does have the authority to establish emergency regulations under these conditions:

Article XX of the CAP Constitution and Bylaws
3. The National Commander, upon declaration of a situation requiring immediate action due to a state of emergency or an unforeseen circumstance involving the preservation of life or property, may promulgate emergency regulations without the ratification of a majority vote of the National Board. Such emergency regulation shall remain in force unless revoked by a majority vote of the National Board.

Further, CAPR 5-4 authorizes the issuance of Interim Change Letters; however, their purpose and timeframe are very specific:

4. Interim Change Letters (ICL). Situations requiring immediate action due to a state of emergency, an unforeseen circumstance involving the preservation of life or property, or other contingencies that may require prompt action may result in an interim change letter being issued outlining immediate policies. ICLs may be issued by any level of command unless specifically limited or prohibited by the regulation or manual governing that subject matter. Issuance of policies by ICL is a temporary measure.
a. ICLs outlining immediate policies to be followed for a limited time will be issued with
a stated expiration date. Such expiration dates shall not be more than 180 days from the date the letter was issued.
b. ICLs outlining immediate policies that are intended to become permanent shall be incorporated into an appropriate publication within 90 days of the date the letter was issued.

I would submit that uniform policies do not qualify for the issuance of an ICL in the first place; and secondly, that all current uniform-related ICLs are null and void due to the amount of time that has lapsed since their questionable issuance.  By our own regulations, I could pull my reverse American flag off all my BDUs and be within the established/prescribed standards as set forth by the CAP regulations and manuals.

Further, CAPR 5-4 specifically defines manuals and regulations in this way:

f. "Manuals" announce procedures and guidance for performing standard tasks and usually contain examples.
l. "Regulations" announce policies, direct actions and prescribe standards.

Nowhere are meeting minutes specified as a venue to announce policies, procedures, or guidance.

3. Yes however, wear of head gear is different than wearing badges/patches on the uniform.  The last time the NB visited this issue, the board recognized this (see ans. 1)

Negative.  Once more, as authorized and enforcable by US Code:

AFI 10-2701:
1.3.2. Uniform Wear and Personal Appearance. CAP members are authorized to wear CAP or Air Force-style uniforms in accordance with CAP regulations (civilian clothing may be worn when specific missions dictate). The Air Force controls the configuration of the Air Force-style uniform worn by CAP members.

To date, the Air Force has not given approval for wear of the patches on the BDU.

If you are referring to the ranger tab patches, I concur as evidenced by not being in CAPM 39-1 or even one of the expired ICLs.  Similarly, there is no evidence that the NBB beret is authorized (outside the activity) per CAPM 39-1 or an expired supplement.

They are still only authorized for wear on the BBDU.  Exception is the BB patch and HMRS "LL" patch.

The way 10 US Code Chapter 909 is written, the SECAF could regulate the corporate uniforms as well if the uniform(s) incorporates military grade, will be used on AFAMs, cause the "appearance of endorsement of the action [of CAP] by the Air Force", or if the uniform's presence in certain situations "could be detrimental to the Federal government" (for example, a cadet in BBDUs and beret holding someone hostage - extreme, unlikely, and so far fringe it's barely logical to suggest, but the clause is still there).

You are correct in assuming that, at this time, the Air Force has not chosen to involve itself in CAP's corporate uniforms other than to dictate that Air Force ribbons and badges are not permitted on corporate uniforms.

[arajca]

You are correct in assuming that, at this time, the Air Force has not chosen to involve itself in CAP's corporate uniforms other than to dictate that Air Force ribbons and badges are not permitted on corporate uniforms.

Three letters: CSU
The AF has gotten more involved than just prohibiting the wear of military ribbons and badges.

[Pace]

Very true, but I meant the corporate uniforms that are in CAPM 39-1.  I just didn't state that very well.

[FW]

Daniel, thanks for filling in the details to my (semi serious) response.  The Air Force has final say on all our uniforms; even corporate.  However, they have not objected to the NBB patch or HMRS patch on the BDU's since they qualify for wear as per standards in the existing (but way out of date) CAPM 39-1.  Ranger tabs and other such "bling" is not.  We are still waiting for AF approval.  The AF has not objected to any "bling wear" on CAP distinctive unitforms to date. 
As to policies and regulations. Article XX is quite clear however, when the BoG or NEC or NB votes to allow a patch to be worn.  That patch is allowed to be worn the next day.   It's one of the reasons CAPM 39-1 is way out of date.   Uniform issues are CAP's favorite pastime...

[Pace]

We're on the same page on most things.  I disagree with your interpretation of Article XX and CAPR 5-4; however, I'm neither in a position of implementing/enforcing regulations, nor do I care enough to continue arguing.

[Patterson]

Perhaps a Wing Commander needs to take this to the meeting next Month.  Get a CLEAR and FINAL answer.  Enough of all this 3 answers for every question" crap. 

It is 2010.  Take these questions and get them answered.  If I were a Corporate Officer, I would be happy to press this issue, but I am not, and it seems like all of them are too scared to ask these questions for some reason.

We also need 1 (one) authority on uniform changes.  Ms Parker, General Courter, Wing Commanders, Region Commanders, Vanguard all seem to do what they want and never get together and have a single voice.  I am tired of learning about changes from CAPTALK, or the CAP Knowledge-base when we should just be able to open up the national Website (one national website please) and see what has changed.

Does anyone remember the 1980's and 1990's when all the changes were written into the CAP NEWS and each Squadron Commander got updates in the mail.

Well, post the changes online, email the info to all members.  How hard is that?

We have way more important things to answer than uniform questions that could have been finalized YEARS AGO. 

[FW]

Daniel, to tell you the truth, we are exactly in agreement.  It's just not that important for me to continue swimming against the current for uniform issues.  However, it's a slow day here in the mines and, I've got little else to do today except raise my post count...

[Ned]

As to policies and regulations. Article XX is quite clear however, when the BoG or NEC or NB votes to allow a patch to be worn.  That patch is allowed to be worn the next day.   

Sir,

The lawyer in me does not think it is all that clear.

Assuming you agree with me that Article XX confirms that the NB/NEC are "policy setting bodies," and the National Commander is responsible for establishing the regulations to implement the NB/NEC policies, I'm not sure it follows that "once the BoG/NEC/NB votes to allow a patch to be worn . . . [that the patch] is allowed to be worn the next day."

1.  Allowing the BoG/NB/NEC to dive down into the weeds and declare the wearing of certain patches as "policy" essentially eliminates any difference between "policy" and "regulation" . 

Most dictionaries define "policy" as "a plan of action" or a "prcedure of general applicability."

Picking and choosing specific patches or insignia sounds a lot more like regulations (or even tiny portions of a regulation) - which appear to be the province of the National Commander.  It doesn't sound like policy to me, anyway.

2.  Members are bound by regulation to obey regulations.  I can't find anything that suggests that individual members are required to obey policies not codified in regulations.  This problem is compounded when the policy in question is not publicized in a way that a typical member can be presumed to notice in the course of their duties.

3.  I certainly agree that for many years (up until the last year or so under General Courter's guidance) it has been the practice of the NB/NEC to debate, wordsmith, and finally vote on specific regulations.  This appears problematic in light of our C&BL, but as long as the final regulation goes out under the authority of the National Commander, it is probably OK.  It's as if the NB were to say "We set the policy; General Courter does the regulations.  Today, our policy is that you establish CAPR XX-XXX as we give it to you word for word."

Bottom line, reasonable minds can differ as to whether or not a NB resolution carries the force of a regulation and as to when - if ever - it is effective.

And having said that, we can all agree that we are still in substantial need of a new 39-1.

But I worry about the fate of CAPTalk if we were somehow to resolve all outstanding uniform issues.  Whatever would we talk about?

[FW]

^ Details, details, details.... why must CT posts deal with details....  For this stuff, I'm going with the flow from now on.  Uniform issue discussions are like pulling teeth (one subject I know something about)...  

BTW, Ned, I think we need not worry about the fate of Cap Talk, even if all uniform issues were magically settled, there would be banter about the facts.  It's what makes this "can't miss TV CT"