CAP AF Wear Uniform Weight Standards to Liberal?

[RADIOMAN015]

Looking at:  http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/M39_1_atchs.pdf, I meet the AF standards for wearing the AF military type uniforms using the  and not the CAP standard.  HOWEVER, Interstingly though my physician tells me that he'd like to see me loose about 15 lbs  .

Now folks I cannot imagine what I would look like in a AF style uniform if I were at the maximum weight allowed by the CAP modified standard as is listed in the table above.  I don't think it would look very professional

Perhaps CAP (as well as CAP-USAF) needs to reassess what members that are over the AF standard really look like when in a AF style uniform, but yet meet the CAP weight standard? :angel:

RM   

[davidsinn]

How about no. The weight standards are stupid any way. They should be something that takes into account body fat as muscle is heavier per volume than fat.

[Spike]

Radio......Again you are stirring the pot with this issue.  We all know you don't like any CAP Member wearing anything that even remotely resembles a military uniform.

Please, for the sake of everyones sanity......stop.  We ALL know your position!!!!!

This is a properly formated link by the way for what you posted...... http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/M39_1_atchs.pdf
OR  CLICK ME

You do understand that Air Force members are allowed to be heavier than what that table states right?  They have alternate methods of measurement. 

[RADIOMAN015]

Radio......Again you are stirring the pot with this issue.  We all know you don't like any CAP Member wearing anything that even remotely resembles a military uniform.

Please, for the sake of everyones sanity......stop.  We ALL know your position!!!!!

You do understand that Air Force members are allowed to be heavier than what that table states right?  They have alternate methods of measurement.

Overall I do not believe the leadership in CAP is willing to take a tough enough stand on telling members wearing AF type uniforms that they do not meet the standard to wear those uniforms, especially when weight is involved.

The members wearing the AF type uniforms really don't feel they are doing anything wrong if they stretch the CAP standard a bit (a bit is in the eyes of the beholder).  In fact they may even offer an apology that they are working on loosing the weight to get back into standards.  (BTW I guess I must show it in my facial expression when I encounter them, I do not want to embarrass them, because I do know they are "dedicated" members).   The challenge some of them have is they really don't have the funds to go out and buy all the "corporate" type uniforms.  In alot of circumstances they were able to get the AF style uniforms for free or at a very low cost at thrift shops when compared with buying the alternative.

BTW if the AF has an alternative method for weight standards compliance, shouldn't CAP be adopting the same alternative measurement standard also?

Of course, I wouldn't dare mention the very marginal to unsatisfactory haircut/hairdo standards, that are also exhibited by senior members in AF style uniforms .

Yes it is unforunate that some of you get offended when ever there's a discussion that the AF style uniform might just go away for senior members.  I don't think it will, BUT get too many volunteers ignoring the standards and the USAF just might force the issues --  food for thought by everyone
RM

[Hawk200]

BTW if the AF has an alternative method for weight standards compliance, shouldn't CAP be adopting the same alternative measurement standard also?

Sure, why not? Now, how many medical professionals are in your unit? Someone who is a nurse, maybe a dietician/nutritionist, or a doctor? Because body fat analysis is a task squarely within the realm of the medical profession. You may not have an issue with just anyone pawing you, but you're not touching me unless it's for a medical evaluation that you've been trained for.

Don't even start any argument to the effect of "Well, anyone can do the calculations". That's not even the issue. The point is that people don't need to be making such personal and private contact with anyone else, unless they are medically trained personnel with valid reason to do so.

Of course, I wouldn't dare mention the very marginal to unsatisfactory haircut/hairdo standards, that are also exhibited by senior members in AF style uniforms .

An issue which there is truly no excuse for. I can understand someone being a few pounds over because of holiday indulgence, but a haircut is something that can fixed on any weekday. It can take a few weeks to lose five pounds, it doesn't to get hair chopped.

But, as to the original question: are weight standards too liberal? Don't know. Seen a few people that were within them, they looked fine. Body fat measurements would really only be useful in the case of a lot of your body builders that have extremely low body fat. Most of the people I knew in the Air Force that were overweight and demanded body fat measurements failed them. If you're overweight and look like a chunky chicken, body fat calc is most likely not going to support your interests. It's smarter not to even try to wave that flag.

[RiverAux]

While the military has their own reasons for weight standards, it is very clear that the AF's only concern is with how CAP members look in uniform.  That is always going to be very subjective.  If CAP's standards were only 5 pounds over the AF, I'm sure someone would be this board talking about all the fat CAP members out there making the AF look bad.

As I've pointed out several times on this board, the weight standards that CAP members must adhere to in order to wear AF-style uniforms just happen to be almost the same as the break point between "Overweight" and "Obese" in various Body Mass Index systems.  While I know this wasn't intentional as BMI and these categories hadn't been invented back when these standards went into effect, they seem to be a somewhat logical way to approach this issue.  Or at least as logical as just adding 10% to the AF limits, which is how it was done.

So, as long as we have to have some system to judge worthiness to wear the AF style, our current system is good enough. 

[Hawk200]

While the military has their own reasons for weight standards, it is very clear that the AF's only concern is with how CAP members look in uniform.  That is always going to be very subjective.  If CAP's standards were only 5 pounds over the AF, I'm sure someone would be this board talking about all the fat CAP members out there making the AF look bad.

As I've pointed out several times on this board, the weight standards that CAP members must adhere to in order to wear AF-style uniforms just happen to be almost the same as the break point between "Overweight" and "Obese" in various Body Mass Index systems.  While I know this wasn't intentional as BMI and these categories hadn't been invented back when these standards went into effect, they seem to be a somewhat logical way to approach this issue.  Or at least as logical as just adding 10% to the AF limits, which is how it was done.

So, as long as we have to have some system to judge worthiness to wear the AF style, our current system is good enough.

Seems to be the simplest way.

If a person is 20 pounds over, but has the "Adonis" proportions, I wouldn't really worry about their weight. But the person with a waist measurement eight inches over their chest one is probably not going to meet standards.

On the military side, there are just some uniforms not generally available in some sizes. I remember being in a military clothing one time when a retiree came in. He asked the rep there if he could get Army officer pants in a size 48 waist, and got miffed when she told him no, he was probably going to have to get something like that custom tailored and it wasn't a common size. I don't think he heard me snicker at the question.

[cap235629]

I don't think he heard me snicker at the question.

Good thing because you acted like an insulting jerk.  That man you were snickering at gave this country 20 years of his life and EARNED the right to wear that uniform.

[Hawk200]

Good thing because you acted like an insulting jerk.  That man you were snickering at gave this country 20 years of his life and EARNED the right to wear that uniform.

He may have served his country, but there's nothing amusing about that. My amusement was that he was mad about the fact that he couldn't get size 48 pants. Show me some readily available in that size.

I didn't insult his service in any way, shape or form. Glad he served, but I found it amusing that he thought he could buy a set of pants that size off the rack. The Army had weight standards too, and he was in a severe excess of them.

[cap235629]

Good thing because you acted like an insulting jerk.  That man you were snickering at gave this country 20 years of his life and EARNED the right to wear that uniform.

He may have served his country, but there's nothing amusing about that. My amusement was that he was mad about the fact that he couldn't get size 48 pants. Show me some readily available in that size.

I didn't insult his service in any way, shape or form. Glad he served, but I found it amusing that he thought he could buy a set of pants that size off the rack. The Army had weight standards too, and he was in a severe excess of them.

You insulted HIM. You made a snap judgment as to whether he meets weight standards when in fact he is NOT required to meet them and is ENTITLED by his status as a retiree to wear the uniform.

One of our cadets just received a pair of 48 trousers through the FCU program.  I would love for anyone in our squadron to hear you snicker at him, you would promptly be shown the door.

[Hawk200]

You insulted HIM. You made a snap judgment as to whether he meets weight standards when in fact he is NOT required to meet them and is ENTITLED by his status as a retiree to wear the uniform.

No, I did not. He may be entitled by his status to wear it, but it doesn't mean that it has to be made available in his size. And considering that he was probably 5'8" (shorter than me) with a size 48 waist, I know full well he wasn't even remotely close to Army weight standard. No "judgement" to be made, it was pretty cut and dried.

One of our cadets just received a pair of 48 trousers through the FCU program.  I would love for anyone in our squadron to hear you snicker at him, you would promptly be shown the door.

Cadets are a completely different issue. I have never laughed at a cadet overweight, and never will. A soldier, even retired, knows better. A few pounds overweight is one thing, but obese is another.

You can try to paint me with an evil brush all you wish, but I'm not going to stand still for it. Manufacturing a hypothetical situation, and then inserting me into it with your thoughts of what I'd do is simple fantasy on your part.

You don't like the fact that I hold military members to a standard, deal with it. I'm not changing. I'm not the only one who laughed it, and a retired soldier should have known better than to even ask. You want to be mad about something, find another scapegoat, I'm not gonna be it.

[Spike]

No, I did not. He may be entitled by his status to wear it, but it doesn't mean that it has to be made available in his size. And considering that he was probably 5'8" (shorter than me) with a size 48 waist, I know full well he wasn't even remotely close to Army weight standard. No "judgement" to be made, it was pretty cut and dried.

A retired Officer has earned the privilege to wear the uniform of their service at their pleasure.  I don't care if the man was 500 pounds, how dare you judge him in any manner based on your "personal standards" for military members.  Shame on you.  Perhaps one day you will realize that a persons actions and merits outweigh how much they weigh.

I am guessing you are a skinny guy, because a heavy guy would hardly say what you did. 

You don't like the fact that I hold military members to a standard, deal with it. I'm not changing. I'm not the only one who laughed it, and a retired soldier should have known better than to even ask. You want to be mad about something, find another scapegoat, I'm not gonna be it.

Wow.....are you a currently serving military member?  Have you served?  Are you an elected official that has oversight of the Military?
You should be ashamed of youself.  They absolutely make Army Officer pants (both Green and Blue) up to size 56.  It may not be in local stock, but the AAFES clerk could have ordered it for him, so I really think you made the story up.

So you laughed, and others laughed.  How dare you laugh at a person who served their country.  We do not need people like you in CAP.  I am glad you are not in my Squadron, I would ask you to take your "standards" and snide remarks some place else. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

A soldier, even retired, knows better. A few pounds overweight is one thing, but obese is another.

Wow, just wow.

I know a SM who did time in the USMC and in the AF. He is overweight, but now is a very active member of CAP.

Do you know WHY he is overweight? While in the USMC, he was in a Humvee crash that left him with a damaged spine. Naturally, with age it became worse and even if he wanted to loose the weight via increased physical activity it's just impossible for him.

Who the hell are you to judge how or why someone is overweight? I'm overweight, and I'm young without any health issues. That's my problem and my fault. I'm working on my weight and I CAN loose it, but to judge anyone who served and potentially/most likely has a weight problem due to a health condition they inherited from their service is just complete crap.

[Mustang]

Don't feed the trolls, people.

[sarmed1]

Overall I do not believe the leadership in CAP is willing to take a tough enough stand on telling members wearing AF type uniforms that they do not meet the standard to wear those uniforms, especially when weight is involved.

Why should they...even the Air Force turns a blind eye to it.  Speaking strictly from the reserve side its more about how you look in the uniform.  They ony time you get weighed is PT test and physical exam. The only time anyone says "bad" if you excede the "weight standard" is inital entry.

I have been in my current unit for 2 years now, there are at least 4 people that I can think of off the top of my head that look "huge" in uniform; they have been there since I came into the unit.  No LOC, LOR or article 15.  1 is on the mandatory PT program...but because failing PT test, not because he is "fat.

Because body fat analysis is a task squarely within the realm of the medical profession.

In the AF it would seem so; when I was on the Army side, anyone could tape you.  Its not a complicated procedure...follow the directions; record the numbers, reference the chart=body fat percentage

I too would find it "funny" that anyone would become upset because they expect to find a size 48 in service dress on the rack.... not funny that they are overweight; funny that they think every hole in the wall MC just keeps everysize and item laying around in case the 1 in 100000 people want that one thing....get a grip. 



mk

[Platelet]

I have been in my current unit for 2 years now, there are at least 4 people that I can think of off the top of my head that look "huge" in uniform; they have been there since I came into the unit.  No LOC, LOR or article 15.  1 is on the mandatory PT program...but because failing PT test, not because he is "fat.

Because body fat analysis is a task squarely within the realm of the medical profession.

In the AF it would seem so; when I was on the Army side, anyone could tape you.  Its not a complicated procedure...follow the directions; record the numbers, reference the chart=body fat percentage

I too would find it "funny" that anyone would become upset because they expect to find a size 48 in service dress on the rack.... not funny that they are overweight; funny that they think every hole in the wall MC just keeps everysize and item laying around in case the 1 in 100000 people want that one thing....get a grip. 

mk

Mk

You have not been to clothing sales since you got those TSGT stripes for sew on?
You can EASILY find size 52 AF Blues Coats  ON THE RACK these days.

Size 46 trousers, yep they are there.

Size 18 1/2 or 19" Collared shirts, present and correct.

As for ABUs (and Army ACUs for that matter, but they come in XXL) they come in up to size 50 in jackets and 46 in pants.
Times have changed from the days when my XXL BDUs were a "Custom Order". BTW the new ACU in XXL is a tent even on my big body, what does that tell you.

This is ALL obviously for the non-existent plus sized members of the force.

As for weight, I am over, but normally have taped under when BMI (Body Mass Index) was done.

People achieve the shape they need for the job they do, the military ( any branch!) is no exception to that rule.
Now if I we were out every morning for PT and Road Marches you would see a different military (example; how many "FAT" 11B do you see out there).

Platelet

[Rotorhead]

Yes it is unforunate that some of you get offended when ever there's a discussion that the AF style uniform might just go away for senior members.

What's unfortunate is that you dislike so much about CAP and keep coming here to tell us all about it.

[sarmed1]

Having them there and expecting them to be there are two differant things.  I had to have my service coat custom ordered (and tailored) because they didnt have a size in stock to fit my shoulders, and I was well under weight and BMI standard.  There is a huge variance in what you will find both by item type and size variation from one MCSS to the next. 


mk

[heliodoc]

You know all this back and forth about RADIO's like or dislike of CAP is immaterial

In the last 10 years CAP has made ALOT of decisions that really are incoherent and really not even close to the RM in decision making

For those who want to defend the organization....fine

For those of us who left CAP and came back....no real change...just more griping about "standards" from an equally lame 39-1 that should have been ditched long ago....granted its all we got.....

I came back to CAP for the missions not the "rank" "grade" and  bling one could accrue in CAP....'cuz al that Banana Dictator ribbons we get is the "thank you" we get.   We all get it!

But the arguments about BMI, CSU's, etc just invite the "uniform" to go away.  The AF can and hopefully cancel CAP's subscription to the uniform.  Hopefully there could be enough AF Generals' reading this forum to see how Officers in CAP act wwith each other and put each other down for "opinions."  The arguments presented here on this forum definitely screams a TOTALLY civilian uniform for CIVIL Air Patrol.

Time for CAPTalkers to grow  up about this.  Its time for 1) a NEW and yearly updated 39-1...NO ICL's..solid decisions only 2) Facing the FACT that this is a VOLUNTEER organization which many here Take waaaaaaaaaaay tooooooo seriously. 3) CAP will never be perfect and those folks who can not handle other folks perceived "negative" comments are just that.  4) Folks in CAP believing that everybody in CAP is paying attention to BMI is seriously mistaken and that if CAP is to be taken seriously...then CAP NHQ ought to be funding 52 weeks a year at a gym of one choice so we alllllllll look like fit and fighting machines.... Some of CAP's uniform wearing folks who have never served will wish they all had the opportunity to push away some Ft ( insert here) soil.  Some folks have definite health issues and some CAPTalkers here think everyone here ought to slim and trim... How about some of you CAPTAlkers hump a load wherever.  Some of the folks in CAP who don't "fit" the bill for uniforms....they are doing both operational and the not so glamorous CAP administrative stuff.

If one does not like some ones "emailed" opinions about good 'ol CAP...too bad.  CAPTalkers need a dose of reality, there are waaaaaay tooo many threads regarding uniforms....indicating to me...there needs to be more to life....like me need a life so I would not respond to uniform and bling hunters.  Good luck folks, when CAP gets the AF uniform pulled from them and quite possibly have to adopt to a civilian uniform. 

Hopefully there will be an AF General that has got the guts to suggest to Congress or vice versa to say..... "It is time for a change, Senior  boys and girls of CAP, we are eliminating  the wear of AF uniform and requiring CAP to wear AF approved civilian wear."   How will that set then with the membership, HUH?   The mission counts more than the cloth one wears.  Time for a COHERENT CAP and its regulations before anyone can spout off to one another without the real facts about uniform wear.  Do Not tell about how good 39-1 is......an organization that can not keep up with uniform updates, especially in the day of Word Documents or whatever, shows how LAME the organization is in taking care of the AF uniform to begin with 

[Rotorhead]

3) CAP will never be perfect

Both you and Radioman could afford to read that a few times.