I started to Walk/Jog a week ago, I am down to 12 Minute Miles, YAY. If only I can get the pain in my Left Shin to stop, I can go further. I've been counting my calories also!! I'm training because I want to become a Master Medic in CAP.
Also, I understand the CAP has a Field Medic Course, I was wondering will my Military Experience/Training Count to at least become a Basic Field Medic?
Who's teaching a Medic course? ??? It's not a "National" thing, that for sure.
And before you invest a lot of time and money, a read of the CAP 160 series regs would be a good idea.
Because those are the rules you would have to operate under.
I'm going to take a shot in the dark and guess that he is talking about Hawk Mountain "field medic".
Congrats on your progress :clap:. Hope this doesn't turn into another HMRS locked thread.
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 14, 2013, 05:00:49 PM
I started to Walk/Jog a week ago, I am down to 12 Minute Miles, YAY. If only I can get the pain in my Left Shin to stop, I can go further. I've been counting my calories also!! I'm training because I want to become a Master Medic in CAP.
I don't have the means to go to Hawk Mountain. Can I become a Field Medic not doing this? I am wondering can they use my Military Training so I don't have to go through ALL of the Perquisites.
Did I miss something? Since when does CAP have "medics?"
Quote from: Woodsy on April 14, 2013, 06:57:38 PM
Did I miss something? Since when does CAP have "medics?"
Reason for my hint that he review the CAPR 160 series regs...
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 14, 2013, 06:33:40 PM
I don't have the means to go to Hawk Mountain. Can I become a Field Medic not doing this? I am wondering can they use my Military Training so I don't have to go through ALL of the Perquisites.
To answer your question as best as I can and to the absolute best of my knowledge. I know that NC has a large number of rangers and every year has a ranger training weekend. That weekend will likely be your best bet. Some squadrons near yours have a high concentration of rangers and may have some training events too. I do not believe your military training will transfer directly but I imagine it will make the signoffs easier. Hope this helps some..
If you are referring to the medic speciality badge (Star of Life) it is for nationally registered emergency medical services providers. The basic level is for EMT-Basics (soon to be EMT). The senior level is for EMT-I 85 (soon to be Advanced EMT AEMT) or I-99 (soon to be EMT-Paramedic). The master level is for NREMT-Ps (soon to be known as Paramedics). As Arkbird said there are ranger programs there in NC and I don't know much about them except I ran into them and some PA rangers when I was in KY wing. I actually had R3 from back WIWAC but do not wear it.
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 14, 2013, 06:33:40 PM
I don't have the means to go to Hawk Mountain. Can I become a Field Medic not doing this? I am wondering can they use my Military Training so I don't have to go through ALL of the Perquisites.
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 14, 2013, 05:00:49 PM
I started to Walk/Jog a week ago, I am down to 12 Minute Miles, YAY.
I am at 21 minute mile walking only yesterday. A man gots to know his limitations ;)
I'm not talking about the Paramedic Badge. I am talking the NCERMT about getting my EMT-B. There is ranger weekends here in NC, but that is for Ranger 3,2 and 1. I want to get the sign off for Field Medic 1st Class, Senior Medic or Master Medic. I got lots of work to do, but it is a goal.
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 14, 2013, 09:52:31 PM
I'm not talking about the Paramedic Badge. I am talking the NCERMT about getting my EMT-B. There is ranger weekends here in NC, but that is for Ranger 3,2 and 1. I want to get the sign off for Field Medic 1st Class, Senior Medic or Master Medic. I got lots of work to do, but it is a goal.
There is no Field Medic Rating, or any other qualification of that type in CAP, nor any that is recognized for ES operations or qualifications.
If you are an EMT, Nurse, or MD, you may qualify for one of those badges, but those have no actual standing in operations.
NESA has been offering a First Responder course, but it, in and of itself, has no standing in ES operations, you still have to complete the
GT curriculum. Likewise the various course and classes offered by the HAA at Hawk Mountain.
CAP has the GTM3-2-1 & GTL qualifications, and for that all you need is a basic "community level" first aid course form an outside certifying body.
I guess Wikipedia is wrong, LOL. Oh well, Ranger 3rd it is.
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 14, 2013, 10:14:09 PM
I guess Wikipedia is wrong, LOL. Oh well, Ranger 3rd it is.
Wiki What now?
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 14, 2013, 10:14:09 PM
I guess Wikipedia is wrong, LOL. Oh well, Ranger 3rd it is.
First off, congrats on getting your time down! The longest journey begins with a single step!
You are referring to the Field Medic Program offered by HMRS. It is a great program, and I know of at least 3 RNs that got their start and fell in love with the medical field because of it. I earned my Field Medic tab eons ago (1994), and when I took my test for NREMT, I feel that a lot of what I taught at HMRS helped. I dont know if all of your HM training will transfer over, but Im sure some of it will. You can get your Ranger grades while your at it. ;)
Most of the people who post on here are openly hostile towards Hawk Moutain Ranger School, so if you are interested in the program, keep that in mind. Good luck in your journey.
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 14, 2013, 05:00:49 PMI've been counting my calories also!!
That's pretty much the key to sustainable weight loss. Knowing how much you're taking in, be it with a food journal, weight watchers, etc. Keep it up!
When you're ready, I highly recommend Couch to 5K (http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_3/181.shtml). It's a regimen, it's easy to understand, you can repeat weeks if you're not ready for the next step, etc. Good stuff. I used C25K when I started running back in 2010.
Quote from: GroundHawg on April 14, 2013, 10:59:10 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 14, 2013, 10:14:09 PM
I guess Wikipedia is wrong, LOL. Oh well, Ranger 3rd it is.
First off, congrats on getting your time down! The longest journey begins with a single step!
You are referring to the Field Medic Program offered by HMRS. It is a great program, and I know of at least 3 RNs that got their start and fell in love with the medical field because of it. I earned my Field Medic tab eons ago (1994), and when I took my test for NREMT, I feel that a lot of what I taught at HMRS helped. I dont know if all of your HM training will transfer over, but Im sure some of it will. You can get your Ranger grades while your at it. ;)
Most of the people who post on here are openly hostile towards Hawk Moutain Ranger School, so if you are interested in the program, keep that in mind. Good luck in your journey.
Thank you. I don't see why people are Hostile Against Hawk Mountain. But I Digress. Our unit wants to start a ranger team, so I am trying to get back into shape. My injures prevent me from doing a lot of stuff.
What is the expectation that your unit has for a Ranger Team?
Does it already have a proficient, active Ground Team?
Quote from: Eclipse on April 14, 2013, 11:36:50 PM
What is the expectation that your unit has for a Ranger Team?
Does it already have a proficient, active Ground Team?
Yes, we are known as the SAR Devils :)
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 01:56:06 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 14, 2013, 11:36:50 PM
What is the expectation that your unit has for a Ranger Team?
Does it already have a proficient, active Ground Team?
Yes, we are known as the SAR Devils :)
Cool, then what would you expect from "Ranger Training"?
I'm not sure, not my Idea, it is my Unit CC and Cadet CC Idea.
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 02:14:33 AM
I'm not sure, not my Idea, it is my Unit CC and Cadet CC Idea.
You might want to ask those questions before investing a lot of time in the idea.
Bivouacs, responder training, etc., have potential value in and of themselves, but will be of little use within CAP. There are also issues of the what's and hows of anything that is is beyond GTM or basic First Aid, and Ranger-type training wanders into HAA quickly.
Doc, I suggest that you do an advanced search (http://captalk.net/index.php?action=search;advanced;search=) on medic, by user Ned. These posts are parts of longer, older, threads that cover medical care by CAP personnel very well. The bottom line is that CAP does not provide medical care beyond basic first aid.
I haven't personally experienced the kind of behavior issues that many here have that have soured them on things like HMRS, as I've never met anyone who has been there. I would probably begin to feel the same way if I encountered it many times. However, to me, this just sounds fun!
HMRS is one of those things I'd like to do some day. I am completely aware that a majority of the things taught there are not applicable to most GT missions. It's just that I love this kind of stuff. I'll take a wilderness survival course over sitting at my desk any day. Same with land nav, water survival, wood craft, etc. If MIWG offered a "ranger" course, I'd be there, just 'cuz I'm an outdoors nut like that.
Maybe it's because I'm 41 and its mid-life crisis time and I've got a job that I don't love and all that blah, blah, blah that any opportunity for any kind of training in this arena hits me like a 5 year old in Toys R' Us. I don't care about the Ranger bling (I think the ascot's kinda' ugly myself), and honestly if I never use any of it in a real live mission I'm fine with that. I'll still have had a weekend or a week where I was out of the office, in the woods and smelling campfires. I'll have memories I wouldn't otherwise have. And maybe I'll pick up a few things to have as fun hip-pocket lessons for a meeting night. One of these days I'll be a grandpa, and I'll build memories with my grandkids doing crazy fun stuff in the woods.
I've been looking into getting First Responder or EMT-B training. Not because I think I'll use much of it in CAP, but its really interesting to me and I want to learn more. I'm motivated by it.
So to Devil Doc, take the caveats offered here about "ranger training" to heart. YES, you really can't use most of this training on CAP missions (your awesome RM experience most likely puts you so far ahead of the game in this area its ridiculous). BUT, have a blast doing it. Make memories with your squadron. Share some stories about your military experiences around the campfire and mentor some cadets. As long as everyone understand the realities of how this fits in with real-world CAP missions and keeps their attitudes of being "Elite Ranges" in check, have fun.
Who said we cant do more than Basic First-Aid? Theres is a Good Samartan Law. Im sorry, but if someone need life saving medical help, im doing it. I dont care if i have a "Piece of Paper" that says I can or cannot. I follow the hippocratic oath, with or without being in the Military.
That being said, I dont care about the bling, im not trying to go out and be the "Elite Ranger". There is a Master Medic Training for a reason. Why do people think it dosnt fit with CAP and GTM? We are a Search and Rescue Team, all of that involves medical, etc.
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 02:46:57 PM
Who said we cant do more than Basic First-Aid?
CAPR 60-3
Here's the regs on medical care:
From CAPR 60-3
Quotef. First Aid and Emergency Medical Care. CAP is not an emergency medical care or paramedic organization and should not advertise itself as such. CAP will not be the primary provider of medical support on missions or training events though qualified personnel can be used to support such activities. The only type of medical aid that should be administered by CAP personnel or by any other person at CAP's request is reasonable treatment deemed necessary to save a life or prevent human suffering. This treatment must be executed by a person qualified to attempt such medical care within their skill level. When first aid or higher medical training is required for qualification in a particular specialty, the expectation is that the qualification course includes both knowledge and practical skills training; first aid courses taken on-line only are not acceptable; though members are not considered employees when supporting operations, courses are expected to meet the National Guidelines for First Aid in Occupational Settings available at http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/24000/24700/24757/ngfatos.pdf (http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/24000/24700/24757/ngfatos.pdf) or ASTM F 2171-02(2009), Standard Guide for Defining the Performance of First Aid Providers in Occupational Settings. CAP medical personnel are not provided supplemental malpractice insurance coverage, and any care provided is at the members own risk. Though medical supplies and equipment are not normally provided to responders, any reasonable supplies used on training or actual missions may be submitted for reimbursement as long as sufficient justification is provided.
Its a bit of a gray area. We're not billed as being EMT types. I'm sure it comes down to liability & licensing issues and the regs here are aimed at limiting the amount of medical care we're allowed to perform for those reasons.
There's been some debate as to where to draw the line insofar as EMTs, RNs and military medics like yourself are considered. It does say "within their skill level". With the spirit of the reg being to limit the amount of aid we provide and the letter of the reg being a little vague, it's not an east answer.
As for the "Master Medic" rating. Since you are newer, you probably haven't gotten some of the background on these programs. The "ranger" courses were started by PAWG at the Hawk Mountain Ranger School. The qualifications a while back for ground team ops weren't standardized across the country, so the HMRS was a PAWG thing. Once the current ES rating system was in place, this training fell outside the national standard and is not required for any CAP mission. The program (and other like it) have been kept, mostly as NCSAs. You won't find a SQTR for Medics or Rangers. If you have a lot of time and want to see how ugly CT debates can get, do a search for "Hawk Mountain" or "HMRS". You could lose all afternoon.
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 02:46:57 PM
Who said we cant do more than Basic First-Aid? Theres is a Good Samartan Law. Im sorry, but if someone need life saving medical help, im doing it. I dont care if i have a "Piece of Paper" that says I can or cannot. I follow the hippocratic oath, with or without being in the Military.
That being said, I dont care about the bling, im not trying to go out and be the "Elite Ranger". There is a Master Medic Training for a reason. Why do people think it dosnt fit with CAP and GTM? We are a Search and Rescue Team, all of that involves medical, etc.
Good Sam laws may cover YOU, but they do not cover CAP. If you're operating as a CAP member, you need to follow CAP's rules.
As for the "Master Medic Training" the only reason it exists is some folks fail to understand CAP is NOT an EMS agency and have, for many years, disregarded CAP's rules regarding medical response. That, and it strokes some folks egos to be called "Medic". Think about this - once you get the tab and title, what on-going training/education is required to maintain the skills? Since CAP does not use medics, you aren't going to be getting experience, practice, and continuing education through CAP. Without ongoing education and practice, your skills atrophy. I let my EMT go last year because of that.
As for SAR involving medical response, the teams up here in the mountains of Colorado bring SAR trained ambulance personnel for medical treatment. There just isn't enough demand for SAR folks to get enough practice to maintain EMT qualifications. Heck, even the NIMS typing says land rescue teams do not require organic medical capabilities and third party medical personnel are fine, with SAR training of course.
Quote from: Walkman on April 15, 2013, 03:11:19 PM... Snip ... Here's the regs on medical care:Its a bit of a gray area.
Um, no. It's very black and very white. No gray
+ 1 to both above.
I say it is Gray Area. Why hasnt CAP became the Medical type of SAR? I dunno. I am talking to the board of EMTs to get there take on my training according to NC HB799 is what I am talking about. So i am atleast going to become and EMT-B. My medical skills dont go lackluster, i re read my old books, and I work in the medical field now, so it helps keep me sharp.
Any EMT/Firefighter/Medic/Doctor/Nurse will tell you, if a person needs medical help, life or death, they will help them no matter the consequences. Hippocratic Oath is a rule to live by. Yes, it may be frowned upon in a CAP Setting, but im not going to let someone die on my Watch, unless i cant help it due to injuries.
Quote from: EMT-83 on April 15, 2013, 03:43:59 PM
Um, no. It's very black and very white. No gray
I think I didn't phrase that quite correctly. I mean that the line about "within their skill level" leaves a little opening for CAP members that have advanced certs. It doesn't spell out which specific procedures you are allowed to perform. I had seen some debate about where those like EMTs draw the line at "reasonable treatment deemed necessary to save a life or prevent human suffering". That was the gray area I was thinking of. Am I completely off base with that?
Quote from: Walkman on April 15, 2013, 04:02:22 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on April 15, 2013, 03:43:59 PM
Um, no. It's very black and very white. No gray
I think I didn't phrase that quite correctly. I mean that the line about "within their skill level" leaves a little opening for CAP members that have advanced certs. It doesn't spell out which specific procedures you are allowed to perform. I had seen some debate about where those like EMTs draw the line at "reasonable treatment deemed necessary to save a life or prevent human suffering". That was the gray area I was thinking of. Am I completely off base with that?
Yes. The regs you quoted are very clear. CAP is not a medical responder and anything beyond basic first aid is supposed to be handled by other agencies.
The first aid training we are required to have is aimed primarily at self and buddy care. Those photos you see far too often of cadets with stethoscopes,
or comments about "medical bays" and "triage" at encampments and other activities, are situations where these participants are playing fast
and loose with the regs, to the own risk and without any proper authorization from the organization. Those photos and situations are stuff of Wing CC nightmares.
Now, like all CAP regs, they do not trump the law, and if you are bound by "duty of care", etc., etc., then quoting a CAP reg is not going to protect you in
a civil or criminal case, but likewise neither will CAP be bound to provide you with any liability protection, etc., should you provide care beyond their authorization.
This puts many members into a precarious position - bound to provide care, but perhaps not covered by any angle of their insurance. If you're a medical professional
on any level, ask your employer what they think about being liable for you providing care while in a CAP uniform.
My advice to these members has been to simply not put themselves in situations where this might occur, and yes, that means some of our most highly motivated
ground types might not play, and isn't completely unusual.
This is a situation that has been hotly debated for at least a decade, and NHQ does not seem interested in changing things any time soon.
Right, wrong, or otherwise, it simply "is". Members need to accept that and act accordingly.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 15, 2013, 04:09:30 PM
Quote from: Walkman on April 15, 2013, 04:02:22 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on April 15, 2013, 03:43:59 PM
Um, no. It's very black and very white. No gray
I think I didn't phrase that quite correctly. I mean that the line about "within their skill level" leaves a little opening for CAP members that have advanced certs. It doesn't spell out which specific procedures you are allowed to perform. I had seen some debate about where those like EMTs draw the line at "reasonable treatment deemed necessary to save a life or prevent human suffering". That was the gray area I was thinking of. Am I completely off base with that?
Yes. The regs you quoted are very clear. CAP is not a medical responder and anything beyond basic first aid is supposed to be handled by other agencies.
Now, like all CAP regs, they do not trump the law, and if you are bound by "duty of care", etc., etc., then quoting a CAP reg is not going to protect you in
a civil or criminal case, but likewise neither will CAP be bound to provide you with any liability protection, etc., should you provide care beyond their authorization.
This puts many members into a precarious position - bound to provide care, but perhaps not covered by any angle of their insurance.
My advice to these member has been to simply not put themselves in situations where this might occur, and yes, that means some of our most highly motivated
ground types might not play.
This is a situation that has been hotly debated for at least a decade, and NHQ does not seem interested in changing things any time soon.
Right, wrong, or otherwise, it simply "is". Members need to accept that and act accordingly.
I respect that Eclipse, looking out for the people as a Whole. I understand fully what the consequences are. I do not see why NHQ does not want to change regs or mission, i guess there is bigger fish to fry.
Cool thing about NC HB 799, it states Licensure for individuals with military training and experience; licensure by endorsement for military spouses; temporary license.
So im talking to the EMT board because my training is equivalent to an EMT-B. So North Carolina can license me as long as I have the Equivalent training. I think this is a plus for Military Medics Alike.
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 04:23:09 PMSo im talking to the EMT board because my training is equivalent to an EMT-B. So North Carolina can license me as long as I have the Equivalent training. I think this is a plus for Military Medics Alike.
I know this is a big deal for those coming out / back from the military and as far as I'm concerned we need to make better efforts to get those in the military equivalent civilian certifications and
qualifications so their hard-won skills can be used when they get home.
Just make sure you understand that, beyond wearing the EMT badge, you won't be able to make much use of that within a CAP context.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 15, 2013, 04:27:33 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 04:23:09 PMSo im talking to the EMT board because my training is equivalent to an EMT-B. So North Carolina can license me as long as I have the Equivalent training. I think this is a plus for Military Medics Alike.
I know this is a big deal for those coming out / back from the military and as far as I'm concerned we need to make better efforts to get those in the military equivalent civilian certifications and
qualifications so their hard-won skills can be used when they get home.
Just make sure you understand that, beyond wearing the EMT badge, you won't be able to make much use of that within a CAP context.
Duly noted, good sir.
Devil-
I am a teacher in NYC. Last October 2012 we had Hurricane Sandy. I reported to work at a Relocation Shelter. When I showed up I was the one with the highest preparation, AHA First Aid and CPR, and an expired EMT / Basic certification. So I was in charge of setting up the First Aid office. Very soon, we got a nurse. Matter of fact, school nurse. She gave all basic medications - aspirin, kids cough's formula, all these were over-the-counter medications - to the administrator for safe-keeping. The nurse said "lacking medical oversight, I will not have any of those as it is a legal issue."
Also I am sure you know that EMS ambulances, EMTs and Paramedics work under regional medical councils with protocols decided in advance and medical oversight. Some EMTs and Paramedics are suspended every time they do not adhere to those protocols or ignore their medical oversight.
The point I am trying to make is that CAP does not have medical oversight, lacks those mutual aid protocols. Eclipse has told you it puts the corporation at a liability. If you show up with equipment as a ground team member and the leader tells you that you cannot carry it with you, are going to argue? Because if he allows you to carry it into the field he is allowing you to treat victims. And where is the support that you would need?
Too much on this issue.
Follow Eclipse's advice.
Flyer
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 04:23:09 PM
I respect that Eclipse, looking out for the people as a Whole. I understand fully what the consequences are. I do not see why NHQ does not want to change regs or mission, i guess there is bigger fish to fry.
Cool thing about NC HB 799, it states Licensure for individuals with military training and experience; licensure by endorsement for military spouses; temporary license.
So im talking to the EMT board because my training is equivalent to an EMT-B. So North Carolina can license me as long as I have the Equivalent training. I think this is a plus for Military Medics Alike.
The reason NHQ doesn't want to change the regs is there are 50+ jurisdictions for EMS (all the states, and some delegate it further down). Trying to find a common level plus provide the requisite medical oversight is a non-trivial issue. There was an effort to increase the medical services CAP offers under the auspices of the AF Surgeon General as a national medical control, but the current laws prevented it, and the Surgeon General was not very accepting of the idea.
As a Paramedic at the end of the day I do first aid and cpr and nothing else. In fact I do not even identify myself as a Paramedic (in states with multi levels of EMS service licensure you can find yourself riding in providing patient care as you were highest level on scene) when I stop on the side of the road. Most often I call 911, reassure the patient (especially if I have no gloves) , take or direct c-spine if necessary, and wait for EMS to arrive Without the toys its LOC, A,B,C.
A good lawyer will also hang both you and CAP out to dry by arguing that the Good Samartian law does not apply because although you were not being paid for your services and you had no duty to act you chose to and received compensation through being provided federal insurance coverage on approved AF missions (That my friend is considered payment even if you do not receive it). That makes you liable for care. When CAP stands up and says Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury we have CAPR 60-3 that states we do not provide medical services and members are aware of our status, you will be without the chair when the music ends.
Bottom line is A,B,C is where lives are saved and only used when lifesaving measures are necessary. Preventitive measures and good ORM will fix a lot of first aid issues. At the end of the day, I am an ordinary citizen.
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 04:00:30 PM
I say it is Gray Area. Why hasnt CAP became the Medical type of SAR? I dunno. I am talking to the board of EMTs to get there take on my training according to NC HB799 is what I am talking about. So i am atleast going to become and EMT-B. My medical skills dont go lackluster, i re read my old books, and I work in the medical field now, so it helps keep me sharp.
Any EMT/Firefighter/Medic/Doctor/Nurse will tell you, if a person needs medical help, life or death, they will help them no matter the consequences. Hippocratic Oath is a rule to live by. Yes, it may be frowned upon in a CAP Setting, but im not going to let someone die on my Watch, unless i cant help it due to injuries.
I don't know if they even teach medical/legal issues in the military, but trust me; it's a big deal in the civilian world. We've had the discussion many times here, but don't count on Good Samaritan laws to cover your butt.
It's very simple; provide medical care while working for CAP and no one has your back. You're on your own. Do you really want to risk your house, car, job, or whatever, just to thumb your nose at the rules?
Quote from: Jaison009 on April 15, 2013, 05:33:31 PM
As a Paramedic at the end of the day I do first aid and cpr and nothing else. Without the toys its A,B,C. A good lawyer will also hang both you and CAP out to dry by arguing that the Good Samartian law does not apply because although you were not being paid for your services and you had no duty to act you chose to and received compensation through being provided federal insurance coverage on approved AF missions. Bottom line is A,B,C is where lives are saved and what keeps you safe.
That clears it up for me. Thanks!
In a Sue Sue Sue Country, that is the way this country works its a shame that people with adequate training, and skills have a fear of Legal Ramifications.
If you can leave a Legal Aspects out of Medical Care, Especially when it comes to Emergency Medicine and SAR, CAP could function alot better. However, because of the mentallity of Liability, Insurance and Malpractice, why should one want to stop and Help. Goom Samaratan law should a ground to stand on when it comes to Life or Death. CAP should have precedence over you basic first aid since we are a Government Entity.
I am not sure what equipment people are reffering to carrying on a ground team, but I do carry military style medical equipment.
IMO legal issues should have no leg to stand on when the person willing to save a ife, risk there own life and time to do it.
But you can't remove the legal aspects, because in theory they are there to protect you and the victims / patients. Those cadets with stethoscopes I referred to earlier
are just the tip of what we would see if CAP allowed any sort of ALS or similar. The only think more dangerous then ignorance is a "little" knowledge - someone who
thinks they have a clue and makes things worse because they don't.
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 06:31:46 PMI am not sure what equipment people are reffering to carrying on a ground team, but I do carry military style medical equipment.
I have had members show up with backboards, oxygen, C-Collars to name a few. I've seen a couple other things not for air as well.
Backboard and C-Collars is First Aid. Oxygen is Not. Stethoscopes can be used to find Ascultation on the Internal Sounds of the Body.
Its not like im Carrying Combi-Tubes or Intubating people.
I do however, Carry Tourniquets, Kerlix, Stethoscope, BP Cuff, Cravats, Gloves, 4 x 4 Bandages, etc. Im trying to get a C-Collar, Cloth Litter, and other random medical supplies.
I am not doing I.Vs, Pushing Meds, Intubating, Crics etc.
I may do a Need Thornetesis if need be, and Sucking chest wounds etc.
Lets thank about this logically. The life safety issues that kill most people are strokes, cancer, cardiac arrest, and respiratory arrest.
In a stroke early detection and early access to the appropriate facility is key.
Nothing you can do about cancer.
In a cardiac arrest situation, there is trouble with perfusion and/or the pump. What can we do about it as prehospital providers? Check LOC, call EMS, open airway, look, listen, and feel for breath sounds, If none 2 rescue breaths, check a pulse or signs of circulation. If none, start CPR. Early un-interrupted CPR, defibrillation, and EMS access are the keys to survival. The out of hospital cardiac arrest survival rate is
LOW. The key is non-stop compressions. Even if you do nothing else get on the chest, push hard, push fast. The science behind the new ARC and AHA standards prove that even if you do not stop for breaths, proper CPR generates 21% O2 (minimum necessary to sustain life).
In a respiratory arrest, proper basic airway management: positioning, opening/re-opening airway, airway visualization for foreign body objects, finger sweeps as appropriate, providing breathing using faceshield fixes most breathing problems.
With circulation issues such as life threatening bleeding: direct pressure, (no more pressure dressing or pressure points), and tourniquet if direct pressure does not stop it.
As a Medic I can intubate, start IV/IOs, provide cardiac monitoring, provide injections, provide 12 lead ECG diagnosis, airway management both basic and advanced, fracture care, handle burns, trauma, ob-gyn, cardiac, diabetic, respiratory, and hundreds of other types of issues, etc, etc as long as I have the tools.
No matter what I do it starts Level of Consciousness, Circulation, Airway, Breathing, advanced stuff. Most of the advanced stuff with toys is necessary because the basics weren't done or failed. So in the above I used first aid and CPR with minimal equipment (gloves, 4x4s (gauze pads), personal face shield, Israeli or military compression bandage, and my mini first aid kit (bandaids, safety pins, tape, space blanket, etc) and handled 90% of the
true life threatening emergencies. The items I use most are ibuprofen, lomotil, and moleskin. No reason to have or carry anything else. Even in true wilderness medicine, advanced procedures are discouraged due to the risk of infection from the environment and further injury from moving the patient. Carrying all of the stuff that is in my Northface backpack is not only impractical but kills me as a responder. Carrying around an extra 20 lbs of crap I'll never be able to use that will expire sucks.
I think this is where you will see a challenge in the civilian EMS world also.
As an EMT you will not be starting IVs, intubating, darting chests, or any of the other stuff that you learned and did in the military. An EMT-B is limited in their skill to assessment, taking vital signs, basic airway management, bleeding control, spinal immobilization, lifting patients, doing CPR, assisting patients with their own medications, and assisting your medic by setting up for advanced skills. Driving is almost a 100% gurantee.
There is not a lot there that doesn't use basic FA.
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 06:31:46 PM
In a Sue Sue Sue Country, that is the way this country works its a shame that people with adequate training, and skills have a fear of Legal Ramifications.
If you can leave a Legal Aspects out of Medical Care, Especially when it comes to Emergency Medicine and SAR, CAP could function alot better. However, because of the mentallity of Liability, Insurance and Malpractice, why should one want to stop and Help. Goom Samaratan law should a ground to stand on when it comes to Life or Death. CAP should have precedence over you basic first aid since we are a Government Entity.
I am not sure what equipment people are reffering to carrying on a ground team, but I do carry military style medical equipment.
IMO legal issues should have no leg to stand on when the person willing to save a ife, risk there own life and time to do it.
It sucks carrying a backboard around the back country. A stethoscope can be shoved into a first aid kit and not be in the way along with a bp cuff but I don't recommend it. The cravats, 4x4s, gloves, banadges, etc are all part of a basic first aid kit. Cloth litter and other "random medical supplies" I would avoid. Treating a sucking or flail segment are often taught as part of wilderness FA. Darting a chest will open you to a lot of issues.
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 07:08:53 PM
Backboard and C-Collars is First Aid. Oxygen is Not. Stethoscopes can be used to find Ascultation on the Internal Sounds of the Body.
Its not like im Carrying Combi-Tubes or Intubating people.
I do however, Carry Tourniquets, Kerlix, Stethoscope, BP Cuff, Cravats, Gloves, 4 x 4 Bandages, etc. Im trying to get a C-Collar, Cloth Litter, and other random medical supplies.
I am not doing I.Vs, Pushing Meds, Intubating, Crics etc.
I may do a Need Thornetesis if need be, and Sucking chest wounds etc.
LOL, I should change the name of this thread.
I do Agree 100% with Basics. Basics are 90% of the work you do. LOC, A&O, ABC, Etc. I did not know EMT-B cannot Dart Chest. It would make since now that i think of it. I do have to remember that Military Medicine and Civilian Medicine is Different.
A Wildness FA Class is fine, I do not think they have any around here. The backboard i would prolly leave in the CAP Van or POV, so i would not be carrying it around. Im still learning how CAP does stuff.
Thanks for the Advise guys, im not a Civilian Medic, so it is appreciated. Hopefully i can get my EMT-B eventually, and learn what type of First Aid i can, and Cannot do.
The thing to keep in mind is that, if you're trained as an EMS provider at any level (CFR up through EMT-P), you can't perform any invasive skills or administer medications, even if in your scope of practice, without medical direction. This means a physician who is taking responsibility for the care that medical providers in your agency provide. My team, Cibola SAR, has a medical director. CAP does not, and most likely never will. Hence, you're pretty well down to basic first aid. No invasive airways (including OPAs and NPAs), no drugs, nothing sharp.
But let's be honest. in wilderness SAR, the patient is gonna be stable when you find him or her, hours or days after the call came in. He or she will either be stable in a good way (alive, with a reasonable BP, HR and RR), or stable in a bad way (assuming ambient temperature), but stable nonetheless. Honestly, not much of a need in wildland SAR for anything more than basic first aid. Argument can be made for Certified First Responder (enlightened first aid). Wilderness First Responder would be nice.
if your medkit weighs more than your lunch, you're doin' it wrong.
As for walking and/or jogging, checkout the UP by Jawbone. I won one last week and think it could help someone trying to walk/exercise more.
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 07:28:39 PM
I do Agree 100% with Basics. Basics are 90% of the work you do. LOC, A&O, ABC, Etc. I did not know EMT-B cannot Dart Chest. It would make since now that i think of it. I do have to remember that Military Medicine and Civilian Medicine is Different.
It depends on the juristdiction.
Whoa, now! How'd we get so off topic? :o This happens so often. I guess it's a casualty of CAPTalk. (http://cdn.thegoatspot.net/forum/images/smilies/rofl1.gif)
Today was officially the last day of MY walk/jog beginner program. I'm hoping that I'll be able to do the mile run right (and fast enough) next week for PT! For the readers who are wondering what in the world this is, here is the program - taken from a CAP draft called Cadets Take Off (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Cadets_TakeOff_0CC0C01D61E3E_8FFE3E801A864.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Cadets_TakeOff_0CC0C01D61E3E_8FFE3E801A864.pdf)).
(http://kidbusinessowners.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/jog1.png?w=300)
After PT, I'll try to get on and tell you guys if it worked. ;D
Quote from: EMT-83 on April 15, 2013, 05:44:22 PM
I don't know if they even teach medical/legal issues in the military, but trust me; it's a big deal in the civilian world. We've had the discussion many times here, but don't count on Good Samaritan laws to cover your butt.
It's very simple; provide medical care while working for CAP and no one has your back. You're on your own. Do you really want to risk your house, car, job, or whatever, just to thumb your nose at the rules?
I tried to explain this to a young senior member (EMT-Basic) in my squadron after he told me he was trying to get some oxygen tanks to carry with him on GT stuff. ::)
We have a word for the overenthusiastic volunteer phenomenon in EMS.
Quote from: CAP4117 on April 27, 2013, 11:55:12 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on April 15, 2013, 05:44:22 PM
I don't know if they even teach medical/legal issues in the military, but trust me; it's a big deal in the civilian world. We've had the discussion many times here, but don't count on Good Samaritan laws to cover your butt.
It's very simple; provide medical care while working for CAP and no one has your back. You're on your own. Do you really want to risk your house, car, job, or whatever, just to thumb your nose at the rules?
I tried to explain this to a young senior member (EMT-Basic) in my squadron after he told me he was trying to get some oxygen tanks to carry with him on GT stuff. ::)
We have a word for the overenthusiastic volunteer phenomenon in EMS.
But, but, but! O2 is the most important medication ever in history. It's the cure-all for everything!
Quote from: JayT on April 28, 2013, 01:34:05 AM
But, but, but! O2 is the most important medication ever in history. It's the cure-all for everything!
I thought the cure all was a healthy dose of motrin and an IV?
>:D >:D >:D >:D
Quote from: JayT on April 28, 2013, 01:34:05 AM
Quote from: CAP4117 on April 27, 2013, 11:55:12 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on April 15, 2013, 05:44:22 PM
I don't know if they even teach medical/legal issues in the military, but trust me; it's a big deal in the civilian world. We've had the discussion many times here, but don't count on Good Samaritan laws to cover your butt.
It's very simple; provide medical care while working for CAP and no one has your back. You're on your own. Do you really want to risk your house, car, job, or whatever, just to thumb your nose at the rules?
I tried to explain this to a young senior member (EMT-Basic) in my squadron after he told me he was trying to get some oxygen tanks to carry with him on GT stuff. ::)
We have a word for the overenthusiastic volunteer phenomenon in EMS.
But, but, but! O2 is the most important medication ever in history. It's the cure-all for everything!
Yeah, O2 will cure a hangover. You still hurt, but at least you can function.
Done more then a couple aircraft pre-flights carrying a yellow O2 bottle and wearing an quick-don oxygen mask on my face!
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 04:23:09 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 15, 2013, 04:09:30 PM
Quote from: Walkman on April 15, 2013, 04:02:22 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on April 15, 2013, 03:43:59 PM
Um, no. It's very black and very white. No gray
I think I didn't phrase that quite correctly. I mean that the line about "within their skill level" leaves a little opening for CAP members that have advanced certs. It doesn't spell out which specific procedures you are allowed to perform. I had seen some debate about where those like EMTs draw the line at "reasonable treatment deemed necessary to save a life or prevent human suffering". That was the gray area I was thinking of. Am I completely off base with that?
Yes. The regs you quoted are very clear. CAP is not a medical responder and anything beyond basic first aid is supposed to be handled by other agencies.
Now, like all CAP regs, they do not trump the law, and if you are bound by "duty of care", etc., etc., then quoting a CAP reg is not going to protect you in
a civil or criminal case, but likewise neither will CAP be bound to provide you with any liability protection, etc., should you provide care beyond their authorization.
This puts many members into a precarious position - bound to provide care, but perhaps not covered by any angle of their insurance.
My advice to these member has been to simply not put themselves in situations where this might occur, and yes, that means some of our most highly motivated
ground types might not play.
This is a situation that has been hotly debated for at least a decade, and NHQ does not seem interested in changing things any time soon.
Right, wrong, or otherwise, it simply "is". Members need to accept that and act accordingly.
I respect that Eclipse, looking out for the people as a Whole. I understand fully what the consequences are. I do not see why NHQ does not want to change regs or mission, i guess there is bigger fish to fry.
Cool thing about NC HB 799, it states Licensure for individuals with military training and experience; licensure by endorsement for military spouses; temporary license.
So im talking to the EMT board because my training is equivalent to an EMT-B. So North Carolina can license me as long as I have the Equivalent training. I think this is a plus for Military Medics Alike.
So I'm asking this out of ignorance of the way USN does things: Were you not trained/certified as an EMT as part of post-BMT specialty training? The way the Army does it is to certify all 68Ws through NREMT, and I was under the impression that both USAF and USN had similar programs.
The USN when I went through did not train you to become a EMT through the NREMT. Now the AF, Army, Navy and CG train at Fort Sam Houston and you get EMT-B Certified or you can chose to become an LPN. Its joint training then you go to your designated branch to learn that branches skills.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 27, 2013, 12:26:46 PM
As for walking and/or jogging, checkout the UP by Jawbone. I won one last week and think it could help someone trying to walk/exercise more.
Encampment!
As a prior FMF "Doc" and EMT-B like the other "DevilDoc" on here I can relate to responding to incidents both in and out of the military. It can become very problematic when dealing with laws for medical care whether you are in a duty position or in just in your car and responding to a car accident when off duty. When I went through my "A" school for Corpsman in 2001 nobody really thought to ask about what do we do when we get out for work as we had just got into the military. Even when I attended FMSS at Camp Pendleton in 2002 for my FMF rating there was not any talk about certifications outside of the military. It was not until 2004 when I was overseas in Okinawa that I was able to get my NREMT certification on the side through our training company. My understanding that nowadays corpsman are getting their NREMT certification which was a good move. I worked as an EMT and volunteer firefighter when I got out of the military and felt lucky to get that job years ago as I continually was told that I was overqualified and it was very frustrating due to several other quals I had also. It was frustrating to me at the time due to my training and experience that I had received to not be able to utilize them or have so little freedom to do what I was trained to do automatically. In that regard I can understand why it can be frustrating for those with certain training in CAP to not be able to use it and for others with training but no experience to be overzealous. As leaders it is our job to make sure the Cadets stay motivated about training and activities yet still remember that CAP has its limitations in regards to medical care. I agree that Cadets whether "Master Medics" or not do not need to be trekking around O2 or any other advanced equipment. Now at the same time those with training have a duty to act within their Standard of Care. No one wants to have to watch someone suffer, of course the other side of things is that with the proper training you can also direct someone what to do if they are injured to help themselves if you do not want to risk the lawsuit possibility if patients are conscious. Also I know that those of us with the proper training understand what we are risking in certain medical situations and prefer to beg forgiveness then ask permission when it comes to saving a life
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 07:08:53 PM
I may do a Need Thornetesis if need be, and Sucking chest wounds etc.
It's a Needle Thoracostomy. Totally different procedure. And I don't know of many situations in CAP wear you would have a patient with a tension pneumothroax and a 14gauage/3.25 inch decompression cath.
Congrats on the times!! My daughters and I are working on that running thing! LOL My current time is just under 14 minute mile. I'm very slow but doing it! With them it's closer to 16 minute mile. I'm working on slimming down just to be able to wear those blues! :)
Speaking of physical fitness.....
Where I live now, I am exactly 5 miles from work. I now have a nice mountain bike, a Camel Back and little to no excuses. So looks like Ill be riding 10 miles per day... 40 miles per week on my Trek G2! I cant wait. Let the games begin!
Mountain bike.. where the biggest obstacle will be a curb. ;)
It's all good..
And whats on the other side of that curb? Yeah kid.... you guessed it. The freakin JUNGLE! Cobras, Alligators, Water Moccasins...... that mountain bike could be the only thing that stands between me and a future career as alligator poop!
Quote from: DMinick on September 23, 2013, 06:57:29 PM
Congrats on the times!! My daughters and I are working on that running thing! LOL My current time is just under 14 minute mile. I'm very slow but doing it! With them it's closer to 16 minute mile. I'm working on slimming down just to be able to wear those blues! :)
Debby, congrats on your time. I break 16:00 on a good day but I am usually north of that. Keep up the good work, one step at a time. ;)
Quote from: Flying Pig on September 23, 2013, 08:21:40 PM
And whats on the other side of that curb? Yeah kid.... you guessed it. The freakin JUNGLE! Cobras, Alligators, Water Moccasins...... that mountain bike could be the only thing that stands between me and a future career as alligator poop!
I'll keep my take home ride.
Quote
And whats on the other side of that curb? Yeah kid.... you guessed it. The freakin JUNGLE! Cobras, Alligators, Water Moccasins......
Or their
human counterpart...
equally dangerous! ::)
Flyer
A few observations-
Flying Pig- from my experience, 5 miles x2 is a great conditioning ride. 5 is, at least for me, beyond the 'office clothes' limit. (I rode, seasonally, either 4x2 ( to train) or 13x2 (full commute to federal bldg) back when I was young and indestructible.)
Now riding 5-9 miles or walking in pool an hour. With portion control (collateral damage from my bride's marvelous progress with WW), I'm down 20+ lbs from top of ht/wt table with MR BDU and shortening meds list as my ultimate objectives.
Congrats to all achieving improved times. Remember, as grownups, we need to surprise the cadets every once in a while.
Fortunately I have a gym and a shower where I work. So I can keep my uniforms and everything at work and when I get there, shower get dressed. Works well
I have been suffering knee pain for over a month now and it's killing me not to run. Two different docs agree it's nothing serious, just some inflammation from over use. Got some meds and was told to take a break from impact exercises like rucking and running. I've found a new love for swimming and while I'm not the best at it, I'm a former competitive swimmer from my childhood. In addition to my regular upper body workout and a few miles on the stationary bike at a low resistance setting, I've been swimming between 1,000 and 1,500 meters a day for a month now.
Feels [darn] good but took some getting used to.
I forced myself to run 1 1/2 miles a few days go and regret it. The pain has increased but at least I know I can do it as I have a PT test in 2 weeks. I'll push it out hard and collapse at the finish in pain before I allow myself to go in profile or drop below a 95% score.
Quote from: Stonewall on September 24, 2013, 10:14:20 PM
I have been suffering knee pain for over a month now and it's killing me not to run. Two different docs agree it's nothing serious, just some inflammation from over use.
I had knee pain over the weekend. Saw the chiropractor today and I am back to 100%. Years ago I had a hernia and the doctor said I was ok. Did the Web MD thing and told him on my next visit, check me for hernia. I had surgery 72 hours later.
Doc; I missed you post entirely when you started it....sorry my bad. In as short a version as possible. Regardless of baseline medical qualification, the only way to obtain an inital qualification is attend the basic (or if offered, bridge course) during the summer school at HMRS or a bridge course if offered during the year. So technically no, you can not (as of this time) do Ranger Medic sign off's based on equivilency or only going to local training weekends. Once you obtain an initial qualification there are areas that can be completed for each level outside of HMRS/PA, there are some that ultimately need to occur at the mountain.
In your case as a FMF doc most of what is being taught (and most of what you can really do in CAP) you have more of a head start on (and honeslty better grasp of) than likey most of the "medics" on the board. The how to take care of your people thru prevention is a hundredfold more important (and a lot more likely to occur) than the 1 in a million needs for IV's, drugs and intubation kind of scenario. Re-affirming and re-enforcing common sense and makeing sure they know how and actually do treat the little things like clean socks, blister, foot powder, hydration... basically genreral health & sanitaion is more likey:
from CAPR 160-1
Quote1-7. General Duties of Health Service Personnel. CAP health service personnel are responsible for advising CAP commanders and unit personnel on the health, fitness, disease and injury prevention and environmental protection of CAP members relevant to CAP activities, with special emphasis on those members involved in flying, emergency services and disaster relief activities, field exercises, encampments and special activities.
One thing that is taught at the school is ranger first, medic second (I know very corp-ish....every Marine is a rifleman first) but its true (and you can substitute GTM for Ranger) that's why if you look at the medic skill sheets there is a pre-requiste GTM and Ranger grade requirement. Also if you cross reference the medic sheets and the ranger sheets, you will notice that the physical agility portions are the same (less the run with med bag and firemans carry parts) to each cooresponding/required ranger grade and its assocaited medic rating. ie work on your ranger grade/GTM quals first, then worry about being a medic
And as a piggy back to that, You dont have to be a "Ranger Medic" to do the job on a GTM (or ranger team) espescialy based on your previous military skill set.... your team wants you to take the role of medic, thats fine, thats between you and your team leader, as pointed out there is no such positon as "medic". The team leader wants to relegate some of his monitoring the health and welfare of the troops to you, thats ok. He want to use you as the focal point for providing/directing emergency first aid to someone, thats good leadership in my opinion
If you are still interested in HMRS medic program and course: NC has a very active Ranger Program, they make regular journeys to PA for different HMRS training activities (so the chance of summer school or the bridge program during the year is more likely). I would reccomend if you havent already done so, meet up with them. They do also have an active medical component (10 or so cadet medics over the past few years and a number of seniors, including a physican who is very active in mentoring and education)
let me know if you have any questions
mk
PS keep running.....
Fellow "Doc",
I also have expressed interest in HMRS and the Master Medic quals; I have spoken with Senior members of HMRS and informed them of my background and my interest in how it would relate to their medic quals. They informed me that the only way to get it signed off is to attend a MIKE course up there during the summer class and taking the Medic Track. They also mentioned that I should be able to Fast Track due to my military and other background experiences and certifications; however, if my EMT was still active they could fast track me to Medic 1st Class. They informed me that I could also apply for a Instructor position and that they would inform me of necessary CAP quals needed to apply.
If you need any other information please send me a PM and I will assist you in any way I can.
"Semper FI"
Doc Kibbey
WOW, I haven't been on this Forum in months!!! SARMED I am actually Ranger Class 3 Now, and working on getting my EMT-B. Ive been MIA for a few months, life has been getting in the way. I have quit walking and running everyday because I have bought a house etc. Thank you for the information.