Quick question. Can you just put a 1st Sergeant Diamond above whatever enlisted rank you want? I was at a wing level event and a bunch of us were questioning a C/SrA about it.
Couldn't find it quickly in the regs so I thought I'd ask here.
No.
If it were allowed (not my opinion, just a hypothetical situation), how would you even go about doing it? I've never seen "First Sergeant Diamond" (just the diamond) for sale on Vanguard... ::)
It exists: http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-cadet-grade-insignia-first-sergeant-chevron-p-7020.html (http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-cadet-grade-insignia-first-sergeant-chevron-p-7020.html)
Quote from: titanII on February 13, 2012, 03:35:44 AM
If it were allowed (not my opinion, just a hypothetical situation), how would you even go about doing it? I've never seen "First Sergeant Diamond" (just the diamond) for sale on Vanguard... ::)
I guess you didn't look very hard.
http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-cadet-grade-insignia-first-sergeant-chevron-p-7020.html (http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-cadet-grade-insignia-first-sergeant-chevron-p-7020.html)
Oh boy... You may have just opened up a firestorm...
Okay, so, the lozenge, by itself, DOES exist. It really should be used for sergeants only, in case there are no senior NCOs in a squadron. That use, in itself, is fine. But, transferring it to a Sra is very similar to putting a MSgt as squadron commander: Just wrong.
But, this is just me. And here's a link for the separate diamond. http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-cadet-grade-insignia-first-sergeant-chevron-p-7020.html (http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-cadet-grade-insignia-first-sergeant-chevron-p-7020.html)
Darnit! I been beaten. :P
Assuming First Sergeant insignia is authorized, it shouldn't be worn to wing activities.
Quote from: ß τ ε on February 13, 2012, 03:52:54 AM
Assuming First Sergeant insignia is authorized, it shouldn't be worn to wing activities.
It shouldn't, I do agree. But sometimes, it is all the cadet has. As for the Sra who had it, he/she could take the diamond off, as it is a separate entity entirely. For a MSgt though, I wouldn't buy 2 pairs of insignia.
Quote from: ß τ ε on February 13, 2012, 03:52:54 AM
Assuming First Sergeant insignia is authorized, it shouldn't be worn to wing activities.
Depends on the activity.
At competitions you always see people wearing them
Okay, thanks. Just checking. It looked pretty bad just loosely pinned right above his chevrons. We'll be sure to suggest that he's going to keep wearing them, to only have them on at the squadron and not to a Wing activity again. He is the highest ranking cadet in his squadron though (for at least enlisted).
Quote from: Levilockling on February 13, 2012, 03:51:50 AM
But, transferring it to a Sra is very similar to putting a MSgt as squadron commander: Just wrong.
On a personal note, my squadron did have a 2 year member SrA who was commanding the cadets... :-\
Edit: @Extremepredjudice ... really?
He should be a flight sergeant, not 1st sgt.
Edit:
Jersey, I saw the painted diamond at competitions and the other diamond at an airshow.
This diamond was never intended for cap use. It was created by Glendale or the paradestore back before vanguard sold cap items. They tried marketing it to cap/afjrotc. Then when vanguard sent out C&D letter the paradestore stopped selling them and vanguard picked them up because well they can. I have never seen one before in person.
Wait, what, really?
A C&D for a blue framed diamond? That doesn't even say CAP on it at all? Come on.
No the actual C&D was for everything else cap. They carried everything. But since the diamond was also under the cap section on paradestore website it was included.
Quote from: Noble Six on February 13, 2012, 04:45:58 AM
This diamond was never intended for cap use. It was created by Glendale or the paradestore back before vanguard sold cap items. They tried marketing it to cap/afjrotc. Then when vanguard sent out C&D letter the paradestore stopped selling them and vanguard picked them up because well they can. I have never seen one before in person.
The add-on diamond was used for Air Force First Sergeants back when the Master Sergeant ranks had six stripes down. There was a pin-on version for the small metal pin-on stripes, and a cloth version for the sleeve stripes.
People keep buying it, so Vanguard keeps making and selling it. It wasn't created for CAP, but it keeps getting used.
There is so much that is wrong here I don't know where to start.
1) Commanders are the ones who appoint people to positions. C/MSgt as commanders C/SrA as First Sergeants. Now we can argue all day long about is it approprate and the somantics of titles et al. Bottom line it is up the commander.
2) You don't take off insignia just because you are at a wing function. NEVER EVER.
3) The First Segeant diamon is still autorised as per KB. Yes it is not in 39-1 but there is a lot thing that are not in 39-1...let's all accept that 39-1 sucks and move on.
First Sergeanr is a position, not a grade. The Commander can name people to any irrregardless of grade. At one pointThe the Air Force consdered the First Sergeant as a careerfield (AFSC, MOS) beginning at SSG.
Quote from: ß τ ε on February 13, 2012, 03:51:42 AM
I guess you didn't look very hard.
Well I haven't actually looked for it. I just haven't "happened upon it" before. My fault for not specifying.
1st Sgt is a special duty in the AF for MSgt thru CMSgt. It is an 8F000.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 13, 2012, 07:32:45 PM
3) The First Segeant diamon is still autorised as per KB...
Please forgive my accronym ignorance. What's "KB".
Quote from: MSG Mac on February 13, 2012, 09:10:23 PM
...The Commander can name people to any irrregardless regardless of grade.
No offense intended, but I'm a school teacher and that one really bugs me.
Quote from: Dad2-4 on February 14, 2012, 12:07:35 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on February 13, 2012, 07:32:45 PM
3) The First Segeant diamon is still autorised as per KB...
Please forgive my accronym ignorance. What's "KB".
Quote from: MSG Mac on February 13, 2012, 09:10:23 PM
...The Commander can name people to any irrregardless regardless of grade.
No offense intended, but I'm a school teacher and that one really bugs me.
KB is Knowledge Base on the CAP web site.
Quote from: Dad2-4 on February 14, 2012, 12:07:35 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on February 13, 2012, 07:32:45 PM
3) The First Segeant diamon is still autorised as per KB...
Please forgive my accronym ignorance. What's "KB".
Quote from: MSG Mac on February 13, 2012, 09:10:23 PM
...The Commander can name people to any irrregardless regardless of grade.
No offense intended, but I'm a school teacher and that one really bugs me.
An abbreviation of the KGB, our secret commanding organization. Just kidding, it is the Knowledge Base, the CAP idea of wikipedia.
Quote from: Littleguy on February 14, 2012, 12:28:44 AM
the CAP idea of wikipedia.
Except it's not a wiki and the answers are reasonably authoritative, not the result of hundreds of edits by anonymous individuals.
A historical comment might help here.
Nowadays, C/MSgt thru C/CMSgt chevrons are available with the diamond already built-in, so to speak.
When the diamond was first created, pre-1998, IIRC, cadet NCO grades stopped at C/MSgt, and it was the old-style MSgt insignia, with no stripes going upward. The diamond was sold separately, which is what you see at the link above. My guess is that when Vanguard purchased the CAPMart inventory, these individual 1Sgt diamonds, though essentially obsolete, were in the mix.
As one of the cadets above said, the individual diamond creates confusion because you can physically match it with any insignia you want, right or wrong. Of course, the intent of the 1Sgt program is for it to go to the top 3 cadet NCO grades.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on February 14, 2012, 02:09:19 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on February 14, 2012, 12:28:44 AM
the CAP idea of wikipedia.
Except it's not a wiki and the answers are reasonably authoritative, not the result of hundreds of edits by anonymous individuals.
Wikihater? A lot of nerds sit down and make a non paid living adding correct information to articles. They are the true armchair warriors editing wikipedia so it is correct. I get it is very hard to trust, but it is an invaluable tool. Plus, any website can be full of bad info too. The only problem I commonly have with wikipedia data is it being out of data, sometimes out of date for years.
Quote from: Littleguy on February 14, 2012, 03:46:21 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on February 14, 2012, 02:09:19 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on February 14, 2012, 12:28:44 AM
the CAP idea of wikipedia.
Except it's not a wiki and the answers are reasonably authoritative, not the result of hundreds of edits by anonymous individuals.
Wikihater? A lot of nerds sit down and make a non paid living adding correct information to articles. They are the true armchair warriors editing wikipedia so it is correct. I get it is very hard to trust, but it is an invaluable tool. Plus, any website can be full of bad info too. The only problem I commonly have with wikipedia data is it being out of data, sometimes out of date for years.
Actually, I frequently use it for general information (though never for academic research or anything else in which I would rather not be wrong). However, to say that the KB is the "Wikipedia of CAP" is simply wrong, if for no other reason than the KB is not a wiki (which, by the way, is an actual term/concept and is where the brand "Wikipedia" comes from).
When I do research beyond "I'm going to go read about something today" I prefer to read things written by subject matter experts (like articles from trade organizations, for example) than someone who has made it their "life's calling" to know enough about everything to put it on Wikipedia.
Does anyone still have a CAPMart catalog? I believe the 1st Sgt diamond was listed in it.
Quote from: BillB on February 14, 2012, 04:29:45 AM
Does anyone still have a CAPMart catalog? I believe the 1st Sgt diamond was listed in it.
Yes it was.
This argument has been going on for as long as the diamond has existed AFIK.
Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock. ;)
So we've all seen the diamond used, and it's available through Vanguard, and it's not in 39-1. Where exactly is the authorization for it, or did I miss it in this thread somewhere? I don't consider KB to be authorization unless it quotes a reg or ICL. Common practice and acceptance doesn't make it correct.
Previous revisions of 52-16 contained the authorization, then people argued that 52-16 was not a uniform reg, so it was removed with the intention of adding it into the next version of 39-1.
Now you know...the rest of the story.
Quote from: Dad2-4 on February 14, 2012, 11:57:23 PMI don't consider KB to be authorization unless it quotes a reg or ICL. Common practice and acceptance doesn't make it correct
Then it is not authorized.
Quote from: Dad2-4 on February 14, 2012, 11:57:23 PM
So we've all seen the diamond used, and it's available through Vanguard, and it's not in 39-1. Where exactly is the authorization for it, or did I miss it in this thread somewhere? I don't consider KB to be authorization unless it quotes a reg or ICL. Common practice and acceptance doesn't make it correct.
The position of first sgt and flight sgt are both talked about in CAPP 52-15 'Cadet Staff Handbook'. The particular organization of the cadets is actually up to the squadron itself. Page 42 and 43 give a synopsis of the duties and expectations that generally entail what being a 1st sgt is.
I think a previous version of the Cadet Program regulations had a reference that only a master sergeant (the three grades) could be a first sergeant. But, I have not be able to locate the reference. KB appears to agree by it's reference to the same policy in USAF "... it follows the Air Force model for first sergeants who are either MSgts, SMSgts, or CMSgts ".
IMHO The diamond insignia for a first sergeant looks odd when worn separately with c/SSgt or c/TSgt as compared with the embedded diamond that is worn in the master sergeant insignia.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on February 14, 2012, 03:53:04 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on February 14, 2012, 03:46:21 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on February 14, 2012, 02:09:19 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on February 14, 2012, 12:28:44 AM
the CAP idea of wikipedia.
Except it's not a wiki and the answers are reasonably authoritative, not the result of hundreds of edits by anonymous individuals.
Wikihater? A lot of nerds sit down and make a non paid living adding correct information to articles. They are the true armchair warriors editing wikipedia so it is correct. I get it is very hard to trust, but it is an invaluable tool. Plus, any website can be full of bad info too. The only problem I commonly have with wikipedia data is it being out of data, sometimes out of date for years.
Actually, I frequently use it for general information (though never for academic research or anything else in which I would rather not be wrong). However, to say that the KB is the "Wikipedia of CAP" is simply wrong, if for no other reason than the KB is not a wiki (which, by the way, is an actual term/concept and is where the brand "Wikipedia" comes from).
When I do research beyond "I'm going to go read about something today" I prefer to read things written by subject matter experts (like articles from trade organizations, for example) than someone who has made it their "life's calling" to know enough about everything to put it on Wikipedia.
Same here. I simply over did that, sorry.
IMHO, I think NHQ should tell Vanguard to discontinue selling it, because it is no longer needed.
Quote from: SarDragon on February 15, 2012, 03:58:43 AM
IMHO, I think NHQ should tell Vanguard to discontinue selling it, because it is no longer needed.
That would certainly solve a lot of argument. ;D
Quote from: SarDragon on February 15, 2012, 03:58:43 AM
IMHO, I think NHQ should tell Vanguard to discontinue selling it, because it is no longer needed.
Yeah, right. ::) Vanguard give up a source of revenue? :o Not frickin likely!
Quote from: PHall on February 15, 2012, 05:40:39 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on February 15, 2012, 03:58:43 AM
IMHO, I think NHQ should tell Vanguard to discontinue selling it, because it is no longer needed.
Yeah, right. ::) Vanguard give up a source of revenue? :o Not frickin likely!
Why not?
I don't hold Vanguard in the "evil conspiracy" box.
How many of these things do you think they sell in a year? I bet they pay more to the inventory clerk every year, for the length of time it takes to do that inventory, than they make selling 1st Sgt diamonds.
They make great "Sergeant Major" insignia on a set of epaulet sleeves. >:D
For those C/Maj who minor in First Sergeant.
Quote from: Ground_Pounder on February 15, 2012, 12:29:50 AM
The position of first sgt and flight sgt are both talked about in CAPP 52-15 'Cadet Staff Handbook'. The particular organization of the cadets is actually up to the squadron itself. Page 42 and 43 give a synopsis of the duties and expectations that generally entail what being a 1st sgt is.
Not questioning the existence of the position of first sergeant. What I'm not seeing is the authorization for the diamond for CAP cadet use.
It's currently on the Island of Misfit Regs.
If you don't accept the KB's opinion, and have the local authority in that regard, so be it.
Quote from: HGjunkie on February 15, 2012, 07:51:25 PM
Why have I never seen that before?? Is that painted on or a real insignia? I've only seen them at an encampment or two as a staff position, and usually they just have the first sgt diamond because they couldn't find any airforce equivalent to the command chief insignia, without actually using USAF command chief insignia.
-Modified from " I've seen a lot of command chiefs at places like encampment." to "I've only seen them at an encampment or two as a staff position" to create less chance of misinterpretation :)
Quote from: GTRanger on February 16, 2012, 05:30:14 PM
Quote from: HGjunkie on February 15, 2012, 07:51:25 PM
Why have I never seen that before?? Is that painted on or a real insignia? I've seen a lot of command chiefs at places like encampment, and usually they just have the first sgt diamond because they couldn't find any airforce equivalent to the command chief insignia, without actually using USAF command chief insignia.
Command chief definitely isn't authorized.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on February 16, 2012, 05:32:24 PM
Quote from: GTRanger on February 16, 2012, 05:30:14 PM
Quote from: HGjunkie on February 15, 2012, 07:51:25 PM
Why have I never seen that before?? Is that painted on or a real insignia? I've seen a lot of command chiefs at places like encampment, and usually they just have the first sgt diamond because they couldn't find any airforce equivalent to the command chief insignia, without actually using USAF command chief insignia.
Command chief definitely isn't authorized.
That's what I guessed. although it looks cool, that insignia is out of regs. bummer. :(
This has been going on since at least 1990. I was presented and wore the stand alone diamond as a cadet back then. I didnt get mine till I was a c/tsgt, though some of the smaller squadrons had a c/sgt as their top. We wore it to squadron, group, and wing activities, and when we were addressed we were addressed as first sgt.
Again, they need to update 39-1 >:(
Quote from: GroundHawg on February 16, 2012, 07:09:18 PMAgain, they need to update 39-1 >:(
Ramen to that Brother!
Quote from: GTRanger on February 16, 2012, 11:50:41 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on February 16, 2012, 10:44:49 PM
Quote from: JerseyCadet on February 16, 2012, 10:12:20 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on February 16, 2012, 09:59:55 PM
Quote from: GroundHawg on February 16, 2012, 07:09:18 PMAgain, they need to update 39-1 >:(
Ramen to that Brother!
Pastafarian?
Of course....have you been touched by his noodely goodness? 8)
Lol
Okay... off topic. ;) [End noodely off- topicness]
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Touched_by_His_Noodly_Appendage.jpg)
Just out of curiosity, where'd you find the picture of the Command Chief insignia, HGjunkie? I'm curious as to the origins of the insignia (who made it/had it made, why)
Quote from: titanII on February 17, 2012, 04:14:06 AM
Just out of curiosity, where'd you find the picture of the Command Chief insignia, HGjunkie? I'm curious as to the origins of the insignia (who made it/had it made, why)
A friend of mine (he's a Cadet Officer) actually sent it to me, so I have no dice on the origins.
Quote from: HGjunkie on February 17, 2012, 09:54:56 PM
Quote from: titanII on February 17, 2012, 04:14:06 AM
Just out of curiosity, where'd you find the picture of the Command Chief insignia, HGjunkie? I'm curious as to the origins of the insignia (who made it/had it made, why)
A friend of mine (he's a Cadet Officer) actually sent it to me, so I have no dice on the origins.
ah..... Too bad.