In the latest issue of the Volunteer magazine, in the article on cadet fitness (pages 18-21), there was this statement: "The National Cadet Advisory Council is currently debating the fitness test standards."
The context of the statement make it sound like the standards may be lowered in the near future. Also, another cadet officer told me that he heard that fitness standards may be lowered when he was on a region conference call.
I am adamently opposed to standards being lowered (I actually think CAP should raise their pt standards). What would you guys think of that if it happened?
The standards should have a different scoring system IMO. The 2/3 and 1/2 system we have right now works fine, but a scoring method that rewards cadets for excelling in certain parts of the test to make-up lower scores in other areas would help those who can't manage certain parts of it (Ex. a cadet who sucks at push-ups but can knock out a ton of sit-ups, or cadets who can run a really fast mile but do somewhat poorly on the shuttle run or pushups/sit-ups/sit and reach). At minimum, keep the standards the same, but implement a different scoring system.
Now, I'm all for the standards being raised, but I know that would cause certain problems in my squadron where some cadets already struggle with PT.
I say raise em'. It was the major driving point of me actually exercising, and I've been losing weight ever since, the only bigger factor is that I wanted to impress my adopt a soldier with progress that he contributed to :) (he is a hero). Lowering the standards isn't good when we have obesity/overweight problems in the U.S . It would also make us look "weak" IMO.
The CAC debates and considers a lot of things, I would not get too worried about it...
The current model that was adopted was done so because it is aligned with actual researched data from the President's Council on Physical Fitness. Selecting another model leaves our fitness program to a group of people who magically decide what standards should be. Why should a mile be run in 7:42 for a cadet earning the Lindberg Achievement, other than it 'sounds like a good number'?
The current system takes into consideration biological differences at different ages and genders, as well as has scientific data to support the standards presented.
I would drop the entire system as it is right now.
The problem with it is....if you get a cadet with a weight/PT problem then they stop advancing.
We have cadets who have problems passing the Achievement 1 PT standars.....six months into the program and they are still C/AB. So they get a doctors note saying they are CAT IV and then they never have to PT again.
I would rather adopt a program where each cadet is supposed to do exercise 3 days a week for 30 minutes a day.
They log their work out......and get their parents/gym teacher/sports coach to sign off and we are done.
That way every cadet even those on CAT IV will have to do something.
It will also relave the need to hold a PT tesing session.
That even makes more sense with the goal of promoting overall fitness/wellness.
Our program is about objective goals, not checking a box.
Remove proctored PT and you might as well make the whole thing a correspondence course and shut down.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 21, 2011, 05:06:52 AM
The problem with it is....if you get a cadet with a weight/PT problem then they stop advancing.
We have cadets who have problems passing the Achievement 1 PT standars.....six months into the program and they are still C/AB. So they get a doctors note saying they are CAT IV and then they never have to PT again.
That sounds to me like an attitude problem for your cadet,
and possibly a culture problem for your unit.
My cadets (and they aren't all skinny) pass their PT tests almost universally every month.
If someone fails, they don't repeat fail the following month.
And the typical failure is after someone changes pt phase and/or increases in age and the standards adjust
The NCO's and officers are in a competition to see who can do the most pushups and situps and run the fastest,
and the airmen see that and follow on accordingly.
Even "fat kids" can meet the phase 1 standards... they are really just that easy. If they aren't meeting them, then they aren't trying, most likely because they don't care. Shouldn't we be teaching our cadets how to motivate their subordinates to do something that is /completely/ attainable?
The only cadet I have in cat 4 is in it because of a permanent medical condition, not obesity.
Quote from: coudano on May 21, 2011, 04:35:39 PM
otivate their subordinates to do something that is /completely/ attainable?
The only cadet I have in cat 4 is in it because of a permanent medical condition, not obesity.
which points to the problem. Obesity is a medical condition, not just a motivation issue.
so in your view, an obese cadet has no business in CAP because they can't do PT?
Quote from: jimmydeanno on May 21, 2011, 04:56:58 AM
The current model that was adopted was done so because it is aligned with actual researched data from the President's Council on Physical Fitness. Selecting another model leaves our fitness program to a group of people who magically decide what standards should be. Why should a mile be run in 7:42 for a cadet earning the Lindberg Achievement, other than it 'sounds like a good number'?
The current system takes into consideration biological differences at different ages and genders, as well as has scientific data to support the standards presented.
Also looks like it is gradual conditioning the longer you are in the program/higher achievements and is based upon percentile (ranging from 25 to 75%) of the national presidential committee testing results ??? (I can't seem to find the internet source our standards are based upon).
IF there were any changes I would assume that they would decrease the percentile for certain achievements based upon that standard.
Information on the definition of statistical percentile can be found at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentile
RM
Quote from: cap235629 on May 21, 2011, 05:20:19 PM
Quote from: coudano on May 21, 2011, 04:35:39 PM
otivate their subordinates to do something that is /completely/ attainable?
The only cadet I have in cat 4 is in it because of a permanent medical condition, not obesity.
which points to the problem. Obesity is a medical condition, not just a motivation issue.
so in your view, an obese cadet has no business in CAP because they can't do PT?
If you can get an MD to sign the letter saying that an obese cadet's condition is a permanent medical condition. Then they can be put in Cat IV.
At our squadron we have several cadets who really struggle to meet the PT regs, but excell at all other aspects. I hate watching them remain Airmen Basics because of PT.
One Idea our squadron has come up with for a replacement (note, this is only an idea, we do not do this) is to have everyone's first pt #s recorded, then pass them for their curry. they would then need to improve thise numbers to pass the next time. this would allow those who are less able to advance farther into the cadet program.
Opinions on this??
^ That was one of the initial ideas I had when thinking about what could replace our current PT program. However, I quickly realized that cadets and seniors would realize that all they have to do is tell the cadet to run the mile in 18 minutes the first time. Then they only need to do it in 17:58 the next.
So then if you try to fix that problem by establishing a baseline, where do you come up with those numbers?
If you try to fix it with a % improvement for each achievement (say 5%) then you have a mathematical nightmare for every PT night. Plus, who says that 5% is the right number?
So, you end up trying to find researched information, which brings you to the study conducted by the PCOPF which says that this is how kids performed in a nationwide study, based on gender and age.
I'd say a 5% improvement is reasonable for a two month period. In this particular case, Excel Spreadsheets (or Open Office, or a Google Doc for that matter) are your friend. Set up a spreadsheet with all of your cadets, their current fitness scores and create an equation that subtracts 5%. Mathematical nightmare? Hardly. On the other hand, if you do implement a system like that, then you may see a corresponding increase in your staff cadets' math scores in school, if you make them do it the old-fashioned way. Not a shabby system.
Having said that, I'm personally in favor of an absolute standard, as opposed to a subjective one. A point system would not be a bad idea, however. I'd agree that as cadets grow, and age, their physical fitness strengths and weaknesses are going to change. A point system while maintaining the same percentiles would allow for an "average" fitness level while maintaining an objective standard.
Just my $.02 (in 1985 money, adjusted for inflation).
Quote from: cap235629 on May 21, 2011, 05:20:19 PM
Quote from: coudano on May 21, 2011, 04:35:39 PM
otivate their subordinates to do something that is /completely/ attainable?
The only cadet I have in cat 4 is in it because of a permanent medical condition, not obesity.
which points to the problem. Obesity is a medical condition, not just a motivation issue.
so in your view, an obese cadet has no business in CAP because they can't do PT?
There are people who are obese because of a medical issue, and those who are fat because their lifestyle sucks. Put the first group in Cat IV if needed,and tell the second group to manage their diet and start exercising. Those are the folks we are addressing here.
Before I moved to a senior squadron, I was in a composite squadron. I would get out and do the PT test with them. It was really sad to be an out-of-shape, 55 yo who-runs-twice-a-month-whether-he-needs-to-or-not, who could run a mile faster than half the cadets in the unit.
Quote from: cap235629 on May 21, 2011, 05:20:19 PM
Quote from: coudano on May 21, 2011, 04:35:39 PM
otivate their subordinates to do something that is /completely/ attainable?
The only cadet I have in cat 4 is in it because of a permanent medical condition, not obesity.
which points to the problem. Obesity is a medical condition, not just a motivation issue.
so in your view, an obese cadet has no business in CAP because they can't do PT?
That's a pretty strong jump from my position don't you think?
I have, have had, and expect to have in the future, obese cadets in my squadron.
They failed at first, but worked their butts off and now pass their PT test; and lead subordinate cadets in doing the same. I'd call that having a place in CAP, wouldn't you?
For the record, passing a CPFT once a month isn't going to fix a cadet's weight, diet, and exercise issues.
However the confidence of working for and attaining fitness goals, even small ones, not to mention fitting in and identifying with a program and a group of people that profess and practice physically fit lifestyle, is *CERTAINLY* one component of what they need to work for a healthy lifestyle.
Quote from: PHallIf you can get an MD to sign the letter saying that an obese cadet's condition is a permanent medical condition. Then they can be put in Cat IV.
Realizing, that if you look hard enough, you can find /some/ doctor to say and prescribe almost anything...
*IF* a doctor says they can't exercise, then they can't exercise.
Otherwise, suck it up, run, and push!
QuoteThe NCO's and officers are in a competition to see who can do the most pushups and situps and run the fastest,
and the airmen see that and follow on accordingly.
Even "fat kids" can meet the phase 1 standards... they are really just that easy. If they aren't meeting them, then they aren't trying, most likely because they don't care. Shouldn't we be teaching our cadets how to motivate their subordinates to do something that is /completely/ attainable?
The only cadet I have in cat 4 is in it because of a permanent medical condition, not obesity.
Same with my squadron. All staff have friendly competitions every pt test to do better than the next person. This definitely sets a good standard for basics to follow.
Quote from: BGNightfall on May 21, 2011, 06:38:24 PM
I'd say a 5% improvement is reasonable for a two month period. In this particular case, Excel Spreadsheets (or Open Office, or a Google Doc for that matter) are your friend. Set up a spreadsheet with all of your cadets, their current fitness scores and create an equation that subtracts 5%. Mathematical nightmare? Hardly. On the other hand, if you do implement a system like that, then you may see a corresponding increase in your staff cadets' math scores in school, if you make them do it the old-fashioned way. Not a shabby system.
Having said that, I'm personally in favor of an absolute standard, as opposed to a subjective one. A point system would not be a bad idea, however. I'd agree that as cadets grow, and age, their physical fitness strengths and weaknesses are going to change. A point system while maintaining the same percentiles would allow for an "average" fitness level while maintaining an objective standard.
Just my $.02 (in 1985 money, adjusted for inflation).
The only problem with the 5% improvement is that i do very well on pt, (i.e. 116 push ups) and a 5% increase would be harder to attain. maybe a 5% increase if you do not meet a numerical standard? so you would have pt passed first time with your numbers recorded. this would then have to either be improved by 5%, or meet the regs that are existing for the next promotion.
That's largely the reason I advocate an objective standard. I was only pointing out that calculating 5% of anything, even on a large scale is not a logistical nightmare with even a rudimentary amount of fore-planning.
On a point system (which is what was in place prior to the current CPFT, btw) a cadet could manage to get by with having a very high score in a single category until after they'd gotten their Mitchell award. Since that was not promoting all-around fitness, the move was made to the current CPFT.
Honestly, I'm not against a standard where a cadet has to make a commitment to passing it... I'm pretty sure one of the goals of the CPFT is to promote a fitness-lifestyle. Short answer: If your cadets aren't advancing because of the CPFT, don't lower the standards on the test, raise the bar on your leadership.
Do both.
Have an objective standard as the high end.
And have an "improvement" standard or a "participation" standard for those who have not met the current PT standards.
As I said before......my real heart burn with CAP PT program is that it takes too much time away from doing our leadership program.
A good physical fitness life style is not one day a month.
I want to correct that.......but I can't do CAP four times a week (one for leadership and three PT).
We leave behind (i.e. they quit or do not join in the first place) many cadets who cannot meet the current PT standards.
The few that do join end up getting stymied because they just can't pass the PT standard and they don't have the time, motivation or simple physical ability to pass it.
We have one cadet....a big boy in the old southern sense....not really fat....but big. But he never got passed c/Sra due to PT. He got frustrated and would disappear for a few months come back.....fail PT again and then disappear.
I think that CAP would be better served and we would better serve our target audience if we dropped the "standard" as is and changed it to a "what have you done this week" sort of standard.
A standard that makes them do something....walk 2 miles or run 1. Ride your bike for 30 minutes. Do 10000 sit ups. 100 push ups.
Run in place for 15 minutes 3 times a week.
Log your activity and be done with it. So everyone must do some sort of exercise even the CAT IV and everyone improves their physical fitness by doing what is recommended by most heath authorities (30 minutes 3 days a week).
Quote from: lordmonar on May 22, 2011, 07:51:46 PM
Do both.
Have an objective standard as the high end.
And have an "improvement" standard or a "participation" standard for those who have not met the current PT standards.
As I said before......my real heart burn with CAP PT program is that it takes too much time away from doing our leadership program.
A good physical fitness life style is not one day a month.
I want to correct that.......but I can't do CAP four times a week (one for leadership and three PT).
We leave behind (i.e. they quit or do not join in the first place) many cadets who cannot meet the current PT standards.
The few that do join end up getting stymied because they just can't pass the PT standard and they don't have the time, motivation or simple physical ability to pass it.
We have one cadet....a big boy in the old southern sense....not really fat....but big. But he never got passed c/Sra due to PT. He got frustrated and would disappear for a few months come back.....fail PT again and then disappear.
I think that CAP would be better served and we would better serve our target audience if we dropped the "standard" as is and changed it to a "what have you done this week" sort of standard.
A standard that makes them do something....walk 2 miles or run 1. Ride your bike for 30 minutes. Do 10000 sit ups. 100 push ups.
Run in place for 15 minutes 3 times a week.
Log your activity and be done with it. So everyone must do some sort of exercise even the CAT IV and everyone improves their physical fitness by doing what is recommended by most heath authorities (30 minutes 3 days a week).
+1,000,000,000
The only problem with such a system is verification. You would hope that cadets would not lie, the core values and all that, but the fact is that some will. Even requiring parental verification could be a problem, I have met parents that would lie for their kid in a heartbeat if they thought it would make their life easier. It would likely become apparent over time though if the cadet insists they are working out, but they are not improving on the CPFT every month.
You do bend PT into a leadership training opportunity, right?
Having your NCO's conduct the whole show...
Leading warmups;
Doing everything;
Making sure things finish on schedule;
Shuffling troops around, here and there...
We have a senior member "present"
but PT is run by the NCO's.
With mild creativity, you can turn almost everything into leadership training.
Yup. Sounds like our PT.
It is bang for the buck.
A PT day is less productive as a leadership lab IMHO then what we do on our normal meetings.
That coupled with the results of our PT efforts. One PT night a month does not make a healthy lifestyle. I would like to find a system that balances our desire to have objective standards, something that actually pushes the cadets to exercise three times a week, and something that does not lock out our lower 10% with no or little hope of progressing.
What are you doing on your off-pt nights that renders so much more positive llab than pt?
Because we get some pretty good mileage out of PT for our cadet leaders.
OTOH back in the journal days, cadets just pencil whipped their ex reqs.
Or simply didn't do them at all, without any checking or enforcement from the squadron.
You really think that cadets that (obviously) aren't willing to actually do the exercise at home needed to pass pt standards are going to actually do the exercise at home to satisfy some journal requirement?
How does this improve the 'physical fitness' element of the cadet program over what we have now?
Or do you think we should just eliminate physical fitness as an element of the program all together?
Well I will admit......I personally think we just need to drop the PT standards all together.
I want to focus on leadership. PT is just a PITA IMHO.
The alternitive is to just lower the standards.....why did anyone pick the 75% for being a Spaatz?
An alternifitve to simply do a base line at Curry and allow promotions if they increase by 5% or until the hit the standards.
My bottom line is that I would rather do other leadership instruction instead of spending the night doing kick ball and the PT test.
I think that the PT program scares away potential cadets and is a major reason why other cadets don't progress.
Currently the only way abound it is to get the cadets to get a doctor to sign off on a CAT IV....which is not really the intent of that program.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2011, 07:23:55 PMI think that the PT program scares away potential cadets and is a major reason why other cadets don't progress.
It scares them because the rest of their world consists of x-box and a groove in the couch. We can't fix the ills of society, but that doesn't mean
we should cave because cadets struggle with the standard - the struggle is the point, and many parents and cadets seek us out for those standards and
objective goals.
Besides, who said you can't impart leadership lessons during PT? Not to mention team-building, encouraging others, etc. Done correctly PT can be a lot of fun, and everyone is always harping on how we've squeezed the "fun" out of CAP.
So you'd add more "leadership" to the program and lose PT?
Quote from: Eclipse on May 24, 2011, 07:39:47 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2011, 07:23:55 PMI think that the PT program scares away potential cadets and is a major reason why other cadets don't progress.
It scares them because the rest of their world consists of x-box and a groove in the couch. We can't fix the ills of society, but that doesn't mean
we should cave because cadets struggle with the standard - the struggle is the point, and many parents and cadets seek us out for those standards and
objective goals.
Besides, who said you can't impart leadership lessons during PT? Not to mention team-building, encouraging others, etc. Done correctly PT can be a lot of fun, and everyone is always harping on how we've squeezed the "fun" out of CAP.
So you'd add more "leadership" to the program and lose PT?
Precisely.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2011, 07:23:55 PM
Currently the only way abound it is to get the cadets to get a doctor to sign off on a CAT IV....which is not really the intent of that program.
Or to, you know...
exercise some self discipline (that's chapter 1 leadership, btw)
and work out throughout the week and month so that you can pass when the CPFT comes around
CAP CP is a 'military model'.
And the military requires PT.
Quote from: EclipseSo you'd add more "leadership" to the program and lose PT?
More specifically, how?
Please demonstrate for me (with a lesson plan or some similar list of content) the 24 contact hours a year that would yield better leadership results than cadet-run PT, specifically in addition to and separate from what you are already doing on the other 3 nights a month.
Quote from: coudano on May 24, 2011, 08:05:56 PMQuote from: EclipseSo you'd add more "leadership" to the program and lose PT?
More specifically, how?
Please demonstrate for me (with a lesson plan or some similar list of content) the 24 contact hours a year that would yield better leadership results than cadet-run PT, specifically in addition to and separate from what you are already doing on the other 3 nights a month.
You misunderstood - I was asking, not telling. I don't agree with the idea either. Lord said PT was a PITA and he'd rather replace it
with more "leadership", which to me sounds like more drill or sitting around.
QuoteYou misunderstood - I was asking, not telling. I don't agree with the idea either. Lord said PT was a PITA and he'd rather replace it
with more "leadership", which to me sounds like more drill or sitting around.
I understood, I was taking your statement, elaborating on it, and intended it to be re-directed back to lordmonar.
PT shouldn't be taken out completely, but I like the idea of it being a benchmark on how well the cadets are progressing in their personal fitness routines. If the cadets are actually exercising at home, the month-to-month evaluations should steadily improve. I think that's what we should be focusing on.
If the cadets are earnestly exercising at home,
then the CPFT is a breeze.
I've heard another proposal floated, to make participation PT based, rather than promotions.
For example, the military only does PT testing twice a year (or once, in some cases)
You have to pass that one test, then you're golden for a year.
If you don't pass it, you have to go on a remedial fitness plan and so on, until you do pass it;
and eventually you can even be thrown out of the military.
However, i've watched people do REALLY stupid stuff to pass that one test,
crash diets, drugs, and so on.
that is far far far more unhealthy than regular testing and even better, a lifestyle of practicing fitness and diet control.
I think that eliminating the PT altogether sends the wrong message. I think it tells kids that obesity is OK. Education is an important part of leadership, but so is using what you learn to improve. So, we educate a cadet (future leader) about nutrition, importance of exercise, the importance of being healthy as it pertains to accomplishing the mission, etc. and then they opt not to use that education.
Part of our program is pushing our cadets to do things that they otherwise wouldn't do. Getting them off the sofa and running occasionally isn't a bad thing and fitness is a vital part of a well-rounded (no pun intended) leader.
Quote from: http://www.schriever.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123154601[/quote
Leadership is about being self-motivated, setting the example, and "practicing what you preach." Our Air Force leaders are telling us it is important to them and the nation for us to make fitness a part of our daily routine. It is up to us to execute that directive and do our best (excellence in all we do) to continue to improve.
Quote from: http://www.startribune.com/business/80964807.html[/quote
Physical fitness is a key to leadership, and not just for soldiers:
Gen. David Petraeus has a clear view of leadership, as Maj. John Patrick Gallagher recounts in the book "Leadership Lessons of the White House Fellows," by Charles Garcia. One day when Petraeus was a colonel in the 82nd Airborne Division, he asked his soldiers to name the number one leadership priority of the brigade.
Integrity? Marksmanship? No, the correct answer turned out to be physical fitness. The brigade thought Petraeus was joking, until the colonel began leading his soldiers through an intensive 75-minute exercise drill every morning. And soon his point became clear: The workouts drove the brigade to greater alertness and energy, as well as more pride in themselves and their unit.
As Gallagher puts it, "Self-discipline and being able to perform under pressure and exist outside our comfort zone would be the key that unlocked our success."
The word "exercise" derives from a Latin root that means "to maintain, to keep, to hold off." To me, that means I should exercise to maintain my health, to keep my sanity and to ward off the temptations that lead me down unhealthy paths. I spend at least 60 minutes a day walking, jogging, swimming or lifting weights.
What we consider "exercise" today is really a natural part of life, but in our current world, we have to make a conscious effort to make it part of our daily routine. Just a few generations ago, walking was a major form of transportation! Our evolution from hunters and gatherers, who walked to get from one area to another, to a sedentary automobile/train/plane civilization has forced us to look at exercise in a different way... continued in link above
The PT standards are fine. If you run every other day for a month, you will pass the mile run. It's pathetic that people are complaining about it. Fitness is one of the most important things within CAP, cadets are training to be part of the AF right?
Quote from: ElectricPenguin on May 24, 2011, 09:36:30 PM
cadets are training to be part of the AF right?
Not a lot of cadets i've met actually want to go AF. I've met a lot of cadets who want to be Marines and Army though.
MOST of my cadets don't go into the military at all.
Encourage NCC/Color Guard/Drill Team Competition participation and those cadets will be motivated to improve their mile times. That motivation is contagious. I think the gap between male and female times is greater than it should be. NCC gives 1:30 to the girls times, and I'd like to see that gap be matched in the PFT requirements.
Currently, my squadron has one former cadet who graduated last year from the Air Force Academy, one who is finishing up his first-classman (senior) year at the Air Force Academy, one who is finishing up his senior year at Westpoint, one finishing up his plebe year at the Naval Academy, one who heads off to the Merchant Marine Academy in less than a month, a couple cadets in ROTC at Embry-Riddle, and many other cadets who have gone various routes into the military. Oh, and my squadron only consists of about 20 cadets at any one time. :clap:
P.T. at my squadron has given them a little bit of the drive they need to accomplish their high goals. Standards are there for a reason -- keep them high.
Quote from: pilot2b on May 25, 2011, 12:03:02 AM
Currently, my squadron has one former cadet who graduated last year from the Air Force Academy, one who is finishing up his first-classman (senior) year at the Air Force Academy, one who is finishing up his senior year at Westpoint, etc...
similar in my squadron. I only know of one or two cadets that didn't join CAP "because I want to go into the (insert service here)".
Quote from: coudano on May 24, 2011, 12:29:21 PM
You do bend PT into a leadership training opportunity, right?
Having your NCO's conduct the whole show...
Leading warmups;
Doing everything;
Making sure things finish on schedule;
Shuffling troops around, here and there...
We have a senior member "present"
but PT is run by the NCO's.
With mild creativity, you can turn almost everything into leadership training.
Also, keep in mind that according to CAPP 52-15 the key duties of the first sergeant include "Lead Cadets in PT. As first sergeant, you will lead cadets in fitness games and drills, and ensure cadets warm-up and cool-down properly. You are expected to be a great motivator during all fitness events."
my squadron has had our fair share of military academy goers, and i personally don't think PT did much for them because they were already motivated to be here in CAP. I personally am really bad at PT, but i would rather them make it more hardcore and strenuous than pathetically easy. :)
I understand why the PT requirement exists. I support such a requirement. I also know that, after completing the entire program, the list of things I am thankful for experiencing does not include the Spaatz PT test.
CAP is a leadership program, and we have SO MUCH to offer cadets. Even fat, out-of-shape cadets.
If this were a perfect world, I would advocate that consistent exercise be a requirement without actual standardized PT tests being required. I want cadets to try their hardest to get in shape, but not have to tell a cadet that. at 300 pounds, they aren't going to get the chance to command or learn higher-level leadership.
Let's be perfectly honest. An obese cadet stuck at C/Amn has little incentive to drop the weight. He doesn't even know what he's missing. It's easier just to drop out, and given that obesity isn't exactly easy to fight anyway, what's stopping him?
On the other hand, give a cadet a command position, force him to be a role-model for subordinates, and you have a MUCH greater chance of seeing that weight disappear. I only started taking working out seriously when I felt I needed to outrun everyone in the flight I had been assigned to command.
I'd be all for finding some better way to encourage a healthy, active lifestyle without compromising any cadet's ability to experience everything else CAP has to offer.
I miss the point system that went away right before I joined.
Minimum of X points overall. Potential minimum X points on each event.
That way we REALLY focused on cadet strengths. Suck at running? Pump out the pushups and situps. Suck at those? Work that mile time down. Etc.
That's true, but we also want to work on overall fitness, not just one specific portion of the test.
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on May 30, 2011, 10:38:53 PM
I miss the point system that went away right before I joined.
Minimum of X points overall. Potential minimum X points on each event.
That way we REALLY focused on cadet strengths. Suck at running? Pump out the pushups and situps. Suck at those? Work that mile time down. Etc.
How do you miss something that you never participated in? It's like me saying that I miss President Kennedy.
I went through the cadet program when the point system was in place. It wasn't all it is cracked up to be. The standards were such that you didn't even have to do two of the events until around the Mitchell. So, if you can do 60 situps in 2 minutes, you could get yourself to C/MSgt. Want your Mitchell? Do 60 Situps and V-Sit 5cm.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on May 31, 2011, 03:21:37 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on May 30, 2011, 10:38:53 PM
I miss the point system that went away right before I joined.
Minimum of X points overall. Potential minimum X points on each event.
That way we REALLY focused on cadet strengths. Suck at running? Pump out the pushups and situps. Suck at those? Work that mile time down. Etc.
How do you miss something that you never participated in? It's like me saying that I miss President Kennedy.
I went through the cadet program when the point system was in place. It wasn't all it is cracked up to be. The standards were such that you didn't even have to do two of the events until around the Mitchell. So, if you can do 60 situps in 2 minutes, you could get yourself to C/MSgt. Want your Mitchell? Do 60 Situps and V-Sit 5cm.
Miss it because I got the olde books to start with. I also never earned the Feik, even though I joined right when it went live. Sometimes units aren't high speed, and transitions take too long.
PT night is a night for the fitness testing of cadets. It detirmines if a cadet is physically fit to promote. CAP can do as much PT as they want to in a PT night, but PT is not supposed to be full workout night. Once a month PT should not be a Cadet's only workout. It should be on the Cadet's responsibility to keep themselves fit because one session a month won't work out.
My point is that PT should only be a night for fitness testing , not training. PT also does not have to take up the entire meeting, so a game, leadership lesson, or a team building activity could also fill in the rest of the time gap.
Quote from: Nnd on November 27, 2012, 10:55:28 PM
PT night is a night for the fitness testing of cadets. It detirmines if a cadet is physically fit to promote. CAP can do as much PT as they want to in a PT night, but PT is not supposed to be full workout night. Once a month PT should not be a Cadet's only workout. It should be on the Cadet's responsibility to keep themselves fit because one session a month won't work out.
My point is that PT should only be a night for fitness testing , not training. PT also does not have to take up the entire meeting, so a game, leadership lesson, or a team building activity could also fill in the rest of the time gap.
Please show me where in the regulations it says that PT night is supposed to only be about fitness testing? A squadron with physical fitness issues could easily schedule two nights with an hour of physical training a month for a period of time to encourage more fitness. I'd like to point out that PT stands for "Physical Training," and CPFT stands for the "Cadet Physical Fitness Test."
I can show you in the regulation where it specifically says that the CAP PT program is about more than JUST testing.
Having said all that I agree that we need to lower or do away with the CAP PT standards....the are just not realistic.
Quote from: lordmonar on November 28, 2012, 12:37:46 AM
the are just not realistic.
You keep saying that, but I keep seeing cadets strive for and accomplish their goals with regards to PT.
Quote from: Nnd on November 27, 2012, 10:55:28 PM
PT night is a night for the fitness testing of cadets. It detirmines if a cadet is physically fit to promote. CAP can do as much PT as they want to in a PT night, but PT is not supposed to be full workout night. Once a month PT should not be a Cadet's only workout. It should be on the Cadet's responsibility to keep themselves fit because one session a month won't work out.
My point is that PT should only be a night for fitness testing , not training. PT also does not have to take up the entire meeting, so a game, leadership lesson, or a team building activity could also fill in the rest of the time gap.
Everyone else's point is that one or two PT night's a month, testing Must be done, but the rest of the PT meetings should be used for PT, not the CPFT, but PT. Take it from someone who is 27, and started PT around the age of 14, and hasn't stopped. PT is teaching you how to train. It teaches you what to do to train muscles to perform, yes, you train muscles to perform.
No one here said PT night should be the only time cadets do PT, just that it is likely the only time they will. PT should be done at leastevery two or three days, personally, I prefer every day, but that is coming from an Army guy who did PT every day. Running, pushups, and situps should be an every day activity.
Quote from: coudano on November 28, 2012, 01:16:25 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on November 28, 2012, 12:37:46 AM
the are just not realistic.
You keep saying that, but I keep seeing cadets strive for and accomplish their goals with regards to PT.
If anything they are somewhere between spot on and too lax. Granted, the average PWIISXer is going to need oxygen the first few tries, but they are in line with what a reasonably healthy kid or that relative age should be capable of doing. Though today I am aged, infirmed, and essentially
broken beyond repair, through my teen years I could have run rings around most cadets, and I was far from an athlete. Mainly because we walked everywhere we went, and more then occasionally were running away from this that or the other. Thanks to some "creative" use of my vehicle,
I was chained to a bicycle well into early 20's for college, work, everything.
My two kids have two speeds - still and full run, but many of their peers have nothing but overdeveloped thumbs, and have to get a ride from
mom to come down the street.
By the time you're into Spaatz, it's a fair push for anyone, but Phase 1 is basic fitness.
I've never looked, but how well are they aligned with the Presidential Physical Fitness Award?
The CP pt standard *IS* the presidential fitness award.
phase 1 asks cadets to perform at the 25th percentile level at their age group.
spaatz asks cadets to perform at the 75th percentile level at their age group.
That's right, to get promoted to airman, you have to be only at or above the bottom 1/4th of American youth as measured by the presidential fitness standard.
Seriously... ANYBODY with a little motivation and practice, can do that.
Also I don't know how much validity this holds, but I think that the Mitchell requirement has historically been based on basic training accession standards... Let's see, we ask a 17+ year old male going for the mitchell to:
Sit and Reach: 34
Curl Ups: 44
Push Ups: 37
Shuttle Run: 9.4
Mile Run: 7:04
Supposing that the cadet kept up the 7:04 pace for an additional half mile, that'd be a 10:36 mile and a half.
SO if that cadet went and did the USAF PT test, his score would be:
1.5 Mile: 57.3 points
Push Ups: 6.0 points (only 4 from failing pushups!!!)
Curl Ups: 6.5 points (only 2 from failing curl ups!!!)
The cadet would have to have a waist no bigger than 39 inches, for 12.6 points
So that gets a brand new E3 at basic training, an 82.4 on the AFPT, with pretty marginal scores on 2 events (!)
I think that any Mitchell cadet that we hand to the USAF, and that they give E-3 to based on that award,
should *AT LEAST* be able to do this minimum... Seriously. At the very least.
And that airman would be testing twice a year and possibly enrolled in FIP...
^ Well then clearly it's, at the least, wholly appropriate, and one could argue somewhat lax.
Where I have seen some semi-legit issues is younger, fast-burner cadets, especially before they instituted the mandated
time between promotions, who were pushing at 15(ish) to try things more intended for 17-18 years olds, but those
are pretty rare these days.
I've found younger cadets to be MUCH more flexible than older cadets on sit and reach (i've had 13 year old female cadets who could reach all the way to the opposite side of the measurement box, literally off the scales!!!!!!)
I have also found younger cadets to be faster at the shuttle run.
They certainly have an advantage in some areas.
The last time I participated in the CPFT, I was 55, and could pass the Wright Brothers level for 17+. I was in the middle of the pack for the mile run, which was a little surprising. I thought more of the cadets would have passed me up.
That said, I think the current standards might be a little low. They haven't been re-normed in a long time, and current military induction standards (AF noted above) have changed over time. I think that is a good 50th %ile level.
It surprises me how many of our new cadets can't run a whole mile without walking. They catch on after a while and do better.
I always thought the PT standards were too tough. I was able to pass the PT tests prior to 2003, but the 03-present PT was next to impossible for me to pass. I spent close to a year as a C/SMSgt, and let my membership lapse because I couldn't pass PT.
Even today, I try to do the CPFT with the cadets, and I can't even get close to the Curry Achievement for a 12 year old. I do try to work out, but somehow I just have no ability to pass PT. I understand the plight of cadets who can't pass the CPFT, and that's why I feel it is much too tough.
Good thing I have no aspirations to join the military, I'd never make it through the physical training!
Well how many times a week did you train? When they added the sit up and sit and reach requirement, I had to do sit ups every other day for a year to be able to meet the 82 in two minute requirement for my Spaatz. It isn't supposed to be easy. I'm at the gym right now (literally sitting on the bench between sets) to try to get back in shape. I got old and fat. I'm working on the fat part. Can't do much about the age.
What is a PWIISXer?
:o
The standards are too high umm really? Lowering the standard is catering to folks who choose to not exercise and do something. Most of the time since I have been back I have ran with the cadets when they have done their mile and have done something with them when it came to the situps at least. I'm in my thirties and I was outrunning AD airmen who were 18+. Todays society has become one of coddling and catering.
I think everyone is focusing too much on the test and standards, and not enough on the rest of the physical fitness program (or complete formal lack thereof). It is by far the most formally neglected component of the five official cadet program elements and has the least materials, curriculum, guidance, and even the least SUI oversight. No wonder we don't do so well at it!
Part of PT in CAP isn't just administering the test and then admonishing those who do poorly to "do better." Well, we don't do that with leadership do we? "You screwed up. Do better next time!" Uhh, okay. But how?
It is true that PT in CAP is required by regulation to be more than just the CPFT, in every unit, without exception. But what does more mean? Does that mean once a month run the CPFT and on one other meeting, everyone plays soccer for 30 minutes?
I took that to mean physical fitness education & mentoring being important components of physical fitness in CAP.
1. Physical Fitness Education. How should cadets learn what they need to be doing to improve not just their CPFT score but their overall level of fitness and physical health? This should be an important part of our curriculum and unfortunately unless you have some "fitness literate" people in your unit, there's really not much provided by CAP to go off of. We used to supplement physical fitness education by having one cadet per month (on a rotating basis) present a topic related to fitness of their choosing (and the C/CC's concurrence) to the squadron after the CPFT. Extra-bonus since the cadet had to research & learn something new for themselves, everyone else learns one or two things from the presentation, and the presenting cadet worked on their public speaking skills all at the same time.
My question is: why don't we have better curriculum for teaching about fitness? We've updated our leadership books about 4 times in the past decade or so. But our physical fitness literature has remained at pretty much zero outside of some recommended stretches, warm-ups, and the CPFT guidelines. It's a huge hole missing in our cadet programs library, and that right there sets the clear tone from higher that physical fitness is not as important as the four other (supposedly equal) program components to CP.
2. Physical Fitness Mentoring/Feedback. How does a cadet know when his or her performance is good? What's good about? And where should they improve? And how should they improve? It's just accepted fact that we provide feedback to cadets on their leadership abilities and demonstrated traits (and even occasional formal feedback on other aspects, like speech and writing evaluation). If a unit didn't provide feedback and guidance to cadets to become better at their staff roles and leadership abilities, we'd probably consider that a horrible unit. So why don't we do the same with fitness? The CPFT is just a measuring tool. A measuring tool gives us data. What do we do with that data? We should periodically sit down with cadets (at minimum during their CAPF 50 reviews, but I'd say preferably more often) to look at their historical CPFT data. Not just their last score, but the trend of their last 6-12 months of scores. Are they getting better? Stagnating? Declining? Even if they're passing, but they've stagnated at their current performance, I'd say that cadet still needs encouragement to improve. And furthermore, we ought to be giving them some basic guidance on how to do that. It can be as simple as "Hey, you're not adding any additional pushups and you're just scraping by. By the time you get to Mitchell, if you don't add pushups you won't continue to pass. Try banging out three max sets of pushups once a day -- maybe when you wake up in the morning. And then we'll see how you do after a few months. Can you agree to that?"
Again, the lack of tools and guidance from higher and the hole in these types of evaluation tools in our cadet programs library speaks volumes as to the implied importance of this aspect of our program. We have CAPF 50, the table of expected leadership traits by phase, Cadet Super Chart, uniform inspection scorecards, and written and oral evaluation metrics. But not a single tool to give physical fitness feedback. I developed a basic physical fitness feedback form at my squadron when I was deputy commander for cadets to fill this gap, but it's only a start and a tool only works if you use it regularly and properly.
Quote from: Ron1319 on November 28, 2012, 10:19:37 AM
Well how many times a week did you train? When they added the sit up and sit and reach requirement, I had to do sit ups every other day for a year to be able to meet the 82 in two minute requirement for my Spaatz. It isn't supposed to be easy. I'm at the gym right now (literally sitting on the bench between sets) to try to get back in shape. I got old and fat. I'm working on the fat part. Can't do much about the age.
This is under the old program isn't it?
Now the max is 51 in a minute for 17+ Males.
Quote from: coudano on November 28, 2012, 05:07:01 AM
The CP pt standard *IS* the presidential fitness award.
phase 1 asks cadets to perform at the 25th percentile level at their age group.
spaatz asks cadets to perform at the 75th percentile level at their age group.
That's right, to get promoted to airman, you have to be only at or above the bottom 1/4th of American youth as measured by the presidential fitness standard.
Seriously... ANYBODY with a little motivation and practice, can do that.
No....that means that 25% of the american population CANNOT pass their curry with out a lot of help. CAP does not have the time to give them that help....so by default we are telling 25% of our target audiance "Don't bother to join".
Again as the cadet progresses in the program he may or may not get the PT bug and work VERY hard to improve and make it to Spaatz and 75th Percentile....but again we do not have the time to help these cadets to get to that level.....and there fore we are telling 75% of our target audiance....You will never make Spaatz....and we see this with our dismal promotion rates.
QuoteAlso I don't know how much validity this holds, but I think that the Mitchell requirement has historically been based on basic training accession standards... Let's see, we ask a 17+ year old male going for the mitchell to:
Sit and Reach: 34
Curl Ups: 44
Push Ups: 37
Shuttle Run: 9.4
Mile Run: 7:04
Supposing that the cadet kept up the 7:04 pace for an additional half mile, that'd be a 10:36 mile and a half.
SO if that cadet went and did the USAF PT test, his score would be:
1.5 Mile: 57.3 points
Push Ups: 6.0 points (only 4 from failing pushups!!!)
Curl Ups: 6.5 points (only 2 from failing curl ups!!!)
The cadet would have to have a waist no bigger than 39 inches, for 12.6 points
So that gets a brand new E3 at basic training, an 82.4 on the AFPT, with pretty marginal scores on 2 events (!)
I think that any Mitchell cadet that we hand to the USAF, and that they give E-3 to based on that award,
should *AT LEAST* be able to do this minimum... Seriously. At the very least.
And that airman would be testing twice a year and possibly enrolled in FIP...
They also give E-3 for signing up for six year, for doing JROTC for three years (which does not have a PT requirment), and for having college credits...again not PT requirments.
So...while I agree that we do need to have some sort of standard......I think the standards we do have are not very inclusive.
I would suggest that we keep Mitchell standards where they are....so we don't throw a wrench in the works with the USAF and the E-3 thing. But between Curry and Mitchell we work on a "base line-show improvement" in stead of a having set standards....we gate keep at Mitchell not at Curry.
Quote from: lordmonar on November 28, 2012, 04:33:18 PM
No....that means that 25% of the american population CANNOT pass their curry with out a lot of help. CAP does not have the time to give them that help....so by default we are telling 25% of our target audience "Don't bother to join".
No, we're saying "be more", and dispelling the "everyone gets a trophy" culture.
Quote from: lordmonar on November 28, 2012, 04:33:18 PMI would suggest that we keep Mitchell standards where they are....so we don't throw a wrench in the works with the USAF and the E-3 thing. But between Curry and Mitchell we work on a "base line-show improvement" in stead of a having set standards....we gate keep at Mitchell not at Curry.
This just doesn't work in practice. Objective standards are a hallmark of CAP, and in this case they are more then reasonable. Barring a legit medical waiver, the inability to be able to pass Phase 1 PT is a choice of personal focus. We don't need to water the program down with another place that
well-intentioned, but misguided CC's can "do what's
better for the cadet".
Just as with the PPFA, not everyone makes it, and that's the point.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 28, 2012, 04:42:06 PM
No, we're saying "be more", and dispelling the "everyone gets a trophy" culture.
True,
But it is probably NOT the best place to roadblock the cadets.
I would be all up for making Curry with a L2L/AE/CD/Activities/Proper Uniform.
THEN, for Arnold we make the PT come in (like we have AE currently).
That way at least the cadet FEELS like a cadet with a stripe as opposed to a C/AB who may take a long time to get to the standard.
That's reasonable, at least they are more invested in the idea at that point.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 28, 2012, 04:59:36 PM
Tat's reasonable, at least they are more invested in the idea at that point.
Exactly. If ever a change was made, this would probably be acceptable to both sides. Besides cheating, it's hard to keep a physically challenged cadet from quitting early on because they aren't motivated enough. It doesn't just affect their promotions, it affects all of their interest in CAP as a whole.
In my 20 years in CAP, I have rarely ever seen a cadet who actually works out, fail PT. The vast majority of cadets who have issues (aside from medical issues) dont work out, if they do work out, it IS NOT really working out. Doing 10 push ups and running a couple times around the track a week before your PT test isnt working out. Cadets dont go home and actually get into a work out routine. Then they show up to PT night and wonder why they fail or dont do well. All through out the month they continue to eat garbage and drink garbage and are not on any real workout or fitness routine. The standards start off pretty weak, and progress as you progress. Maybe a cadet might stay at a rank for a several months working towards their fitness. So be it. Probably one of my biggest observations at a CAWG cadet activity was the disturbing number of over weight squishy cadets with guts I saw walking around who were senior NCOs and Officers.
I say let the cream rise to the top. Life is full of hard lessons that usually start the day after you graduate high school. Let them learn some of those lessons in CAP while they can still learn to recover from them and change their life style habits. Hey you know what...... maybe not everyone gets to be a C/Capt or a C/Col. Thems' the breaks. But maybe Im just mean.
That's completely reasonable. The "problem" I've had is when you get a new fired up cadet, and you can't pin them with even ONE stripe because they aren't in shape/are overweight.
WIWAC/1st Sgt & CC I would typically run PT with a cadet like that, set the pace for them, and hopefully get them to pass that first PT. But a lot of the time it took us a couple of sessions to get there.
I hated nothing more than seeing someone sour on that initial excitement just because of PT. It wasn't that they want to be C/Officers, it's that they want that FIRST stripe.
Quote from: ProdigalJim on November 28, 2012, 01:48:19 PM
What is a PWIISXer?
:o
All game consoles rolled into one. PS, WII, X. Move S after the second I, run them together.
Quote from: RogueLeader on November 28, 2012, 05:41:23 PM
Quote from: ProdigalJim on November 28, 2012, 01:48:19 PM
What is a PWIISXer?
:o
All game consoles rolled into one. PS, WII, X. Move S after the second I, run them together.
I do believe now it has to be PWIISUXer, yes?
Yup. Just ask me. ;)
As far as standards are, I think that they are whats needed. I also happen to think that moving the 1st PT Test should be moved to the second achievement. For the typical Curry Cadet, they may have only had 1 to 2 months of learning how to train their bodies. Not very long. 3-4 months gives them more time to learn how to properly and safely do the events, as well as increase their endurance. They also have to have time to go from their baseline capabilities to where the standards are.
Even in Basic Training, you don't have to meet the Army Standard of 60 points to graduate. You only need 50 points in each event. To graduate AIT, you have to meet the 60 points to go to your regular unit. Ironically, my highest PT score was in AIT with a score of 244, out of 300. I usually score mid 230's after that.
I think that the real trend is that the CPFT has become more rigorous over the years.
IIRC, BITD, the CPFT consisted of only the mile run.
Then the Situps and V-Sit were added with the point system (which was arbitrarily obtained).
Now we have Run, Situps, Pushups, and V-Sit with an objective study backed scoring system.
So, over the course of the years, we've gone from one event to four. Seems more rigorous to me, not lowering.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on November 28, 2012, 07:28:39 PM
I think that the real trend is that the CPFT has become more rigorous over the years.
IIRC, BITD, the CPFT consisted of only the mile run.
Then the Situps and V-Sit were added with the point system (which was arbitrarily obtained).
Now we have Run, Situps, Pushups, and V-Sit with an objective study backed scoring system.
So, over the course of the years, we've gone from one event to four. Seems more rigorous to me, not lowering.
We HAVE lowered it. Used to be you needed Mile/Shuttle and Pushups, Situps, Sit and reach. Now it's Run + 2.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 28, 2012, 03:42:25 PM
Quote from: Ron1319 on November 28, 2012, 10:19:37 AM
Well how many times a week did you train? When they added the sit up and sit and reach requirement, I had to do sit ups every other day for a year to be able to meet the 82 in two minute requirement for my Spaatz. It isn't supposed to be easy. I'm at the gym right now (literally sitting on the bench between sets) to try to get back in shape. I got old and fat. I'm working on the fat part. Can't do much about the age.
This is under the old program isn't it?
Now the max is 51 in a minute for 17+ Males.
Yes. Like I said, I'm old. That doesn't change the point. For the record, me saying I'm old is a bit tongue in cheek as I'm about to turn 35.
Quote from: RogueLeader on November 28, 2012, 05:41:23 PM
Quote from: ProdigalJim on November 28, 2012, 01:48:19 PM
What is a PWIISXer?
:o
All game consoles rolled into one. PS, WII, X. Move S after the second I, run them together.
Wow. Thanks.
For the first time in my adult life, I now feel demographically irrelevant...
Quote from: ProdigalJim on November 28, 2012, 09:16:49 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on November 28, 2012, 05:41:23 PM
Quote from: ProdigalJim on November 28, 2012, 01:48:19 PM
What is a PWIISXer?
:o
All game consoles rolled into one. PS, WII, X. Move S after the second I, run them together.
Wow. Thanks.
For the first time in my adult life, I now feel demographically irrelevant...
Get with the times, old man!
:angel:
Quote from: lordmonar on November 28, 2012, 04:33:18 PM
No....that means that 25% of the american population CANNOT pass their curry with out a lot of help. CAP does not have the time to give them that help....so by default we are telling 25% of our target audiance "Don't bother to join".
Apart from the fact that most of the bottom 25% of American youth *could* perform better at PT if they so chose, and had a reason and motivation to do so...
QuoteAgain as the cadet progresses in the program he may or may not get the PT bug and work VERY hard to improve and make it to Spaatz and 75th Percentile....
They might not get the bug to cut their hair and shine their shoes either, but we require that too... (?)
Or to pass their tests. 25% of American youth don't have the academics prowess to score well enough to pass our tests either, how dare we require 80% to pass, we're telling all those stupid kids not to even join. Come on, man.
Quotewe gate keep at Mitchell not at Curry.
Yah, I try to gate keep at every single achievement, but especially at the phase breaks.
Not just on PT, but on every category of cadet membership.
Why would we not have time to help a cadet? I've been working with one cadet regularly, checking in with them on their progress, and encouraging them. They've lost a lot of weight, are getting faster every month, and are continuing to make great progress. It's a small amount of time in exchange for the benefit to the cadet's life. Isn't that why we do this?
Quote from: Ron1319 on November 28, 2012, 10:31:59 PM
Why would we not have time to help a cadet? I've been working with one cadet regularly, checking in with them on their progress, and encouraging them. They've lost a lot of weight, are getting faster every month, and are continuing to make great progress. It's a small amount of time in exchange for the benefit to the cadet's life. Isn't that why we do this?
Even better, we can encourage our cadet NCO's and Officers, to not only set example but aslo check on their fellow junior cadets in this way, we are double and triple winning (!) Those senior cadets probably see the junior cadets more often than we do anyway, like, every day at school.
Quote from: coudano on November 28, 2012, 10:26:43 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on November 28, 2012, 04:33:18 PM
No....that means that 25% of the american population CANNOT pass their curry with out a lot of help. CAP does not have the time to give them that help....so by default we are telling 25% of our target audiance "Don't bother to join".
Apart from the fact that most of the bottom 25% of American youth *could* perform better at PT if they so chose, and had a reason and motivation to do so...
QuoteAgain as the cadet progresses in the program he may or may not get the PT bug and work VERY hard to improve and make it to Spaatz and 75th Percentile....
They might not get the bug to cut their hair and shine their shoes either, but we require that too... (?)
Or to pass their tests. 25% of American youth don't have the academics prowess to score well enough to pass our tests either, how dare we require 80% to pass, we're telling all those stupid kids not to even join. Come on, man.
Quotewe gate keep at Mitchell not at Curry.
Yah, I try to gate keep at every single achievement, but especially at the phase breaks.
Not just on PT, but on every category of cadet membership.
Yep and that is my point......Joining CAP and then getting motivated to do something to get fit....but you can't do anything "fun" in CAP until you get your Curry....so some 12 year old over weight, under exercise cadet is going to be motivated in what way? Let's say it take him six months to get from can't do a single push up to passing his 25th percentile.
My point is as a CP guy....my ideal world would be that we are an organisation that takes just about everyone and MAKE THEM into what we want them to be. IMHO the PT program is a major road block to getting the cadet hooked, keeping him engaged and moving him forward.
I am not saying we need to change our "end state" standards (at least for Mitchell)....only how we gate keep up to that point.
So....in my world...Cadet Newguy would have to do the PT test to get Curry....those results would establish his base line. For each promotion beyond that he would have to show IMPROVEMENT upto the Mitchell requirements.
So he does only 1 push up for his curry....he must do alteast 2 to get his Arnold. This would continue until he goes for his Mitchell where he would have to do 18-37 base on his age.
So we don't gate keep at Curry or any acheivement through 6 and we do hold him to a standard at Mitchell.
That would give us 18 months to work with the cadet before he hits a road block due to PT.
As for the requirements beyond Mitchell.....again I would simply keep the 50th percentile as the standard and look for other ways to encourage our cadets to move up into the higher percentages.....I have seen too many cadets drop out after they make Mitchell because they get road blocked due to PT....and how many people have we heard about who missed getting Spaatz because of PT? When the standard is HIGHER then the USAF requires for its own PJs?
As for comparing the PT bug with hair cutting and shoe shining.....Yes we require that as well...but we don't change those standards as the move up. We say if it meets 39-1 standards you are done...we don't make them get a high and tight for Mitchel or require them to have super Honor guard shines for Eaker.
I guess it is that my focus is that CAP is a leadership/citezenship training program first and fore most. While being physically fit is important and should be part of our program....the STANDARDS that we have chosen (more or less arbitrarly) are a hinderance to getting the that mission done.
When 25% of the population can't meet our entry criteria and will have to stay in the entry mode until they do.....means that we will loose a major percentage of them because they don't get to do anything fun.
Remember that we as adults see thing differently than our cadets......if we want to stop the "give me" attitudes of our youth...then we have to hook them and keep them long enough for us to make those cognitive and emotional changes. And I think that our numbers bear me out when I say that I don't think we are doing that. When only 25% of those who join ever make it to Write Brothers....and only less the 1% ever complete the whole program......We need to look for any and all artificial road blocks were are putting into our program.
I don't know of anybody who missed their Spaatz because of the PT requirement.
CAPM 52-16, page 4: "CAP expects each cadet to exercise regularly and participate in the unit's physical fitness program."
CAPP 52-18 "Category II - Temporarily Restricted. A cadet in this category is determined by the squadron commander to
be temporarily restricted from parts or all of the CPFT due to a condition or injury of a temporary nature.
Temporary conditions include broken bones, post-operative recovery, obesity, and illness. Cadets normally
will not exceed six months in this category without reevaluation. Cadets temporarily restricted from a
portion of the CPFT are still required to complete and pass the events they are not restricted from. Cadets in
this category will not attempt the CPFT required for the Wright Brothers, Mitchell, Earhart, or Eaker Awards,
or be administered the Spaatz examination until they return to Category I or are determined by a physician
to meet the Category III or IV conditions listed below."
You can waive them up to the Wright Brothers achievement on a Category II for obesity and work with them however you'd like.
Quote from: Ron1319 on November 29, 2012, 01:30:12 AM
I don't know of anybody who missed their Spaatz because of the PT requirement.
CAPM 52-16, page 4: "CAP expects each cadet to exercise regularly and participate in the unit's physical fitness program."
CAPP 52-18 "Category II - Temporarily Restricted. A cadet in this category is determined by the squadron commander to
be temporarily restricted from parts or all of the CPFT due to a condition or injury of a temporary nature.
Temporary conditions include broken bones, post-operative recovery, obesity, and illness. Cadets normally
will not exceed six months in this category without reevaluation. Cadets temporarily restricted from a
portion of the CPFT are still required to complete and pass the events they are not restricted from. Cadets in
this category will not attempt the CPFT required for the Wright Brothers, Mitchell, Earhart, or Eaker Awards,
or be administered the Spaatz examination until they return to Category I or are determined by a physician
to meet the Category III or IV conditions listed below."
You can waive them up to the Wright Brothers achievement on a Category II for obesity and work with them however you'd like.
So the big fat cadet who has been on Cat II for six months gets his doctor to sign a paper to say "yes he's fat" and now he is CAT IV and NEVER HAS TO DO PT AGAIN! That is not a PT program.
If we do a base line and improvement system....we don't have to do any mental gymnastics and we have more time to work with the cadets before we have to re-evaluate or do some remedial training to get them past Mitchell..
Except for the cadet who does 1 pushup for the curry, and improves 1 per achievement up to the armstrong
and then goes and gets the cat 4 waiver because he can't get from 8 to 18 in 1 achievement and NOW never does PT again.
I can't name one cadet who has quit my unit because they couldn't PT.
I can name at least a half dozen (lately) who came in and failed their first try, and came back the next month and passed.
I can name cadets who never got out and exercised at home until they joined CAP, and then once they got in, they started (to the shock and awe of their parents)
I have never known a cadet who quit after the mitchell because of PT.
Not one.
Because of the SDA? And the lack of direction? And life distractions? Sure. But not PT...
Actually *my* Mitchell cadets were just Chiefs a minute ago, and not only were they rocking their own personal PT tests (at the same standards required for achievements 7, 8, and the Mitchell), they were LEADING the squadron in PT, as the first sergeant.
Quote from: lordmonar on November 29, 2012, 01:34:24 AM
So the big fat cadet who has been on Cat II for six months gets his doctor to sign a paper to say "yes he's fat" and now he is CAT IV and NEVER HAS TO DO PT AGAIN! That is not a PT program.
If we do a base line and improvement system....we don't have to do any mental gymnastics and we have more time to work with the cadets before we have to re-evaluate or do some remedial training to get them past Mitchell..
No, obesity is listed as a temporary condition, not a Cat III or Cat IV option.
Quote from: coudano on November 29, 2012, 01:44:17 AMI have never known a cadet who quit after the mitchell because of PT.
Not one.
Because of the SDA? And the lack of direction? And life distractions? Sure. But not PT...
Actually *my* Mitchell cadets were just Chiefs a minute ago, and not only were they rocking their own personal PT tests (at the same standards required for achievements 7, 8, and the Mitchell), they were LEADING the squadron in PT, as the first sergeant.
I have to go with coudano on this. Yes, far too many cadets blow Spaatz because of PT, but not because the standard is too high, but
because the failed to take it seriously and prepare. I've seen or been privy to, far too many who show up and it becomes obvious
they haven't done any preparation of practice. Everyone has a watch, why would you waste the SD's time (or whomever its going to be
now) when you're hitting the mile at twice the time? It's one thing to be sick or have a bad day and miss is by a slim margin, but
what ere they expecting? Michael Landon to swoop in at the last minute and carry them across?
The one component a cadet would never blow is PT, since that's the one piece where they can literally practice the test.
As to reducing or removing the early requirements, some of that comes down to whether we are to be a rec center or a paramilitary
cadet program. Our job is not to "fix" kids, our job is to offer opportunity to those kids who show the initiative to take the mantle and
grow what they are already doing as a matter of course.
Quote from: coudano on November 29, 2012, 01:44:17 AM
Except for the cadet who does 1 pushup for the curry, and improves 1 per achievement up to the armstrong
and then goes and gets the cat 4 waiver because he can't get from 8 to 18 in 1 achievement and NOW never does PT again.
I can't name one cadet who has quit my unit because they couldn't PT.
I can name at least a half dozen (lately) who came in and failed their first try, and came back the next month and passed.
I can name cadets who never got out and exercised at home until they joined CAP, and then once they got in, they started (to the shock and awe of their parents)
I have never known a cadet who quit after the mitchell because of PT.
Not one.
Because of the SDA? And the lack of direction? And life distractions? Sure. But not PT...
Actually *my* Mitchell cadets were just Chiefs a minute ago, and not only were they rocking their own personal PT tests (at the same standards required for achievements 7, 8, and the Mitchell), they were LEADING the squadron in PT, as the first sergeant.
I can name 15 who have left my squadron in the last year....partly due to stagnation due to PT failures.
I know seveal people who failed to get Spaatz due to PT.
I know one cadet who is right now only one sit up away from Spaatz.
I know seveal cadets who have stalled in the officer ranks due to PT.
Quote from: Ron1319 on November 29, 2012, 01:47:38 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on November 29, 2012, 01:34:24 AM
So the big fat cadet who has been on Cat II for six months gets his doctor to sign a paper to say "yes he's fat" and now he is CAT IV and NEVER HAS TO DO PT AGAIN! That is not a PT program.
If we do a base line and improvement system....we don't have to do any mental gymnastics and we have more time to work with the cadets before we have to re-evaluate or do some remedial training to get them past Mitchell..
No, obesity is listed as a temporary condition, not a Cat III or Cat IV option.
Look at the 52-16 again.....you get a doctor to sign off as a "indefinitely or permanently restricted from a portion of the cadet physical fitness program due to a medical condition or injury that is chronic or permanent in nature, as certified by a physician."
Obesity is a "condition" and the doctor can say it is chronic. Again.......this is barracks lawerying on how to get your cadets to beat the intent of the system.
I have 75 cadets under my command. 56 have passing PFT scores recorded. Only 1 has completed all of the requirements for promotion except for the PFT.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 29, 2012, 01:51:05 AM
Quote from: coudano on November 29, 2012, 01:44:17 AMI have never known a cadet who quit after the mitchell because of PT.
Not one.
Because of the SDA? And the lack of direction? And life distractions? Sure. But not PT...
Actually *my* Mitchell cadets were just Chiefs a minute ago, and not only were they rocking their own personal PT tests (at the same standards required for achievements 7, 8, and the Mitchell), they were LEADING the squadron in PT, as the first sergeant.
I have to go with coudano on this. Yes, far too many cadets blow Spaatz because of PT, but not because the standard is too high, but
because the failed to take it seriously and prepare. I've seen or been privy to, far too many who show up and it becomes obvious
they haven't done any preparation of practice. Everyone has a watch, why would you waste the SD's time (or whomever its going to be
now) when you're hitting the mile at twice the time? It's one thing to be sick or have a bad day and miss is by a slim margin, but
what ere they expecting? Michael Landon to swoop in at the last minute and carry them across?
The one component a cadet would never blow is PT, since that's the one piece where they can literally practice the test.
As to reducing or removing the early requirements, some of that comes down to whether we are to be a rec center or a paramilitary
cadet program. Our job is not to "fix" kids, our job is to offer opportunity to those kids who show the initiative to take the mantle and
grow what they are already doing as a matter of course.
You can't offere opportunities to kids who are not there. And if you think we should only offer opportunties to kids who, at the age of 12, show initiative to take on the mantle and grow......No wonder the BSA beats our butts with numbers, alumi, and funding.
I guess YMMV.
Quote from: lordmonar on November 29, 2012, 02:39:05 AM
Look at the 52-16 again.....you get a doctor to sign off as a "indefinitely or permanently restricted from a portion of the cadet physical fitness program due to a medical condition or injury that is chronic or permanent in nature, as certified by a physician."
Obesity is a "condition" and the doctor can say it is chronic. Again.......this is barracks lawerying on how to get your cadets to beat the intent of the system.
It clearly says, "A cadet in this category is determined by the squadron commander to be temporarily restricted from parts or all of the CPFT due to a condition or injury of a temporary nature. Temporary conditions include broken bones, post-operative recovery, obesity, and illness."
Which puts obesity into a temporary category. It could be read either way, but I don't think they have a solid case for Cat III or Cat IV for obesity.
Quote from: Ron1319 on November 29, 2012, 02:41:44 AM
I have 75 cadets under my command. 56 have passing PFT scores recorded. Only 1 has completed all of the requirements for promotion except for the PFT.
Cool.....very good. Now you got any who have not promoted for six months because of PT and then drops out? How much time do you have to spend on PT? How many potential cadets took one look at your PT program and said....nope not for me....I'll go join the boy scouts?
If you are making it work.....good for you.....let's get your program published on line so I can do it too.
Quote from: Ron1319 on November 29, 2012, 02:43:51 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on November 29, 2012, 02:39:05 AM
Look at the 52-16 again.....you get a doctor to sign off as a "indefinitely or permanently restricted from a portion of the cadet physical fitness program due to a medical condition or injury that is chronic or permanent in nature, as certified by a physician."
Obesity is a "condition" and the doctor can say it is chronic. Again.......this is barracks lawerying on how to get your cadets to beat the intent of the system.
It clearly says, "A cadet in this category is determined by the squadron commander to be temporarily restricted from parts or all of the CPFT due to a condition or injury of a temporary nature. Temporary conditions include broken bones, post-operative recovery, obesity, and illness."
Which puts obesity into a temporary category. It could be read either way, but I don't think they have a solid case for Cat III or Cat IV for obesity.
Ah....but here is the rub.......the SQUADRON COMMANDER cannot counter a CAT III or CAT IV letter from a Doctor!
Quoteb. Category I – Unrestricted. Cadets assigned to Category I are in good health and may participate in the physical fitness program without restriction.
c. Category II – Temporarily Restricted. Cadets assigned to Category II are temporarily restricted from all or part of the Cadet Physical Fitness Training (CPFT) due to a temporary condition or injury. Temporary conditions include broken bones, post-operative recovery, obesity, and illness. Normally, cadets will not exceed 6 months in this category without their condition being re-evaluated. To qualify for promotions while assigned to Category II, cadets must pass the CPFT events from which they are not restricted, with waived events being scored as a "pass" (see paragraph 5-8). However, cadets may not earn milestone awards while assigned to this category; they must wait until they return to Category I, or meet the Category III or IV criteria described below.
d. Category III – Partially Restricted. Cadets assigned to Category III are indefinitely or permanently restricted from a portion of the cadet physical fitness program due to a medical condition or injury that is chronic or permanent in nature, as certified by a physician. Cadets are still required to complete and pass the CPFT events from which they are not restricted.
e. Category IV – Indefinitely Restricted. Cadets assigned to Category IV are indefinitely or permanently restricted from participation in the entire physical fitness program due to a medical condition or injury, as certified by a physician. Cadets in this category are exempt from all CPFT requirements indefinitely.
If obesity is/can be a temporary condition.....for CAT II it can be chronic or permanent.....ergo.....you can get put into CAT III or IV and that's that.
Which is completely against the sprit of the regulation and the aims of the program but we are stuck with it.
My sister who is a doctor and our medical officer can counter a letter from another doctor. Still, a doctor doesn't have authority to put a cadet into category III or category IV. They can say what the problem is and we can determine if it meets the requirements. I read that obesity is temporary and Cat III and IV are not.
I don't know of any who have dropped out because of PT. We get most of the ones who show up to join. We have a lot of them, we don't need every one. We have a Flight Training Officer (senior) assigned to each flight, an extensive Great Start program, and we now have two C/LtC's taking their Spaatz exams this weekend, so we have some Phase IV leadership.
I say recruit. Do good great start. Let peer pressure motivate them.
Quote from: coudano on November 29, 2012, 01:44:17 AM
Except for the cadet who does 1 pushup for the curry, and improves 1 per achievement up to the armstrong
and then goes and gets the cat 4 waiver because he can't get from 8 to 18 in 1 achievement and NOW never does PT again.
I can't name one cadet who has quit my unit because they couldn't PT.
I can name at least a half dozen (lately) who came in and failed their first try, and came back the next month and passed.
I can name cadets who never got out and exercised at home until they joined CAP, and then once they got in, they started (to the shock and awe of their parents)
I have never known a cadet who quit after the mitchell because of PT.
Not one.
Because of the SDA? And the lack of direction? And life distractions? Sure. But not PT...
Actually *my* Mitchell cadets were just Chiefs a minute ago, and not only were they rocking their own personal PT tests (at the same standards required for achievements 7, 8, and the Mitchell), they were LEADING the squadron in PT, as the first sergeant.
I am a former cadet who quit because of PT stagnation.
I have plenty of cadets who have problems with PT at my unit. I even have cadet officers who spent several months waiting on a promotion because of PT.
I love the idea of making the Mitchell the make-or-break for PT. CAP is a wonderful activity for young people, and this idea that just because someone can't do PT they are excluded is elitist and shocking! The Cadet Program I know tries to help those who need it the most! If I had a cadet helping me with PT, maybe I'd have gotten my Mitchell. But I was really just left to my own devices, and so without any prior PT experience (I don't play sports) I had no idea where to begin. I have cadets inmy unit who go running together after school to help improve their scores. But sadly too many cadets don't pass PT each month, and it kills their interest in the program.
To me, while we strive to make every cadet into a Spaatzen and be an illustrious leader, some cadets just don't want that. Maybe they like the ES program. While we should be motivating cadets to promote and have healthy lifestyles, it shouldn't be the be-all-end-all. That cadet we 2B'd for lack of progression may have been an awesome Ground Team Member or a Mission Radio Operator. But we seem to forget the other aspects of our own program and focus solely on only certain things - things that make or break that cadet's experience in CAP and shape their opinion for life.
Quote from: kd8gua on November 29, 2012, 10:02:17 AM
To me, while we strive to make every cadet into a Spaatzen and be an illustrious leader, some cadets just don't want that. Maybe they like the ES program. While we should be motivating cadets to promote and have healthy lifestyles, it shouldn't be the be-all-end-all. That cadet we 2B'd for lack of progression may have been an awesome Ground Team Member or a Mission Radio Operator. But we seem to forget the other aspects of our own program and focus solely on only certain things - things that make or break that cadet's experience in CAP and shape their opinion for life.
This attitude shows a disdain for the cadet program. Cadets by definition are in the cadet program first. Everything else - ES, Drill Team, Honor Guard, etc - is extra-curricular. Compare it to school. A student needs to meet the academic requirements before they can be on the football team or baseball team or chess team. If they are held back, they don't make the teams. (As a rule.) In CAP, if a cadet does not progress in the cadet program, they can't do ES, etc.
Yes, I have told cadets this. Yes, I have told cadet staff they set the example and need to promote regularly or they will be former staff. I also tell seniors they need to promote regularly to set an example for the cadets.
You can say the standards are "low" or "high" -- it's relative. Back in the day, cadets were required simply to amass X points by participating in aerobic / fitness activities of their choosing. If you were out there working hard, doing some form of PT, that's what CAP wanted to see and so CAP gave you credit for that effort. A high level of fitness would follow from your good PT habits.
Then along comes the 1-mile run standard. Maybe a 1.5-mile run standard in there too, my memory is fuzzy; suffice to say the standard was limited to a run.
Where we are now, in 2012, is much, much, much more demanding of cadets in regards to fitness. What do they do now? Push ups, sit ups, some kind of stretching thing, and a run. Yeah, they can bomb one of the events, but still the bar is a lot higher today than it was in the 70s, 80s, or early 90s. It's also higher academically, but that's another story.
So reverting to a more attainable standard, as Patrick Harris suggests, makes a lot of sense to me, and I'm not worried that he would be (gasp!) "lowering" the standard because we've raised it so much already. We ought to want the right standards for cadets today.
I have YET to see or hear of a cadet being 2Bd for lack of "2 Achievements per year". Sure it gets mentioned to motivate them to get into gear, but I've seen plenty of cadets who would sit at a grade for 1+ years without ANY progress.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 29, 2012, 04:02:54 PM
I have YET to see or hear of a cadet being 2Bd for lack of "2 Achievements per year". Sure it gets mentioned to motivate them to get into gear, but I've seen plenty of cadets who would sit at a grade for 1+ years without ANY progress.
And we view this as a good thing? Not that 2bing them is a good thing either.....but rank stagnation is and indicator that something is wrong.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 29, 2012, 04:02:54 PM
I have YET to see or hear of a cadet being 2Bd for lack of "2 Achievements per year". Sure it gets mentioned to motivate them to get into gear, but I've seen plenty of cadets who would sit at a grade for 1+ years without ANY progress.
I actually enforce this rule, and I haven't had to do it yet.
I've written cadets up for it, and gone so far as a demotion over it.
But I haven't terminated anyone for it yet.
The only cadets i've lost who haven't promoted at an acceptable rate, have also quit the program (or turned senior member). None of those people, by the way, were failing to promote because of PT.
Look, I have to pass a PT test periodically.
I would like to get 100 or very very close to it.
I don't.
I just pass.
And when I look at the score that I just got, I think back to all of those times that I should have and could have worked out, and didn't. And that's reality.
If I had put in the time and effort, i'd have that 100. Its really not THAT hard to do... I know a lot of people who do it, and they are not olympic athletes. They simply put in the work up front.
We aren't asking our cadets to max out every category.
We are asking them to make minimums.
Minimums, for crying out loud.
We are trying to teach life long habits of fitness (yes, go running as a group after school)
But there is a second life lesson embedded here... If you don't put in the work up front, then you don't get the reward.
It is not too much to ask, in a military style program.
Two months ago when we did our squadron PT testing, out of around 20+ cadets, I was the ONLY one that passed. We made some changes to motivate cadets to exercise more that should help raise our scores.
Quote from: ZombieButter on November 29, 2012, 08:17:35 PM
Two months ago when we did our squadron PT testing, out of around 20+ cadets, I was the ONLY one that passed. We made some changes to motivate cadets to exercise more that should help raise our scores.
How frequently do you do PT testing? Training? It sounds to me like you need to switch to PT every meeting or every other meeting in a fun, motivated, productive way.
Quote from: Ron1319 on November 29, 2012, 11:27:20 PM
Quote from: ZombieButter on November 29, 2012, 08:17:35 PM
Two months ago when we did our squadron PT testing, out of around 20+ cadets, I was the ONLY one that passed. We made some changes to motivate cadets to exercise more that should help raise our scores.
How frequently do you do PT testing? Training? It sounds to me like you need to switch to PT every meeting or every other meeting in a fun, motivated, productive way.
If you do that...where do you have time for AE, ES, CD, and leadership?
My point has been we just don't have enough contact hours to get everthing done and still do a meaningful PT program.
In the other hour of the meeting not taken up by opening and closing stuff.
Quote from: Ron1319 on November 30, 2012, 12:16:36 AM
In the other hour of the meeting not taken up by opening and closing stuff.
That and a tight schedule where people are on time and move with a purpose. I've been to a lot of meetings where the first 30 minutes
is "wander in time", followed by 15-20 minutes where people are bumping into each other trying to get into formation, another 30 minutes
of a rambling safety briefing, and before you know it it's time for closing formation.
I also agree we have far too little contact time, and this, like ES or other things some people view as optional could / should be done on
an alternate night or the weekend.
Then disband the unit. Our cadets arrive 10-15 minutes early. Staff 1/2 hour early. Our formation starts exactly on time every week and we try to end on time. Sometimes if we have a lot of promotions we go over by 5 minutes but the parents are understanding about that. If they burn half the meeting, no wonder the cadets don't do well on PT. Nobody cares, apparently.
At our meeting we meet for 2:30 hours.
Week 1...we got formation, character development, leadership
Week 2...formation, safety, aerospace, testing.
Week 3....PT
Week 4....Formation, Leadership, ES, Promotions/Awards.
In the back ground we have the cadet staff planning the meetings, promotion boards, membership boards, uniform issue, admin paper work.
Also we have/are trying to get a stong senior porgram going with PD, ES and Specialty Track Development.
We simply can't do PT every week....or even twice a month.
We can't devote a lot of "other nights/days" to the optional items as we have a pretty strong program with lots of stuff going on.
Color Guard, ES, SAREX, PD courses, air show support, firearms training, AEX, model Rocketry, etc.
Like I said....I do beleive that PT and good physical fitness is important.....just not as important as all the other stuff we have and should be doing.
Everyone should be doing personal PT 3 times a week for 30-40 minutes at a time.....but let's be realistic.....we ask our cadets to do a lot of stuff for CAP.....get hair cuts, prep their uniforms, study and take their tests, do their SDA's, work out, prepare to teach their classes, keep good grades in school......and they often have lives outside of CAP and School that eats up their time as well...church, sports, music, et al......
I have been doing CP for near 10 years now....and the one thing I see holding back most cadets is PT. I am not saying we should throw it out the door....but just modify the standards and expectations.
Simple to make the time.
1) Do promotions and awards during closing at the end of each meeting.
2) Don't dedicate the entire week 3 meeting to PT. Our PFT takes about an hour for about 50 cadets in attendance. You should have another hour to move a block into that block.
3) Don't dedicate two blocks to "leadership"
Keeping everything in your schedule and assuming opening and closing each meeting at 15 minutes/each, and adding a few important things. Note I am suggesting that you offer testing twice a month concurrently with some focused leadership or aerospace class/tutoring or activity.
Week 1 - CD (45 min), flight time (30 min), PT (45 min)
Week 2 - safety (30 min), flight time (inspection/drill 30 min), break (5 min) aerospace/testing (55 min).
Week 3 - PT (1 hour), extra hour for activity or additional important thing.
Week 4 - Leadership/testing (55 min), break (5 min), ES (1 hr)
That could be shuffled to this:
Week 1 - CD (45 min), flight time (30 min), PT (45 min)
Week 2 - safety (30 min), flight time (inspection/drill 40 min), break (5 min), PT (45 min)
Week 3 - PT (1 hour), aerospace/testing (55 min).
Week 4 - Leadership/testing (55 min), break (5 min), ES (1 hr)
I hope you actually use this.
Well...that's the rub....CAP CP is a leadership program first and foremost.......so I have a problem with giving up LEADERSHIP time for PT.
Quote from: Ron1319 on November 30, 2012, 01:05:46 AM
Week 1 - CD (45 min), flight time (30 min), PT (45 min)
Week 2 - safety (30 min), flight time (inspection/drill 30 min), break (5 min) aerospace/testing (55 min).
Week 3 - PT (1 hour), extra hour for activity or additional important thing.
Week 4 - Leadership/testing (55 min), break (5 min), ES (1 hr)
That could be shuffled to this:
Week 1 - CD (45 min), flight time (30 min), PT (45 min)
Week 2 - safety (30 min), flight time (inspection/drill 40 min), break (5 min), PT (45 min)
Week 3 - PT (1 hour), aerospace/testing (55 min).
Week 4 - Leadership/testing (55 min), break (5 min), ES (1 hr)
FYI, neither of those schedules meets the minimum requirement for Aerospace (1.5) or Character (1) contact hours called for in CAPR 52-16.
We manage to have all of it and then some in the 2.5 hours a week we meet. With 118 on the roster, and about 90-100 present each night on average, between cadets and seniors. Then Color Guard, Cyber Patriot, ES, AE, and the others break out groups meet on alternate days/nights as well. There's PT, AE, Leadership, CD, and more. Like clockwork, every 4 weeks.
I find it sad that your personal bias against PT is causing the problems that you report in your unit. Obviously it could be done if you cared enough to do it, saw it as a priority, and had the leadership ability to implement a solution. It's no the program that should bend to your bias, it's you who should look deep inside yourself and find a solution. I'm not suggesting a schedule change be permanent, and the 52-16 is clear that you can make exceptions. With that I am bowing out of this conversation as it has become quite circular.
I feel that if you do not understand that all of CAP is a leadership experience for the cadets, that their fitness and ability to meet the PT requirements to complete the program is paramount. They could certainly learn more from accomplishing those goals than they could sitting in a leadership class or with flight commanders figuring out how to target flight time to their needs, then we really have nothing more to discuss.
Welll....like I said....I would rather spend more time doing leadership execises then just doing PT.....YMMV.
I disagree that PT is "paramount"......I think you need to look at 52-16 and see what is supposed to be paramount in the cadet program....and with that I am out...becuase I'm getting angry.
Quote from: lordmonar on November 30, 2012, 06:41:34 PM
Welll....like I said....I would rather spend more time doing leadership execises then just doing PT.....YMMV.
I disagree that PT is "paramount"......I think you need to look at 52-16 and see what is supposed to be paramount in the cadet program....and with that I am out...becuase I'm getting angry.
And just to continue the cirularity,
PT *IS* leadership exercise.
or you're doing it wrong.
I might have been known to avoid doing PT in my Army unit, But I always did PT with my cadets. To motivate them, and show that I never asked them to do something I wouldn't.
Quote from: coudano on November 30, 2012, 09:13:31 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on November 30, 2012, 06:41:34 PM
Welll....like I said....I would rather spend more time doing leadership execises then just doing PT.....YMMV.
I disagree that PT is "paramount"......I think you need to look at 52-16 and see what is supposed to be paramount in the cadet program....and with that I am out...becuase I'm getting angry.
And just to continue the cirularity,
PT *IS* leadership exercise.
or you're doing it wrong.
Not saying that it is not......and I am not advocating eliminating the PT requirment from the CP.........I am saying that in my experince we are loosing too many cadets becasue they will not/can not pass the bloody CPFT.
I am suggesting two changes....one is minor compared the end state....the other is a major change...but only affects around 5% of the cadets.
looking through this, i note two different sides: one, which wishes for lower standards, and the other, which is for current and increasing future standards. now, honestly, obesity is neither a motivation problem, not is it an unavoidable medical condition. i'm not saying people who do poorly on pt are unmotivated, but often, it may be that they do not know the capability of their body. does that make sense? ah, take, for example, wrestling. when you give all in a match, you are rewarded with the objective of wrestling: control. you can have control over your effort, no matter what. when you have room to improve, you have a goal to work towards: controlling your opponent more and more effectively.
you see, PT is NOT about separating the fit from the not, but rather about building self discipline, and aiming towards a higher goal, in addition to the betterment of the individual cadet.
additionally, PT is fun, and being a "fit" person is truly rewarding, you have more energy, you do better in school, you have more control over your effort and body, and, best of all, you get the [insert gender of your choice here]s (trust me, all have been expirienced by the author, who was rather sedentary before this fall)
that aside, i love PT and CPFT because it is fun; it was the highlight of my day at encampment, and wrestling practice is the great thing aboout going to school, and my advanced PE is just the bomb.
I'm noticing a trend here. We have a standard that we need to get people to meet, but the problem is that they usually don't. In this case, we have cadets who can't pass their CPFT. So what do we do? Either we change our methods, or we lower the standards. Unfortunately I have seen people advocate for the latter far too often. The standard isn't the problem, so instead of taking a step backwards, I think we should change how we coach cadets. I've seen a lot of cadets who struggle to pass their first PT test come back two months later and pass with flying colors. In almost all of these cases, it was because either another person, or the entire unit got behind them. Doing PT once a week won't get you in shape, but it can do wonders in teaching proper exercise habits and building esprit de corps.
Quote from: lordmonar on November 30, 2012, 03:31:56 PM
Well...that's the rub....CAP CP is a leadership program first and foremost.......so I have a problem with giving up LEADERSHIP time for PT.
I think you'll find they are equal components of the cadet program. Just because the Cadet Program has decided to rain resources down upon the aerospace education and leadership components and leave us with a dearth of any substantive or new content for the other three components doesn't mean they're
supposed to be lesser aspects.
The PT standards can get high if you hold a competitive physical game, make teams, and fun stuff like that. Right now I am working on making two offical teams not based on flight or staff, for PT fun.
My previous unit in UTWG had excellent PT scores across the board. PT was a part of every weekly meeting except Blues night. Cadets that struggled were worked with and coached well by senior cadets. It was a point of unit pride and cohesion to work together on being fit. In fact, we were well known in the wing for being in better shape overall than just about anyone. What made it happen was everyone consistently working together and cadet leaders doing an impressive job of mentoring and motivating.
I'll never forget one CPFT I was overseeing. We had this one uber-cadet that wanted to see what his absolute max on push-ups was. I was hesitant at first to let him keep going, but I gave in to the cadets who were cheering him on. He did over 200 push-ups in one sitting without stopping. That same year the RMR color guard team that went to NCC was made up of all my unit's cadets and our c/CC won the mile run by a pretty decent margin.
It was part of the squadron culture for the cadets. Another thing that made it work so well was there were no Gunny Hartmans. There was encouragement, but no one was smoked. That c/CC that won the mile at NCC would stay back and run with the slowest cadet encouraging them the whole way.
I hope they don't lower the CPFT standards. The reason I feel that way is that I find written/online tests easy and PT more difficult so it is my main challenge in CAP. I think if they lowered the standards then I would feel that there was less value to promotions and as a result I (and maybe others) may end up leaving the program.
You have effectively taken only 3 tests in CAP on Leadership. If you find it easy great! They get harder.
Quote from: TJT__98 on December 11, 2012, 06:02:48 PM
I hope they don't lower the CPFT standards. The reason I feel that way is that I find written/online tests easy and PT more difficult so it is my main challenge in CAP. I think if they lowered the standards then I would feel that there was less value to promotions and as a result I (and maybe others) may end up leaving the program.
This is another part of the equation. We want the cadet program to stretch people. It should be harder to be a cadet than just an average teen going to school. We want the cadets to set their sights high and then achieve tough goals. Lowering PT standards does neither.
Quote from: Walkman on December 11, 2012, 07:13:33 PM
Quote from: TJT__98 on December 11, 2012, 06:02:48 PM
I hope they don't lower the CPFT standards. The reason I feel that way is that I find written/online tests easy and PT more difficult so it is my main challenge in CAP. I think if they lowered the standards then I would feel that there was less value to promotions and as a result I (and maybe others) may end up leaving the program.
This is another part of the equation. We want the cadet program to stretch people. It should be harder to be a cadet than just an average teen going to school. We want the cadets to set their sights high and then achieve tough goals. Lowering PT standards does neither.
I would but that to a point....but how much higher the adverage?
Quote from: usafaux2004 on December 11, 2012, 06:27:44 PM
You have effectively taken only 4 tests in CAP on Leadership and six in aerospace. If you find it easy great! They get harder.
The bold is mine (I passed all phases of the model rocketry program). While the above is very true I am able to remember things I read very well, I read the book and I can pass the test. The only time this failed me was when I took my WB exam and accidentaly took the wrong test (after I passed (with the right books) we looked at the books I had studied in the first place and we couldn't find the correct answers to the questions I missed in them at all). I know they will get harder but until then that statement I made will remain true.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 11, 2012, 07:55:46 PM
Quote from: Walkman on December 11, 2012, 07:13:33 PM
Quote from: TJT__98 on December 11, 2012, 06:02:48 PM
I hope they don't lower the CPFT standards. The reason I feel that way is that I find written/online tests easy and PT more difficult so it is my main challenge in CAP. I think if they lowered the standards then I would feel that there was less value to promotions and as a result I (and maybe others) may end up leaving the program.
This is another part of the equation. We want the cadet program to stretch people. It should be harder to be a cadet than just an average teen going to school. We want the cadets to set their sights high and then achieve tough goals. Lowering PT standards does neither.
I would but that to a point....but how much higher the adverage?
I think they are fine as they are now, I guess I am weird like that, I don't even care wether or not we get ABUs ::)
They allow taking AE ahead?
WBA is a rehash of 1-3, so I don't count it as new material.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on December 12, 2012, 05:11:56 AM
They allow AE ahead?
No sir, they don't, I took the C/A1C, C/SrA and C/TSgt AE tests (one each) I am just waiting to be pinned for C/TSgt. And the model rocketry program has three phases with one written test for each phase.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on December 12, 2012, 05:11:56 AM
WBA is a rehash of 1-3, so I don't count it as new material.
Okay, good point.
Quote from: TJT__98 on December 12, 2012, 02:26:58 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on December 12, 2012, 05:11:56 AM
They allow AE ahead?
No sir, they don't, I took the C/A1C, C/SrA and C/TSgt AE tests (one each) I am just waiting to be pinned for C/TSgt. And the model rocketry program has three phases with one written test for each phase.Quote from: usafaux2004 on December 12, 2012, 05:11:56 AM
WBA is a rehash of 1-3, so I don't count it as new material.
Okay, good point.
You said SIX AE...
Quote from: usafaux2004 on December 12, 2012, 03:05:32 PM
Quote from: TJT__98 on December 12, 2012, 02:26:58 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on December 12, 2012, 05:11:56 AM
They allow AE ahead?
No sir, they don't, I took the C/A1C, C/SrA and C/TSgt AE tests (one each) I am just waiting to be pinned for C/TSgt. And the model rocketry program has three phases with one written test for each phase.Quote from: usafaux2004 on December 12, 2012, 05:11:56 AM
WBA is a rehash of 1-3, so I don't count it as new material.
Okay, good point.
You said SIX AE...
3 AE achievement tests + 3 AE model rocketry test = 6 AE tests
I got that. But those are Rocketry tests. Just as when I specified only 3 LEADERSHIP tests, I specifically excluded AE because the two are apples to oranges.
The point stands that even under the old L2K books, things got harder over time. The same is true for L2L, so saying that the baseline tests aimed at younger cadets are easy doesn't reflect on the tests that are coming up.
Pt standards are where they need to be. If a cadet is unable to pass the test they should work out and keep on trying. If they can't within a year, they should quite. CAP isn't for everybody just like go the Air Force isn't for everybody either.
Quote from: Cadetcookies on December 12, 2012, 09:06:31 PM
Pt standards are where they need to be. If a cadet is unable to pass the test they should work out and keep on trying. If they can't within a year, they should quite. CAP isn't for everybody just like go the Air Force isn't for everybody either.
Quite what?
Unlike the Air Force, CAP is obligated to accept pretty much everyone.
Not to mention the AIMS of the CAP CP is to help everyone become better citizens not just the ones who meet some arbirary idea of "good enough". That has always been my argument about lowering the CPFP standards in the first place....we can't dedicate enough time to really help them improve.....and we loose them becuase they hit a wall and then just quit.
We loose...because we loose our chance to mold cadets and the cadets loose.
I am a 29 year old male, former C/LTC rejoining CAP after a few years away. I have always been a bigger guy and took a lot of heat for it growing up (especially as an Army brat). I joined CAP in 1996 when I was 12 and stayed in until 20 when I just could not keep up with it anymore. I never took my Spaatz due to the PT standards. I knew I could pass all of the tests EXCEPT the mile run. I was too embarrassed to try to get a medical release and did not want to be seen as weak. I also did not want to live with the knowledge that I only promoted due to the fact that I did so unfairly.
I always felt ashamed that I could not do PT to the degree of many of my cadets. A lot of that was my personal fault and I take responsibility for that. I did NOT give up though. Even if I could not do it as well as my cadets I was there with them. They watched me exert myself running to the point of vomiting after most runs (in the lovely climate of Fairbanks, Alaska) or having to take a few more minutes to recover. If we were doing pt as motivation or corrective action, I did it with them.
As a cadet I knew the standards and worked towards them. The standards were a benchmark for me to work towards. While I would love to have a Spaatz number on a certificate, I don't. I know that I could have killed myself doing it, but I ran out of time and that is okay too. I would rather my former cadets be able to remember the kind of officer I was all around than the fact that I wore three diamonds. Even though I did not meet that standard for Spaatz, I am proud of what I accomplished and what CAP allowed me to get out of it.
My time in CAP laid a foundation that led me to be an Emergency Trauma Tech @ 15, Volunteer FF @ 17, EMT-B @ 18, and into an emergency management course at Arkansas Tech. This led me through a varied career as a dispatcher/detention officer, volunteer firefighter, EMT, Paramedic, County EM director, and a disaster manager for 14 counties with the American Red Cross and books of certifications and certificates. That is what I got out of this program.
That is why I am coming back to CAP. I do not have a lot of time, but I am willing to give back because this program gave me so much. This program taught me so much more than the PT program and while it has its place, there is so much more for cadets to soak up in the few years they have. I think this is where the organization needs to be focusing.
Let's face it; most youth today lack a strong moral compass. This is where the character development can make a difference in someone's life. For students who are uninterested in school, the Aerospace Education and other portions of the cadet program can improve this. For cadets with no structure at home, this is a place where drill and ceremonies, uniforms, rank, grade, and organizational culture can provide belonging. The cadet program can be an introduction to vocations and passions for cadets. It can provide an opportunity that they may have never had (orientation flights, emergency services, disaster relief, etc.).
This is what CAP COULD/CAN be when its leadership understands the true impact they can have on lives.
We've actually been encouraging the use of he Presidential Fitness program and that is forming a competitive environment for us, .. kinda the opposite that I sorta expected.
Quote from: a2capt on December 17, 2012, 11:06:28 AM
We've actually been encouraging the use of he Presidential Fitness program and that is forming a competitive environment for us, .. kinda the opposite that I sorta expected.
YOU DID IT! 300,000TH POST!
Quote from: a2capt on December 17, 2012, 11:06:28 AM
We've actually been encouraging the use of he Presidential Fitness program and that is forming a competitive environment for us, .. kinda the opposite that I sorta expected.
Post 300k!!!