CAP Talk

I've noticed quite a few CAPTalkers who are now former CAP members.

Without needing to go into detail, I'm curious as to what ultimately led you to quit CAP.

Boredom.

If you go through the various membership threads on CAPTalk you'll find several answers why people have quit CAP. Several say because of the lack of direction of the organization. A few dedicated members have been terminated by the politics that exists in CAP.  One or two say they quit because of the confusing regulations. There doesn't seem to be a single reason for members dropping from CAP.
Even active members are disgruntled by problems that exist in the leadership and in-fighting that exists. But no matter the reason that causes an individual to drop out of the program, these former members are lost to CAP and in some cases causes a black eye for the program.

It was the actions of the misguided current National Commander who, for personal reasons beyond the scope of this post, punatively destroyed the CISM program that Lt Col Sherry Jones, many others, (and I) worked tirelessly to establish and develop.

The current National Commander unilaterally moved the program to a deliberate "purgatory" in Health Services in early 2008 which effectively destroyed the program.

I retired as a result after 23 years.

Once the current CAP/CC is replaced, I MIGHT consider returning ...

I just ran out of airspeed, altitude and ideas.. :)

if you are no longer a member, what leads you to continue to post in CAPTalk?

I moved from Arkansas to Florida for a summer to work at Busch Gardens and volunteer with various social programs. During that time my membership expired. When I came back home I started college and rushed a fraternity (Any Pikes here?)
and became involved in various other student organizations. I've just now had the time to renew my membership (As a senior member). I'm waiting for it to shift through CAPNHQ.

Hopefully in a week this topic will no longer be relevant to me as I'll be back in  ;D

Quote from: peter rabbit on March 18, 2011, 03:06:38 PM
if you are no longer a member, what leads you to continue to post in CAPTalk?

Even though someone like NIN is not a current member, he has years of experience and holds a wealth of knowledge. If he's willing to share that experience, I'm willing to listen.

Quote from: EMT-83 on March 18, 2011, 03:25:17 PM

Quote from: peter rabbit on March 18, 2011, 03:06:38 PM
if you are no longer a member, what leads you to continue to post in CAPTalk?

Even though someone like NIN is not a current member, he has years of experience and holds a wealth of knowledge. If he's willing to share that experience, I'm willing to listen.

I've gotten uniforms, stories, and good advice from NIN so far, and I'm new! Agreed in full, EMT.

Hey - I'm listening too. It sounds like several former members still have a piece of themselves invested in the organization. I'm hoping they'll find something that draws them back to "active duty". We need all of the good, quality, caring, participating members we can lasso, hoodwink, whatever.

Saw this today in News of the Force: may be a reason for some....

Report: Three Civil Air Patrol officers relieved for following a regulation
   
   [redacted full text for copyright compliance reasons --admin]

"It is refreshing to see someone in the CAP refuse to sink to the level of petty arguments," the source said.

Let me translate that....

Wheeew, Im glad this guy just went away instead of calling us on the fact that we dont want to enforce height and weight standards.....

I think its because their reasons for wanting to stay active in CAP have changed, but they still enjoy the conversation and discussions.  They arent members anymore, but are still interested in whats going on.  A lot of these former members have 20+ yrs in CAP.  Just like people who retire from the military are still interested in whats going on.  Heck, I only did 8 years in the military and I am still very much interested in what the military is up to.

Just furthers the idea that our regulations have no teeth, when we can't even enforce them without getting canned.

Of course like most things, I doubt that the article contains the whole story...

After 13 years of service in the Civil Air Patrol I find that I have integrated it into my lifestyle to a level that I have more than emotionally invested in it.  If I had to leave it, most likely due to those "life" issues related to finances or for a reason where I simply did not have time...I might move into PATRON STATUS, but remain keenly interested in the latest goings on in anticipation of the day when I could return to active status.

Quote from: LtDan123 on March 18, 2011, 05:27:01 PM
Saw this today in News of the Force: may be a reason for some....

Report: Three Civil Air Patrol officers relieved for following a regulation
   
   [redacted full text for copyright compliance reasons --admin]

I read the article.  I'm guessing there is a whole lot more to the story than what NOTF reports or knows.  It is long on opinion and short on facts.

Quote from: DBlair on March 18, 2011, 06:39:17 AM
I've noticed quite a few CAPTalkers who are now former CAP members.

Some may not have quit on their own ,they may have had their memberships terminated for cause.

Quote from: LtDan123 on March 18, 2011, 05:27:01 PM

   [redacted full text for copyright compliance reasons --admin]

I don't think NoTF would have the gall to try to enforce a copyright given that they violate copyrights about 15-25 times a day. 

My wing had some problem officers that caused me to leave. Now that I have moved to another state I might get back in.

Hmm..

I heard 'round the squadron that a few senior members are about to be "Bumped down to Patron Status". I guess they haven't been around.

Quote from: peter rabbit on March 18, 2011, 03:06:38 PM
if you are no longer a member, what leads you to continue to post in CAPTalk?

Something I regularly ask myself as well.  While their are many, like NIN, who basically completed the program and moved on to new / different challenges,
but are still involved in related or similar programs and have valid opinions to offer, there are far too many who view CT as just a place to
air or (more often) rehash the "injustices" imposed upon them WIWAC or WIWAS (injustices generally done by people no longer involved in any positions of authority, if even the program) as if they were remotely relevant today.

In my experience, the #1 reason members quit is incorrect expectations set from day one, which result in the member not understanding CAP at a fundamental level and fighting up stream their whole time.

As one example, a member is recruited at an airshow in front of three airplanes and a HMMV, and told they can "fly for free", only to find out later that
the unit doesn't have a plane assigned (or even an active flight program, the HMMV was on loan from a local dealer, and it takes 6-months to 1 year
of fairly active membership before a member can "fly for free cheap".

I am one of those who have recently left CAP.  I deliberately let my membership expire after 18 years.  I was not exactly idle during those years: MP, MS,Mission Check Pilot, Sq Commander, deputy commander two or three times, Cadet O Ride Pilot, ROTC O Ride Pilot, Mt Flying Instructor, CD pilot, FRO, Mission Manager for CD operations, Wing Deputy Director of CD Ops, Director of CD Ops, to name a few.

I quit in disgust with CAWG leadership(?) and a general lack of leadership in most of what I saw in CAWG.  My only experience was in CAWG: I never served in any other Wing.

I won't go into details, because I don't want to drag the dirty linen out into the open.  I have PM'd some of those on CT with whom I have established a better than casual relationship.  I have expressed my feelings to a select group in CAWG.  If anyone wants more details, I will consider how well I know you and respond via PM

As most of you know, I served over 30 years in the military(active and reserve) and I regularly had problems with the way that semi-military things are done in CAP by what I consider to be rank amateurs.

I am one of those who have recently left CAP.  I deliberately let my membership expire after 18 years.  I was not exactly idle during those years: MP, MS,Mission Check Pilot, Sq Commander, deputy commander two or three times, Cadet O Ride Pilot, ROTC O Ride Pilot, Mt Flying Instructor, CD pilot, FRO, Mission Manager for CD operations, Wing Deputy Director of CD Ops, Director of CD Ops, to name a few.

You forgot all around swell guy with some cool war stories ;D

Thanks, Rob.

Thomas K. McKee has an interesting and on point article at Volunteer Power. CAPTALK has essentially rehashed his 7 reasons why volunteer quit. He contends that volunteer managers need to operate like Human Resource managers. McKee's confession on why he quit volunteering is almost a template for reasons people leave CAP.

His article is a good piece that will serve well as a basis for a conference seminar or professional development class or at the very least a waypoint for emerging leaders to reference.  http://www.volunteerpower.com/articles/WhyPeopleQuit.asp

On a personal note, I think the reason some leave CAP is because appointed leaders do not know how to lead and those leaders are befuddled by functional conflict and react to it as if it was dysfunctional conflict. Said reaction is typically asymmetrical in relation to the perceived infraction. Instead of seeking common ground or at least understanding, the so called leader passively threatens the follower until the situation has to be handled by a higher echelon. The follower leaves by one way or another and the leaders cheer that they have won because they chased away a human resource. Then those same leaders are the ones that complain that retention is a problem. I believe it is a telling sign of the organization's health when new members know the form number to terminate membership before they know what a CAPF 120 is!

Those people who need to know why I quit were made aware of my reasons in an email I sent out.  It is for the reasons I explained in that email that I felt forced to leave an organization that I have supported with my time, talents, and treasure since 1963.  It is for those reasons that I will never return.

And, Bob, even though I did not copy you directly on the email, I am absolutely sure that you are well aware of my action and the reasons behind that action.

I will not put this information out on "Front Street," but you are welcome to PM me if you have any questions.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2011, 08:29:17 PM

Quote from: peter rabbit on March 18, 2011, 03:06:38 PM
if you are no longer a member, what leads you to continue to post in CAPTalk?

In my experience, the #1 reason members quit is incorrect expectations set from day one, which result in the member not understanding CAP at a fundamental level and fighting up stream their whole time.

So could you define a bit more about that "fundamental level of misunderstanding about CAP" which causes most of the memberships to leave ???
RM

Quote from: Robert Hartigan on March 19, 2011, 12:56:15 PM
Thomas K. McKee has an interesting and on point article at Volunteer Power. CAPTALK has essentially rehashed his 7 reasons why volunteer quit. He contends that volunteer managers need to operate like Human Resource managers. McKee's confession on why he quit volunteering is almost a template for reasons people leave CAP.

His article is a good piece that will serve well as a basis for a conference seminar or professional development class or at the very least a waypoint for emerging leaders to reference.  http://www.volunteerpower.com/articles/WhyPeopleQuit.asp

On a personal note, I think the reason some leave CAP is because appointed leaders do not know how to lead and those leaders are befuddled by functional conflict and react to it as if it was dysfunctional conflict. Said reaction is typically asymmetrical in relation to the perceived infraction. Instead of seeking common ground or at least understanding, the so called leader passively threatens the follower until the situation has to be handled by a higher echelon. The follower leaves by one way or another and the leaders cheer that they have won because they chased away a human resource. Then those same leaders are the ones that complain that retention is a problem. I believe it is a telling sign of the organization's health when new members know the form number to terminate membership before they know what a CAPF 120 is!

Very good reference above, perhaps the BOG, and the rest of the leadership should take a good look at this and perhaps get some training from that consultant.

What I see is in some case the organization tries to run like it is military when in fact it's a bunch of civilians that may have their own agenda, and may not be willing to compromise at any level.  We may also over sell ourselves especially on all this buzz word "homeland security & defense" type activities.  Within each wing there's really only a small percentage involved in these type of activities.   When you add all the administrative mumbo jumbo and the overall punitive activities (e.g. driving a CAP and having an accident) when compared to other volunteer organizations there's a marked difference.

Also because we basically get just about all of our funding from the USAF military, we end up playing their games (because of our contractual requirements) and employing their rhetoric/philosophy which may not be suited for civilians who volunteer their time, effort, and money with no real compensation, little recognition, and more than average individual risk (much of which could be improved via the organization e.g. buy insurance for vehicles & aircraft).
RM
   

Quote from: Robert Hartigan on March 19, 2011, 12:56:15 PM
On a personal note, I think the reason some leave CAP is because appointed leaders do not know how to lead and those leaders are befuddled by functional conflict and react to it as if it was dysfunctional conflict. Said reaction is typically asymmetrical in relation to the perceived infraction. Instead of seeking common ground or at least understanding, the so called leader passively threatens the follower until the situation has to be handled by a higher echelon. The follower leaves by one way or another and the leaders cheer that they have won because they chased away a human resource. Then those same leaders are the ones that complain that retention is a problem. I believe it is a telling sign of the organization's health when new members know the form number to terminate membership before they know what a CAPF 120 is!

^this. :)

Back when I was a squadron commander (not sure which time..<GRIN>), I used to take retention very seriously, doing things like sending members up for renewal a personal (well, mail merged, but it *looked* personal) letter to thank them for their membership, telling them to be on the look out for their renewal notice from National, etc. :) 

I also practiced (and I'd like to think I was good at it) other "good skills to retain volunteers," like being sure I wasn't wasting people's time with repetitive or poorly planned meetings, communicated well with the membership of the unit (schedule, standards, change, that sort of thing), and made people feel like their contribution, however large or small, was appreciated and recognized appropriately. In some cases, when I had parents step up to help, I made a big deal out of it, to include Certificates of Appreciation (my unit, at one point, was going thru 50-80 of those certificates a year, between appreciation to local businesses or parents who lent a hand, etc) and, when appropriate, recommendation for CAP-specific decorations such as the Commander's Commendation or awards such as senior member or cadet of the year.

On the other hand, occasionally you get a person in your unit who is, uh, how can I put this delicately?  "Someone you'd rather would darken someone else's door?"  Yeah.  Them.  People who are either there for all the wrong reasons (self-aggrandizement, ego, whatever) or just don't pack the gear to really make an appropriate contribution without being a disproportionate drain on the unit's resources (ie. guys who you have to hand hold thru everything, because they're either intellectually challenged or just not capable of being a productive member from lack of skill or whatever. Its pretty sad when you inherit a unit on Veteran's Day and the previous commander had appointed a guy as the Finance Officer who was fairly incapable of counting his wedding vegetables and getting the same number more than once.  The first thing the wing commander says upon handing you the flag is "The finance report is late.." You ask the Finance Officer for the records and he brings you a plastic shopping bag full of receipts, the CAP financial regulation, the squadron checkbook and the balance sheets with multiple scratchouts... This is not someone who should have been in that position without a much higher degree of supervision, training, experience or background.  So you do the finance report, and submit it, and the find another job for this Finance Officer, only to realize he can't even be made, say, your squadron vehicle manager because he's incapable of using the Internet, or can't remember month-to-month what he's supposed to do..)  Or, this person is just a tremendous troublemaker and you just want them "gone."

In those cases, as I've often said, "Remember those little  things that you're supposed to do to retain a member? Yeah, just don't do those things."

Eventually, they get fed up and leave. 

(NOTE: There are very limited circumstances for the use of this technique.  Its often when *everybody* in the unit is fed up with a particular individual and, while they've done nothing to warrant a legitimate CAPF 2B proceeding, you know that the unit would be *much* better off without this person.  In nearly 10 years as a unit commander, I've had TWO people like that.  In both cases, a squadron membership board would have potentially filtered them out, but once they were members they were just non-productive, and actually destructive, members.   One was a woman who we later found out a) had been convicted of embezzlement and yet conveniently left that part blank on her CAPF 12, and b) had a history of making what wound up to be false and baseless claims about other people, like sexual harrassment or whatever.   She explained the CAPF 12 thing to the satisfaction of NHQ,  but there was nothing we could have easily terminated her membership on otherwise, especially without invoking additional wrath from this woman in the form of frivolous lawsuits, etc.  So we'd change a meeting and conveniently forget to call her, etc.   And we all protected ourselves with a "no lone zone" around all of us when she was in the AO.  Finally, after about 6 months of "oh, you didn't get the message about the staff meeting change?" and things like that, she just stopped showing up. *whew*)

Sometimes I dont think its as deep as that.  Sometimes, as with my case when I let my membership lapse for about 4 years, CAP just didnt have a place in my life anymore.  I had started in LE and had other things to do.  When my membership renewal came in, volunteering was realy the last thing I had on my mind.  After that, I had pretty much totally forgotten about CAP.
About 4 years later, pretty well set in my career, I saw a CAP plane fly into Fresno and I walked over and talked to the crew who was from So Cal.  They were flying the GA-8.  I walked over, introduced myself and started telling some CAP stories etc etc.  Now look at me! 
When I left, it wasnt because someone screwed me or that I felt neglected or whatever.  It just didnt have a place in my life anymore.  CAP could have started flying Apaches helicopters ELT missions and I still wouldnt have been interested. 
Many people join for their kids.  Their kids join as cadets, so they join also.  When their cadets are done, so are they. 

Quote from: Robert Hartigan on March 19, 2011, 12:56:15 PMHis article is a good piece that will serve well as a basis for a conference seminar or professional development class or at the very least a waypoint for emerging leaders to reference.  http://www.volunteerpower.com/articles/WhyPeopleQuit.asp

I'm happy to see that scheduling made the list.  As someone who works on Saturday, I am severely limited in what I can do - the the point of where giving up has crossed my mind more than a few times.

I have to add one of my favorite quotes especially since we are discussing a problem that is a constant of any organization the size of CAP. It is from the current Mayor of Cleveland. The Honorable Frank Jackson said, "It's not that we don't know what the problems are. We've known them for years. It's not that we don't know what the solutions are. We've known those for years. The problem is we haven't done anything about it."

Robert, that about says it all.   We are so ingrained with the status quo, we don't really want to change our way of doing things. And, being mired in our own inertia, it seems we just don't want to spend the energy needed to overcome it and produce positive change. 

Of course, positive change is possible.  If our leaders really wish it.... :angel:

I let my membership expire 3 times and twice found reasons to come back and try it again.  Both times I was utterly disappointed.  This 3rd time, after expiring in December 2010, I have decided NOT to renew yet again. 

I have a lot more fond memories than bad, and I'd like to keep it that way.  In the end, I think my personality and leadership style did not meld well with current members at the squadron level.  No fights or arguments, I just wasn't understood.  I was highly successfull as a squadron deputy commander for cadets and squadron commander.  But perhaps I have passed my prime in CAP.

1987 to 2010, I'd say I had a good run.  Maybe I'll start all over again in 9 years when my son is old enough to join.

Hummmmm....could it be that most CAPTALKERS are inactive membership wise?   It would seem that most of the more prolific ones are no longer members.

I think it says much of Civil Air Patrol that many CAPTalk contributors are former members. 
We need to learn from others mistakes and experiences; as well as our own.   CAPTALK gives us the Forum to exchange ideas with all.  And, as a well moderated forum, CAPTALK currently is the best (IMO) venue for this exchange.

Does anyone really have a problem with this???

Long-time lurker, first time poster.

I am a WAY "former member", having been a cadet in the 1975-80 timeframe, now all growed-up, in the last few years of a military career, and weighing joining CAP as a Senior Member.  Additionally, at least two of my military peers have recently asked my opinion of CAP for them and their cadet aged kids.

As part of my "recon" I have chatted with CAP members encountered at airports, airshows, military installations, and other venues. Additionally, I have held my nose and plummed the internet. (I will say that CAP TALK seems the most balanced and frank resource).

Sadly I am leaning strongly away from involvement in CAP. Very sadly because I think, with SIGNIFICANT BUT ACHIEVABLE CHANGES, Civil Air Patrol could have an incredible potential for both the cadet program and for General Aviation. But I don't see it ever happening.

Here is what I have observed:

1. CAP seems stuck in the same time-warp as 1975.  The same or lower SAR statistical claims, the same dingy church basement meetings, the same wanna-be pretenders, and the same focus on scandal and backstabbing.

2. Little-to-no connection, interest, or relevance to General Aviation. Certainly nothing to appeal to the demographic with the income/net-worth required to be actively involved in GA.

3. A seeming active discouragement of pilots joining. At least 2-3 times I have been engaged by a CAP member, and when I mention "Oh, that sounds interesting, I'm a private pilot" they immediately shut me down with "Well, CAP IS NOT A FLYING CLUB."  WTF???

(Well, no [Filter Subversion], I know that CAP is not a "flying club" but ya know what? Since CAP doesn't seem to thrive very [Filter Subversion] well on it's own, maybe when I next spend some quality time with my Representative or Senator, or just some staffer or General Officer, I just might be tempted to blurt out: "Hey, those CAP clowns should be de-funded of tax money and turned into A FLYING CLUB!")

4. 2b !! Or not to be, that is the question. That comment above about Form 2b is so completely on the mark. I remember that "2B" crap from all the way back in 1975 - endless waves of witch-hunts and Stalinist purges, the rumors of which filtered down even to us cadets. Enthusiastic new senior member, pilots, ex-military, airplane owners....one after the other, all chased away. And I do not blame these achievers for "not participating" - they tried, but are not the class of people who will willingly bang their heads for more than 6-12 months without result.

Well, that's my opening rant. [darn] glad to be here!

Quote from: AbnMedOps on March 21, 2011, 02:30:36 AM
3. A seeming active discouragement of pilots joining. At least 2-3 times I have been engaged by a CAP member, and when I mention "Oh, that sounds interesting, I'm a private pilot" they immediately shut me down with "Well, CAP IS NOT A FLYING CLUB."  WTF???

(Well, no [Filter Subversion], I know that CAP is not a "flying club" but ya know what? Since CAP doesn't seem to thrive very [Filter Subversion] well on it's own, maybe when I next spend some quality time with my Representative or Senator, or just some staffer or General Officer, I just might be tempted to blurt out: "Hey, those CAP clowns should be de-funded of tax money and turned into A FLYING CLUB!")

Probably because we have had way more then a few "new members" join just so they can fly for free. Seems they were told that flying for CAP is really cheap.

I certainly wouldn't view CAPTalk as a balanced representation of CAP.  The vast majority of CAP members have their heads down and get the job done.  Only a tiny number come here to discuss issues that 99% of CAP members don't really care about very much.  If you want to have a great time in CAP and do some good, immediately stop paying attention to CAPTalk or anything outside of whatever squadron you might join. 

In general I'd say that you're in a very strange area if CAP members are giving you that sort of attitude about joining as a private pilot.  However, keep in mind that we in CAP are quite often approached by pilots who very clearly are just interested in free or cheap flying and couldn't care less about our missions.  Its entirely possibly that you gave off such a vibe, whether you intended to or not. 

Wow, AbnMedOps, your post hast to be the most negative of anyone who has ever come into contact with our organization.  Sure, some of what you say is correct, but I'm willing to bet that the situations you mention were made by INDIVIDUALS and and are not representative of CAP as a whole.  It amazes me that, since 1975, you seem to have found only those who comprise the Anti-CAP crowd.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but CAP is not a flying club.  The reason that we must remind prospective members of that fact is because so many pilots will only join if allowed to fly cheap/free.  The hard-working members of our organization are not "anti-pilot" and certainly not "anti-military," we are just frustrated when we can't get an iota of "other" work from those who join only to fly. 

Now - for you to threaten to bad-mouth CAP to your representative, senator and any general officers you encounter because you've had some bad experiences, makes me glad that you've decided to leave us alone. As much as you try to hide it, you're carrying quite a bit of venom about our organizaiton.  Actually, considering the fact that your only experience with CAP has been as a cadet, you've never had a chance to experience membership while holding a position that could allow you to make positive changes.  Certainly you must know that false allegations are common in any (relatively) large organziation. 

Good luck in your military career, Sir.  I regret that you have such a negative perception of CAP but am grateful that you have decided to stay away.  We may be far from perfect, but we're better-off without YOU!   

Lay off the personal attacks... You know the rules.

rmcmanus,

Perhaps I didn't express myself as clearly as I should have. It is not that I necessarily would make that remark to my Congressman, but that I would even feel inclined ot do so...and if little-old-me would have that knee-jerk reaction, then I am pretty sure that there must a heck of a lot of other people out there who might also...and many who probably have.

Just look at the type of posts concerning CAP you will find, by the bucket load, on AOPA and many other sites. The specifics complaint and observations often closely align with the commentary on this very board. It seems that the very same conditions and problems continue to plague CAP, year after year and decade after decade. If I am negative, I am severely negative about the apparent fact that NOTHING EVER SEEMS TO CHANGE OR IMPROVE.

Why does this arguably marginal organization continue to generate so much emotion? The love/hate dynamic surrounding CAP is simply amazing to a semi-outsider like myself, and absolutely fatal to the organization when potential members or supporters of CAP are exposed to it.

There are a whole lot of really good and well meaning people, seemingly flailing away in a dysfunctional organizational model that just doesn't seem to be capable of change. Then, after a while, they become former members.

I would love to present some of my ideas for change (or "agendas", if you prefer) for critique.

When I was commander of the Composite Squadron, one of my goals was to promote better relationships with the GA community.  That included helping out with "fly ins" and putting a friendly face on CAP.  Cadets helps out at County Airports and we made efforts to be as helpful as we would.

CAP should have a great relationship with the General Aviation community...I think it is an unwritten mission.  Pilots should be happy to see us and we should be ready to help them if we can.

Quote from: AbnMedOps on March 21, 2011, 02:30:36 AM
3. A seeming active discouragement of pilots joining. At least 2-3 times I have been engaged by a CAP member, and when I mention "Oh, that sounds interesting, I'm a private pilot" they immediately shut me down with "Well, CAP IS NOT A FLYING CLUB."  WTF???

(Well, no [Filter Subversion], I know that CAP is not a "flying club" but ya know what? Since CAP doesn't seem to thrive very [Filter Subversion] well on it's own, maybe when I next spend some quality time with my Representative or Senator, or just some staffer or General Officer, I just might be tempted to blurt out: "Hey, those CAP clowns should be de-funded of tax money and turned into A FLYING CLUB!")

I read AbnMedOps comment above as more of a "could happen if all the stars align just right" sort of thing. A reaction on his part to a errant, however condescending remark that he has taken as an insult to his experience and understanding of CAP.  I seriously doubt AbnMedOps would follow through on such an action and even if he did I doubt it would result in congressional action.

I could see the situation play out where someone is interested in CAP and because of some misunderstanding or comments being taken out of context they leave with a negative impression. Then when his friend mention CAP the story is told of his experience and the multiplier effect of customer service results in two less members of CAP. 

Characteristics of the perceiver, characteristics of the target and characteristics of the situation combine to form the process of interpreting information about another person however; barriers like stereotyping, first-impression error and projection may give
inaccurate information. Extreme care must be taken to avoid primacy effects and first impression errors with all initial staff interactions with the public given the remarks and comments of bloggers and forum posters like AbnMedOps.

Quote from: AbnMedOps on March 21, 2011, 04:02:22 AM

It seems that the very same conditions and problems continue to plague CAP, year after year and decade after decade. If I am negative, I am severely negative about the apparent fact that NOTHING EVER SEEMS TO CHANGE OR IMPROVE.

( . . .)

I would love to present some of my ideas for change (or "agendas", if you prefer) for critique.

Quote from: FW on March 20, 2011, 10:34:22 PM
Does anyone really have a problem with this???

Apparently so.

Ask a silly question . . .

I can't wait for futher insight by anonymous disgruntled fomer members.

^  What Robert Hartigan said!   :)   

Thank you for articulating  my in inarticulateness, sir!

Ned, I have enjoyed your reasoned posts. If you care to use the email feature, I would be happy privately shed my "anonymous" screen name and introduce myself. I do not however desire to post my name in a public forum.

Not sure that I qualify as "disgruntled".... I had a mostly good experience as a cadet, and I hold the best wishes for the organization. But I do have some serious, and I think well-found reservations. Well-founded, or otherwise there wouldn't be this many people on this particular thread.

Quote from: AbnMedOps on March 21, 2011, 04:02:22 AM
rmcmanus,

Perhaps I didn't express myself as clearly as I should have. It is not that I necessarily would make that remark to my Congressman, but that I would even feel inclined ot do so...and if little-old-me would have that knee-jerk reaction, then I am pretty sure that there must a heck of a lot of other people out there who might also...and many who probably have.

Just look at the type of posts concerning CAP you will find, by the bucket load, on AOPA and many other sites. The specifics complaint and observations often closely align with the commentary on this very board. It seems that the very same conditions and problems continue to plague CAP, year after year and decade after decade. If I am negative, I am severely negative about the apparent fact that NOTHING EVER SEEMS TO CHANGE OR IMPROVE.

Why does this arguably marginal organization continue to generate so much emotion? The love/hate dynamic surrounding CAP is simply amazing to a semi-outsider like myself, and absolutely fatal to the organization when potential members or supporters of CAP are exposed to it.

There are a whole lot of really good and well meaning people, seemingly flailing away in a dysfunctional organizational model that just doesn't seem to be capable of change. Then, after a while, they become former members.

I would love to present some of my ideas for change (or "agendas", if you prefer) for critique.

I think that if you wanted to tell your congressman how you feel about CAP you should, but a real life reasoning is that nothing will come of it. Congress is going to vote on the Congressional Gold Medal for cap and it will pass with 100% support. CAP has done way to much good for someone of little to no importance to make a difference.

And lets also be honest with ourselves here...any organization has people (ex members or not) that will yell doom and gloom about it. That includes every police force on the planet, every military, judge, jury, hospital, car dealership, internet provider, even your (shocking i know) congressman has the people that hate it/them. Yet, they are still around...

So I'm sorry if you have "reservations" about CAP. Put them out here and lets talk about them. The vast majority of the posters here hold command positions or staff positions or both. So lets hear your problems and lets talk about them.

Quote from: AbnMedOps on March 21, 2011, 04:27:32 AM
Not sure that I qualify as "disgruntled"....

Well, call me crazy, but anyone who comes on here and anonymously posts about "wannabe pretenders" and a "focus on scandal and backstabbing" in their very first post does not sound like someone who is currently "gruntled."   8)

QuoteI had a mostly good experience as a cadet, and I hold the best wishes for the organization. But I do have some serious, and I think well-found reservations. Well-founded, or otherwise there wouldn't be this many people on this particular thread.

See, that's the internet for you.  The fact that a dozen or so (mostly unhappy) former members continue to post on any internet forum related to CAP is not a very meaningful event.  It actually says a lot more about them than it does about CAP when you consider that we have had over a million members since our inception. 

Some folks deliberately come here with a hidden agenda to spin and churn the waters.  Some were indeed wronged and simply can't let go.  Some are simple trolls and delight in causing trouble for its own sake.

Sadly, that means that even well-meaning former members with positive insights and suggestions have a difficult time being heard and taken seriously. 

This is not a CAPTalk-specific phenomena.  Sadly, there is a trail of dead CAP fora that lead here; many overtaken by such "nattering nabobs of negativism" that average dedicated CAP volunteers were driven away.  This site is indeed well moderated.  But the combination of anonymity and unhappy internet users posting late in the night is a difficult combination for any moderator.  I don't envy them.

As it turns out, I'm actually one of the few CAP members whose job it is to listen to and represent the interests of all members.  That is literally my job description as one of the At Large BoG guys.  So I do spend a lot of time reading and considering the traffic both here and on CadetStuff.  I go to a lot of conferences and activities to meet members and talk about stuff like retention and governance.

And you would be surprised what shows up in my email and PM box.  Human nature being what it is, nobody ever writes to me to say "Hey, just wanted you to know that I'm having a great time in CAP!"  But a lot of people write to tell me about problems.  A lot of problems.  Everything from a suspicion that their squadron commander is playing favorites to vague and ominous warnings that our senior leadership is Evil and Not To Be Trusted.  And a lot in-between.

Which is fine, of course.  It is indeed my job to listen to and represent the membership.  I can't fix specific problems because I have no command authority whatsoever.  But I can be part of systemic fixes, which is gratifying when we can make it happen.

So, the email button works both ways.  If you have realistic issues and potential solutions, I'd love to hear about them.  If I have the time to bat them back and forth a bit, I'd be happy to do that too.

But I have a hard time giving weight or serious attention to anonymous rants.  (Which I think was your choice of words.)

I believe this is actually a good thread.  At least its intentions are good.

Even though there are former members on here that have had problems with CAP in both the past and present, it still keeps us on our toes in our efforts to both recruit and retain.

AbnMedOps's comments have made me wonder how many other former members are out there with the same opinions about CAP.  He just simply put it all on the table.  Not that it was done in an appropriate manner for a CAP-themed site, but it was said none the less.

For those of us who have been in for many years, we can probably find a former member with AbnMedOps's view of CAP.  Sometimes even worse!  I think this should be considered a "wake up call" for those who try to sell CAP in our backyards and learn from it.  We can try to change ones opinion but only if we know the facts and we can explain to them (sensibly) where they are confused.

I have spent the last 14 years of my life in CAP and plan to continue to do so. I may not agree with the leadership at times but thats just when I remind myself that the program has changed since I joined and I am here to give back to CAP what it gave me as a cadet.

However that being said a year or so ago I was assigned as Advisor to the Commander of a unit that had just switched from Senior Squadron to Composite Squadron. The squadron commander has 2 years in CAP but very little working knowledge of the regs or the programs.

I had many seniors leave the program because they felt that youth should not be part of the program, I had one leave over a removal of duty position even though he was not showing up as he also felt youth shouldn't be involved.

I had one member threaten to leave because the at time Deputy Commander for Seniors was constantly showing up to meetings 45 minutes late and not having anything prepared for the Seniors to train on or do.

I had a Senior Member leave because she was verbally harassed by a at time Wing Staff Member for preforming her actual day job (Interpreter for the Deaf) for a Deaf Senior Member at Wing Cadet Competition where she wasn't wearing a CAP Uniform however when Interpreting you can't wear anything that has designs on it (spoke to NHQ and as long as she is functioning as a Interpreter there is nothing we can do about the uniform as it would violate ADA by failure to provide reasonable communications) and because of the lack of training scheduled by the Squadron Deputy Commander of Seniors.

Quote from: Ned on March 21, 2011, 04:18:10 AM

Quote from: AbnMedOps on March 21, 2011, 04:02:22 AM

It seems that the very same conditions and problems continue to plague CAP, year after year and decade after decade. If I am negative, I am severely negative about the apparent fact that NOTHING EVER SEEMS TO CHANGE OR IMPROVE.

( . . .)

I would love to present some of my ideas for change (or "agendas", if you prefer) for critique.

Quote from: FW on March 20, 2011, 10:34:22 PM
Does anyone really have a problem with this???

Apparently so.

Ask a silly question . . .

I can't wait for futher insight by anonymous disgruntled fomer members.

Gee, Ned, I don't think our (explative deleted) former members have a problem with CAPTalk.... >:D

Quote from: AbnMedOps on March 21, 2011, 02:30:36 AM3. A seeming active discouragement of pilots joining. At least 2-3 times I have been engaged by a CAP member, and when I mention "Oh, that sounds interesting, I'm a private pilot" they immediately shut me down with "Well, CAP IS NOT A FLYING CLUB."  WTF???

(Well, no [Filter Subversion], I know that CAP is not a "flying club" but ya know what? Since CAP doesn't seem to thrive very [Filter Subversion] well on it's own, maybe when I next spend some quality time with my Representative or Senator, or just some staffer or General Officer, I just might be tempted to blurt out: "Hey, those CAP clowns should be de-funded of tax money and turned into A FLYING CLUB!")

Welcome to CAPTalk.

BTW - CAP is not a flying club, and the vast majority of those doing the heavy lifting in the organization, are not, and never have been pilots.  No one should be telling you that on th initial meet-up, however the expectations should be set properly on day one so that new members, who happen to be pilots, understand that their aviation skills are important and valued, but not the only reason we want them to join, and flying will not be the
only thing they are expected to do.

Back to the original thread ...

I posted for quite some time on CAP Talk as a "former" member (well, retired, anyway) before I came back into the fold in 2009.  I maintained some contact with CAP even though I had burned out after 16 years (1981-1997).  Having spent six stressful but fun years as a squadron commander and then moving to the group staff level, I felt at that point I'd done all I could in CAP and the break was very very medicinal to me.

When I came back in, it was to do one specific job in the unit I used to command, and I've had a ball ever since.

Jack

I left because of the politics and fallout after She Who Must Be Obeyed destroyed the Iowa Wing.  We were making great strides to bring CAP in Iowa into the 21st century and become a vital and meaningful organization and partner to the State (who, by the way, gave us MISSIONS, things I hear are scarce these days).

Where did I go?  I traded in my BDU's for ODU's and am happily serving the US Coast Guard as an Auxiliarist.  It is very rewarding to work for a parent organization who WANTS us around, treats us as equals, and thanks us for our service.  I have had the honor of being under orders now twice for the Coast Guard and am preparing to be deployed again for the Red River flooding this Spring.

Do I miss the CAP, heck yes.  As a former Cadet and Senior it pained me to no end to leave.  I do hope the AF finds you guys more missions to stay relevant in the future, I'd hate for the organization to meet an end due to irrelevance.

Trevor
Former Member

QuoteBTW - CAP is not a flying club, and the vast majority of those doing the heavy lifting in the organization, are not, and never have been pilots.

I agree - they might be pilots, but a lot of the work is non-pilot duties.

QuoteNo one should be telling you that on th initial meet-up, however the expectations should be set properly on day one so that new members, who happen to be pilots, understand that their aviation skills are important and valued, but not the only reason we want them to join, and flying will not be the only thing they are expected to do.

I only know of a few units that are doing that, and they are the better units in the wing.

Quote from: TDHenderson on March 21, 2011, 03:17:21 PMWhere did I go?  I traded in my BDU's for ODU's and am happily serving the US Coast Guard as an Auxiliarist.  It is very rewarding to work for a parent organization who WANTS us around, treats us as equals, and thanks us for our service.  I have had the honor of being under orders now twice for the Coast Guard and am preparing to be deployed again for the Red River flooding this Spring.

I'm not a "grass is always greener on the other side" kinda guy, but I've noticed this mantra from Coast Guard auxiliarists and I can't help but wonder if it's true. I have seen no indication from the USAF that they will ever adopt the Coast Guard's approach to working with their auxiliary and CAP hasn't been assigned any new emergency services responsibilities to fill the void left by the lack of ELT monitoring. What we do very well however is the cadet program, is it CAP's fate to drop a mission and end up with just two?

I was once a volunteer with a group whose parent service was a police department. For a number of reasons, the PD began requesting assistance from this volunteer group less and less to the point all the group ever did was train but was never called upon to help. Sure, the Chief would send someone by once a year to declare how important the volunteers were to the PD and how much they appreciated the volunteers, but eventually most the volunteers got fed up with spending enormous amounts of time and energy training and never getting the opportunity to use that training for real. Most left, pretty much the only folks who stuck around were those that really liked wearing a police uniform and dropping "I'm with the police department" in as many conversations as possible.

I fear the same is occurring within the ES side of CAP right now, mostly because I've lived through it before and I'm starting to recognize the signs. We either need to find another large government agency that is willing to oversee us in the way that congress currently has the USAF doing, get the USAF to find us more missions we can effectively perform for them, or perhaps a combination of the two. Otherwise I fear I'll see history repeat and we'll end up with a lot more former members at a faster attrition rate than we can sustain.

Quote from: Fubar on March 21, 2011, 10:04:25 PM

Quote from: TDHenderson on March 21, 2011, 03:17:21 PMWhere did I go?  I traded in my BDU's for ODU's and am happily serving the US Coast Guard as an Auxiliarist.  It is very rewarding to work for a parent organization who WANTS us around, treats us as equals, and thanks us for our service.  I have had the honor of being under orders now twice for the Coast Guard and am preparing to be deployed again for the Red River flooding this Spring.

I'm not a "grass is always greener on the other side" kinda guy, but I've noticed this mantra from Coast Guard auxiliarists and I can't help but wonder if it's true. I have seen no indication from the USAF that they will ever adopt the Coast Guard's approach to working with their auxiliary and CAP hasn't been assigned any new emergency services responsibilities to fill the void left by the lack of ELT monitoring. What we do very well however is the cadet program, is it CAP's fate to drop a mission and end up with just two?

I was once a volunteer with a group whose parent service was a police department. For a number of reasons, the PD began requesting assistance from this volunteer group less and less to the point all the group ever did was train but was never called upon to help. Sure, the Chief would send someone by once a year to declare how important the volunteers were to the PD and how much they appreciated the volunteers, but eventually most the volunteers got fed up with spending enormous amounts of time and energy training and never getting the opportunity to use that training for real. Most left, pretty much the only folks who stuck around were those that really liked wearing a police uniform and dropping "I'm with the police department" in as many conversations as possible.

I fear the same is occurring within the ES side of CAP right now, mostly because I've lived through it before and I'm starting to recognize the signs. We either need to find another large government agency that is willing to oversee us in the way that congress currently has the USAF doing, get the USAF to find us more missions we can effectively perform for them, or perhaps a combination of the two. Otherwise I fear I'll see history repeat and we'll end up with a lot more former members at a faster attrition rate than we can sustain.

Get your ground pounders together and call your local friendly Red Cross chapter. I'm pretty sure they would like the extra hands come a natural disaster.

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 21, 2011, 10:11:00 PMGet your ground pounders together and call your local friendly Red Cross chapter. I'm pretty sure they would like the extra hands come a natural disaster.

Very true, but they'll want everyone who shows up to become a Red Cross member. There is a significant amount of training that they do in their DSHR system and they won't care about any CAP training received (most of it won't be applicable anyway). They do have a procedure for "spontaneous volunteers" to handle the influx of folks who just show up to help during a disaster, but they limit what they can do and try to funnel them into becoming a regular ARC member.

As to ground teams, I'm afraid it's one of the signs of a mass pending exodus I've seen before. Granted, these types of things can be locally driven, but ground teams here really aren't mobilized because they are rarely needed. Again, lots of training but never getting the call to use the training.

I'm by no means lamenting the lack of crashed aircraft, fortunately it doesn't happen often. In those rare occasions where an aircraft has crashed someplace other than the airport, my wing has located the aircraft and notified the local law enforcement agency. LE gets their people on scene within minutes thanks to their helicopters. They call the air ambulance and the patient(s) are whisked away. All of this occurs while the ground team is either mustering up before departure or making a multi-hour drive (adhering to posted speed limits) to the crash location. By the time the ground team arrives, the only thing they end up doing is "scene security" for a few hours and then going home. This hasn't led to retaining talented ground team members.

of the 5 most recent (within the last 2 years) live missions our squadron has been tasked, only 1 involved a downed aircraft.  The other 4 were ground searches for missing persons.  We also responded to 2 ELT searches right before the changeover.

The specific reason I left CAP was a realization of a lack of integrity among some officers at Wing and Region level, but my dissatisfaction with CAP (and Wing's dissatisfaction with me) had been growing for some time.

I spent many years as an Army officer, and believe I can correctly diagnose and treat the organizational malaise that CAP suffers with.

CAP pays lip service to "Excellence," but violently resists any efforts to achieve excellence.  Training of junior officers is poor, and the cadet program has been dumbed-down and softened to the point that it is meaningless.  Yet each time I proposed changes to improve officer training, I was met with "We can't do that." or "This is a volunteer organization."  "You can't get the pilots to... (insert any task here)."

At a FL Wing encampment, even the cadets were moaning how soft the training was.   Apparently, FL Wing thinks we have a bunch of delicate delinquents wearing AF blue.

CAP regs set no appearance or realistic training standard.  Charlie Manson and ZZ top can run cadet programs or fly missions if they wear white and gray.  Moms can run cadet programs after taking an online course with a paragraph about saluting.  Cub Scout den mothers get more training than CAP provides for junior cadet program officers.  Yet we tell our "Customers" that we are the auxiliary of the finest Air Force in the world.  They can see with their own eyes that we would not stand up favorably against the Libyan Air Force Junior ROTC.

Training is hard work.  CAP does not want to do the hard work of training a viable and respectable force.  It is easier to find excuses.

The lack of integrity pushed me over the edge.  The lack of excellence drove me to the cliff.

ONE week after I joined CAP, I was made the Squadron DCC. When I expressed concern, I was told that is where the need was and, after all, I had been a cadet 30 years earlier. Shortly after that the Squadron commander was relieved due to unethical behavior. It seemed that for years the commander's behavior had been tolerated and overlooked because there was nobody else available for the position. I thought at the time that surely this was not the norm in CAP. Sadly, I learned that while it was not the norm, it was not uncommon.

I loved my time in CAP and served on staff at wing encampments, Region Staff Colleges, RCLS (in 2 Regions) several National Cadet Special Activities, and COS, as well as making several presentations from Wing to National Conferences. While in CAP, I met many wonderful and dedicated members.

In my 10 years in CAP, I went from 2nd Lt to Lt Col and even received my GRW Award. I was on Squadron, Wing, Region and National staffs.  The lack of integrity and respect at each level amazed me. Seems folks often just tolerated, overlooked or justified the behavior. I did for a long time because I loved what I was doing in CAP.

I finally decided that I no longer wanted to be in an organization that talked a lot about core vales but those values were often lacking in the leadership. It surprised many when I left because I didn't go away angry or due to a scandal of some sorts, I was just disappointed.

...the stories that could be told (good and bad)  but I think I am not the only one who could tell them.

 A number of years ago, I "took a year off" from the organization. I returned in order to keep a promise.

I've stayed in order to keep that promise and to pay a few things forward.

There are a number of things that have disappointed me within the organization, but I have a promise to keep.

Quote from: Fubar on March 21, 2011, 10:04:25 PM
I'm not a "grass is always greener on the other side" kinda guy, but I've noticed this mantra from Coast Guard auxiliarists and I can't help but wonder if it's true.

I can't speak for all of the Auxiliary but our Flotilla (equivalent of the CAP Squadron) is very Operationally oriented.  Not all Flotillas are this way, unfortunately some are "Yacht Clubs", the equivalent of the CAP "Flying Club" Squadrons.  They do the minimum to keep their yearly qualifications satisfied.

But, there are more and more Auxiliarists waking up to our current and growing future role as a force-multiplier to the Active Duty CG and Reserves.  Over the last few years several of our Flotilla members have been activated for duty in supporting the CG response (ICS Staffing and Communications) to the Red River Flooding in ND and MN and we had one member deploy to the Deepwater Horizon response working Communications.  Currently we have several members who are qualified as Crew Members on the first Airboat facilitized (the process where a members boat, radio, or aircraft is accepted for official use by the Auxiliary) for use in the Auxiliary (they are on standby to deploy for the flood areas this year), and three members qualified to serve alongside the Active Duty CG on an RB-S (Response Boat Small, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USCG_Defender_class_boat).

Nationwide there are Auxiliarists working at many Coast Guard stations in various Logistical, Communications, and Administrative roles.  Some get deployed on Cutters as Chefs (a relatively new program for Auxiliarists is the AuxChef program, training us to serve as Chefs for the AD, not glamorous but needed and appreciated), and some overseas as Language Translators.  We are allowed to do anything the AD CG needs BUT law enforcement and direct military action.

All-in-all, it is what you and your local unit make of it.

Trevor

Quote from: TDHenderson on March 22, 2011, 02:07:30 PMAll-in-all, it is what you and your local unit make of it.

..and the same goes for 'us', too. I could let all my dis-satisfaction with Wing leadership get to me, or I can mostly ignore it and concentrate on our corner of the program and contribute to our unit so that we can get yet another award from NHQ, do our best to advance one more level at the region Cadet Competition and over all help these cadets get all they can get out of our, about to turn 70, program so some of them will help make it last another 70.

I think we do it to ourselves.  The more we become involved with the program (ie move beyond the squadron level) the more we see the parts of the program (the back stabbing or the politicing, double talk, etc etc or whatever your problem may be) that no one wants to see/admit is there.  The people that have good strong local level programs that dont have to involve themselves with the "rest" of CAP are usually pretty happy and satisfied with the program; it seems once we travel out of this happy little corner of the world the frustration seems to mount.


mk

SARMED is right in that th higher you go from the Squadron level, the more politics and back stabbing occurs. But it wasn't always like that. I served on both Wing and Region staff during a period where politics would be somewhere in the 10% range of politics today. The difference....USAF ran CAP. The National Commander was a General grade Air Force Officer, and USAF had staffs in every Wing. The dual chain of command, USAF and Corporate worked together. And the Air Force staff, (Wing USAF-CAP Liaision Officers), provided the Wing Corporate side a brake on politics. Basically if the National Commander objected to an action by the National Board of NEC, it didn't happen. Starting in the 1970's this started to change. The National Commander became Commander CAP-USAF and the position was lowered to be filled by Colonels. Then the Air Force staffs at Wing was dropped replaced by the civilian Wing Directors, and Wing Administrators.
My Region Commander who retired from being Vice Commander CAP-USAF made sure that Region Commanders calls were held in conjunction with the NEC meetings, both held at Maxwell. Thus Region Staff sat in on the NEC meetings and could make comments on pending actions thru the Region CC. This allowed comments and suggestions from the field to be heard at the NEC level. During this period in CAP history, there was cooperation between the Corporate side, the Air Force side and very little politics involved. But those days are gone forever. Region Commanders were more or less bound to follow the recommendation of the Wing Commander Selection Boards which did not involve politics. This is unlike the situation in one Wing where the incoming Wing CC is leaked before the Selection Board even meets.
In todays CAP, only the BoG has the power to change the governence of CAP. With the external consultents study underway perhaps the BoG with come up with a governence plan that eliminates some of the politics that is rampent in the organization.

My membership goes back to the early 60s with service on Wing and Region staffs.  My recollections are somewhat different.

The CAP Natl. Commander was in fact an AF officer who was usually on their sunset tour or brought out of retirement for the assignment.  The same held true for the Wing L/Os.  Most of them just wanted to finish their tour and retire. 

The Natl Hq was staffed by AF and GS employees.  They did things in their own sweet time and were less than responsive to contact with CAP members.  Have current members who say things would be better if the AF still ran NHQ considered that the NHQ  is now staffed by enough retired O5s-O6s they could have their own chapter of ROA.  NHQ is much more responsive now than when the AF ran it.

CAP politics has always been just as bad as it is now.  The only difference is that today it is waaay more accessible to the membership.  If there was no internet would the membership be as aware?  No CAP Talk, no web page, no streaming internet of meetings.  In the "good ole days" it was all done by phone and snail mail.  So it was there just like today, just not as accessable.  Remember when the only contact the membership had with NHQ was the little 1-2 page monthly newsletter?

I've been in and out of CAP a couple of times...for reasons varying from sick-of-the-politics to geographic moves.

I've also been a CG Auxiliarist.  When they are at their best is when they are being an integral component of the Coast Guard.  When you are someone who doesn't own a boat, never has, probably never will (yours truly) and you are in a flotilla with a bunch of boat owners who do little other than talk about their boats...kind of a stinko situation.

I think people leave for reasons as varied as the membership themselves.

The politics...the "flying club" mentality of some units where you don't matter unless you're a pilot...the incorrect expectations on joining (I was told that the only reason senior members were there were to be "counsellors" to the cadets)...it runs the gamut.

To answer the the question... I am a former member.  I served as a cadet from 1985 until August of 1990, when I joined the Marines.  I loved my time with the CAP.  I literally lived for each meeting and event.   I joined again, as a senior member, in 1998.  I was only a participant for like a month, then let my membership lapse, due to some things I saw at the unit.  I wanted to join another unit again here, in CA, last year.  I showed up for a meeting and saw some more things I did not like and decided not to pursue a membership. 

Since then, I have joined up with a local Sea Cadet unit and love it. 

The reason I am a member of this site is that my interest in the CAP program is still present.  I have many good memories as a cadet and do not want to sever my ties with this organization.

I am not a member of the CG AUX, but I can tell you that the CG places much more trust and value in their Aux program than the Air Force. I cannot go to a base(even a small one) and not see CG AUX personnel actively engaged in CG operations, working along side with the AD counterparts.  I feel that they are an outstanding force multiplier and am glad to have them around.  I wish the AF felt the same about their Aux members.

Most of us wish that, Paul...that we could augment the Air Force in ways that the CGAUX does with the CG.

I was in the CGAUX so I got to see it firsthand.

Even as a one-stripe Flotilla Staff Officer at a Change of Watch, I was having AD/Reserve CG NCO's, WO's and Commissioned Officers coming up to talk with me.  That was cool.

I considered the NSCC at one time during one of my "breaks in service" in CAP.  My first squadron met at an Armed Forces Reserve facility that had an NSCC unit.  They sometimes were better with customs/courtesies and military bearing than our cadets.

Maybe after I "retire" from CAP I'll give them another look. :)

Quote from: PaulR on March 26, 2011, 05:56:37 AMI am not a member of the CG AUX, but I can tell you that the CG places much more trust and value in their Aux program than the Air Force. I cannot go to a base(even a small one) and not see CG AUX personnel actively engaged in CG operations, working along side with the AD counterparts.  I feel that they are an outstanding force multiplier and am glad to have them around.  I wish the AF felt the same about their Aux members.

Got any augmentee slots open on BERTHOLF?  What I wouldn't do for a chance to get some sea time on a shiny new NSC... Hell, I'll chip paint and clean heads... and do the Aux Cutterman PQS when I'm off watch.

Quote from: MIKE on March 26, 2011, 02:26:45 PM
Got any augmentee slots open on BERTHOLF?  What I wouldn't do for a chance to get some sea time on a shiny new NSC... Hell, I'll chip paint and clean heads... and do the Aux Cutterman PQS when I'm off watch.

Actually, this may be a reality in the future.  It is being discussed.  I doubt that you would be cleaning heads though.  LOL

What are the requirements for a Aux Cutterman Badge?  I did not even know that it existed.  I just got my permanent one last week.

Quote from: PaulR on March 26, 2011, 05:15:29 PM

Quote from: MIKE on March 26, 2011, 02:26:45 PM
Got any augmentee slots open on BERTHOLF?  What I wouldn't do for a chance to get some sea time on a shiny new NSC... Hell, I'll chip paint and clean heads... and do the Aux Cutterman PQS when I'm off watch.

Actually, this may be a reality in the future.  It is being discussed.  I doubt that you would be cleaning heads though.  LOL

What are the requirements for a Aux Cutterman Badge?  I did not even know that it existed.  I just got my permanent one last week.

http://www.uscg.mil/directives/ci/1000-1999/CI_1650_9.pdf

Just like in the military world I encourage members who are disgruntled/burned out or whatever you want to call it to go to the IRR....or in CAP's case Patron status.  It puts you into the holding patern, freezes you base accomplishments (obviuosly as in both cases re-cuurent taks training and qulification's expire) but it leaves you as a part of (though in most cases a distant part)  the family.  The benefit is that if your life situation changes its much easier to get back into the fold.  From the CAP side things like: kids (could be yours or a family member's) getting into the program or a change of location that seems to have a better program for you to go to or just nostalgia etc etc.  I have even seen people come back into the program just to work certain NCSA's (yeah I know a little shallow in some respects, but could be an outstanding resource to some very specific nitch)....and some other invite only type of operations/activites/missions.

mk

^^Which is what I should have done.

I would probably be a LtCol by now.

I put in 15 years, both as a cadet and senior, before letting my membership expire.  For me, it was a case of I had done everything I wanted to do in CAP, gone as high/far as I was going to go in the organization, and just plain was ready to be done.  I've got two small kids and a job that keeps me away from home a lot.  I needed to spend more time with my family when I wasn't working, so CAP was the thing that got the axe.  I started as a cadet in the early 90's and left as a Wing Director of Operations in 2008.  I got my Mitchell, worked with Cadet Programs for a while, was a Wing Safety Officer, had every pilot qualification you could have in CAP, several ES qualifications including IC, and had done almost every flight ops related job you could except for maintenance (and even then, I did a lot of maintenance work as the DO).

I was able to leave CAP at a point where I wasn't upset, disgruntled, or mad with CAP.  I just reached a point where I had a replacement trained, was stepping down from the job anyways, and bowing out 100% made the most sense personally.  There were several attempts made to get me to stay and do various things.  But I just plain don't have the time to do a lot of things in CAP to the level I'd want to do them to.  I don't need to fly CAP's planes, since I fly about 400-500 hours a year at work.  I still keep in touch with many friends from CAP and keep semi-informed via the internet, and there are times I think about rejoining.  But every hour I spend doing something for CAP is an hour less I get to spend with my kids, who already don't see me half the time anyways because I'm out on the road.

Sure, the politics and BS could be frustrating, but I had my methods for dealing with it.  I had a great boss in CAP who pretty much let me do my thing and stayed out of my way.  I had good working relationships with my customers, vendors, and NHQ.  Most of my headaches came from pilots doing stupid crap in airplanes or unit commanders moaning about not having an airplane assigned to them.  I did my job with some advice given to me by the State Director when I first took the DO job "If someone's not pissed off at you at any given moment, you're probably not doing your job right."  So all in all, my last three years in CAP, as the Wing DO, were probably my most enjoyable. 

So when I left, I got to go out on top.  And I'm happy with that decision to this day.

I first joined CAP as a cadet in December 1977, and had there not been a 17-year break in membership between 1988 and 2005 I would have had well over 30 years service as both a cadet and senior member. The squadron I was in as a senior member from 1986 through 1988 was operating very much as a GOBFC; not having the CAP 'universal management badge' - ahem - pilot wings pretty much put me on the outside looking in within the squadron. Eventually, other interests (mainly competition model rocketry) took over and I let my membership lapse.

My current job out here in Kwajalein has pretty much put the brakes on my active participation in CAP, and current regulations effectively prohibit the formation of an overseas cadet squadron on the rock. I still pay my dues, even though I'm pretty much relegated to the role of a patron member, but I've put in too much time in advancing through the ranks to just simply go into the 'suspended animation' of patron status. (I'm applying to attend NSC this October, and barring any other requirements I hope to complete Level V and earn the Gill Robb Wilson award.)

I've got a little over three more years before I reach the terminal grade of Lt Col (July 2014 at the earliest - I'll never see 'chicken colonel' in my lifetime). I'm getting close to the end of my initial two-year employment contract here on Kwajalein and barring any major problems employment-wise I will probably be offered a contract extension, which I will take. When I get tired of island life and return to the Land of the Big BX I will more than likely become active again.

Well, since this finally applies to me, and I've stayed away from CAPTalk for some time, I guess I'll say hello and expand.

Many things contributed to me allowing my membership to expire and just simply not re-enter the credit card info for another year. The impending birth of my son, getting ready to move (again), preparing and entering paramedic school, and a few others all contributed it.

But in all honesty, the biggest thing that pushed me away was the constant lack of professionalism and teamwork from a large percentage of our membership. I recall multiple instances where I was instructed to do something, and told to do it in such a way that made the overall accomplishment of the goal darn near impossible.

More than anything else, as someone who works professionally in the emergency services field (EMS), with volunteers from fire departments, rescue squads, and everything else, I saw so much more professionalism from those organizations than I did in my own.  Many of these local crews have a lot less toys and a WHOLE lot less manpower and funding, and I just couldn't understand why these little county rescue squads could get their ducks in a row, why we as CAP, a very large, very well supported, very well equipped organization continues to have so many....well...ridiculous and asinine issues.

Will I return someday? I really do hope so. Maybe once school is done, my son is a little older and can enjoy some of the things CAP gave me as a cadet, and we're onto another set of uniform manuals to argue about, I'll find my way back. But for now, it's probably best to just watch from the sidelines.

Quote from: SJFedor on August 17, 2011, 02:20:33 PMMore than anything else, as someone who works professionally in the emergency services field (EMS), with volunteers from fire departments, rescue squads, and everything else, I saw so much more professionalism from those organizations than I did in my own.  Many of these local crews have a lot less toys and a WHOLE lot less manpower and funding, and I just couldn't understand why these little county rescue squads could get their ducks in a row, why we as CAP, a very large, very well supported, very well equipped organization continues to have so many....well...ridiculous and asinine issues.

Standards, expectations, and ramifications (or lack thereof in equal quantities).

That should be CAP's new motto SERiE

Standards
Expectations
Ramifications
in
Equal Quantities

Until we have that, we will continue on our current path, leaving a lot of good people behind.

"SERiE^®" is a registered trademark of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium.  All Rights Reserved.
Let eClipseco service all of your rhetoric and propaganda needs!

Quote from: Eclipse on August 17, 2011, 02:38:11 PM

Quote from: SJFedor on August 17, 2011, 02:20:33 PMMore than anything else, as someone who works professionally in the emergency services field (EMS), with volunteers from fire departments, rescue squads, and everything else, I saw so much more professionalism from those organizations than I did in my own.  Many of these local crews have a lot less toys and a WHOLE lot less manpower and funding, and I just couldn't understand why these little county rescue squads could get their ducks in a row, why we as CAP, a very large, very well supported, very well equipped organization continues to have so many....well...ridiculous and asinine issues.

Standards, expectations, and ramifications (or lack thereof in equal quantities).

That should be CAP's new motto SERiE

Standards
Expectations
Ramifications
in
Equal Quantities

Until we have that, we will continue on our current path, leaving a lot of good people behind.

"SERiE^®" is a registered trademark of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium.  All Rights Reserved.
Let eClipseco service all of your rhetoric and propaganda needs!

Agreed.

There were a few things that led to me leaving, most of it was politics and I was not allowed to capitalize on benefits that I had earned.  I took a leave of absence and let my membership lapse.  I have though t about rejoining but some of what I have seen idk if I'm going to be that quick to jump on it. 

I look at this thread every time someone posts and it makes me think about my membership.

Ironically, I ran into the new squadron CC of my local squadron who asked me to get back involved. Once again, I thought about it. I just can't bring myself to do it.

Cadets are different, I'm different, CAP is different and senior members are different.  While I may take re-joining into consideration, I think all the safety online requirements and hoops to jump through just keep me at away. If I could show up and just play, I'd probably do it. Safety this and safety that, whining senior member here and there, along with the cry baby cadet who complains about not testing every week so he can promote every 2 months for that college aplication.  Then, there's the geeky over weight senior member who keeps telling me how I can't do "that".

what's left to enjoy?

My best experiences in CAP spanned from 1987 to 1991 (cadet years) and then 1996 to 2003. Since then its been filled with frustration.

I know how you feel...

I was very optimistic for us being able to deal with many of our issues that cause CAP to BLEED members.  Now I'm not so sure that the National Board wants to make the changes in the infrastructure, requirements, missions, and burdens necessary to make the bleeding stop. 

I don't think much has changed for the general membership in 10+ years.  For those who keep their head down and are happy with unit participation or their niche activity, it is what it's always been.

But for those of us who what CAP to fulfill its promise and be what it should and can be, the frustration has been increasing, because the focus has not been where it needs to be.

If nothing else, the board made it clear today that the SQ is how they like it.

I fear that means "former members" will still be a topic and the bleeding will continue.

I don't think it's radical or crazy to ask for the sort of changes we are asking for.  They don't put the National Board out of business (involve it more, even), and if these people implement these things, they LOOK GREAT for addressing challenges and doing things that make people want to stay.  The organization grows rapidly, it recruits and retains, and they look like wonderful leaders.

Or they don't stay up with the times and make changes, the organization bleeds, the members have contempt for their leaders, and the members quit, posting angry and/or depressing things on the internet and threads like "former members." 

Their choice...  Only they can make the difference.

JC004.
a page and a half in two days of reasons experienced members are dropping out of the program. That says something in itself. Until such time as the BoG's Governence Report comes out I still see the bleeding of the membership. There are quite a few of former members that would love to get back in the CAP they love, but the politics of the Corporate structure and Wing back stabbing is the cause of them staying out. From General Carr's statements at todays Board, it appears the status quo will remain, and lower membership numbers can be expected.

Same stuff I've heard again and again and again and again.

Same stuff that is in exit survey after exit survey after exit survey - of the surveys done by NHQ.

It's very, very sad.  It has to be fixed in a positive way and I was hoping this National Board meeting would begin that shift.  There is a lot that can be done and it's not insane, ridiculous, or radical (other than being radically different in some respects).

And as I catch up on all the happenings over the past 6-8 months since I stopped watching what happened w/ CAP, i'm sad to say i'm only getting happier and happier that I chose to walk away. There's still many things I'd like to do and give back to CAP, but this isn't the CAP I signed on for.

Quote from: SJFedor on August 19, 2011, 01:27:24 AM
And as I catch up on all the happenings over the past 6-8 months since I stopped watching what happened w/ CAP, i'm sad to say i'm only getting happier and happier that I chose to walk away. There's still many things I'd like to do and give back to CAP, but this isn't the CAP I signed on for.

You're a paramedic student, you don't have time for a social life!

Quote from: JThemann on August 19, 2011, 01:39:03 AM

Quote from: SJFedor on August 19, 2011, 01:27:24 AM
And as I catch up on all the happenings over the past 6-8 months since I stopped watching what happened w/ CAP, i'm sad to say i'm only getting happier and happier that I chose to walk away. There's still many things I'd like to do and give back to CAP, but this isn't the CAP I signed on for.

You're a paramedic student, you don't have time for a social life!

Agreed. Clinicals start in a week n a half. Goodbye life, see you next June.

Quote from: SJFedor on August 19, 2011, 01:41:47 AM

Quote from: JThemann on August 19, 2011, 01:39:03 AM

Quote from: SJFedor on August 19, 2011, 01:27:24 AM
And as I catch up on all the happenings over the past 6-8 months since I stopped watching what happened w/ CAP, i'm sad to say i'm only getting happier and happier that I chose to walk away. There's still many things I'd like to do and give back to CAP, but this isn't the CAP I signed on for.

You're a paramedic student, you don't have time for a social life!

Agreed. Clinicals start in a week n a half. Goodbye life, see you next June.

Off topic, but shoot me an email if there's anything I can do for you.

I am a returning former member who rejoined after a 10 year absence. I have served only in composite squadrons (three different states); I have no staff experience at higher echelons.

My first "enlistment" in CAP (in a composite squadron in the late 90s) was unpleasant. I left within one year because of poor and egocentric leadership, overtasking of a few dedicated SMs, and political infighting. I never intended to return to CAP because of that experience.

A dozen years later I decided to try out CAP again. I tried to find out as much about the local squadron in advance, and closely observed the leadership and squadron activities before joining. Since returning to CAP in 2009, my experience at the squadron level has been extremely favorable.  I've served in two squadrons in different states since returning. I felt at home in both squadrons. I received support, guidance, and recognition from the leadership, staff, and rank-and-file. Unlike my first experience in CAP, my current and immediate past squadron have great leadership, a core of dedicated SMs, and the absence of toxic personalities. Whatever frustrations and disappointments I've experienced are mostly the result of limited resources and time (or "outside forces"), which most volunteer organizations face.

Quote from: Parsifal on August 21, 2011, 07:55:30 PMA dozen years later I decided to try out CAP again

Thank you for giving it a try again. Yes, the politics are thick in this organization, sometimes it seeps down into the squadron level, most of the time the units can function around it, and still provide for a program to be of service to the surrounding community, state and nation.

Sooner, more than later, those politicians manage to expose themselves and can't get out of the way of the bus.

Kirt, CAP-RAP as an additional duty assignment is an option for you as well.  It would allow you to bring into play your wide variety of military experience and connections to support CAP programs basically allowing you to "play".  I was  on the verge of ending my CAP involvement as well; work, kids, military commitments and a general disenchantment with the program.  I have found it to be rewarding in the way much of my earlier years of CAP were without having near the voulme of head banging moments, the down side is you are an advisor rather than a policy maker; which still means sometimes you have to stand there and wonder WTF? 
mk

Some amount of corruption and needing to commit to marching band.

FWIW I sort of renewed today.  My membership expired in December 2010 and I did not renew.  Although I easily could have, I chose not to.  Today, I learned that because I was activated as a National Guardsman for Operation Enduring Freedom, my membership was held and will be extended 90 days following my return.  Although I returned late July, my military orders ended 24 August, so I sent them in and have been extended through November.  At which time I'll reevaluate renewing my membership.

I have been in Patron status for the last year anyway in a wing I don't live in.  Who knows what will happen, but I'm fairly certain I won't be active.

 :(

I was a cadet from 2002-2009 when I turned 21. I transferred to SM. However my "active" participation in CAP ended about mid 2008 right after my last encampment as a cadet. I just had so many things going on between the reserves, college and my other two jobs. Since then I have only been to one encampment (2011 OHWG) and a handful of meetings

I was asked to serve as a "TAC" officer at the most recent OHWG Encampment. Being a two year break from CAP, I found that I was a shell of my former self in terms of CAP knowledge, however had gained more life experience. While almost all of my interactions with the SM's were pleasant, I was still treated as a cadet by some probably due to my age as well as an outsider. (Some of these SM's were not even members when I transferred to SM...)

I found the SM side of things to be rewarding in terms of helping to provide cadets with the same experiences I had, although something just seemed different. A lot of my friends from my cadet days had moved on, however a few people were still around. Also CAP changed. I don't know what it was, but it was just different. The things I was really interested in as a cadet I didn't care about anymore. (like having mirror shined boots, D&C and so on) But I guess that comes with the territory of being a SM. It was really unique to see how encampment worked from a SM side of things. As cadet staff, I always thought it was really only about the basics, with some emphasis on training future cadet leaders. As a SM, I observed  that it seemed to be a learning environment for the cadets, but especially the cadet staff. At the OHWG encampments, the seniors are really hands off and let the cadets run the show. Being a former cadet, it was hard for me to keep my mouth shut. I only answered questions when asked.

I have let my membership lapse this year for the first time ever, but renewed it at the last moment. I will probably not be renewing next year, or if I do, transfer to patron status. This will mainly be due to a reserve commitment taking up most of the year and part of next year.

My future CAP involvement (if any) will be primary focused on cadet programs and encampment. I originally joined CAP to do ES, but never progressed past GES and only went to one SAREX. I found ES to not be "my thing." However, being in the "ghost" squadron in my wing having to send the wing CC an email for permission to go to encampment as SM staff  as well as the new safety thing is some extra loops that make it harder for me to participate.


So in the end, if CAP will have me as a limited participant, I'll stay and help out when I can, but sometimes I think twice before I punch that credit card number in. If CAP changes too much, then I will leave. I never really got into the upper level politics of the SM side of things, and plan to stay away from that.

Mark Harding
C/Capt, (retired)
1st Lt, CAP

Quote from: Stonewall on August 30, 2011, 01:29:34 AM
FWIW I sort of renewed today.  My membership expired in December 2010 and I did not renew.  Although I easily could have, I chose not to.  Today, I learned that because I was activated as a National Guardsman for Operation Enduring Freedom, my membership was held and will be extended 90 days following my return.  Although I returned late July, my military orders ended 24 August, so I sent them in and have been extended through November.  At which time I'll reevaluate renewing my membership.

I have been in Patron status for the last year anyway in a wing I don't live in.  Who knows what will happen, but I'm fairly certain I won't be active.

I know someone who can fix that for you... ;D

Quote from: Al Sayre on August 30, 2011, 12:11:56 PM
I know someone who can fix that for you... ;D

I bet you do... I spoke to the local CC who has asked for my assistance and I am very reluctant to commit to anything as I have done 3 times in the past 5 years and always walked away after a few meetings.  I just wasn't pleased with the leadership or management of the squadron.  My problem or theirs is irrelevant, I just wasn't happy.  I did suggest that if (and that is a big IF) I do renew my membership, I may be willing to help out with one or two activities a year.  Or, maybe help out when they need a 2nd senior member to make an activity happen.

I also like the option of being able to help out with Cadet Survival School (http://www.cadetsurvivalschool.org) in the future.  CSS is the best activity a cadet can EVER attend.  And I can't help out if I'm not a member.  We'll see.

I got all excited for a second, Stonewall, because I thought I saw the word "Ohio" in there somewhere (which is my state).

Regardless, this cadet will attend CSS if you renew. That's got to be enough reason, right, sir?

Quote from: Stonewall on August 30, 2011, 01:29:34 AM
FWIW I sort of renewed today.  My membership expired in December 2010 and I did not renew.  Although I easily could have, I chose not to.  Today, I learned that because I was activated as a National Guardsman for Operation Enduring Freedom, my membership was held and will be extended 90 days following my return.  Although I returned late July, my military orders ended 24 August, so I sent them in and have been extended through November.  At which time I'll reevaluate renewing my membership.

I got this today by email, thought it was nice.

Quote from: CAP NHQ MembershipYour membership has now been extended to 30 Nov 11 free of charge in honor of your service.  You may renew at any time through e-services at www.capnhq.gov, by calling 877-227-9142 or mailing a $62.00 payment to the address below my name.  Thank you.

I drive airplanes; It started feeling like CAP was wasting a LOT of my time with some fairly low-value "just-for-show" saftey and other requirments. It looked like CAP was ignoring the essential and exalting the trivial, at least some of the time, anyway.

And it became a very time consuming effort to fly even the simplest mission (C17), as WMIRS was (is?) a mess to use, eServcies is worse, and the flight release procedures became more and more klunky. Basically, CAP tends to drive away pilots, at least ones that aren't retired, or have families. My impression was we (mission pilots) were a dime-a-dozen, and not a very high-priority resource for National to worry about.

I flew military, and still fly in a military aero-club, so I know stop-stumble-and-fall bureaucracy when I see it.  CAP ate a lot of time for stuff that didn't improve skills or provide effective training.

But, I didn't let my membership expire; I just stopped participating. I will likely get CAP re-current again, but probably not participate much in non-flying activities. Not sure if I'll press real hard to get MP currrent real soon, either. I intend to test the water, see if the hassles have been streamlined, and if CAP has a clearer, more focused vision of its mission.

The Coast Guard Auxiliary have their antennae out for former and "prospective former" CAP members as well as for the rest of the general public . Their flyers were certainly doing a brisk trade at the AOPA Convention last week. 

Mission-wise, the Aux has an advantage - they are an integral part of the USCG, and they have been directed (and therefore, funded) to fly regular (and long) patrol routes.  A significant portion of CAP's operational raison d'etre - namely, 121.5 searches - has disappeared with the shift to the new frequency and AFRCC's cessation of monitoring the old frequency. 

I won't open the ARCHER can too widely, but when I think of how many 172s and 182s CAP could have bought for that $15,000,000...  sigh

I've had a couple "breaks in service."

Usually it was because of irreconcilable differences, usually between me and the GOB network so prevalent in parts of CAP, in no small part because I took a stand and would not bend over and say "thank you sir may I have another," to "go along to get along" when something was clearly against regs.  I am not very good at that; I never have been.

WRT the USCGAux...I spent some time with them, too, and came to respect them.  However, with them I often got the feeling that there was a two-tier level of membership: those who had a boat, and those who didn't (I don't.).

Nonetheless, I greatly envy the fact that they are much more integrated with the CG than CAP is with the AF, that the CG respects them (unlike so many in the AF who unforgivably don't even know who we are) and that there isn't the element within the CGAUX that tries to distance itself from its parent service the way CAP does.

Quotewas a two-tier level of membership: those who had a boat, and those who didn't (I don't.).

Within the AuxAir program that division is even worse. There are pilots and everyone else. I used to fly as an Air Observer and then Air Crew. It was not unusual for a pilot to be awarded a medal or ribbon for a mission and the rest of the crew got NADA.

If you follow the main Aux boards you will notice the same division between the upper-tier leadership and the 'bottom dwellers' that sometimes crops up here.

Quotethere isn't the element within the CGAUX that tries to distance itself from its parent service the way CAP does

You don't have to spend  much time on the Aux boards to find that isn't true. That divide comes about between several groups. There are those who feel that the alleged closeness to the USCG (and the uniforms etc) interferes with the Aux's prime and original mission RBS (Recreational Boating Safety). Another divide is between those who augment with the USCG and those who do not. The USCG is usually pretty good about making sure its Auxies are taken care of award-wise. The local unit are not so good about that. So it causes a maldistribution and resentment between the Auxie Augies and the have-nots.

You have to remember that very few Aux flotillas are near CG units and very few members within that unit augment. So overall, the number of Auxies who enjoy the alleged 'closeness' to the USCG is very small.

^^^I suppose what I meant about the "distancing from parent service" is the increasingly corporatist element within CAP who would like us to have nothing to do with the Air Force, not wear the Air Force uniform and be ES, the whole ES, and nothing but ES.

I didn't encounter that in the CGAUX...and I was landlocked in the middle of the Midwest, with the only CG facility being a now-closed LORAN station about 50 miles away.

I never augmented for the CG and (disappointingly) got nowhere near the AuxAir side.

What I was getting at was that when I would meet someone from the gold side, they were usually very appreciative and thanked me for what I did with the Auxiliary.

With CAP it's too often an attitude of barely-benign indifference from our parent service to sometimes downright hostility: "oh, there's one of those CAP wannabes who is going to try to get me to salute them."

During one of my breaks in service I worked with a retired AF officer who was considering getting into CAP.  I told him some of what was going on at that time; the whole AUXON/OFF Bravo Sierra, etc.  Interestingly, what really got him was the uniform issues, particularly the shoulder marks: "I used to see you guys on bases all over with the blue epaulettes and had no trouble recognising you...I don't understand why they made you change."

I suspect that sort of treatment by our parent service contributes to disgruntled former members, especially those who were in the Air Force.

Quote from: RRLE on September 27, 2011, 12:08:34 PM
You have to remember that very few Aux flotillas are near CG units and very few members within that unit augment. So overall, the number of Auxies who enjoy the alleged 'closeness' to the USCG is very small.

While duties may generally put CGAux people nearer to the CG, I'd hazard a guess that the overall relationship and contact hours with the military are as much or more in CAP than in the CGAux, there's still a whole lot of units and activities which are located on active bases.

Also, unless you are near a body of water that has recreational boating, your opportunities for service are going to be somewhat "limited" - how big does the body need to be?  Lake Michigan has exactly 1 CG unit and exactly 1 boat for the Chicago shoreline, and that is only manned from May - Oct.   The nearest helicopter is in Waukegan, and after that you have to go to Milwaukee to find a CG unit.  There are CGAuxers active out there, checking boats and the intake cribs, etc., but NE-ILL is somewhat unique for all the lakes we have, and they don't exactly have a significant presence off the lake front.

CGAuxers also fly their own aircraft, which from my conversations with dual/former/perspective members was a no-go for many, either from an ORM, insurance, or "don't got one" standpoint.  Think things are bad from a GOB standpoint in CAP?  That's manageable with a phone call.  Imagine what it would be like if the only flying yo could do was in a personally owned airplane.

QuoteCGAuxers also fly their own aircraft, which from my conversations with dual/former/perspective members was a no-go for many, either from an ORM, insurance, or "don't got one" standpoint

AuxAir took a big hit in its plane numbers about two years ago. Prior to that, Auxie owned aircraft had to meet whatever FAA standards applied to recreational  GA aircraft. Then an Auxie plane had an engine fire in-flight with an admiral aboard. The fire was controlled and noone was injured. But the knees jerked. Auxie aircraft suddenly had to meet the FAA overhaul and insprection requirements for commercial aircraft - with no added funding for the increased maintenance from the USCG. Many left the program since they were already outside the commercial time frames but still comfortably within the recreational ones. Others left as they approached the limits.

It gets more complicated. Around the same time as the above, the USCG got picky about what aircraft it would accept in the program. Some areas mostly performed shore-line patrol patterns. Dual engine aircraft had a hard time being accepted since they cost more to operate and the extra engine wasn't needed for the patrol type. Other areas perform deep ocean patrols and single-engine plans aren't wanted since dual engines are required if the plane is more then gliding distance from a shore. It is the USCG who is setting those requirements. So depending on the area a pilot was in, he might have suddenly found his plane was no longer wanted.