Scanners, DF'ers and Vehicle Magmount Antennas

[afgeo4]

So my group doesn't have any ES equipment of its own (the members all have personal equipment) and the CC has finally had it with that.  I've been tasked with finding 2 to 4 DF units and 2 vehicle antennas I could hook them up to.  I'm new at this stuff.  Could you guys help me out with finding the right stuff for the job?

I know people use the Radio Shack scanners, but which ones?  Which antennas to go with them?  Is there anything better?  What freqs should they be programmed for?  Is it worth it to find something that'll scan 406.00 MHz or just stick to 121.50, 121.75, and 243.00?

Please help!

[Eclipse]

You should speak to your local comm officer(s) or other qual'ed ES types.

Hand-held scanners are ok for intial signal aquisition, but won't DF in a car
(and don't DF well on foot, either).

A new L-Per goes about $1000.00 for a hand-carried one, I can't imagine what a vehicle mounted one like a Becker would cost.

[Matt]

Last Figure I heard was $750 for the NEW Little-Lper which isn't too bad... Played with one last weekend at a ground school.  Basically AB Radio with set channels.

Roof Antennas, I believe are $125 per set.


http://ltronics.com would be the place to check for new equip.

I'd recommend staying with AB for the time being.  If you have been allotted enough money, well more is always better (in this case) and go for the 406!

[Eclipse]

OK, I'll go with $750 - based on the quantity above, that's still a lot of coin for a unit that doesn't even have ONE today.

What do you need more than one for?  My unit is as active as any in the area 2-3 ELT's a month, and we get by fine with one. In ILWG, most units have one E-Pler and
based on the distribution of ES qual'ed people, its generally not an issue to have enough gear on a mission.

You also need to factor in that in 2010(?) the ELT landscape will change, and what we will be doing from there is still in question.  So again, that's a lot of cash to spend amoritzed over only 2-3 years.

[Slim]

Here's my take on scanners and air band radios.

I use them very successfully for close-in work.  I've narrowed the location down to a certain area (say 3-4 different garages or a general area), then start jumping the frequency up/down on the scanner.  The farther off frequency you are and still receive a signal, the closer to the unit you are.  Body shielding will give you a general direction, but they are pretty much useless for long-distance DFing. 

Having a DF unit that will track/receive 406 MHz won't really be a help.  The tansmission on that frequency will be a very short databurst containing registration data on the ELT/EPIRB (owner name/address, tail/hull number, description and GPS coordinates).  These units will also transmit a traditional, low-power signal on 121.5 and/or 243.0 for DF purposes.  In other words, there will still be a need for these skills and this equipment. 

What the 406 ELTs and EPIRBs do is give us better coordinates on the first reception, and won't make us wait for two-three SARSAT passes before we have a good triangulated area to focus on.  We'll also have much better data on what we're looking for, and who.

[Al Sayre]

I know this is an old thread but...

There's an L-Per on Ebay right now, current bid is $72.00, reserve not met.  The unit is in Hawaii and buyer pays shipping...  Personally, I have to wonder where these units on Ebay come from...

[SarDragon]

Pros - has the roof antennas; has all three air band crystals

Cons - has a reserve price, bidding could get ugly; it's the old model receiver, no 243 MHz capability

I'm guessing it will go for well over $300.

[floridacyclist]

Why not use a doppler kit?

I have the Picodopp - http://www.silcom.com/~pelican2/PicoDopp/PICODOPP.htm

While I have yet to finish mine  as I have too many other things going on, everyone that has loves it. They also have a forum (that I kind of run) at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/picodopp

Pluses - cheap, adaptable to different frequencies, uses a laptop that many of us already bring on missions for navigation, can actually overlay the bearing plot on a local map with the right software

Minuses - requires the ability to solder without causing oneself pain and trauma.

[IceNine]

as mentioned before the new elper units by L-tronics are 750 (we just ordered one a couple months ago)  be careful however if you want the antennas from them because they have discriminator circuits built into the base and if you try and DF and broadcast even low power on cap radios you will fry them (unless you are driving a school bus) because the antennas must be 15 ft or more away from your other antennas.  there is also a slightly cheaper unit out there that the wings are getting in.  it is not quite as user friendly as the L-tronics version but does the job fine, this unit is build by Profind and has worked for a lot of people just fine.  I also recommend a handheld airband radio of some sort because when you get close with the elper say on an airport with several on a ramp it can be difficult to to adjust the elper to discriminate against all the reflection.  the way to fight that is to take the antenna off of a airband radio, and de-tune it as you get closer.  The suggestion that I use is depending on how many Team members/leaders you have I split my unit into individual teams and send them all out with the equipment needed.  Good luck!

[afgeo4]

as mentioned before the new elper units by L-tronics are 750 (we just ordered one a couple months ago)  be careful however if you want the antennas from them because they have discriminator circuits built into the base and if you try and DF and broadcast even low power on cap radios you will fry them (unless you are driving a school bus) because the antennas must be 15 ft or more away from your other antennas.  there is also a slightly cheaper unit out there that the wings are getting in.  it is not quite as user friendly as the L-tronics version but does the job fine *the name is slipping my mind I'll get back to you on that one.  I also recommend a handheld airband radio of some sort because when you get close with the elper say on an airport with several on a ramp it can be difficult to to adjust the elper to discriminate against all the reflection.  the way to fight that is to take the antenna off of a airband radio, and de-tune it as you get closer.  The suggestion that I use is depending on how many Team members/leaders you have I split my unit into individual teams and send them all out with the equipment needed.  Good luck!

That's exactly what I'm looking for. Have you found out what antenna to use with a new L-Per that wont fry?

[IceNine]

You can use any other airband antenna you want, the major drawback you are going to get is that you will lose your directional capability, BUT you can still get close enough to hop out of the truck and do it the "old fashioned" way.

[RADIOMAN015]

As a newbee in training, I've got some radio scanners both base/mobile & portable (e.g. BC296D) that have signal strength indicators,   I would think that perhaps a small beam antenna or I'm going to try experimenting with some aluminum foil fashion some way.   For a quick mobile antenna, try the ProComm CD144MBN.  See: http://www.grove-ent.com/procomm.html    What is good about using a portable scanner is that virtually any frequency can be DF'd, and with the advent of lots of Family Radio Service (FRS) units, with 462.5625 mhz being the quasi calling/emergency channel you will have the capability.  Also it's easy to practice, since you can use an airport's ATIS or for that matter get someone else with an FRS radio to just give some test counts...  I'd be interesting in seeing some postings IF anyone else has experimented with this.   Looking for a very cost effective method of performing the mission versus the $700-1100 for DF gear.
K

[IceNine]

My unit has one both a new and old school ltronics lpers.  But I usually leave those to the less experienced team leaders and I use my airband radio.  Reason being the Lpers will walk you directly to the signal with the most basic training.  Turn it on step on the ball so to speak. 

I personally use my airband radio and fiddle with the squelch, volume, and offset the channels.  If you have a signal meter you are even better off.  So if you know how to DF with the minimal equipment the rest is easy.

-side note:  that is how I train my newbies, just as when newbies learn GT they get a compass before they can play with GPS.

[O-Rex]

Radio Shack has a 'PRO-82 Handheld Scanner' for $100, which seems to meet the specs...

Better/cheaper/faster alternatives?

[IceNine]

I would be very weary of buying anything from radioshack these days.  There equipment does not have the quality that we used to enjoy. And you will most likely have numerous problems with a unit from them

[O-Rex]

I would be very weary of buying anything from radioshack these days.  There equipment does not have the quality that we used to enjoy. And you will most likely have numerous problems with a unit from them

Alternatives?

I'd like to find one of those little Vertex numbers on ebay (WITH 121.5) I heard that non-compliant radios are going for peanuts, but would still work as a 'scanner.'

[Hartley]

Hi Y'all,

  If you're a GTL/GTM looking at a receiver for 121.5, why not take a look at one of the airband handhelds?  They're getting quite a bit cheaper these days (and older units are even cheaper on eBay) - they cover the entire airband and can also serve as a backup comm unit to the aircraft in the event the FM radio doesn't work (or you're dealing with a private/non-CAP aircraft).  You might even be able to get one from one of your pilots if he is lusting after a newer one and wants to sell his old one..

73 DE Hartley

[SarDragon]

Just a reminder - folks looking to use these receivers as part of a DF unit (the Ramsey stuff comes to mind, but others are avaialble) need to keep in mind that those units require an FM receiver, not AM. I use my IC-Q7 in FM mode with my Ramsey unit.