Emergency Vehicle Lights

[jb512]

NJ will allow a ground team leader a blue light permit, just gives you the "right of way" just like the volunteer fire and ems. Police fire and EMS not even allowed to speed or run red lights have an accident blowing through a red light and you can get a ticket, but have to get to the emergency,  catch 22 huh

Police, Fire, and EMS can't drive over the limit or go through red lights?  I find that kinda hard to believe.

We have statutes here in Texas that give police a very broad scope to the point where we are exempt from almost all traffic law with or without lights activated and are held only to a standard of due care.  I'm not quite sure I could catch a speeder without exceeding the speed limit myself.  And late at night red lights become pretty much non-existent when we get a call.

[isuhawkeye]

Unless I am mistaken he is referring to volunteers running blue lights. 

Many states have laws on the books allowing volunteer emergency responders to run what are called "courtesy lights".  Even though they are blue they come with no legal authority.  they are simply a way to ask other motorists to yield the right of way.

[PHall]

Well, speaking as someone who made a few "Code 3" runs with Lights and Siren I can tell you that lights don't make people move, neither does a siren. But a good loud air horn works just about every time!

Why do you think fire trucks have air horns?

[jimmydeanno]

Why do you think fire trucks have air horns?

Because they have air brakes?

[Pylon]

What's the purpose of this discussion again?

IMO, CAP vehicles and CAP members don't need any lighting other than perhaps yellow lights to alert others of a stopped/parked CAP-owned vehicle during certain situations (UDF parked on the side of a road getting a bearing, on the active flightline, etc.)

All IMO, All CAP vehicles should come purchased with a good high-vis amber lightbar or amber arrowstick on the back for safety/visibility purposes.  (It's a heck of a lot better of an investment in vehicle safety than a roof triangle, or changing our door decals for a fifth time).  If there are states that prohibit it, CAP should just not send them to those states.   Situation solved - everybody gets the same amber lightbar, no whackers, no opportunity for some people to trick out their vans with amber headlight flashers, grill lights, visor lights, etc., and safety is improved for everyone. 

[PHall]

What's the purpose of this discussion again?

IMO, CAP vehicles and CAP members don't need any lighting other than perhaps yellow lights to alert others of a stopped/parked CAP-owned vehicle during certain situations (UDF parked on the side of a road getting a bearing, on the active flightline, etc.)

All IMO, All CAP vehicles should come purchased with a good high-vis amber lightbar or amber arrowstick on the back for safety/visibility purposes.  (It's a heck of a lot better of an investment in vehicle safety than a roof triangle, or changing our door decals for a fifth time).  If there are states that prohibit it, CAP should just not send them to those states.   Situation solved - everybody gets the same amber lightbar, no whackers, no opportunity for some people to trick out their vans with amber headlight flashers, grill lights, visor lights, etc., and safety is improved for everyone. 

Why does a 15 passenger van need a light bar?  The van was brought to transport people.

Units that try to use a van as their "Rescue Ranger Assult Vehicle" and use them for ground team stuff are, IMHO, guilty of vehicle abuse and should have the vehicle taken away.

If a unit wants a "Ground Team" vehicle, then they should request one. Too bad the Air Force is only buying vans.

[IceNine]

^  Hey really great solution.  Request something that you can't get, but don't use what you have?!?!

Letting a vehicle sit that is capable of performing the mission because it is "too big" is abuse of a vehicle.  Last I checked the Air force and more importantly CAP are not concerned with our vehicle being used to accomplish our mission.  They are concerned with our vehicles not being used

[jimmydeanno]

So what would you consider to be a "ground team vehicle?"  A pick-up truck with 2 seats?  A Bronco with 4?  Seems that a van would be perfect for transporting a TEAM of people where they need to go.

I think I'll go buy a 1992 ford escort wagon, that can seat 6 and has cargo room.

[PhoenixRisen]

What's the purpose of this discussion again?

IMO, CAP vehicles and CAP members don't need any lighting other than perhaps yellow lights to alert others of a stopped/parked CAP-owned vehicle during certain situations (UDF parked on the side of a road getting a bearing, on the active flightline, etc.)

To ask a specific question regarding why a specific kind of light is required, and another (which is nearly the same) is prohibited.  A simple question.  Not to start a discussion of whether or not CAP should have them or not.  We already do.

[PhoenixRisen]

So what would you consider to be a "ground team vehicle?"  A pick-up truck with 2 seats?  A Bronco with 4?  Seems that a van would be perfect for transporting a TEAM of people where they need to go.

I think I'll go buy a 1992 ford escort wagon, that can seat 6 and has cargo room.

I recall seeing someone post on here a while back something regarding your average 12/15 passenger van with 4x4 capability.  I can't find the link to the specific site or thread, but it was similar to this:

http://www.factory4x4vans.com/4x4_quigley_van_in_the_mud_off_road.htm

[N Harmon]

So what would you consider to be a "ground team vehicle?"

All joking aside, the 4x4 van that PhoenixCadet linked to would be great, except I shudder to think what kind of gas mileage all that extra weight gives you.

Our vans work great for transporting SAR people to where they need to go. And if adding an AMBER lightbar and traffic advisor improves safety....well, gee, it wouldn't be the silliest thing we've ever done to promote safety now would it be?

"Rescue Ranger Assult Vehicle"?  Feh.

[IceNine]

^ That is AWESOME.  What I wouldn't give to have a money tree right now

[jimmydeanno]

Our vans work great for transporting SAR people to where they need to go. And if adding an AMBER lightbar and traffic advisor improves safety....well, gee, it wouldn't be the silliest thing we've ever done to promote safety now would it be?

"Rescue Ranger Assult Vehicle"?  Feh.

That's my point.  The van is a good 'multi-purpose' vehicle.  I think it would be a bad idea for us to have "the van" just to transport cadets on activities, another vehicle designated only for transporting GTs and another for only transporting two people for things like CC call, etc.

The 4X4s become the Wing CCs vehicle and the pickups are used to haul around the disease infested "mission base trailers."

The van(s) work for our purpose and don't do too bad on some of the more remote locations.  But how often do we need to go four-wheeling anyway?

But back to the light discussion - I don't think that it is appropriate for CAP vehicles to be equipped with the same lighting systems that law enforcement uses - people tend to think they're too special.  The only reason we need lights is to act as a hazard warning - like snow plow trucks or the mail man. 

We have a light bar on our van, we turn it on when we are on the side of the road DFing to alert the coming drivers that the van is there and there are people around it.

Why Jersey says that about their lights, couldn't tell you.

[jb512]

Unless I am mistaken he is referring to volunteers running blue lights. 

No, he said exactly: "Police fire and EMS not even allowed to speed or run red lights".

I couldn't see that being the case in any state.

[flyerthom]

Unless I am mistaken he is referring to volunteers running blue lights. 

No, he said exactly: "Police fire and EMS not even allowed to speed or run red lights".

I couldn't see that being the case in any state.

Actually it is. Ambulances must stop and make sure traffic is clear before proceeding.
Speed must be controlled. 

Michael Montecalvo Case. 

Driving hot

http://www.lmnc.org/media/document/1/emgncyvehicledriving.pdf

An Instant to Decide, a Lifetime to Regret

[jb512]

Unless I am mistaken he is referring to volunteers running blue lights. 

No, he said exactly: "Police fire and EMS not even allowed to speed or run red lights".

I couldn't see that being the case in any state.

Actually it is. Ambulances must stop and make sure traffic is clear before proceeding.
Speed must be controlled. 

Michael Montecalvo Case. 

Driving hot

http://www.lmnc.org/media/document/1/emgncyvehicledriving.pdf

An Instant to Decide, a Lifetime to Regret

Nope, it's still not.  They must come to a stop if necessary, then proceed through the red light and they can control their speed in excess of the posted limit when it's safe to do so.  I'll explain...

None of the articles you provided state any form of traffic law regarding emergency vehicle operation.  They are very good opinions and guidelines on how to drive and provide good examples of negligent driving, but nothing there states that ambulances cannot exceed the speed limit, nor do they say an ambulance cannot proceed through a red light when it is safe to do so.  In fact in one part they were talking about 10MPH over the limit being reasonable for an ambulance.

Drivers of emergency vehicles (speaking from Texas law and I'm sure it's similar elsewhere) are exempt from normal traffic laws and are held to a standard called Due Care.  You can run red lights, speed, turn where you need to, etc., but you can only do so when you're reasonably sure that you've been seen.  Almost all standards of law are applied from the viewpoint of what a reasonable person would think is correct.  So you do what you can to make things safe on your end, but if someone else disregards you and make themselves a victim, then that's not your fault.  I tend to disagree with the article you had where the cell phone guy got himself plowed and the EMT was turned into the bad guy.

Police vehicles in Texas have even more exceptions where we are exempt from traffic law with or without lights and siren and the decision is left up to the operator.  The premise being that it's sometimes safer to do what you have to do without red/blue lights on if they will create more of a hazard than not.

So when the op said that police/fire/EMS are not allowed to speed or run red lights, that is not the case.

/thread drift

[John Bryan]

I wish we spent as much time discussing if there is a need for CAP members to take training for the operation of large vehicles...like 12 or 15 passenger vans.

We do NOT use our vehicles as emergency vehicles....if we need anything it is only to show that we are moving slow or on a flight line.....maybe to help an aircrew at 2am determine which vehicle we are if they are trying to lead us.  As it stands now there is no need to use anything other then amber or clear (see 77-1).

Some might believe we need to use our vehicles as emergency vehicles....this MIGHT be worth considering AFTER we consider things like EVOC.  There are private organizations that do this for example ASPCA and the Salvation Army have red lights and sirens, but they also have training and policies ......those would need to come first.

The lack of any real vehicle safety program or training for the operator of our vehicles has be a long time concern of mine and I wish we would start training our drivers. There are courses offered by the NSC and other groups we would not have to invent the wheel.

[flyerthom]

Unless I am mistaken he is referring to volunteers running blue lights. 

No, he said exactly: "Police fire and EMS not even allowed to speed or run red lights".

I couldn't see that being the case in any state.

Actually it is. Ambulances must stop and make sure traffic is clear before proceeding.
Speed must be controlled. 

Michael Montecalvo Case. 

Driving hot

http://www.lmnc.org/media/document/1/emgncyvehicledriving.pdf

An Instant to Decide, a Lifetime to Regret

Nope, it's still not.  They must come to a stop if necessary, then proceed through the red light and they can control their speed in excess of the posted limit when it's safe to do so.  I'll explain...

None of the articles you provided state any form of traffic law regarding emergency vehicle operation.  They are very good opinions and guidelines on how to drive and provide good examples of negligent driving, but nothing there states that ambulances cannot exceed the speed limit, nor do they say an ambulance cannot proceed through a red light when it is safe to do so.  In fact in one part they were talking about 10MPH over the limit being reasonable for an ambulance.

Drivers of emergency vehicles (speaking from Texas law and I'm sure it's similar elsewhere) are exempt from normal traffic laws and are held to a standard called Due Care.  You can run red lights, speed, turn where you need to, etc., but you can only do so when you're reasonably sure that you've been seen.  Almost all standards of law are applied from the viewpoint of what a reasonable person would think is correct.  So you do what you can to make things safe on your end, but if someone else disregards you and make themselves a victim, then that's not your fault.  I tend to disagree with the article you had where the cell phone guy got himself plowed and the EMT was turned into the bad guy.

Police vehicles in Texas have even more exceptions where we are exempt from traffic law with or without lights and siren and the decision is left up to the operator.  The premise being that it's sometimes safer to do what you have to do without red/blue lights on if they will create more of a hazard than not.

So when the op said that police/fire/EMS are not allowed to speed or run red lights, that is not the case.

/thread drift

In both PA and NV where I've worked EMS, the vehicles are required a full stop. They may proceeed afterward. Police vehicles are not held to that standard.

On reason is a major study by Annals of Emergency Medicine showed that full code response saves an average of 43.5 seconds .
http://www.annemergmed.com/article/S0196-0644(95)70267-9/abstract

To bring this back to topic, is 43.5 seconds really necessary in CAP responses? I doubt we need anything besides safety amber.

[lordmonar]

I know that in Arkansas, where I grew up, that EMS vehicles could not run red lights...and volunteer firemen could not run red lights.  I know this  because I was a member of a Rural VFD and we got the "don't speed, don't run red lights" safety briefing every week.  Also there was a big fracas where an EMT driver who was responding to an automobile accident (he was the only unit with a "Jaws of life") got stopped for running a red light.  The victim in the car died and the EMT driver drove his rig into the center of a busy intersection, turned on his lights, sirens, opened all the doors and walked away in protest.

For the sake of argument.  I think it would be a good idea to have yellow flashing caution lights.  This will at least help if you are on a slow ELT search or parked on the side of the road getting a LOB.  But in no way shape or form should this be thought of a license to speed or run red lights.

[PhoenixRisen]

I know that in Arkansas, where I grew up, that EMS vehicles could not run red lights...and volunteer firemen could not run red lights.  I know this  because I was a member of a Rural VFD and we got the "don't speed, don't run red lights" safety briefing every week.  Also there was a big fracas where an EMT driver who was responding to an automobile accident (he was the only unit with a "Jaws of life") got stopped for running a red light.  The victim in the car died and the EMT driver drove his rig into the center of a busy intersection, turned on his lights, sirens, opened all the doors and walked away in protest.

This is something I've never understood...  You're an EMT, who'se purpose is to save lives.  Why would a government prohibit you from running red lights / speeding (if you have the necessary training, of course)?  That just doesn't make sense to me...  Kinda defeats the purpose.

Also the same, IMO, for VFD's.  Especially if you're the sole fire protection unit in your area.  You're purpose is to put out fires.  You need to get there fast.  Why the restrictions?