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Emergency Vehicle Lights

Started by afgeo4, May 29, 2007, 02:30:16 AM

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SJFedor


Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

isuhawkeye

Iowa law states Lights or Sirens,

but if you get in an accident you clearly were not following due reguard, and as such are at fault. 

Flying Pig

capchiro,

Your right, there are many times we as law enforcement use our lights without our sirens.  Often times its in responding to an incident where we really need to get there now, but full Code 3 may not be authorized by policy.
Many Departments have Code 2 which is lights only.  Other times, it may because we are close enough to going on scene that we may want to keep it quiet, but still get people out of the way. As far as it being stupid?  Having 10 years on the job Id have to disagree.

Often times, I do exceed the speed limit.  Do you think its because Im just bored? I had a guy follow me to a call once to lay into me about driving to fast, actually I think its because I passed him on a double yellow.  Little did he know he followed me to a pretty good domestic violence call.  When some officers ran past him with their guns out, he decided to leave.

Slim

#43
Quote from: stillamarine on May 29, 2007, 07:55:00 PM
Quote from: Psicorp on May 29, 2007, 05:28:28 PM
Here in Michigan, regular tow trucks get the flashy red lights.  For some reason, tow trucks get two red lights on a single bar yet Michigan State Police cars only get one big round red light.

When I was in a volunteer fire dept. in Florida, we were allowed a red light in/on POVs, but we couldn't do more than 9 mph over the speed limit, still had to stop at red lights and stop signs, and other vehicles were not required to move over for us. 

Amber just makes more sense. 



MSP has the bubblegum light because of tradition. They just never wanted to change it. I hear this is starting to change now with them getting the new Chargers though.

Technically in the state of Florida a volunteer FF can have a red light if approved in writing by his chief. BUT you still must obey all traffic laws to include speed limits. Granted most LEOs in our area here will let us slide with 5 or 10 mph over but get caught driving like a bat out of hell and your done.

Actually, MSP still uses the Unity beacon because it's the only one to withstand their tests; which require the beacon to stay on the car at speeds up to 160 MPH.   That beacon is bolted to an interior frame support that runs in an X pattern across the roof of the car (be it the current CVPI,  or the older Caprice, Impala, or the old Plymouth Grand Fury).  The reason the new Dodge Chargers don't have the beacon is because there is no support structure in the roof to bolt it to.

Granted, not an official site; but it does back up a lot of what Troopers I know have told me: http://www.geocities.com/my9c1page/msphistory

Oddly enough, the site mentions tradition as the reason for keeping the bubble, but I've seen the speed test cited other places.  Including conversations with people at the MSP motor pool.

According to the MI Vehicle Code, tow trucks aren't supposed to have red lights, either.  However, since most of the wreckers that are so equipped also work under contract with the PD (for impounds, accidents and such), it's mostly ignored.



Slim

SJFedor

Quote from: Flying Pig on May 31, 2007, 04:05:58 AM

I had a guy follow me to a call once to lay into me about driving to fast, actually I think its because I passed him on a double yellow.  Little did he know he followed me to a pretty good domestic violence call.  When some officers ran past him with their guns out, he decided to leave.

Doesn't seem like a smart move, to follow a police officer, regardless of the reason. I've noticed that police officers get pretty paranoid sometimes, and that seems like a quick way to get yourself in some trouble, possibly in line for a beat down.  :)

Not to mention, you're the law enforcement official, not him. You're responsible for enforcing the law, for yourself and others, and knowing when the law may be stepped around for due cause, i.e. responding to a scene.

Personally, even if cops don't have their lights on, if it's more then a 2 lane road, I get myself out of the way, regardless of their rate of speed, and if it's a 2 lane road, I just watch my rear view and see if they seem like they want to get by me, if so, I find a nice driveway to pull into and let 'em go.

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

tribalelder



CAPR77-1, para 10. f.

"Marking of rescue vehicles must conform to federal, state, and local laws. The type of light bar used on vehicles must be approved in writing by the wing commander (region commander if a region vehicle) and must follow the narrowest guidelines established by the resident state and all surrounding states. The colors used on approved light bars will be amber or amber/white. The colors red and blue on light bars or the use of sirens are not authorized for use on any CAP vehicle."

NOTE- it says LIGHT BARS.  It doesn't say something generic like 'rotating beacon, strobe light, other intermittently illuminated light, whether permanently or temporariliy affixed.' When the regulation is specific, it's meant specific; when written generically, it applies broadly.  I got in this discussion over the appropriateness of the wing patch on rainwear (the word in the manual then) vs. the more specific rain coat.

Translation-

1) Light bars require Wing or Region CC approval, and are allowable ONLY in amber or amber/white.

2) CAPR 77-1 is silent on magnetics/temporary mounts except the broad statement 'Marking of rescue vehicles must conform to federal, state, and local laws.' Since your magnetic mount is removeable at the state border, comply with applicable codes.

TUV-

If your legitimately borrowed vehicle from another agency motor pool has noncompliant (for CAP) lights, choices are decline the vehicle or keep lights off.

POV-

Comply with vehicle code of state where operating.  Will home state let you use amber in traffic - or only stopped at roadside ? 
WE ARE HERE ON CAPTALK BECAUSE WE ALL CARE ABOUT THE PROGRAM. We may not always agree and we should not always agree.  One of our strengths as an organization is that we didn't all go to the same school, so we all know how to do something different and differently. 
Since we all care about CAP, its members and our missions, sometimes our discussions will be animated, but they should always civil -- after all, it's in our name.

Flying Pig

Most of the CAP vehicles I have seen in Ca have a single yellow stobe light.

bricktonfire

i New York  alest in the fulton area i seen people pull for Vol. firemen with blue lights

Pylon

Quote from: lilred36781 on May 31, 2007, 03:03:27 PM
i New York  alest in the fulton area i seen people pull for Vol. firemen with blue lights

It's a courtesy.  While the blue lights for volunteer fire fighters in New York don't imply any power or authority, nor do they obligate other motorists to give way, courteous people do pull over and let them pass anyways.  Some day that volunteer fire fighter may be responding to a call for your house, or your friends.

But in NY, there is no force of law behind blue, amber and green warning lights; you only need to yield to red.   
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Stonewall

Nothing like having a bunch of folks running code to a CAP mission without any training, certifications or checking with their insurance company.

CAP Member:  Yes, I'd like to update my insurance becuase I'm in CAP and will be responding to emergencies in my POV (Ford Focus) where I spent $1500 on a full package of lights and sirens.

GEICO:  Hahahahahahahahaaaa.....  Seriously?  Okay, just send us your agency's MOU with the local and state government and a copy of your EVOC certificate.

CAP Member:  Ummmmm.... but I saw on CAPTalk that it's authorized....
Serving since 1987.

floridacyclist

I should send this whole thread to www.hamsexy.com .... they'd get a kick out of it :)
Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org

SARMedTech

Quote from: isuhawkeye on May 31, 2007, 02:55:42 AM
Iowa law states Lights or Sirens,

but if you get in an accident you clearly were not following due reguard, and as such are at fault. 

Actually, if you look at the statistics, more accidents are caused by people failing to yield to emergency vehicles. Just because you are involved in an accident doesnt mean that you were not following due regard and being involved in an MVA in an emergency vehicle certainly doesnt automatically indicate fault on the part of the person driving that emergency vehicle. You  can maintain all the due regard you want, but that doesnt always prevent someone coming through an intersection when you have the right of way and t-boning you.
"Corpsman Up!"

"...The distinct possibility of dying slow, cold and alone...but you also get the chance to save lives, and there is no greater calling in the world than that."

SJFedor

Quote from: SARMedTech on June 06, 2007, 08:58:32 PM
Quote from: isuhawkeye on May 31, 2007, 02:55:42 AM
Iowa law states Lights or Sirens,

but if you get in an accident you clearly were not following due reguard, and as such are at fault. 

Actually, if you look at the statistics, more accidents are caused by people failing to yield to emergency vehicles. Just because you are involved in an accident doesnt mean that you were not following due regard and being involved in an MVA in an emergency vehicle certainly doesnt automatically indicate fault on the part of the person driving that emergency vehicle. You  can maintain all the due regard you want, but that doesnt always prevent someone coming through an intersection when you have the right of way and t-boning you.

Especially when said person who t-boned you is a drunk driver and is attracted to your pretty blinky lights like a moth to a flame.  ;D

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

SKYKING607

In the 90-something SAR missions where I've chased ELTs over the years, I've only had to use my overhead amber light once.  That was on the flight line at LAX one night.  A single "kojak" light (magnetic base w/cig plug)  is fine for me!  I'd rather use the extra $$$ that a light bar would cost to buy commo gear.
CAWG Career Captain

PhoenixRisen

I realize the last post in this thread was over a year ago, but considering it's here and already been discussed, I thought it better to post here than to make an entirely new topic about it.

I was over on a Police forum where I had posted a question I had about something I saw here earlier in the week (Border Patrol car runnin' code 3 on I-15, followed by two unmarked POV's, also running code 3).  While on that forum, I recalled a discussion about CAP POV's having emergency lights, and lo and behold, I found it!

My question is for you New Jersey-ites.  According to your DMV/MVC/etc, you've got a form that allows CAP members to apply for a permit to get a blue light on their POV. (Here: http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/pdf/About/BLC-54A.pdf)

My question here is with the type of lights that are allowed to be used.  The form states:

"Emergency warning lights shall be removable or permanently attached of the flashing or revolving type, equipped with a blue lens and controlled by a switch installed inside the vehicle, or shall be blue of the light bar type."

"ALTERNATING FLASHING OR STROBE HEADLIGHTS ARE PROHIBITED AND SHALL NOT BE INCORPORATED INTO THE HOUSING OF ANY LIGHTING"

Now, to me, an "emergency light" is an emergency light.  If I see a blue, red or combo of those, I'm movin' over.  What I'm curious about is this:  Why is it that you can have alternating or flashing, but not alternating flashing?  What's the big deal with alternating flashing lights? 

I'm no LEO or "whacker" (as used in the LEO community to aparrently denote one who loves the lights/sirens/etc), but that just doesn't make sense to me.  They seem pretty much the same.

BillB

TRhe key words are: ALTERNATING FLASHING OR STROBE HEADLIGHTS. Headlights are white and are not light bars or temporary attached lights.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

afgeo4

I'm guessing that headlight lights aren't allowed in NJ for anyone aside from law enforcement. Don't know why strobes aren't allowed in the headlight assembly. They seem to increase safety and are in common use here in NY.
GEORGE LURYE

PhoenixRisen

Quote from: BillB on July 29, 2008, 10:24:36 AM
TRhe key words are: ALTERNATING FLASHING OR STROBE HEADLIGHTS. Headlights are white and are not light bars or temporary attached lights.

I understand the difference, but when I say "they're all the same to me", I mean that in the sense that I stated in my previous post.  Flashing, alternating, alternating flashing, two colors, one color, in the dash, in the headlights, on the roof - I'd still pull over.

My question was - why do they say you can't have those?  What's different about those?  Do flashing headlights mean something specific in Jersey?

nywaeo

The original post asked if we are emergency vehicles, (in NY State) the answer is no...  only Police, Fire Trucks and Ambulances.  (some additional may have red lights,  Fire Chief,  for example)
Blue lights in NY may only be used by volunteer Firefighters, 
Green Lights by members of volunteer ambulance corps. 
As stated elsewhere Amber lights may be displayed,  but I wouldn't mount one permanently on a POV.  (there are permitted on utility co. vehicles, tow trucks, etc.)   

NJMEDIC

NJ will allow a ground team leader a blue light permit, just gives you the "right of way" just like the volunteer fire and ems. Police fire and EMS not even allowed to speed or run red lights have an accident blowing through a red light and you can get a ticket, but have to get to the emergency,  catch 22 huh
Mark J. Burckley,NJ EMT-P
Major  CAP
Member NJ EMS Task Force