Helicopters and CAP?

[Shuman 14]

Question: Does CAP operate and helicopters or are fixed wing aircraft the only ones in use?

Thanks in advance.

[Critical AOA]

Just the stealth ones.

[Flying Pig]

Nope...  none. But Im looking forward to the inevitable discussion coming about R22s and R44s.

However.....  Heres a training my unit did this week.  Im the guy in the green uniform talking.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sMB_LSiFbJs

[Al Sayre]

No, helicopters are too ugly, they only fly because the earth repels them...

Seriously, the operating and maintenance cost per hour is much higher than fixed wing and would severely stress our budget.

[blackrain]

The various State National Guards have a rotary wing capability that make it unnecessary.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/uh-72a-lakota/

Add to the Lakota the Chinooks and Blackhawks that do water drops on fires and nothing comes close to matching the capability.

[Flying Pig]

Well.... My Huey check out was $14,000.   Hows that for Form 5 ? 

[blackrain]

Well.... My Huey check out was $14,000.   Hows that for Form 5 ? 

14K? Wow.....about the cost of my daughters car......still, whats the Vne on that Huey?

[bosshawk]

Vne on the Huey is probably not much different than the top speed on your daughter's car.

Rob: you are looking good.  Glad that you wore the ball cap: saves us seeing the reflections on your head.

[blackrain]

Vne on the Huey is probably not much different than the top speed on your daughter's car.

Rob: you are looking good.  Glad that you wore the ball cap: saves us seeing the reflections on your head.

Moulson Air flew us around A-Stan in their blue and white Hueys. I remember the airspeed indicator seemed to hover around 90kts for most of the trip.

[lordmonar]

I guess in theory a member owned helo could be use.....but that would require a lot of hoop jumping and a lot of money.

[a2capt]

There are ex-members who used to use them.. put 1 and 1 together.

[lordmonar]

There are ex-members who used to use them.. put 1 and 1 together.

Well that could be said about a lot of things.

To get back on my soap box.......what are our mission requirements?  That is what assets (personnel and equipment) that we need to do to support customers.    If they need helo support....then we should look at supplying that support.   If not...then let's not waste our time and money.

If the local R-22 pilot only wants to join so he can his helo and nothing else.....well then thanks for playing we need C-182/C-172/C-206/GA-8 pilots thank your very much.

[Flying Pig]

Vne on the Huey is probably not much different than the top speed on your daughter's car.

Rob: you are looking good.  Glad that you wore the ball cap: saves us seeing the reflections on your head.

Moulson Air flew us around A-Stan in their blue and white Hueys. I remember the airspeed indicator seemed to hover around 90kts for most of the trip.

90kts at 90 gallons per hour is a good rule of thumb on a Huey.     A UH1/B205 is going to run you about $1200 per hour.  A Jet Ranger or MD500 will run you about $500 p/hr.   Anything piston..... naaahhhhh......  not in the real world.   Its fun to talk about, but CAP does not have the infrastructure to support helicopters.  Id give it 3 months before someone crashed it.    THe skill set to be able to fly a helicopter low and slow doing any kind of detailed work far exceeds the skill set needed to fly an airplane in a grid search. 

[SARDOC]

If they need helo support....then we should look at supplying that support.   If not...then let's not waste our time and money.

If anybody needs Helo support the IC should contact the AFRCC and request the most appropriate resource.

[NIN]

Used to be a "member-owned helicopter operations" manual in the 55-series.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=6167.10

[PHall]

Used to be a "member-owned helicopter operations" manual in the 55-series.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=6167.10

Note the phrase, "used to be"...

[Flying Pig]

In the spirit of helicopter discussions 

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Shuman 14]

OK, I seriously didn't know helos were such a forbidden topic in CAP... thanks for the info.

[Critical AOA]

In the spirit of helicopter discussions 

You named your helos after the A-bombs dropped on Japan?  Sweet!

[Shuman 14]

Used to be a "member-owned helicopter operations" manual in the 55-series.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=6167.10

That thread is an interesting read to say the least.

[PHall]

OK, I seriously didn't know helos were such a forbidden topic in CAP... thanks for the info.

It's not a "forbidden" topic, we're just not allowed to use them for CAP business.
The same regulation also bans the use of ultralights, homebuilt aircraft and "experimental" aircraft.
It's in CAPR 60-1 for those who want to know.

[Flying Pig]

Used to be a "member-owned helicopter operations" manual in the 55-series.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=6167.10

That thread is an interesting read to say the least.

WOW.... that thread was a trip down memory lane!  What ever happened to "DNall"?  Didnt he go on to become an Apache Pilot? 

[Shuman 14]

OK, I seriously didn't know helos were such a forbidden topic in CAP... thanks for the info.

It's not a "forbidden" topic, we're just not allowed to use them for CAP business.
The same regulation also bans the use of ultralights, homebuilt aircraft and "experimental" aircraft.
It's in CAPR 60-1 for those who want to know.

But does it ban Airships? 

[PHall]

OK, I seriously didn't know helos were such a forbidden topic in CAP... thanks for the info.

It's not a "forbidden" topic, we're just not allowed to use them for CAP business.
The same regulation also bans the use of ultralights, homebuilt aircraft and "experimental" aircraft.
It's in CAPR 60-1 for those who want to know.

But does it ban Airships? 

Hot air balloons are allowed. Matter of fact, CAP owns 2 of them.

[Flying Pig]

Back when I was a cadet, I was at a cadet conference with a cadet who was wearing balloon pilot wings.  Small problem was that he thought it was a parachute.  He had been told that one jump qualified him for CAP jump wings.  He did a static or tandem jump at the local school and "qualified" for them.  A senior member asked him about it.  Dude was older, probably 17-18yrs old but was a C/SSGT or somewhere around there.  Ended up being some other cadets who told him as a joke and he bought it hook line and sinker.  He only managed to wear them for a day before the bad news hit.  But I will say..... they looked pretty cool    

I personally didnt see the "parachute" in it, but I guess the mind sees what it wants, when it wants.  This was at El Toro CA probably 86-87-88 timeframe.

[SarDragon]

Well.... My Huey check out was $14,000.   Hows that for Form 5 ? 

14K? Wow.....about the cost of my daughters car......still, whats the Vne on that Huey?

From Wikipedia:

Bell 212 - Never exceed speed: 120 knots (138 mph, 223 km/h)
Maximum speed: 120 knots (138 mph, 223 km/h)
Cruise speed: 100 knots (115 mph, 186 km/h)

Bell 205/UH-1D - Maximum speed: 117 knots (135 mph; 217 km/h)
Cruise speed: 109 knots (125 mph; 201 km/h)

[Shuman 14]

OK, I seriously didn't know helos were such a forbidden topic in CAP... thanks for the info.

It's not a "forbidden" topic, we're just not allowed to use them for CAP business.
The same regulation also bans the use of ultralights, homebuilt aircraft and "experimental" aircraft.
It's in CAPR 60-1 for those who want to know.

But does it ban Airships? 

Hot air balloons are allowed. Matter of fact, CAP owns 2 of them.

Cool can we get one like this?

[a2capt]

In the spirit of helicopter discussions 

It so flaaaaaaaaaat.

[Flying Pig]

In the spirit of helicopter discussions 

It so flaaaaaaaaaat.

And you'd still be amazed at how many people manage to get lost!

[NIN]

Back when I was a cadet, I was at a cadet conference with a cadet who was wearing balloon pilot wings.  Small problem was that he thought it was a parachute.  He had been told that one jump qualified him for CAP jump wings.  He did a static or tandem jump at the local school and "qualified" for them.  A senior member asked him about it.  Dude was older, probably 17-18yrs old but was a C/SSGT or somewhere around there.  Ended up being some other cadets who told him as a joke and he bought it hook line and sinker.  He only managed to wear them for a day before the bad news hit.  But I will say..... they looked pretty cool    

I personally didnt see the "parachute" in it, but I guess the mind sees what it wants, when it wants.  This was at El Toro CA probably 86-87-88 timeframe.

Classy. 

[NIN]

That thread is an interesting read to say the least.

Totally

[Flying Pig]

Back when I was a cadet, I was at a cadet conference with a cadet who was wearing balloon pilot wings.  Small problem was that he thought it was a parachute.  He had been told that one jump qualified him for CAP jump wings.  He did a static or tandem jump at the local school and "qualified" for them.  A senior member asked him about it.  Dude was older, probably 17-18yrs old but was a C/SSGT or somewhere around there.  Ended up being some other cadets who told him as a joke and he bought it hook line and sinker.  He only managed to wear them for a day before the bad news hit.  But I will say..... they looked pretty cool    

I personally didnt see the "parachute" in it, but I guess the mind sees what it wants, when it wants.  This was at El Toro CA probably 86-87-88 timeframe.

Classy. 

Don't act like you haven't thought about it

[NIN]

Don't act like you haven't thought about it

CAP Parachute Wings?



I wear 'em all the time.

Yeah, but substituting balloon wings is just.. lame

[PHall]

OK, I seriously didn't know helos were such a forbidden topic in CAP... thanks for the info.

It's not a "forbidden" topic, we're just not allowed to use them for CAP business.
The same regulation also bans the use of ultralights, homebuilt aircraft and "experimental" aircraft.
It's in CAPR 60-1 for those who want to know.

But does it ban Airships? 

Hot air balloons are allowed. Matter of fact, CAP owns 2 of them.

Cool can we get one like this?

You got a NSN for that?

[NIN]

You got a NSN for that?

British dude. They use the Metric system over there...

[Critical AOA]

I am just a fixed wing pilot but I love flying them and CAP provides pilots like me an opportunity to fly n a service capacity as well as fly free/cheap.  However, I would agree with the rotary wing  jocks that they are much better suited to most SAR ops.   

Helos can do Search AND Rescue.  By either dropping a harness / basket or landing in a small nearby clearing, a properly equipped helo can be an absolute life saver.   Fixed wings in most situations can only do Search.  That difference in capability is a major shortcoming to CAP's fixed wing fleet and a very large plus for the rotor heads.  Plus I agree that they perform the search function better due to their low and slow capabilities.  That is one reason that I believe CAP is not the best solution for most SAR ops.  It is hard to argue that point.

However CAP's major strength is in its volunteer pilots and its volunteer ground crews... when they are available.  They work for free and many are very dedicated individuals who want to help.  However, they are not always available and response time runs from pretty darn fast to pretty darn slow. 

The paid members of the various agencies that operate helos are pretty much always available and they have the equipment to boot.  Add the fact that they constantly train in a professional mission oriented manner.  CAP does not always do this very well. 

There is a statistic that I would like to see for both CAP & the rotary wing equipped agencies.  This is the number of finds & saves (pilots, hunters, hikers, etc.) versus hours flown on searches.   Yes helos are more expensive but their success rate is probably far better. 

I think CAP is great but if I were to find myself down in hostile terrain with a broken leg, I'd much rather hear the sound of rotor blades overhead than a prop, though I'd be grateful to whoever saved my butt.

Should CAP then have helos?  That is a question that could be debated ad nauseum.  We obviously have some very qualified rotary wing pilots in CAP though most probably fly for various agencies that would be their priority.  Yet, how many former military helo pilots are out there in civilian life that either do not fly currently or fly corporate and would love the opportunity to volunteer their services to CAP?  Would that talent pool be deep enough to adequately staff CAP helos if CAP had them?  And what platform would we choose? Would we choose something along the lines of a R22 or R44 which would be pretty much limited to search only or would we go with something larger with rescue capabilities as well.  The more capabilities you want, the higher the cost and the costs rise rapidly.  Besides there are plenty of agencies providing rotary wing SAR and doing it extremely well.

I just don't see it happening.

[PHall]

You got a NSN for that?

British dude. They use the Metric system over there...

They're in NATO, they use NSN's. It's covered in one of the STANAG's.

[NIN]

They're in NATO, they use NSN's. It's covered in one of the STANAG's.

Dude, totally pre-NATO. 

[PHall]

They're in NATO, they use NSN's. It's covered in one of the STANAG's.

Dude, totally pre-NATO.

Have you seen the latest MoD budget?

[Shuman 14]

Don't act like you haven't thought about it

CAP Parachute Wings?



I wear 'em all the time.

Yeah, but substituting balloon wings is just.. lame

Not to sound ignorant but does/did CAP have a Parachute qualification?

[JeffDG]

OK, I seriously didn't know helos were such a forbidden topic in CAP... thanks for the info.

It's not a "forbidden" topic, we're just not allowed to use them for CAP business.
The same regulation also bans the use of ultralights, homebuilt aircraft and "experimental" aircraft.
It's in CAPR 60-1 for those who want to know.

But does it ban Airships? 

Hot air balloons are allowed. Matter of fact, CAP owns 2 of them.

Cool can we get one like this?

That would make a fantastic highbird platform!

[a2capt]

..and launch the sorties from there. Send up the boxes of doughnuts, coffee and don't come back until they find what it is they're looking for.

[Garibaldi]

..and launch the sorties from there. Send up the boxes of doughnuts, coffee and don't come back until they find what it is they're looking for.

Oh, the humanity...