Resumption of overnight activities - any plan or discussion?

Started by Eclipse, August 18, 2020, 12:33:43 AM

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Eclipse

I was wondering if there was any discussion or presentation during the CompuServe CB Simulator Virtual National Conference regarding the resumption of overnight activities, especially Encampments and NCSAs.

My personal feeling is that absent a vaccine / effective direct treatment, there is no way NHQ can allow overnights to resume, and even then I am anticipating any number of venues, especially schools and military bases, to be reluctant to allow outside groups to use their facilities.

Right now the services are quarantining recruits for two weeks before allowing them to report to BMT.
That's obviously a non-starter for CAP.

And the above doesn't include Secretary Esper's memo to the effect that non-reimbursable resource use must be focused on warfighter goals which I have yet to see any information on in regards to how that affects CAP.

"That Others May Zoom"

PHall

NHQ has absolutely no say in the matter right now.
The states, counties and cities are calling the shots right now.

Fubar

There was a whole session dedicated to it, "Encampment and Overnight Activities During COVID-19" by Lt Col Christine Lee. It's available for your viewing for the next year.

Fubar

Quote from: PHall on August 18, 2020, 12:39:36 AMNHQ has absolutely no say in the matter right now.
The states, counties and cities are calling the shots right now.

Well technically NHQ does have a say in the matter if they come out and say regardless of what your state is doing, we don't want you doing overnight activities. At first that seemed to be NHQ's approach, they locked everything down regardless of local conditions but now they seem to be looking for any excuse to open things up.

Eclipse

Quote from: Fubar on August 18, 2020, 03:07:08 AMThere was a whole session dedicated to it, "Encampment and Overnight Activities During COVID-19" by Lt Col Christine Lee. It's available for your viewing for the next year.

Where?

"That Others May Zoom"

Capt Thompson

Quote from: Eclipse on August 18, 2020, 03:50:28 AM
Quote from: Fubar on August 18, 2020, 03:07:08 AMThere was a whole session dedicated to it, "Encampment and Overnight Activities During COVID-19" by Lt Col Christine Lee. It's available for your viewing for the next year.

Where?
Friday at 19:00
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

Eclipse


"That Others May Zoom"


Eclipse


"That Others May Zoom"

BJD

Quote from: Eclipse on August 18, 2020, 01:44:06 PMNot accessible to the general membership.

So you will probably need to log in through your original conference link first.

Eclipse

Did not attend, which was why I asked in the firstplace.

One can only imagine the various "reasons" these are beyond a payfreewall, or why NHQ
found it necessary to restrict this content only to "participants".

These should all have been on Youtube with no registration necessary where they would live in perpetuity
with easy access.

"That Others May Zoom"

Capt Thompson

Ah didn't realize you didn't attend. Not sure why they wouldn't put them up on Youtube, unless there are restrictions from the vendor that prevent it maybe? Seems like a no-brainer to put them up for everyone.
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Fubar on August 18, 2020, 03:08:56 AM
Quote from: PHall on August 18, 2020, 12:39:36 AMNHQ has absolutely no say in the matter right now.
The states, counties and cities are calling the shots right now.

Well technically NHQ does have a say in the matter if they come out and say regardless of what your state is doing, we don't want you doing overnight activities. At first that seemed to be NHQ's approach, they locked everything down regardless of local conditions but now they seem to be looking for any excuse to open things up.

Some states do permit overnight activities.

NHQ is basically saying "No overnight activities until Phase III Remob." That means that they have a say in how all of this works, particularly in respect to states that are allowing overnight activities. Some states aren't even establishing those sorts of policies and are only issuing orders in respect to the volume of an activity's attendance and not its duration.

National Headquarters really has the ownership on what CAP can or cannot do at this point. If a state law or gubernatorial order results in an activity restriction, then that can really occur at any time throughout a year. And there are probably statutes out there that impose additional restrictions beyond what CAP might allow as a nation-wide organization. Lest we forget what other countries permit for overseas units.

If NHQ said, tomorrow, "We're allowing overnight activities in Phase I," then so be it; they're suddenly allowed. In some states, it's permissible.

Eclipse

Blanket civil restrictions obviously have a significant part in this conversation but it's only the start.
NHQ is free to make national policy more restrictive, but has no authority to relieve local legal directives.

The more complex conversation is around internal processes, procedures, and requirements, not to mention
activity viability (which pre-supposes there are venues that will host CAP to start with).

A state with little (or no) restrictions might be allowed to hold overnights, but obviously they could not
allow tourism from other wings that have legal restrictions around travel.

Further, as schools and places like Disney are showing, you can open the doors, but that doesn't mean people
will show up, and Encampments, especially, have a critical mass of viability, but so do most NCSAs. And of course parents not working, or partially employed, may well not be in a position to be spending hundreds of dollars on an optional activity, on top of being reluctant to send their kids regardless.

My oldest son is on the East coast for his freshman year of college, the decision
was not easy to make, and were it mine alone the answer would have been "no".  Suffice to say the
school itself is awash in a mess of quarantine's, lock-ins, and daily changes to policies as
it struggles to figure out what's worth the risk, what isn't, and who's paying for everything.

And then of course there's the non-trivial issue of venue availability regardless of local restrictions or NHQ's policy. The would be an area where, presumably, "Total Force" could be some help, but realistically,
what base commander with any sense is going to risk getting their entire facility shut down so some
cadets can have an encampment?

The other concern is that, absent any actual information to the contrary, history would show that NHQ is probably focused on Summer 2021, which means decisions "don't have to be made until January", however as the end of the FY approaches, Winter and Spring activities will already have to be considering their options, at this point in a vacuum.

Most estimates are putting a generally available vaccine around the end of the year at the earliest, which doesn't bode well for this issue, nor retention in general, which for those of you scoring at home, is looking like a waterfall since they turned off the expiration moratorium. There are a significant number of cadets, especially, who will not stick around if overnight activities are cancelled for the foreseeable, which could make staffing even harder then it already is, and even if they come back once The Vid is "over" (or there's a steady state of "x"), their progression and training will be delayed at best.

It would be nice to know what the current thinking is, what decisions regarding deadlines are being considered, and maybe even allow stakeholders to be involved in the conversation.

"That Others May Zoom"

Holding Pattern

Quote from: Eclipse on August 18, 2020, 02:13:58 PMDid not attend, which was why I asked in the firstplace.

One can only imagine the various "reasons" these are beyond a payfreewall, or why NHQ
found it necessary to restrict this content only to "participants".

These should all have been on Youtube with no registration necessary where they would live in perpetuity
with easy access.

The same reason we have some items behind an e-services lock: Not all information is meant for general public's consumption.

Seems silly to have skipped registering given the price though.

Capt Thompson

Even though the conference is over, have you tried registering? I know registrations were allowed during the conference, they may not have disabled registrations yet, in which case you could register and view all of the content for a year.

https://civilairpatrol2020.pathable.co/register-here
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

JC004

I have not watched it yet, but the link to that specific presentation ("Encampment and Overnight Activities During COVID-19") is:

https://civilairpatrol2020.pathable.co/meetings/virtual/DeXGfnCqs74A9Ludu

They also noted that if they couldn't get to a question, e-mail cadets@capnhq..gov

SarDragon

I tried Colgan's link and all I get is spinning wheels. It appears that registration is still possible, but I did not try to complete the process.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

PHall

It came up for me, but I was registered for the conference so I still had an "active" registration still in the system.

etodd

Quote from: Eclipse on August 18, 2020, 12:33:43 AMMy personal feeling is that absent a vaccine / effective direct treatment, there is no way NHQ can allow overnights to resume ....

If the vaccine came out today, half the country will not jump to get it. Many will wait a few months or a year, to let others be the 'beta testers'.  Imagine the whole country getting it right away, and then a few months later the CDC saying "whoops!".

May as well just figure CAP will be down all through 2021. I wouldn't even begin to start thinking of overnight events until 2022.

JMHO

"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

PHall

Quote from: etodd on August 19, 2020, 12:20:44 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 18, 2020, 12:33:43 AMMy personal feeling is that absent a vaccine / effective direct treatment, there is no way NHQ can allow overnights to resume ....

If the vaccine came out today, half the country will not jump to get it. Many will wait a few months or a year, to let others be the 'beta testers'.  Imagine the whole country getting it right away, and then a few months later the CDC saying "whoops!".

May as well just figure CAP will be down all through 2021. I wouldn't even begin to start thinking of overnight events until 2022.

JMHO




There's also the "Anti-vaxxers" who don't believe in getting any vaccines at all.
That could be anywhere from 15 to 25 percent of the population.

JC004

Quote from: SarDragon on August 18, 2020, 09:18:43 PMI tried Colgan's link and all I get is spinning wheels. It appears that registration is still possible, but I did not try to complete the process.

You CAN still register.  It's even mentioned in the national newsletter.  You have to be logged in to use these links.  Then they're work fine.

TheSkyHornet

So my understanding is that we wanted to limit overnight activities to decrease the amount of contact time between individuals.

If that's the case, why not just limit meetings and activities to 8 hours; or even 3 hours?

Not to get scientific here, but technically speaking, we can hold a 20-hour day with a rest break but not sleep in separate tents. I don't really get the consistency.

I do, however, understand that it's the conservative approach because, no matter how much guidance you give, someone is going to screw it up and cause a problem. But I feel like if we permit everyone to get together for a full day of 6-foot separation, then which has all of the same food consumption and hygiene needs over the same time period, why does it matter if they're awake or asleep? We can run a 14-hour day of model rocketry with 8 cadets and 2 seniors, but we have those same 8 cadets and 2 seniors show up at 7pm, do some rocketry, sleep at 9pm, wake up at 6am, and do a few more hours of rocketry in the morning before leaving. Other than the time wasted sleeping rather than doing the activities, I don't see the difference.

That goes back to me saying that I understand that it's tough to make guidance for tents versus hotels versus cabins, etc. And you're going to see someone do it anyway at some point (in which case it's really incumbent upon the leadership to address those issues...because I've seen far too many instances already where social distancing has not been maintained during Phase 0 and Phase I activities). The inconsistency gets frustrating.

Spam

Good question, Hornet (why does it matter if they're asleep).


My perspective comes from my DoD/DoE NBC/CBR training and working in contaminated areas, where dosage is a product of shielding and distance factored over time.  In other words, given an airborne contaminant, your shielding factor measures uptake rate into your body and can range from none (no eye protection, no mask/no respirator) to full PCs. Your distance from the source factor measures exposure rate (how many particles per minute/hour - how dense is the cloud). Then, you take those factors over the time you're IN the cloud, wearing whatever shielding.


So from that perspective, the nuclear/defense industry has a best practice called ALARA (As Low As Reasonably Achievable). My father (Navy nuke 1st gen, TMI2 RAT team engineer, original INPO guy) was one of the original authors and he explained it thus:  you plan your work/training in a contaminated area before entering, you get your tools and materials ready, verbally walk through it, and then execute without lingering in order to reduce the exposure that makes it through shielding given that you have to be close to the source.


For CAP, applying ALARA to your question means: why accept the added exposure to the contaminant by planning your hypothetical overnight sleep, with members breathing the same facility air? Instead, CAP planners should plan events using ALARA as your first (day only) example event: get in, train using shielding and distance, and get out (minimizing exposure time).


If anyone thinks shared facility air isn't a watch item (i.e. "what could possibly go wrong in a hotel") I would respectfully point to the history of Legionnaires disease outbreaks as case studies, as well as USN current experience with deployed personnel and current outbreaks during BMT. 


So, that to me is why it does in fact matter if they're awake or asleep, as you ask.


Respectfully Submitted (R/s)
Spam

TheSkyHornet

That's an entirely fair assessment, spam. But that still doesn't really apply to single-occupancy tented environments in open air conditions.

In this case, we would probably want to encourage outdoor activities more than indoor activities when possible. And this is something almost discouraged by many Wings as part of their remobilization plans as many Wings are actually limited their Phase I to light classroom-based activities only, to include primarily desktop training or staff meetings. I would think that those activities are the ones we would want to encourage to remain virtual while encouraging outdoor activities to reduce exposure.

Additionally, we see other close proximity activities that are authorized, such as flight training, which can last for several hours in an aircraft interior sitting only inches away. We call it mission essential, but it's really not in the trade off of disease exposure to recreational flying in many student pilot cases, particularly cadets.

Like I said, I go back to the assumption that it's just easier to issue blanket policy guidelines. The more complicated and complex the instructions are, the more opportunity for inadvertent deviation (e.g., if you tell people they can only do overnights in tents rather than hotels, you're going to end up with someone camping out in an airplane hangar thus breaking the rules).

I just wish the currently guidelines that we operate by was equally enforced. You see a number of Phase I gatherings on social media (or even in Wings that are still in Phase 0 where they operate under the guise of a assigned mission), and they're not following protocol. Then the leadership doesn't address it, or at least not in a serious sense. Then we're left with prolonged stand-downs or more restrictive policies because simple rules and instructions couldn't be followed at the start.

My frustration: those of us that attempt to be textbook rule junkies get stuck with the consequences of others' non-compliance.

Spam

Well, sure. We've seen that through posts here (posts now locked... so lets be nonspecific).

As the saying goes, "Aviation is in itself not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect" (attributed to Capt. A.G. Lamplugh, early 1930s). We've got an awful lot of OCD type people in aviation and engineering as a result of our learned tribal culture (and some natural tendencies) and we try to consciously/unconsciously police our aviation community as a result. Overkill? Perhaps... I think so at times. But that OCD Safety mindset is pretty culturally rooted by now. God knows I've had too many former shipmates die in crashes, and have worked on bases where the roads and hangars are named after dead pilots. So it is a cultural impulse in many of us to apply ORM and ALARA.

When I was a Wing Vice Commander, I did a rough plan for a smaller, multi weekend ES-themed Type B Encampment, which garnered some real interest, but we shelved it in case of future need. If we do reopen the bottle here, perhaps we need to consider a smaller model of Encampments wherein we... well, actually Encamp...

But to your point, I think using ALARA as an element to assess exposure likelihood while doing ORM risk planning is sound. Were I to see a plan which was executed by trained staff, mandated individual tents, distancing, and masks, and an actual training plan with an agenda mapped to a schedule to go in, train, and get out, I'd lean to approve it.

But I'd be sure to take the upwind tent.

;D
Spam

Eclipse

I registered, logged in, watched the presentation.
No idea why this is behind a block, or why they were not simply posted on Youtube.
It's just Lt Col Lee speaking for ~30 minutes.

I didn't have any interest in registering for this chat room conference because...
A - Despite The Vid, I have work to actually do during the day.
B - I had no interest in artificially "+1'ing" a conference that will already have too many
empty seats and no shows just to inflate the numbers.
C - As I suspected, most of the content is old news, tech presentations for things CAP will never get near,
and wishful thinking that will never come to fruition, as per most conferences.

However for those of you taking the ticket punch towards promotion, good 'on 'ye. "Why not?" Right?

With that said, the presentation is primarily an exercise in SWOT and just presents the same questions
CAP has had since this debacle started. There's a lot of "we'll see", and "we're discussing", and as I suspected, the main focus is Summer 2021, which frankly I don't see happening anyway.

I was happy enough to see that "Virtual Encampments" are not yet being considered, but the idea
that a Type B is a fix for this really isn't going to fly.  Type B encampments are more difficult
to execute, while actually increasing the overall infection risk to both the participants and their families.

The elephant in the room is that this situation is literally like nothing else CAP has had to deal with in that not only is it potentially fatal, but lives well past the activity itself. And again, based on current thinking, a non-trivial percentage of the adult staff are at higher then average risk of complications,
while the cadet population are potential asymptomatic carriers.

Encampments, by design, already compromise immune systems due to the high-stress and ops tempo, especially for
the primary planning and cadet staff. Everyone involved with them has experienced "Encampment Crud" at some point during or after, as mixing people together with diverse strains of all manner of "blech" at a time when people are run down results in outstanding flus (or worse).

Then we have the (presumably) "well-meaning" parents who send their kids with everything from bad colds to
seizure disorders (not hyperbole) with nary a mention of the health issues, or without their medication, etc., etc.,in the name of "not wanting Johnny to miss out".  That, alone, has been an increasing problematic health issue in regards to these type of activities.  It's not out of the realm that parents will not indicate
that "Dad flies a lot to China and has a really bad cough." The week before encampment, especially if they
have an important (or important to them) job.  And if they are over 18, we're in the position of literally trusting a teenager, with divided attention span and allegiances, with life and death decisions that effect other people.

The difference in those cases is that, while they can be a HUGE hassle for the staff, the impact health-wise
is generally only for the member in question, and rarely, if ever, fatal.  Not so in this case.  And there's really no test that is effective with C19 because unless it's instant, you only know the member in question wasn't positive on the day of the test - there's no way to know that they didn't get it by bumping into someone in line on the way out of the test facility.

The presumed incubation period is too long to allow for vetting or quarantine at the facility itself, and again, all of the above are only the internal CAP issues, which don't even address the reluctance of service personnel to get their volunteer helpers infected, parents not risking their kids health, and adult staff who will also opt out for the same reason. You can't run an encampment with 10 people on hopes and gumption.

There was also mention of not allowing tourism from states in different status levels.  I'm sure all of you can
see why anything less then "no interstate participation" could become a nightmare overnight.  Would there need
to be "quarantine officers" who monitor a respective state's levels? And does anyone think cadets won't get
creative to game that issue? Who's at risk liability-wise if a member makes a bad call and lets someone in from
a Phase 0 or 1 state who then infects everyone and someone dies? Or for that matter even from within the state?
Or the state is late in dropping their level until mid-week?

Personally I don't think any overnights should resume anywhere until the majority of schools nationally have returned to in-face classes, but I'm also doubtful that idea will be shared by all.

As to vaccinations, well, good luck with that - CAP is unable to mandate them now, so there's no expectation they would do anything about it in this regard. As far as I'm concerned that's not CAP's problem. Right now, people choosing to make public stances and statements about personal rights are risking the health of others, But once there is a a vaccine or viable treatment, from there if people want to become Darwin test subjects, that's really not CAP's problem, and I suppose if the majority are inoculated then the herd immunity comes into play like with other similar diseases.

The comment at the end that the next year will be "grim" is probably as close to any prediction as NHQ can make
right now, but it doesn't really help in regards to making decisions. From my perspective, the membership
would be much better off if blanket calls up to certain times were made now, or soon, instead of the same
"death by 1000 cancellations" it's been so far this year.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: Spam on August 19, 2020, 11:08:26 PMice Commander, I did a rough plan for a smaller, multi weekend ES-themed Type B Encampment, which garnered some real interest, but we shelved it in case of future need. If we do reopen the bottle here, perhaps we need to consider a smaller model of Encampments wherein we... well, actually Encamp...

That would be a bivouac, not an encampment, unless NHQ significantly changes the structure and intent of the encampment program.  I know you know that, but making the point for those scoring at home.

Also, reducing the scale doesn't reduce the risk to the individuals (though it may statistically), and unless you
use all different staff, mini-encampments would actually raise the cross-contamination risk between activities.
Considering the current membership curve, not to mention the state CAP was in already, there are not
likely the personnel to be running Mini-E's on a scale that would be helpful (assuming it was a good idea to start with).

"That Others May Zoom"

Ned

A couple of observations:

1.  Even if things don't get better by mid-winter, we will not be discussing completely virtual encampments.  It's just not encampment.  We will find other solutions if necessary.

2.  There is nothing in the 60-20 that requires encampments to be held in brick and mortar buildings.  Encampments could be conducted in the field using tentage.  I once went deep into the planning process for a Type A outside the contonement area of a military installation.  Bases often have "deployment training sites" with areas designated for tents, hardstand latrines, and classrooms.  My issues came down to finding enough GP mediums or larges, and figuring out how to get them put up and taken down.  Including a possible delay in taking them down if they got wet the last day of encampment.  (You can't store wet tentage.). I could not resource them in time, so we had to cancel.

Heck, you could indeed use individual tents ("BYOT") if you were so inclined.  It would be a challenge to meet the curricula, and I would love to come visit.  But the bottom line is that there is no rule that prevents a CAP encampment from being held in the field.  Obviously, even if the cadets spend the night in individual tents, military social distance would still be required in class, meal times, etc. until we leave Phase 3 of the remob plan.

3.  The encampment seminar at the conference was presented by Ms. Joanna Lee of the NHQ corporate team, and not LtCol Christine Lee who recently suffered a severe injury.  (Sing it with me:  "Here a Lee, there a Lee, everywhere a Lee, a Lee . . .")

4.  Once we all have access to an effective vaccine, there is no reason that we could not require a vaccination for all members attending encampment.  Indeed, my guess is that many institutions (Schools, military bases, etc.) will be requiring vaccination certificates.  But let's get an effective vaccine before we begin the "you can't make me get a vaccination before you let me do X" argument.

None of us knows when the virus conditions will change.  Like CAP uniforms, we can be certain that things will significantly change in the future.  Just nobody knows when.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager

Eclipse

I went and visited the encampment today.

It's tucked away in shipping containers in a storage facility.
Flags, guidons, coins, (dated) award streamers, stuff sacks, etc., etc.
All just waiting quietly and in some cases expiring.

There will be no 2020 or 2021 Honor Cadet(s) or Flight(s). Sad to think we'll
probably just throw those awards away - so much for advance planning.

There will be no '21 for at least this activity (in the before times we'd
have a full org chart, and be deep into planning calls with about a 90 days until RST).

Now there's a non-zero chance this particular activity, with a nearly 30 year history,
might have graduated its last cadet 2 years ago.

Nothing to see here, move on...


"That Others May Zoom"

Phil Hirons, Jr.

The institutional knowledge drain on the cadet side (and to a lesser extent senior side) will be tough to refill.

PHall

But if we ever wanted to do a "reset" on how we do encampment, now would be the time.

ZigZag911

Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on January 22, 2021, 08:19:35 PMThe institutional knowledge drain on the cadet side (and to a lesser extent senior side) will be tough to refill.

As we both know all too well, for some wings that have gone completely off the rails, this opportunity for a fresh start is a real blessing in disguise!

The rest will simply have to follow the mantra of Gunny Hiway: Improvise!  Adapt!  Overcome!

Fubar

Quote from: PHall on January 22, 2021, 09:01:48 PMBut if we ever wanted to do a "reset" on how we do encampment, now would be the time.

The last reset was pretty thorough. National standardization, elimination of the Gunnery Sergeant Hartman wannabes, emphasizing the purpose of encampment isn't stress inoculation but an introduction of "CAP cadet life" by emphasizing all the great aspects of the cadet program. It's a pretty solid syllabus.

If there are changes to be made, I'd be interested to hear ideas from guys like Eclipse who has run encampments for longer than most of the cadets who attend have been alive.

CAP9907

And here we are Ned....  any updates?

~9907

Quote from: Ned on August 20, 2020, 04:14:11 AMA couple of observations:

1.  Even if things don't get better by mid-winter, we will not be discussing completely virtual encampments.  It's just not encampment.  We will find other solutions if necessary.

2.  There is nothing in the 60-20 that requires encampments to be held in brick and mortar buildings.  Encampments could be conducted in the field using tentage.  I once went deep into the planning process for a Type A outside the contonement area of a military installation.  Bases often have "deployment training sites" with areas designated for tents, hardstand latrines, and classrooms.  My issues came down to finding enough GP mediums or larges, and figuring out how to get them put up and taken down.  Including a possible delay in taking them down if they got wet the last day of encampment.  (You can't store wet tentage.). I could not resource them in time, so we had to cancel.

Heck, you could indeed use individual tents ("BYOT") if you were so inclined.  It would be a challenge to meet the curricula, and I would love to come visit.  But the bottom line is that there is no rule that prevents a CAP encampment from being held in the field.  Obviously, even if the cadets spend the night in individual tents, military social distance would still be required in class, meal times, etc. until we leave Phase 3 of the remob plan.

3.  The encampment seminar at the conference was presented by Ms. Joanna Lee of the NHQ corporate team, and not LtCol Christine Lee who recently suffered a severe injury.  (Sing it with me:  "Here a Lee, there a Lee, everywhere a Lee, a Lee . . .")

4.  Once we all have access to an effective vaccine, there is no reason that we could not require a vaccination for all members attending encampment.  Indeed, my guess is that many institutions (Schools, military bases, etc.) will be requiring vaccination certificates.  But let's get an effective vaccine before we begin the "you can't make me get a vaccination before you let me do X" argument.

None of us knows when the virus conditions will change.  Like CAP uniforms, we can be certain that things will significantly change in the future.  Just nobody knows when.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager
21 yrs of service

Our Members Code of Conduct can be found here:   http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13.0

Ned

Coincidentally, we were just discussing this at the Youth Development Conference last weekend with all the DCPs.

At this point our Mark VII Ball, Crystal, one each, tells us that vaccine distribution - and in particular youth vaccine distribution— makes it unlikely that a full set of encampments can safely be conducted this summer.  Which, after all, is just a few months away.  Our crystal ball suggests that some, but not most, wings might be able to have their traditional style encampment.

Accordingly, we are finishing a revision / consolidation of the various CP COVID-related waivers and modifications.  We hope to have it published by the end of the month.  The revision / consolidation will likely allow non-encampment attendees to earn both the Earhart and Mitchell Awards.  And allow non-encampment attendees to apply for NCSAs, provided they meet the other requirements.

(We are also updating the guidance for Eaker awards without an in-residence leadership school, limited age waivers for Spaatz examinees who have been unable to complete the exam due to local CV-related restrictions, and the other necessary changes to ensure that cadets can otherwise progress in the program.)

We need to complete coordination with our AF colleagues who are stakeholders in the encampment aspect of our program due to the "Mitchell = E3" incentive.

We were circulating the (hopefully) final draft today within the section.  As I said, we hope to have it out and on the street in a little over a week.

Please note that although the Mark VII Crystal Ball is the most sophisticated technology available in the marketplace, the degree of confidence remains sub optimal.

What else can I tell you about?

baronet68

Quote from: Ned on January 23, 2021, 04:50:20 AMPlease note that although the Mark VII Crystal Ball is the most sophisticated technology available in the marketplace, the degree of confidence remains sub optimal.

Geez, I'm still using my old Mark III Ball, Crystal, (Surplus-Remanufactured), one each from the 1990's... I really need an upgrade.
Michael Moore, Lt Col, CAP
National Recruiting & Retention Manager

Eclipse

Early Summer activities starting to drop off.

Updated NCSA Encampment memo (26 APR 2021:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R_601__27_April_2021__Waiver_2102_6B293C3EDE4A9.pdf

Updated Cadet Program waivers and allowances memo (FEB 2021):
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/2001_Consolidated_CP_Waiver_65F4C58FD8848.pdf

Updated NCSA ORM & Encampment Info (26 APR 2021):
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CAP_CC_Letter_on_COVID19_RM_for_Mul_972298769A4E1.pdf
Biggest change I see is replacing -50 day Phase III requirement with -50 & -45 day Leadership
consideration and go/no-go announcement, respectively.


Current maps:
https://www.covidactnow.org/




Regardless, for all intents and purposes, a wing has to be in Phase III to have overnights.
Yes, there are theoretical allowances otherwise, but in most cases, for most venues,
those allowances will not be possible, and / or raise other ORM and logistical issues
beyond what is generally reasonable for these types of activities. At some point it's
just more hassle then it's worth, especially for what will certainly be a curtailed
attendance, regardless.

And again, this assumes the respective venues are available, which is not a given.

As I started to write this, I didn't think there could possibly be any Wing at Phase III before
the end of June, however somehow CAWG has managed to convince NHQ otherwise, hopefully
this doesn't come back to bite them.
See here: https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/covid-19-remobilization
I can tell you this is not fully correct based on my knowledge of several wings, including
my own, indicated incorrectly.


Phase III is essentially the "all clear", and despite the above maps being "better", they are not "great",
with several notable states starting to move back in the other direction and Governors considering
last-year level inter-state quarantines, and there is also an expectation of a surge caused by kids coming
home from school and people who just can't conceive of not going on vacation.

Sour grapes?  Yep.

Jealous of wings that get things moving again?  Yep. (but not so much as to push unnecessarily)

You don't need to point that out. I have a mirror.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Updated activity memos from NHQ - TL;DR masks not required for the vaxxed.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CAP_CC_Memo_re_CAP_Vaccination_and__2E552DF09E270.pdf
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CAP_CC_Letter_on_COVID19_RM_26_Apr__F41AFCF22B356.pdf

Cue the "you can't make me!", "discrimination!", and of course the beloved "HIPPA!" conversations.

This situation is evolving so fast it's ridiculous.

It would also be nice if there was some sort of member notice when these are updated.

"That Others May Zoom"

Dad Jokes

There was.  It was emailed to all Commanders yesterday, early afternoon. Before it was posted.

JohhnyD

Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2021, 12:06:53 AMUpdated activity memos from NHQ - TL;DR masks not required for the vaxxed.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CAP_CC_Memo_re_CAP_Vaccination_and__2E552DF09E270.pdf
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CAP_CC_Letter_on_COVID19_RM_26_Apr__F41AFCF22B356.pdf

Cue the "you can't make me!", "discrimination!", and of course the beloved "HIPPA!" conversations.

This situation is evolving so fast it's ridiculous.

It would also be nice if there was some sort of member notice when these are updated.
Simple, we reinstated "Don't ask, don't tell." That is all. My unit is pretty much back to normal, our Wing Encampment is scheduled and filling up.

Eclipse


"That Others May Zoom"

Capt Thompson

Hipaa only applies to healthcare providers, pharmacies, insurance, etc. It protects you from having your doctor or pharmacy disclose confidential info to others, and you also have a personal right not to disclose this information to anyone. What it doesn't protect you against, is an organization refusing service or admittance for not providing this info, so you don't have to disclose, but if you don't, the org has a right to tell you no.

I'm surprised, with all of the usual bureaucracy, they are leaving this on the honor system and making the disclosures voluntary. "If someone voluntarily discloses they haven't been vaccinated, they will be required to wear a mask." So what happens if someone shows for an activity, lies about their vaccination status, and gets another member sick? Sure we check temp at the beginning of an activity, but what if their symptoms don't show until day 2 of Encampment?
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

JohhnyD

Quote from: Capt Thompson on May 20, 2021, 01:08:59 PMHipaa only applies to healthcare providers, pharmacies, insurance, etc. It protects you from having your doctor or pharmacy disclose confidential info to others, and you also have a personal right not to disclose this information to anyone. What it doesn't protect you against, is an organization refusing service or admittance for not providing this info, so you don't have to disclose, but if you don't, the org has a right to tell you no.
Yep, and how foolish would saying no to a member for their valid refusal to discuss medical issues with unrelated laymen?
Quote from: Capt Thompson on May 20, 2021, 01:08:59 PMI'm surprised, with all of the usual bureaucracy, they are leaving this on the honor system and making the disclosures voluntary. "If someone voluntarily discloses they haven't been vaccinated, they will be required to wear a mask." So what happens if someone shows for an activity, lies about their vaccination status, and gets another member sick? Sure we check temp at the beginning of an activity, but what if their symptoms don't show until day 2 of Encampment?
Compare the states with rigid mask and social distance policies versus those w/o and you will find that there is no statistically significant difference. Temparature checks are also of almost no value. Herd immunity is why we are opening up again. This crisis is done.

JohhnyD

Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2021, 05:05:39 AM
Quote from: JohhnyD on May 20, 2021, 03:45:37 AMSimple, we reinstated "Don't ask, don't tell."






Good luck with that.
Thanks, we have had good luck all along. Odds are we will continue to. Thanks though.

NovemberWhiskey

#45
Quote from: JohhnyD on May 20, 2021, 02:07:42 PMHerd immunity is why we are opening up again. This crisis is done.
Sorry, no - let's be clear here, the only change in policy relates to members who have been vaccinated. Unvaccinated members "will be required to wear masks, practice social distancing, and continue all other public health measures recommended by the CDC or state/local/tribal/territorial public health entity for the locality."

From my perspective, it is incumbent on members to respect this rather than substituting their own judgment. This is absolutely not "don't ask, don't tell" - I would consider an unvaccinated member misrepresenting their vaccination status by turning up to an event without a mask as a serious core values problem.

NovemberWhiskey

Quote from: JohhnyD on May 20, 2021, 02:07:42 PMYep, and how foolish would saying no to a member for their valid refusal to discuss medical issues with unrelated laymen?
No-one is being asked to disclose anything about their medical issues. "Can you confirm you are fully vaccinated against COVID-19?" requires only a yes or no answer. No-one is suggesting an interrogation about why not if the answer is no.

Also: have you never been to an activity which has required a CAPF 160 health history form?

Jester

Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2021, 12:06:53 AMIt would also be nice if there was some sort of member notice when these are updated.

There's been a lot of this lately, with stuff getting sent out via Props.  I'll be the bad guy and say I tend to delete it without reading it. 

Policy doesn't need to go out to us via some semi-newsletter.

Capt Thompson

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on May 20, 2021, 02:38:03 PM
Quote from: JohhnyD on May 20, 2021, 02:07:42 PMYep, and how foolish would saying no to a member for their valid refusal to discuss medical issues with unrelated laymen?
No-one is being asked to disclose anything about their medical issues. "Can you confirm you are fully vaccinated against COVID-19?" requires only a yes or no answer. No-one is suggesting an interrogation about why not if the answer is no.

Also: have you never been to an activity which has required a CAPF 160 health history form?


This^^^^

We are asked to disclose medical information at most activities, and misrepresenting that data to ensure you have a better chance of attending the event is a serious integrity issue.

JohnnyD, you've heard the phrase "everyone is a safety officer?" Safety of our members includes keeping them healthy, so saying things are over, return to normal ops, hmmm I wonder why Maj Bagadonuts in running a fever and wheezing all of a sudden, must be allergies cause the virus is over......is completely negligent on our part.
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

Eclipse

Quote from: JohhnyD on May 20, 2021, 02:07:42 PMHerd immunity is why we are opening up again. This crisis is done.

You might want to look up what that actually means - for example, your state is currently at less
then 40% vaxxed.

Not only is it not "over" this attitude is why Covid will be an ongoing issue for the foreseeable.

Being manageable from a health care perspective doesn't make it "done".

"That Others May Zoom"

TheSkyHornet

Where I'm at a total loss is that NHQ has essentially depleted their enforcement of the Remobilization Plan templates from the first outline of the Remob Plan deployed last year.

We've resorted to individual Wings having the ability to write different policies that don't necessarily fall under a Phase 1, 2, or 3 structure as initially outlined; and instead, it has become a "submit what you've got and we'll take a look."

Not that I'm not okay with that. I like the flexibility. But I'm not really grasping why we have Remobilization Plans at all under our corporate hierarchy at this point. We might as well just say "operate within the guidance of your state/territory."

My state has some clearly different protocols than our surrounding states. I'm not sure that having a very specific guideline for activities is an effective way to (1) maintain morale, and (2) maintain efficacy in our activities when the state mandates/guidance change weekly.

At what point does NHQ forgo the whole Phased remobilization concept altogether?

NovemberWhiskey

Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2021, 04:46:59 PMYou might want to look up what that actually means - for example, your state is currently at less then 40% vaxxed
... and Kootenai County (which I believe is where the squadron is located; apologies if this is wrong) is currently on an up-trend in cases, test positivity and new hospital admissions.

Eclipse

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on May 20, 2021, 06:05:53 PMWhere I'm at a total loss is that NHQ has essentially depleted their enforcement of the Remobilization Plan templates from the first outline of the Remob Plan deployed last year.

We've resorted to individual Wings having the ability to write different policies that don't necessarily fall under a Phase 1, 2, or 3 structure as initially outlined; and instead, it has become a "submit what you've got and we'll take a look."

Not that I'm not okay with that. I like the flexibility. But I'm not really grasping why we have Remobilization Plans at all under our corporate hierarchy at this point. We might as well just say "operate within the guidance of your state/territory."

My state has some clearly different protocols than our surrounding states. I'm not sure that having a very specific guideline for activities is an effective way to (1) maintain morale, and (2) maintain efficacy in our activities when the state mandates/guidance change weekly.

I think anyone with a couple RSRs knew this would happen.  There's far too much downpressure to
"get things moving" to hold to what were actually reasonable standards for remobilization.

It's understandable, but disappointing.

The organizaiton has lost over 30% of its membership in only 14 months, and failed to do anything
in terms of programs, plans, or even housekeeping except for online meetings that were an attempt
at a skeuomorphic representation of normalcy, and which for the most part were "meh" at best, while
patting itself on the back for some random community service work and counting it as a "mission".

The number of golden opportunities missed in regards to rebooting and / or fixing various programs and
1/2-implemented ideas is uncountable - CAP couldn't even remember to renew it's FAA exemption, I mean, seriously?

Songs will be sung, streamers will be attached, ribbons will be distributed, while the car now runs down the road
with the equivalence of 3-1/2 tires (and will probably wind up with only 3 before it's done due to "Wait THIS is CAP? NOPE!" additional attrition).

The way this remob is being "handled" reminds one of those days when Mom & Dad would come home from Montgomery ward's in late April with a new above ground pool.  The kids are so desperate to get in it they will be jumping in while it's still filling and the water is 50°, instead of waiting until everything is setup properly.

Just as on the front side, this is a situation which calls for leadership, not expedience, but the former makes people sad, and the less people you have, the less you can afford to make anyone sad.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on May 20, 2021, 06:05:53 PMAt what point does NHQ forgo the whole Phased remobilization concept altogether?

I think from a practical perspective they already have.

"That Others May Zoom"

JohhnyD

Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2021, 04:46:59 PM
Quote from: JohhnyD on May 20, 2021, 02:07:42 PMHerd immunity is why we are opening up again. This crisis is done.

You might want to look up what that actually means - for example, your state is currently at less
then 40% vaxxed.

Not only is it not "over" this attitude is why Covid will be an ongoing issue for the foreseeable.

Being manageable from a health care perspective doesn't make it "done".
And at Herd Immunity. Go play games with your command structure, we are fine.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2021, 07:07:36 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on May 20, 2021, 06:05:53 PMAt what point does NHQ forgo the whole Phased remobilization concept altogether?

I think from a practical perspective they already have.

So I want to clearly distinguish that I am refer to policy, not practice.

There are a number of wings that have updated their remob plans/guidance which have been communicated out, but not formally attached to the NHQ website. There have been a number of CAP emails distributed, but not reflective on official pages.

12 May 2020:
CAP uses the White House Phase plan: 14 days. Phase 1 expects 15 days of Green, 45 days of Yellow, etc. Phase 2 required at least 14 successful Phase 1 metrics. Aviation precautions in Phase 2 if all members are low risk. Persons must remain 6 feet apart. Phase 3 requires at least 14 days of successful Phase 2 metrics. Masks must be worn during air operations when high risk members are present. 6-foot distancing remains.

But, as the CDC changed its guidance to utilize cohort gathering concepts, as did many states, the CAP policy is technically more restrictive.

And, now, just this week, we're shifting to a new memorandum which contracts the Phase 2 and Phase 3 protocol, but essentially replaces it without saying so. Yet, Wings must still produce Phase 2 and 3 plans.


Really, at this point, I think the case should be that an official declaration should come from NHQ that we are no longer utilizing the phased reopening plan, and, instead, resort to state guidance and/or CDC policy, whichever is the most restrictive.

It's just an opinion, obviously. But it's increasingly difficult to operate under a published CAP plan, emailed CAP guidance which amends the plan that doesn't get communicated to all personnel, and have national-level or state-level government guidance which makes the preceding two outdated.


An item that came to mind recently was a social media post by CAP on official pages where none of the members had face masks on during an encounter with external persons. So I went to the Remob Page just to see that Wing's Remob Plan, and it was very clear: face masks are required. I went to the state guidance: face masks are required. Yet, scuttlebutt had it that there was internal guidance shared within that wing that they didn't need to wear masks anymore because the CDC said so.

Well, here we are debating the "fairness doctrine" again of all things impacting all people in different locations under ever-changing rules with concrete-etched protocols that don't reflect what internal policies are conveying.

So back to my question: Why publish any of it? Why have a plan? Why not just point to the existing guidance from a government source and leave it at that?


I was very much in favor of the phased plan when it first rolled out since it gave that little light of hope and provided some actual guidance. But, as we've seen, guidance changes based on circumstance and qualifiable research, not just national or even local statistics. And right there on the official CAP Remob Website, I'm reading outdated content (pulling it live off the website as I type this and crosschecking it for accuracy).

Heck, one wing just has a bunch of X's for their Phase 2 plan.


Do we maybe overdo it with regulations here when these are policies that were supposed to reflective of external mandates within our AOR?

Eclipse

Quote from: JohhnyD on May 20, 2021, 07:58:18 PMAnd at Herd Immunity. Go play games with your command structure, we are fine.


"That Others May Zoom"

JohhnyD

The vaccinated are not at even close to 50% and yet:

QuoteUS States Start Seeing Days of Zero COVID-19 Deaths https://www.ntd.com/us-states-start-seeing-days-of-zero-covid-19-deaths_615881.html via @news_ntd
That means HERD IMMUNITY is at hand. Thank God!

Capt Thompson

Some States start seeing days with 0 deaths doesn't mean herd immunity is at hand, but you keep living in your fantasy world while my wife goes to work each day at a hospital that has 5 separate floors filled with COVID patients that would love a little of that herd immunity magic dust you're passing out.
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

jeders

Quote from: JohhnyD on May 21, 2021, 03:58:32 AMThe vaccinated are not at even close to 50% and yet:

QuoteUS States Start Seeing Days of Zero COVID-19 Deaths https://www.ntd.com/us-states-start-seeing-days-of-zero-covid-19-deaths_615881.html via @news_ntd
That means HERD IMMUNITY is at hand. Thank God!

Based on that logic, we had herd immunity locally last April, WOW! [/sarcasm]
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

JohhnyD

Quote from: jeders on May 21, 2021, 01:16:48 PM
Quote from: JohhnyD on May 21, 2021, 03:58:32 AMThe vaccinated are not at even close to 50% and yet:

QuoteUS States Start Seeing Days of Zero COVID-19 Deaths https://www.ntd.com/us-states-start-seeing-days-of-zero-covid-19-deaths_615881.html via @news_ntd
That means HERD IMMUNITY is at hand. Thank God!

Based on that logic, we had herd immunity locally last April, WOW! [/sarcasm]
LOL, that is not logic, that is sophistry. One gets to HERD IMMUNITY after the pandemic starts, not before. But nice try and disrespect.

SarDragon

And I think we have overfilled the snark pot.

See ya.

Click.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret