CERT Liaison

[Smithsonia]

Is anyone doing a CERT Liaison CAP Tie-in? It seems to me we are on the same team. We do much of the same training. There should be a greater alliance. There is a new SQTR that is under defined. Locally we aren't doing much in this regards. Any ideas?

[Eclipse]

During missions that would be a Liaison officer (not Agency Liason). 

On a training level, that would be the responsibility of the Unit CC or ESO.

[RedFox24]

Is CERT still alive?  I mean you never hear a word about it anymore, seems in the years sense 9-11 it has died off.  In this area, it has pretty much gone the way of the local CAP squadrons and other quasi military/ES groups, dried up and blown away in the wind. 

[isuhawkeye]

I cant speak for CAP's use of CERT, but as a national initiative it is still going strong.  I recently helped out with a class for our state's capitol complex staff.

As a side note I was never convinced that CAP should get into CERT.  It always seamed beneath your level of traiining.

[Eclipse]

I cant speak for CAP's use of CERT, but as a national initiative it is still going strong.

+1 - plenty of CERT activity in the suburbs of Chicago.

[RiverAux]

It is a good idea (actually a requirement of sorts) for CAP units to keep in contact with all local emergency response groups, including CERT teams.   Nothing may come of those contacts, or you might get a great cooperative relationship going. 

[Smithsonia]

I figure liaison with everybody is good. The trouble is... these guys appear to be real hit and miss, depending upon the jurisdiction.

[isuhawkeye]

Remember that at its core CERT is not an organized deployable team.  The training program teaches individuals to take care of themselves, then their families/co workers until rescuers arrive.  Where some communities establish teams with trailers, and trucks many areas simply allow individuals who have been trained to work together in an emergency.

[Smithsonia]

I've been on 3 separate exercises using CERT, County Rescue, and FEMA. All the command centers were vans, trailers, or buses. CERT appears as a NASCAR sticker on some of the vehicles and not much else. Meaning, I think they took the money, bought the sticker, gave CERT a mention, and ignored the work. BUT, I may be wrong. I am not defending CERT, just trying to figure it out and how to work with it.

[isuhawkeye]

i'm not certain I understand your question.

Here is a link to the cert program wesite, and they have a FAQ section
https://www.citizencorps.gov/cert/

[wuzafuzz]

I think CERT would be a natural fit for our Disaster Relief activities. We don't really have a DR training program but we like to advertise our capabilities for DR.  Currently we take anyone with an ES card or maybe GTM and throw them out there.  Close fit, but not quite.

Additionally, our potential customers know what CERT means.  Few of them know what a 101 card means, if they even know about CAP.  One of my CAP friends routinely attends practice exercises in his day job.  The emergency planners know all about Red Cross, ARES/RACES, and wish there were more CERT types.  When he suggests using CAP they give him a blank look.  He's working to change that, but adding CERT to our bag of tricks could be useful from a marketing standpoint.  Especially in areas that are disaster prone.

[isuhawkeye]

Cert is a recognized certification, but it is very basic.  If CAP wants to be a valuable player in Disaster work it needs to figure out what missions it wants to undertake, and train up on those.  Riding the coat tails of a certification is never the answer.

If CAP wants to do Damage assessment it should train to recognized standards within that discipline (NOT CERT)

If CAP wants to do Disaster communications it should train to a recognized standard, and coordinate with a lead agency (NOT CERT)

If CAP wants to do shelter operations (NOT CERT) it needs to work with lead agencies, and train to those standards

The same is true with mass feeding.

Does this make sense, or am I off base?  Is there a desire for CAP to do medical care, or Light USAR work?  during my time in CAP there didn't seam to be much support for those aspects of Disaster relief work

[RiverAux]

Doing CERT stuff is problematical in regards to CAP regulations.  The general info about disasters is fine, but look at the details of what CERT teams are supposed to do:
1.  Light SAR involving searches of damaged buildings.  Our SAR training is much better than any CERT teams and SAR inside damaged buildings is not exactly easy to do under our regulations.  Are we really going to start sending cadets into half collapsed houses? 

2.  Light fire suppression using fire extinguishers.  CAP does minimal training on this to make sure we can get out of a burning airplane or vehicle, but thats it.  We don't carry extra fire extinguishers for use for other purposes.  Is fire fighting our forte?  No.

3.  Disaster Medical Operations.  Refer to any of a dozen discussions on CAPTalk about how convoluted our rules are in regards to providing medical assistance to non-CAP members. 

I am going to be very interested to see how CAP squares our new CERT ES specialty with all the other CAP regulations that makes it difficult, if not impossible, to really do the sort of operations CERT teams are supposed to do. 

[isuhawkeye]

and remember CERT is intended to be used between the time of the incident and the arrival of "professional" response agencies.  Can you get mission approval in that time?

Dont get me wrong I think its great individual training.

[heliodoc]

Makes sense isuhawkeye

IF CAP wants to do these type of EMA, DHS, and HLS missions then they need to adopt to the lead agency standards.  Just because we are CAP does NOT make us uniquely qualified to do the necessary disaster work.

Its nice we can do aerial disaster assessments and some of those missions.........but it is the long therefter of a disaster that requires training from FEMA and others in the work of PA and IA work.  Some of its basic, very basic.  But it is NOT CAP "standards of training." 

CAP by itself NEEDS to work with coordinating agencies in these areas.  You'll always get the CAPTalkers here that say we can do all that.

CAP and CERT could work together BUT there would be some in CAP that would maybe view these CERT activities as too basic or "not exciting" enough.  But I have been wrong before.  CAP would be best served by working directly with the EMA's and others in disaster rather than trying to be their own island of DR

But again, if CAP wants to play in these arenas, then either train to another agencies training standard, or TRY to develop a CAP DR program......but then CAP would be probably getting with these folks anyway to develop some of theses standards, reinventing the wheel

So, No. isuhawkeye.... you are not off base

[Smithsonia]

I think this is a 2 stage issue with one major problem.

1. Reciprocity - Our 101 card means nothing outside of CAP. Why? Wildland Fire/FEMA/Red Cross, etc. all have nationally recognized crews that work with everybody under all circumstances. We are pretty well trained and don't get "no respect." Our insular attitude hurts us here. We should be out training with everyone and CERT is part of the "everyone." So is FEMA/HSD/National Guard/County Sheriffs/State Emergency -- Why isn't there reciprocity in credentials. Why isn't there a standard. Why aren't we out training to that standard?
This is confounding and dumb as the Radio Inter-operability issue. It is also probably equally complex and difficult to solve.

2. Why are we afraid to train others. Shouldn't we offer courses in Airborne SAR for fellow agencies? Shouldn't we be the standard for Air Searches? Shouldn't we cross train with County, State, and National Air Assets? Again, our insulation seems to miss-serve us long term.

[capn_shad]

+1 to Ed.

We mandate NIMS and ICS training and yet we seem (from what little I have seen) to make little effort to actually be interoperable.  Strikes me as a little strange.  YMMV.

[isuhawkeye]

I think this is a 2 stage issue with one major problem.

1. Reciprocity - Our 101 card means nothing outside of CAP. Why? Wildland Fire/FEMA/Red Cross, etc. all have nationally recognized crews that work with everybody under all circumstances. We are pretty well trained and don't get "no respect." Our insular attitude hurts us here. We should be out training with everyone and CERT is part of the "everyone." So is FEMA/HSD/National Guard/County Sheriffs/State Emergency -- Why isn't there reciprocity in credentials. Why isn't there a standard. Why aren't we out training to that standard?
This is confounding and dumb as the Radio Inter-operability issue. It is also probably equally complex and difficult to solve.

2. Why are we afraid to train others. Shouldn't we offer courses in Airborne SAR for fellow agencies? Shouldn't we be the standard for Air Searches? Shouldn't we cross train with County, State, and National Air Assets? Again, our insulation seems to miss-serve us long term.

This may be thread drift, and if we need to split this discussion feel free. 

Reciprocity of credentials is a national problem that is still a long way from being addressed.  At its core the issue reverts back to individual states.  Each state and local entity adopts its own standards, and expectations for responders. 

Most credentials that we look to are issued by states.  Some will point to the national registry of EMT's, and say that they are a national certifying entity.  The truth is that the NREMT is not a certifying body.  They are a testing firm that many states have adopted. 

The fire service is also splintered.  With states accepting either (Or Both) IFSTA or Pro Board credentials. 

SAR and Rescue disciplines trace their certification requirements back to regulatory requirements set forth by NFPA, OSHA, and other standards setting organizations.  Many fire based rescue services are self credentialed.

In short CAP will not receive a standard reciprocity until it CAP either adapts to local certification requirements, or publicly holds its training standards up against one of the standard setting organizations.

The simple truth is that CAP doesn't need reciprocity for its missions.  Instead it needs professional volunteers who can speak intelligently on its mission, capabilities, and training. 

[heliodoc]

CAP ought to be or TRY, in itself, to be NATIONALLY QUALIFIED rather than just CAP.

CAP offering courses to others?  Wouldn't that involve all those CAP legal types going awry just to cover ORM and "safety issues?"

I would hope that the HR 1178 study REALLY goes in to depth and shows how CAP is not as force multiplier as we think we are since we are not really practicing NIMS and ICS as we ought to be.  VFD's and LE has HAD to change according NIMS and ICS standards, so where is CAP as a force multiplier, huh?

I would say that SO and other Aviation agencies have their own SAR training.  BUT where has CAP been all these years as a force multiplier for them?

[RiverAux]

CERT is part of the "everyone.

Yes, many other agencies know what it means, but as far as our primary ES response role, search and rescue, CERT is a much lesser credential.  Sure, we should work with them just like we should work with the county sheriff.

Any reluctance to use CAP will not be found in worries about our qualifications to do the job.  It doesn't take long to show someone what our folks have to do. 

Reluctance to use CAP will happen either because of some stupid local incident in the past, the overall reluctance of many paid professionals to work with volunteers of any kind, and the fact that many of our ground SAR personnel are kids. 

[wuzafuzz]

Any reluctance to use CAP will not be found in worries about our qualifications to do the job.  It doesn't take long to show someone what our folks have to do. 

I think it goes to marketing as I mentioned earlier.  We can brag about capabilities all day long, but until we use terms other folks understand they will simply go with what they already know.

Perhaps the better question, as someone mentioned earlier, is whether we should build a recognizable DR training program within CAP.  Absent that, perhaps we shouldn't be playing in that arena.  I'm surprised ORM allows us to do DR work when we don't specifically train our members for it.  There are unique hazards to consider after or during most disasters.

So, it doesn't have to be CERT but there should be something.  CERT just has the advantage of already being out there and recognized on our 101 cards.  "CAP CERT" could be what ever we want it to be, within reason.

[Smithsonia]

Marketing is just part of the issue. Marketing being a promise.

By actually training with everyone, we should get the credit we deserve. By picking a certain expertise, like Air Search and Ground Team Coordination (or perhaps aerial reconn and Photography) and owning that portfolio as the national certifying organization we get credibility. BUT, there are so many goofy CAP rules to set up cross training courses and exercises. The cross training is the "promise" performed. Cross training is the promise executed.

I realize that most of these rules have to do with CAP insurance and Cadet Protection... about those rules I am not complaining. However, when there are adults/seniors working as trainers or students -- in a recognized and valuable training educational opportunity -- or as teacher in the same thing -- there should be straightforward way to push it up the command chain, get a sign off, and move it along. In this issue CERT is not the specific problem. It is just one of the places in which I have encountered the problem. The problem seems to be (ours) CAP's.

[RiverAux]

Just what rules inhibit us from training with other organizations?  I've personally instigated more than a few cross agency exercises. 

[heliodoc]

Those "unwritten rules" that some folks in CAP think is the Bible and their world.

After a 30 year hiatus from CAP I am finding out about ALL those LAME unwritten rules that have no place in interagency operations

Only those folks that some aversion to risk or protecting their turf...


CAP is utterly amazing at times, even 30 years later.  I too have involved cross agency operations with the ARNG with absolutely no help from the Wing I am in......they generally do not seem interested, but give it a couple of years, I probably will hear it was "their idea."

[RADIOMAN015]

Those "unwritten rules" that some folks in CAP think is the Bible and their world.

Only those folks that some aversion to risk or protecting their turf...

CAP is utterly amazing at times, even 30 years later.  I too have involved cross agency operations with the ARNG with absolutely no help from the Wing I am in......they generally do not seem interested, but give it a couple of years, I probably will hear it was "their idea."

Be careful about anything to do with CERT, because in some communities CERT members were asked to sign a waiver of liability, which meant IF they got hurt while performing their assigned duties, the volunteer would end up paying their own medical and not the community.  Bad policy & is the reason I didn't join our local community team.  All those politicians and even the guy (community fire chief) who is running the program get benefits if they get hurt.     

So I tend to agree with CAP regulations on MOA's, before you jump in with ANY assistance to CERT, find out who is going to pay if someone gets hurt/diabled or something else goes wrong.

RM

[wuzafuzz]

Be careful about anything to do with CERT, because in some communities CERT members were asked to sign a waiver of liability, which meant IF they got hurt while performing their assigned duties, the volunteer would end up paying their own medical and not the community.  Bad policy & is the reason I didn't join our local community team.  All those politicians and even the guy (community fire chief) who is running the program get benefits if they get hurt.     

So I tend to agree with CAP regulations on MOA's, before you jump in with ANY assistance to CERT, find out who is going to pay if someone gets hurt/diabled or something else goes wrong.

RM

Wow...

I understand that waiver if CERT groups are acting autonomously, but if they are tasked by a government entity it's a shame to let them twist in the wind if injured or sued.

As long as we are acting as CAP members I would hope we would be covered by CAP.

[KyCAP]

CAP ought to be or TRY, in itself, to be NATIONALLY QUALIFIED rather than just CAP.

CAP offering courses to others?  Wouldn't that involve all those CAP legal types going awry just to cover ORM and "safety issues?"

I would hope that the HR 1178 study REALLY goes in to depth and shows how CAP is not as force multiplier as we think we are since we are not really practicing NIMS and ICS as we ought to be.  VFD's and LE has HAD to change according NIMS and ICS standards, so where is CAP as a force multiplier, huh?

I would say that SO and other Aviation agencies have their own SAR training.  BUT where has CAP been all these years as a force multiplier for them?

In our wing we are well down the path of interagency NIMS compliance.   During the Feb Ice Storm, I received requests from the Director of Emergency Management of Kentucky and we passed the request to the NOC for "experienced" Section Chiefs and Incident Commanders that could deploy for 3 days.   The NOC received ZERO responses to their query in the border wings according to the NOC back in Februrary.   I think that it speaks pretty highly when the state agency asks us to replace their county emergency managers with our support as staff replenishment.   Sounds like it is differnent across the wings.

[heliodoc]

Is it quite possible some of these communities have not sent people to the necessary training due to budgets.

I do know of a few States that combine or draw off of wildland fire and others who do or already served in these positions.

Its good to see some of CAP in the fray.  But the training is Wing dependent and yes, its speaks highly, but , yet not consistent and that is what I meant by the HR 1178 study...

The consistency and quality in CAP is NOT consistent and aimed  at the true DHS HLS missions as of yet

Yes  I am sure it is different across Wings

[Eclipse]

In our wing we are well down the path of interagency NIMS compliance.   During the Feb Ice Storm, I received requests from the Director of Emergency Management of Kentucky and we passed the request to the NOC for "experienced" Section Chiefs and Incident Commanders that could deploy for 3 days.   The NOC received ZERO responses to their query in the border wings according to the NOC back in Februrary.   I think that it speaks pretty highly when the state agency asks us to replace their county emergency managers with our support as staff replenishment.   Sounds like it is differnent across the wings.

Are you saying you received no support from your neighboring wings?

[RedFox24]

CAP ought to be or TRY, in itself, to be NATIONALLY QUALIFIED rather than just CAP.

CAP offering courses to others?  Wouldn't that involve all those CAP legal types going awry just to cover ORM and "safety issues?"

I would hope that the HR 1178 study REALLY goes in to depth and shows how CAP is not as force multiplier as we think we are since we are not really practicing NIMS and ICS as we ought to be.  VFD's and LE has HAD to change according NIMS and ICS standards, so where is CAP as a force multiplier, huh?

I would say that SO and other Aviation agencies have their own SAR training.  BUT where has CAP been all these years as a force multiplier for them?

In our wing we are well down the path of interagency NIMS compliance.   During the Feb Ice Storm, I received requests from the Director of Emergency Management of Kentucky and we passed the request to the NOC for "experienced" Section Chiefs and Incident Commanders that could deploy for 3 days.   The NOC received ZERO responses to their query in the border wings according to the NOC back in Februrary.   I think that it speaks pretty highly when the state agency asks us to replace their county emergency managers with our support as staff replenishment.   Sounds like it is differnent across the wings.

As someone who monitored HAM, EMA, State, Local and Federal Agencies as well as CAP comms channels during the Feb Ice Storm you reference, I didn't hear many KYCAP call signs coming out of the western part of KY.  I did hear a lot of RedFox and RedFire call signs.................And a whole bunch of EMA/RACES/ARES calls as well. 

So while it pains me to agree with Eclipse , I will ask with him, are you saying you didn't receive any help from neighboring wings?

[KyCAP]

No that is NOT what I am saying.

As the IC of the Ice Quake for the first 48 hours shifting to the Agency Liasion in the State EOC passing the taskings that were handled and one of the authors of the AAR for that I can assure you that I completely aware of the air ops support from OTHER wings. 

To be clear - There was a tasking request SPECIFICALLY for experienced Operations Section Chiefs and Incident Commanders that was passed to the NOC requesting support from surrounding wings for a 3 day deployment.  There were NO TAKERS as sourced by the NOC.

[KyCAP]

I didn't hear many KYCAP call signs coming out of the western part of KY. 

And you wouldn't have because our mission for the guard we do not use the highbird nor KYCAP call signs for our role in that mission in Kentucky.  We also typically do not use CAP frequencies for that mission unless coordinating with ground assets.  So, your noticeable silence isn't unusual.

[RADIOMAN015]

No that is NOT what I am saying.


To be clear - There was a tasking request SPECIFICALLY for experienced Operations Section Chiefs and Incident Commanders that was passed to the NOC requesting support from surrounding wings for a 3 day deployment.  There were NO TAKERS as sourced by the NOC.

Lets face it that is REALITY of anything that may resemble being on the ground in a disaster area far away from ones homes.   I think the NHQ staff & volunteer leaders at that level really have a "fantasy" about how many members are actually going to be available and are going to show up after any disaster.   Some wings even have problems finding IC for "simple" mission right in the state

Even at the local/state level, the paid professional emergency planning staffs are very cautious about depending upon volunteers right from the area (and even close by) including CERT, Medical Reserve Corps, amateur radio (RACES/ARES) volunteers.  IF as a matter of government policy you won't pay someone (or at least feed & house them), won't cover them medically, or pay disability if they get hurt, don't expect too much    
RM

[heliodoc]

Correct Radioman

I think UNTIL that HR1178 study gets done to support HLS DHS missions....it is just a fantasy..

As of tonite...no motion on it.

Until then CAP had just do what it does best and HOPE for the best on the HLS stuff

Aerial imaging/ SDIS... fine  Some IA PA work, fine also

But working the hot zone with LE, FIRE, SWAT and selling the Congress like we could get into that arena is a pure stretch. 

If CAP wants to play ....they ought to start thinking on getting ahead of those AAR's that they have on the other thread.  THOSE ARE REQUIREMENTS AFTER EACH MAJOR EXERCISE and to say CAP doesn't have to do it is more CAP bunk.  CAP would do well just get ahead of that game without biaaaatching about it and get it done and have an ongoing file to correct their already number of mistakes and by cracky, everyone makes 'em.  CAP does not hold the corner on perfection yet.

SO CAP you want more missions.... start doing what is necessary as far as paperwork and exercises go...then this stuff will not be a surprise when the REAL dictums come down and the REAL training requirements need to be met........ no just CAP's!!

[RedFox24]

I didn’t hear many KYCAP call signs coming out of the western part of KY. 

And you wouldn't have because our mission for the guard we do not use the highbird nor KYCAP call signs for our role in that mission in Kentucky.  We also typically do not use CAP frequencies for that mission unless coordinating with ground assets.  So, your noticeable silence isn't unusual.

And I thought it was because you dont have any units in the west part of the state.

[KyCAP]

[
And I thought it was because you dont have any units in the west part of the state.

I think that Paducah Composite, Fulton, Bowling Green (x2), Fort Campbell would disagree with that.    Not to mention that conventional CAP radios and the EMA radio systems were INOP from the fact that 700,000 people were without power.  The members from that end of the state for the most part were in the disaster.

[KyCAP]

Lets face it that is REALITY of anything that may resemble being on the ground in a disaster area far away from ones homes.   I think the NHQ staff & volunteer leaders at that level really have a "fantasy" about how many members are actually going to be available and are going to show up after any disaster.   Some wings even have problems finding IC for "simple" mission right in the state

Even at the local/state level, the paid professional emergency planning staffs are very cautious about depending upon volunteers right from the area (and even close by) including CERT, Medical Reserve Corps, amateur radio (RACES/ARES) volunteers.  IF as a matter of government policy you won't pay someone (or at least feed & house them), won't cover them medically, or pay disability if they get hurt, don't expect too much    
RM

There were PLENTY of people from other wings in OTHER roles that stayed in Kentucky for aircraft missions and air operations.   I am NOT saying that no one would come.  We had dozens of "taskings" and flew tons of sorties for damage assesment and imagery from SEVERAL wings for almost a week.

When we were asked to specifically supply staff to supply the EMA IC's relief, we did not have it.   Maybe we had those people from other wings already deployed... We didn't have the folks to spare here in Kentucky either.   I didn't have power for a week and I started the mission with the NOC and 1st AF. 

I don't think that it would be fair to the other wings that participated with the "blanket" statement that you all are making.   There WERE people there for days on end, just none that replied to the query for this specific tasking is all that I was trying to say.

[KyCAP]

http://www.capvolunteernow.com/media/cms/Volunteer_Mar_Apr_Final_Lores_DA0E33EEADD32.pdf
Page 17 is where it starts..

91 air sorties (200 hobbs hours)
52 ground sorties
9600 man hours roughly

Over 100 CAP members (16 Cadets)
18 aircraft

Could not have been done without other wing support from our Region..

[Eclipse]

Nice save.   

[RiverAux]

Although I consider myself pretty experienced in mission staff work, even I would have hestiated to step in at such a high level role for another agency in a different state.  Heck, it would take me 3 days just to learn where the bathroom is. 

Call me in to run a CAP mission, sure, but I'm not sure that having the generic ICS training is really enough to fully take over a lead position like that. 

[KyCAP]

Although I consider myself pretty experienced in mission staff work, even I would have hestiated to step in at such a high level role for another agency in a different state.  Heck, it would take me 3 days just to learn where the bathroom is. 

Call me in to run a CAP mission, sure, but I'm not sure that having the generic ICS training is really enough to fully take over a lead position like that.

This is why that when I passed the request to the NOC we were very specific in "experienced" staff.   I am sure that there are SOME members who ARE County Emergency Managers in other wings who would have no problems with filling the role.

[RiverAux]

I wouldn't be sure of that at all.  I know that in my wing none of our CAP mission staff (and we have a pretty good group) have any non-CAP civilian ES experience at that level and I can only think of a few other members of the Wing who would even come close. 

Bringing this back closer to the actual topic, working with CERT teams and the other civilian ES agencies in joint exercises could eventually give some CAP members this sort of experience. 

[Smithsonia]

RiverAux;
You are quite right. We are a little like the mute man who know only sign language trying to talk to the blind man who know only Braille. Neither of us are fools. Neither us are stupid. There is a way each can communicate with the other, but we must figure out the right way. We must -- the Air Force tells us so. And, so we must begin now to work together.