CERT Liaison

[Smithsonia]

Is anyone doing a CERT Liaison CAP Tie-in? It seems to me we are on the same team. We do much of the same training. There should be a greater alliance. There is a new SQTR that is under defined. Locally we aren't doing much in this regards. Any ideas?

[Eclipse]

During missions that would be a Liaison officer (not Agency Liason). 

On a training level, that would be the responsibility of the Unit CC or ESO.

[RedFox24]

Is CERT still alive?  I mean you never hear a word about it anymore, seems in the years sense 9-11 it has died off.  In this area, it has pretty much gone the way of the local CAP squadrons and other quasi military/ES groups, dried up and blown away in the wind. 

[isuhawkeye]

I cant speak for CAP's use of CERT, but as a national initiative it is still going strong.  I recently helped out with a class for our state's capitol complex staff.

As a side note I was never convinced that CAP should get into CERT.  It always seamed beneath your level of traiining.

[Eclipse]

I cant speak for CAP's use of CERT, but as a national initiative it is still going strong.

+1 - plenty of CERT activity in the suburbs of Chicago.

[RiverAux]

It is a good idea (actually a requirement of sorts) for CAP units to keep in contact with all local emergency response groups, including CERT teams.   Nothing may come of those contacts, or you might get a great cooperative relationship going. 

[Smithsonia]

I figure liaison with everybody is good. The trouble is... these guys appear to be real hit and miss, depending upon the jurisdiction.

[isuhawkeye]

Remember that at its core CERT is not an organized deployable team.  The training program teaches individuals to take care of themselves, then their families/co workers until rescuers arrive.  Where some communities establish teams with trailers, and trucks many areas simply allow individuals who have been trained to work together in an emergency.

[Smithsonia]

I've been on 3 separate exercises using CERT, County Rescue, and FEMA. All the command centers were vans, trailers, or buses. CERT appears as a NASCAR sticker on some of the vehicles and not much else. Meaning, I think they took the money, bought the sticker, gave CERT a mention, and ignored the work. BUT, I may be wrong. I am not defending CERT, just trying to figure it out and how to work with it.

[isuhawkeye]

i'm not certain I understand your question.

Here is a link to the cert program wesite, and they have a FAQ section
https://www.citizencorps.gov/cert/

[wuzafuzz]

I think CERT would be a natural fit for our Disaster Relief activities. We don't really have a DR training program but we like to advertise our capabilities for DR.  Currently we take anyone with an ES card or maybe GTM and throw them out there.  Close fit, but not quite.

Additionally, our potential customers know what CERT means.  Few of them know what a 101 card means, if they even know about CAP.  One of my CAP friends routinely attends practice exercises in his day job.  The emergency planners know all about Red Cross, ARES/RACES, and wish there were more CERT types.  When he suggests using CAP they give him a blank look.  He's working to change that, but adding CERT to our bag of tricks could be useful from a marketing standpoint.  Especially in areas that are disaster prone.

[isuhawkeye]

Cert is a recognized certification, but it is very basic.  If CAP wants to be a valuable player in Disaster work it needs to figure out what missions it wants to undertake, and train up on those.  Riding the coat tails of a certification is never the answer.

If CAP wants to do Damage assessment it should train to recognized standards within that discipline (NOT CERT)

If CAP wants to do Disaster communications it should train to a recognized standard, and coordinate with a lead agency (NOT CERT)

If CAP wants to do shelter operations (NOT CERT) it needs to work with lead agencies, and train to those standards

The same is true with mass feeding.

Does this make sense, or am I off base?  Is there a desire for CAP to do medical care, or Light USAR work?  during my time in CAP there didn't seam to be much support for those aspects of Disaster relief work

[RiverAux]

Doing CERT stuff is problematical in regards to CAP regulations.  The general info about disasters is fine, but look at the details of what CERT teams are supposed to do:
1.  Light SAR involving searches of damaged buildings.  Our SAR training is much better than any CERT teams and SAR inside damaged buildings is not exactly easy to do under our regulations.  Are we really going to start sending cadets into half collapsed houses? 

2.  Light fire suppression using fire extinguishers.  CAP does minimal training on this to make sure we can get out of a burning airplane or vehicle, but thats it.  We don't carry extra fire extinguishers for use for other purposes.  Is fire fighting our forte?  No.

3.  Disaster Medical Operations.  Refer to any of a dozen discussions on CAPTalk about how convoluted our rules are in regards to providing medical assistance to non-CAP members. 

I am going to be very interested to see how CAP squares our new CERT ES specialty with all the other CAP regulations that makes it difficult, if not impossible, to really do the sort of operations CERT teams are supposed to do. 

[isuhawkeye]

and remember CERT is intended to be used between the time of the incident and the arrival of "professional" response agencies.  Can you get mission approval in that time?

Dont get me wrong I think its great individual training.

[heliodoc]

Makes sense isuhawkeye

IF CAP wants to do these type of EMA, DHS, and HLS missions then they need to adopt to the lead agency standards.  Just because we are CAP does NOT make us uniquely qualified to do the necessary disaster work.

Its nice we can do aerial disaster assessments and some of those missions.........but it is the long therefter of a disaster that requires training from FEMA and others in the work of PA and IA work.  Some of its basic, very basic.  But it is NOT CAP "standards of training." 

CAP by itself NEEDS to work with coordinating agencies in these areas.  You'll always get the CAPTalkers here that say we can do all that.

CAP and CERT could work together BUT there would be some in CAP that would maybe view these CERT activities as too basic or "not exciting" enough.  But I have been wrong before.  CAP would be best served by working directly with the EMA's and others in disaster rather than trying to be their own island of DR

But again, if CAP wants to play in these arenas, then either train to another agencies training standard, or TRY to develop a CAP DR program......but then CAP would be probably getting with these folks anyway to develop some of theses standards, reinventing the wheel

So, No. isuhawkeye.... you are not off base

[Smithsonia]

I think this is a 2 stage issue with one major problem.

1. Reciprocity - Our 101 card means nothing outside of CAP. Why? Wildland Fire/FEMA/Red Cross, etc. all have nationally recognized crews that work with everybody under all circumstances. We are pretty well trained and don't get "no respect." Our insular attitude hurts us here. We should be out training with everyone and CERT is part of the "everyone." So is FEMA/HSD/National Guard/County Sheriffs/State Emergency -- Why isn't there reciprocity in credentials. Why isn't there a standard. Why aren't we out training to that standard?
This is confounding and dumb as the Radio Inter-operability issue. It is also probably equally complex and difficult to solve.

2. Why are we afraid to train others. Shouldn't we offer courses in Airborne SAR for fellow agencies? Shouldn't we be the standard for Air Searches? Shouldn't we cross train with County, State, and National Air Assets? Again, our insulation seems to miss-serve us long term.

[capn_shad]

+1 to Ed.

We mandate NIMS and ICS training and yet we seem (from what little I have seen) to make little effort to actually be interoperable.  Strikes me as a little strange.  YMMV.

[isuhawkeye]

I think this is a 2 stage issue with one major problem.

1. Reciprocity - Our 101 card means nothing outside of CAP. Why? Wildland Fire/FEMA/Red Cross, etc. all have nationally recognized crews that work with everybody under all circumstances. We are pretty well trained and don't get "no respect." Our insular attitude hurts us here. We should be out training with everyone and CERT is part of the "everyone." So is FEMA/HSD/National Guard/County Sheriffs/State Emergency -- Why isn't there reciprocity in credentials. Why isn't there a standard. Why aren't we out training to that standard?
This is confounding and dumb as the Radio Inter-operability issue. It is also probably equally complex and difficult to solve.

2. Why are we afraid to train others. Shouldn't we offer courses in Airborne SAR for fellow agencies? Shouldn't we be the standard for Air Searches? Shouldn't we cross train with County, State, and National Air Assets? Again, our insulation seems to miss-serve us long term.

This may be thread drift, and if we need to split this discussion feel free. 

Reciprocity of credentials is a national problem that is still a long way from being addressed.  At its core the issue reverts back to individual states.  Each state and local entity adopts its own standards, and expectations for responders. 

Most credentials that we look to are issued by states.  Some will point to the national registry of EMT's, and say that they are a national certifying entity.  The truth is that the NREMT is not a certifying body.  They are a testing firm that many states have adopted. 

The fire service is also splintered.  With states accepting either (Or Both) IFSTA or Pro Board credentials. 

SAR and Rescue disciplines trace their certification requirements back to regulatory requirements set forth by NFPA, OSHA, and other standards setting organizations.  Many fire based rescue services are self credentialed.

In short CAP will not receive a standard reciprocity until it CAP either adapts to local certification requirements, or publicly holds its training standards up against one of the standard setting organizations.

The simple truth is that CAP doesn't need reciprocity for its missions.  Instead it needs professional volunteers who can speak intelligently on its mission, capabilities, and training. 

[heliodoc]

CAP ought to be or TRY, in itself, to be NATIONALLY QUALIFIED rather than just CAP.

CAP offering courses to others?  Wouldn't that involve all those CAP legal types going awry just to cover ORM and "safety issues?"

I would hope that the HR 1178 study REALLY goes in to depth and shows how CAP is not as force multiplier as we think we are since we are not really practicing NIMS and ICS as we ought to be.  VFD's and LE has HAD to change according NIMS and ICS standards, so where is CAP as a force multiplier, huh?

I would say that SO and other Aviation agencies have their own SAR training.  BUT where has CAP been all these years as a force multiplier for them?

[RiverAux]

CERT is part of the "everyone.

Yes, many other agencies know what it means, but as far as our primary ES response role, search and rescue, CERT is a much lesser credential.  Sure, we should work with them just like we should work with the county sheriff.

Any reluctance to use CAP will not be found in worries about our qualifications to do the job.  It doesn't take long to show someone what our folks have to do. 

Reluctance to use CAP will happen either because of some stupid local incident in the past, the overall reluctance of many paid professionals to work with volunteers of any kind, and the fact that many of our ground SAR personnel are kids.