Large Van Passenger Restrictions

[floridacyclist]

180s and 185s have them as well...but I have a better chance of finding good quality oceanfront property in downtown Albuquerque. I almost got a 172 straightback from a junkyard in Wimauma, but he scrapped it out before I could get it. We have our 150 now with boat trailer axle stubs and wheels in place of the stock lightweight aluminum hardware, but it doesn't hold much....it sure gets the second looks driving down the highway though, and I have yet to see a cadet or target group (we set up mock SAR scenes as a PR event) not excited about finding that in the woods with victims hanging out of it.

[RiverAux]

Tire preassure is about the only thing the AF guys care about when they make inspections of our vehicles.  We had it checked and set at an actual tire store one time and then got gigged for it by the AF the next day based on their cheapo pressure tester. 

[arajca]

Don't feel bad. I set mine at the shop where I work then had to drive 150+ miles to the inspection and decend about 2000ft. I wonder why my tire pressure was low.

The AF also cares about the first aid kit and any expired items in it. I got four gigs for that - one for each expired item.

[mikeylikey]

Don't feel bad. I set mine at the shop where I work then had to drive 150+ miles to the inspection and decend about 2000ft. I wonder why my tire pressure was low.

The AF also cares about the first aid kit and any expired items in it. I got four gigs for that - one for each expired item.

That should only have been one gig.  One gig for the entire first aid kit.  You should have fought that. 

[SarDragon]

Don't feel bad. I set mine at the shop where I work then had to drive 150+ miles to the inspection and decend about 2000ft. I wonder why my tire pressure was low.

The AF also cares about the first aid kit and any expired items in it. I got four gigs for that - one for each expired item.

Really? Let's look at the variables.

Most tire gages are ±4 % of indicated value, or 2 psi, whichever is greater. At an arbitrary 40 psi, 4% gives ±1.6 psi, so the tolerance is 2 psi.

Pressure changes about 1 psi for every 2000 ft altitude change, so your tire pressure would be 1 psi lower.

Driving 150 miles will heat the tires enough to raise the pressure about 4 psi (typical).

End result - the tire pressure might be higher than the starting value. Since there is as much uncertainty in the measurement as there is change in pressure, it's all a wash.

YMMV.

[mynetdude]

Don't feel bad. I set mine at the shop where I work then had to drive 150+ miles to the inspection and decend about 2000ft. I wonder why my tire pressure was low.

The AF also cares about the first aid kit and any expired items in it. I got four gigs for that - one for each expired item.

Really? Let's look at the variables.

Most tire gages are ±4 % of indicated value, or 2 psi, whichever is greater. At an arbitrary 40 psi, 4% gives ±1.6 psi, so the tolerance is 2 psi.

Pressure changes about 1 psi for every 2000 ft altitude change, so your tire pressure would be 1 psi lower.

Driving 150 miles will heat the tires enough to raise the pressure about 4 psi (typical).

End result - the tire pressure might be higher than the starting value. Since there is as much uncertainty in the measurement as there is change in pressure, it's all a wash.

YMMV.

which is why they say to never ever fill your tires to max capacity to allow room for heated/expanded air... remember heat=air expands.  If there isn't enough room, it goes boom.

[SarDragon]

Don't feel bad. I set mine at the shop where I work then had to drive 150+ miles to the inspection and decend about 2000ft. I wonder why my tire pressure was low.

The AF also cares about the first aid kit and any expired items in it. I got four gigs for that - one for each expired item.

Really? Let's look at the variables.

Most tire gages are ±4 % of indicated value, or 2 psi, whichever is greater. At an arbitrary 40 psi, 4% gives ±1.6 psi, so the tolerance is 2 psi.

Pressure changes about 1 psi for every 2000 ft altitude change, so your tire pressure would be 1 psi lower.

Driving 150 miles will heat the tires enough to raise the pressure about 4 psi (typical).

End result - the tire pressure might be higher than the starting value. Since there is as much uncertainty in the measurement as there is change in pressure, it's all a wash.

YMMV.

which is why they say to never ever fill your tires to max capacity to allow room for heated/expanded air... remember heat=air expands.  If there isn't enough room, it goes boom.

Approaching urban myth. Yes, the pressure will increase as a tire gets hotter, but the amount of increase is nowhere near enough to burst the tire.

An increase in temperature from 0°F to 212°F (highly unlikely) on a tire initially inflated to 40 psi only causes an 18 psi increase in pressure, hardly enough to cause failure.

[SJFedor]

Here in TN, we've removed the back seat out of the 15pax vans, which makes them 12pax. I believe the state here calls anything 15 or greater persons = bus. So, we have the back seat out (which is nice, gives more room for gear!) but we still require persons to hold a special 15pax endorsement on their CAP DL, included in that is a 10 minute walk around to understand why it's bigger and how it drives differently.

Our Wing also requires that spotters are used whenever a 15pax van is backed up.

[mikeylikey]

Here in TN, we've removed the back seat out of the 15pax vans, which makes them 12pax. I believe the state here calls anything 15 or greater persons = bus. So, we have the back seat out (which is nice, gives more room for gear!) but we still require persons to hold a special 15pax endorsement on their CAP DL, included in that is a 10 minute walk around to understand why it's bigger and how it drives differently.

Our Wing also requires that spotters are used whenever a 15pax van is backed up.

Those are great practices!  However, isn't removing the seats from vans forbidden in the regs?  Where do you store your rear seats?  Me, I would put it in the living room, but then again, I am somewhat lacking on furniture and need a sofa.

[SSgt Rudin]

Here in TN, we've removed the back seat out of the 15pax vans, which makes them 12pax. I believe the state here calls anything 15 or greater persons = bus. So, we have the back seat out (which is nice, gives more room for gear!) but we still require persons to hold a special 15pax endorsement on their CAP DL, included in that is a 10 minute walk around to understand why it's bigger and how it drives differently.

Our Wing also requires that spotters are used whenever a 15pax van is backed up.

Those are great practices!  However, isn't removing the seats from vans forbidden in the regs?  Where do you store your rear seats?  Me, I would put it in the living room, but then again, I am somewhat lacking on furniture and need a sofa.

I do believe that in my squadron's van the rear two seats are designed to come out with out removing any nuts/bolts, like the 3rd row in a lot of SUV's. When we do take them out they either go in our storage unit or someone's garage if it is short term. I know FLWG has a supplement stating that no nut/bolt/screw will be added with out permission from wing transportation, nothing about removing stuff. 

[SJFedor]

Here in TN, we've removed the back seat out of the 15pax vans, which makes them 12pax. I believe the state here calls anything 15 or greater persons = bus. So, we have the back seat out (which is nice, gives more room for gear!) but we still require persons to hold a special 15pax endorsement on their CAP DL, included in that is a 10 minute walk around to understand why it's bigger and how it drives differently.

Our Wing also requires that spotters are used whenever a 15pax van is backed up.

Those are great practices!  However, isn't removing the seats from vans forbidden in the regs?  Where do you store your rear seats?  Me, I would put it in the living room, but then again, I am somewhat lacking on furniture and need a sofa.

Dunno. The rear seat was removed prior to delivery, so I imagine the Wing/LG has the seats stored somewhere.

Honestly, I've driven a CAP van a total of 1 time, and don't plan to drive them in the future. Being a pilot makes me cool like that 

[capchiro]

Our Church did a thorough study on the 15 Pax rollover issue last year and the cheapest, easiest, and simplist solution would be to put duelie conversions on the back.  I think there are some companies that would do it for around $2,000-$2,500 total.  I think that would be a good idea and relieve some liability and insure some safety. 

[afgeo4]

I believe NYWG removed all rear seats from their 15 pax vans as well. I was told it was due to the overloading factor. How that's possible I don't know because now the vans get stuffed full of gear in the back which is actually heavier than a 3 cadets.

I know the latest purchases here have been 10pax Chevy Express vans and our current group van is a 10pax Dodge Ram, so I don't deal with these issues much.

[NJMEDIC]

I have driven this chassis for years as a van ambulance and yes you must be careful in turns even when I drive to an emergency I use due caution.

I believe that Federal DOT requires a CDL for 15 pax vehicles for professional IE for hire drivers, our squadron van is a 12 pax from delivery. Also New Jersey does not require CDL Driver Lic. for volunteers, IE firefighter, Paid firefighter and fire app. repair mechanics must have the CDL.

[fireplug]

ATTN: LG/T's. Does your wing have a policy of restricting pax in 12- and 15-passenger vans to only 10 people, including the driver? Thanks.

Thanks to all who have weighed in on this subject. I now have my answer.
I've been told by my Wing CC that the NHQ/SE, Col Letteer, will be issuing instructions limiting van capacity to 12, 11 pax and a driver. Further, current 15-pax vans are to have their rear seats removed. and no roof rack storage.
This info is current as of Thursday, 6 March.

[mikeylikey]

^ Then I have to question why money was spent on 15PAX vans to begin with.  Apparently, there was never a huge safety issue before now, I wonder why the issues now?

[RiverAux]

Well, I'm fairly sure that the safety issues weren't raised until the last few years while we've been buying vans of those sizes for quite some time. 

It will be interesting to see what we get for the next generation of general purpose CAP vehicles. 

[FW]

^ Then I have to question why money was spent on 15PAX vans to begin with.  Apparently, there was never a huge safety issue before now, I wonder why the issues now?

There has been a large increase in van accidents this year. 

[badger bob]

Last years CAP van purchase was extended body vans without the rear seat from the factory (except Texas)  giving a 12 passenger configuration (driver plus 11) with room behind the rear seat.

Vans 2004 and newer have anti-rollover program built in to their electronic controls for engines and anti-lock brakes.

Older model 15 passenger Ford Vans and Dodge vans can be more squirrelly due to the rear overhang( body area behind the rear axle) if they are loaded improperly or used fro towing large trailers

[afgeo4]

Anyone know from experience how the Sprinter vans fair in such conditions? They look awful big and tall in the high top configuration.