Large Van Passenger Restrictions

[fireplug]

ATTN: LG/T's. Does your wing have a policy of restricting pax in 12- and 15-passenger vans to only 10 people, including the driver? Thanks.

[mikeylikey]

If it can carry 12 or 15 passangers......why wouldn't you carry 12 or 15 passangers?

The weight difference between ten  100 pound cadets and twelve 100 pound cadets is 200 pounds.  The rollover probability of adding 200 pounds is null. 

Redistributing the weight inside the van before driving will help with roll-over more than limiting passangers. 

Why did you ask this question?  Does your Wing have a Safety Officer that does not even have a CAP License, never been in a CAP van, but yet makes safety decisions without any supporting info too?

[arajca]

Not to my knowledge and my unit has a 15-pax van. The only times we don't carry a full load is:
1. there isn't a full load.
or
2. there is too much gear for a full load.

[mynetdude]

concerning gear, IMHO we should be utilizing towable covered box trailers to haul gear.  Sorry, but I'm all for using maximized space rather than having to tell a cadet or two or three that they can't go because we have too much gear.  Lucky for us, we have a 2nd van that is much smaller, we've used that van to haul the gear.

I have in the past offered to haul gear only and IMHO I don't think hauling gear requires the pov to be approved by wing or be inspected by wing.  The only time a pov AFAIK needs to be approved by wing/inspected is when A) you are going to transport cadets to activities when no other means of being able to use CAP vehicles or B) you are going to use your pov in support of an AFAM or CAP funded mission.

Otherwise using a POV to tow or haul gear within as long as within reason the vehicle should obviously be insured should anything happen to you, the vehicle and the gear inside it or being towed.

Expense is another matter... that is always a #1 topic to consider when looking at how to manage getting cadets and gear moved at once.

[Ned]

Some states, like California, have laws that restrict the number of passengers and/or types of vehicle that a regular operator's license can carry/operate.

So be sure to check local laws.

Ned Lee
Former Legal Officer

[JohnKachenmeister]

Some states define a "Bus" as any vehicle equipped to carry more than 9 passengers.  If you are driving a bus, you may need a CDL.  Also, if it is EQUIPPED for more than 9 people, the number of persons actually carried makes no difference.  A bus is a bus even when empty.  Make sure you come to a complete stop at all railroad grade crossings!

John Kachenmeister
Former Traffic Cop

[FW]

Our vehicle accident statistics this Fiscal Year have shown a substantial increase from previous years.  The CAP/SE thinks this might be due to the large number of 15 pass. vans in our fleet.  If this is true, we may need to be properly trained in driving these things around before we get behind the wheel.  

They do drive differently than miatas.

[arajca]

Some states define a "Bus" as any vehicle equipped to carry more than 9 passengers.  If you are driving a bus, you may need a CDL.  Also, if it is EQUIPPED for more than 9 people, the number of persons actually carried makes no difference.  A bus is a bus even when empty.  Make sure you come to a complete stop at all railroad grade crossings!

John Kachenmeister
Former Traffic Cop

I've never heard of that. 15 pass+driver (16 total) is the CDL definition I've heard of in several states. The reason for the 16 total was there are too many privately owned 15 pax vans to require every driver to have a cdl.

I was a CDL examiner for several years, until I gave it up last year.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Ohio defined a "Bus" as a vehicle capable of holding more than 9 pax (excluding the driver) but CDL's were not required for vans. 

Full stops at grade crossings were, though.

[Frenchie]

In Texas, if the vehicle is designed to carry > 15 pax, you need a CDL.  CAP may have other requirements based on insurance or safety, but this is just a guess.

Not a lawyer, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[sardak]

As used in the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) 49 CFR 571.3:
"Bus means a motor vehicle with motive power, except a trailer, designed for carrying more than 10 persons."  Because of this definition, many safety laws that apply to cars and light trucks don't apply to 15 passenger vans.

The original 10 person question probably is a result of studies by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) on 15 pax van rollovers.  NTSB found that 15 pax vans with 10 to 15 passengers, when involved in accidents, rolled over in 85% of them but vans carrying 5 or less pax rolled over in "only" 28% of accidents.  The NHTSA study found that vans with 10 or more  pax rolled over 3 times as often as vans with less than 10 occupants.
NHTSA 15 Passenger Van Reports
NTSB 15 Passenger Van Report
NTSB 15 Passenger Van Safety Alert

Both NTSB and NHTSA published safety recommendations on 15 passenger vans.  Most but not all of these have been  included in CAPR 77-1.  I thought CAP had a letter about van safety but I couldn't find one.  77-1 defines a bus as a vehicle which can carry 16 or more passengers.

Federal law (49USC30125) prohibits the sale of 15-passenger vans for the school-related transport of high school age and younger students.

Mike

[mynetdude]

Also something someone didn't point out is that the Ford E/Econoliner vans have a higher rollover rate than the Chevy version of the 15 passenger vans. I am pretty sure I read somewhere in a memo/letter from CAP stating this... in all cases you should take turns slower and make sure to make your turns just alittle wider.

[Frenchie]

Also something someone didn't point out is that the Ford E/Econoliner vans have a higher rollover rate than the Chevy version of the 15 passenger vans. I am pretty sure I read somewhere in a memo/letter from CAP stating this... in all cases you should take turns slower and make sure to make your turns just alittle wider.

Another thing along these lines is to check tire pressure.  Tire pressure should always be set to the value specified by the owner's manual or it usually can be found on the driver's door jam.  It's important to use these values and not what's on the tire or what someone thinks the tire pressure should be.  Vehicles are tested for rollover and the vehicle manufacturer specifies the optimum tire pressure.  Too much pressure and the vehicle becomes unstable and more likely to roll over.  Too little pressure and the tire can more likely blow out or hydroplane and both conditions can lead to rollover.  Tire pressure is important on any vehicle, but is critical on SUVs or vans because of their inherent instability and high center of gravity.

[mynetdude]

Also something someone didn't point out is that the Ford E/Econoliner vans have a higher rollover rate than the Chevy version of the 15 passenger vans. I am pretty sure I read somewhere in a memo/letter from CAP stating this... in all cases you should take turns slower and make sure to make your turns just alittle wider.

Another thing along these lines is to check tire pressure.  Tire pressure should always be set to the value specified by the owner's manual or it usually can be found on the driver's door jam.  It's important to use these values and not what's on the tire or what someone thinks the tire pressure should be.  Vehicles are tested for rollover and the vehicle manufacturer specifies the optimum tire pressure.  Too much pressure and the vehicle becomes unstable and more likely to roll over.  Too little pressure and the tire can more likely blow out or hydroplane and both conditions can lead to rollover.  Tire pressure is important on any vehicle, but is critical on SUVs or vans because of their inherent instability and high center of gravity.

Ah good point

[sardak]

Tire pressure is one of the biggest factors mentioned in the government reports, and is highlighted in both groups' recommendations to reduce the problem.  CAPR 77-1 doesn't emphasize this.

Mike

[mynetdude]

Tire pressure is one of the biggest factors mentioned in the government reports, and is highlighted in both groups' recommendations to reduce the problem.  CAPR 77-1 doesn't emphasize this.

Mike

It SHOULD then...

[floridacyclist]

Using a trailer to tow the gear will not only help with room inside, but with weight distribution inside the van as well. Taking the weight off the van's rear axle and putting it on it's own set of wheels will reduce the tendency for the tail to wag the dog, which is what happens with the Ford vans. We're looking for a 4-seat high-wing airplane fuselage with a straight back (no rear windshield) to make a utility trailer / rolling billboard out of. If nothing else, my comm trailer would work great as a light-duty cargo trailer once it's done, but we'd have to be careful not to overdo it as it is designed with minimum gross weight in mind for ease of towing; aluminum frame and fiberglass-covered styrofoam sides.

In short, when Ford lengthened their vans, they added the extra space behind the rear axle, increasing the rear overhang and leverage, Chevy and Dodge added the weight between the axles, not only decreasing the leverage that the extra weight had on the rest of the vehicle, but increasing the stability via a longer wheelbase.

[mynetdude]

Using a trailer to tow the gear will not only help with room inside, but with weight distribution inside the van as well. Taking the weight off the van's rear axle and putting it on it's own set of wheels will reduce the tendency for the tail to wag the dog, which is what happens with the Ford vans. We're looking for a 4-seat high-wing airplane fuselage with a straight back (no rear windshield) to make a utility trailer / rolling billboard out of. If nothing else, my comm trailer would work great as a light-duty cargo trailer once it's done, but we'd have to be careful not to overdo it as it is designed with minimum gross weight in mind for ease of towing; aluminum frame and fiberglass-covered styrofoam sides.

In short, when Ford lengthened their vans, they added the extra space behind the rear axle, increasing the rear overhang and leverage, Chevy and Dodge added the weight between the axles, not only decreasing the leverage that the extra weight had on the rest of the vehicle, but increasing the stability via a longer wheelbase.

haven't seen any single engine aircraft fuselage with no rear window.  Though having one as a small utility/cargo trailer would be kinda neat... gotta cut those wings off and all that .  Though the advantage of having alittle bit of wing left on would be you could stick your flagpoles or whatnot in them and store it there (provided the wing has been cleaned out and such).

[JohnKachenmeister]

And when you are not using it as a trailer you can set it up as a search target.

Cessna 172's built before (I think) 1963 had no rear windows.

Cessna 150's used to not only have a rear window, but a rear-view mirror.  That was useful if a jet was signalling to pass, I guess.  Or maybe while backing?

[mynetdude]

lolz a jet signaling to pass... too funny thats a laugh..

I have seen countless photos of C172/182s in front of various jets while taxiing, its a HUGE difference.  Its amazing the folks piloting the jets can see them even!

[floridacyclist]

180s and 185s have them as well...but I have a better chance of finding good quality oceanfront property in downtown Albuquerque. I almost got a 172 straightback from a junkyard in Wimauma, but he scrapped it out before I could get it. We have our 150 now with boat trailer axle stubs and wheels in place of the stock lightweight aluminum hardware, but it doesn't hold much....it sure gets the second looks driving down the highway though, and I have yet to see a cadet or target group (we set up mock SAR scenes as a PR event) not excited about finding that in the woods with victims hanging out of it.

[RiverAux]

Tire preassure is about the only thing the AF guys care about when they make inspections of our vehicles.  We had it checked and set at an actual tire store one time and then got gigged for it by the AF the next day based on their cheapo pressure tester. 

[arajca]

Don't feel bad. I set mine at the shop where I work then had to drive 150+ miles to the inspection and decend about 2000ft. I wonder why my tire pressure was low.

The AF also cares about the first aid kit and any expired items in it. I got four gigs for that - one for each expired item.

[mikeylikey]

Don't feel bad. I set mine at the shop where I work then had to drive 150+ miles to the inspection and decend about 2000ft. I wonder why my tire pressure was low.

The AF also cares about the first aid kit and any expired items in it. I got four gigs for that - one for each expired item.

That should only have been one gig.  One gig for the entire first aid kit.  You should have fought that. 

[SarDragon]

Don't feel bad. I set mine at the shop where I work then had to drive 150+ miles to the inspection and decend about 2000ft. I wonder why my tire pressure was low.

The AF also cares about the first aid kit and any expired items in it. I got four gigs for that - one for each expired item.

Really? Let's look at the variables.

Most tire gages are ±4 % of indicated value, or 2 psi, whichever is greater. At an arbitrary 40 psi, 4% gives ±1.6 psi, so the tolerance is 2 psi.

Pressure changes about 1 psi for every 2000 ft altitude change, so your tire pressure would be 1 psi lower.

Driving 150 miles will heat the tires enough to raise the pressure about 4 psi (typical).

End result - the tire pressure might be higher than the starting value. Since there is as much uncertainty in the measurement as there is change in pressure, it's all a wash.

YMMV.

[mynetdude]

Don't feel bad. I set mine at the shop where I work then had to drive 150+ miles to the inspection and decend about 2000ft. I wonder why my tire pressure was low.

The AF also cares about the first aid kit and any expired items in it. I got four gigs for that - one for each expired item.

Really? Let's look at the variables.

Most tire gages are ±4 % of indicated value, or 2 psi, whichever is greater. At an arbitrary 40 psi, 4% gives ±1.6 psi, so the tolerance is 2 psi.

Pressure changes about 1 psi for every 2000 ft altitude change, so your tire pressure would be 1 psi lower.

Driving 150 miles will heat the tires enough to raise the pressure about 4 psi (typical).

End result - the tire pressure might be higher than the starting value. Since there is as much uncertainty in the measurement as there is change in pressure, it's all a wash.

YMMV.

which is why they say to never ever fill your tires to max capacity to allow room for heated/expanded air... remember heat=air expands.  If there isn't enough room, it goes boom.

[SarDragon]

Don't feel bad. I set mine at the shop where I work then had to drive 150+ miles to the inspection and decend about 2000ft. I wonder why my tire pressure was low.

The AF also cares about the first aid kit and any expired items in it. I got four gigs for that - one for each expired item.

Really? Let's look at the variables.

Most tire gages are ±4 % of indicated value, or 2 psi, whichever is greater. At an arbitrary 40 psi, 4% gives ±1.6 psi, so the tolerance is 2 psi.

Pressure changes about 1 psi for every 2000 ft altitude change, so your tire pressure would be 1 psi lower.

Driving 150 miles will heat the tires enough to raise the pressure about 4 psi (typical).

End result - the tire pressure might be higher than the starting value. Since there is as much uncertainty in the measurement as there is change in pressure, it's all a wash.

YMMV.

which is why they say to never ever fill your tires to max capacity to allow room for heated/expanded air... remember heat=air expands.  If there isn't enough room, it goes boom.

Approaching urban myth. Yes, the pressure will increase as a tire gets hotter, but the amount of increase is nowhere near enough to burst the tire.

An increase in temperature from 0°F to 212°F (highly unlikely) on a tire initially inflated to 40 psi only causes an 18 psi increase in pressure, hardly enough to cause failure.

[SJFedor]

Here in TN, we've removed the back seat out of the 15pax vans, which makes them 12pax. I believe the state here calls anything 15 or greater persons = bus. So, we have the back seat out (which is nice, gives more room for gear!) but we still require persons to hold a special 15pax endorsement on their CAP DL, included in that is a 10 minute walk around to understand why it's bigger and how it drives differently.

Our Wing also requires that spotters are used whenever a 15pax van is backed up.

[mikeylikey]

Here in TN, we've removed the back seat out of the 15pax vans, which makes them 12pax. I believe the state here calls anything 15 or greater persons = bus. So, we have the back seat out (which is nice, gives more room for gear!) but we still require persons to hold a special 15pax endorsement on their CAP DL, included in that is a 10 minute walk around to understand why it's bigger and how it drives differently.

Our Wing also requires that spotters are used whenever a 15pax van is backed up.

Those are great practices!  However, isn't removing the seats from vans forbidden in the regs?  Where do you store your rear seats?  Me, I would put it in the living room, but then again, I am somewhat lacking on furniture and need a sofa.

[SSgt Rudin]

Here in TN, we've removed the back seat out of the 15pax vans, which makes them 12pax. I believe the state here calls anything 15 or greater persons = bus. So, we have the back seat out (which is nice, gives more room for gear!) but we still require persons to hold a special 15pax endorsement on their CAP DL, included in that is a 10 minute walk around to understand why it's bigger and how it drives differently.

Our Wing also requires that spotters are used whenever a 15pax van is backed up.

Those are great practices!  However, isn't removing the seats from vans forbidden in the regs?  Where do you store your rear seats?  Me, I would put it in the living room, but then again, I am somewhat lacking on furniture and need a sofa.

I do believe that in my squadron's van the rear two seats are designed to come out with out removing any nuts/bolts, like the 3rd row in a lot of SUV's. When we do take them out they either go in our storage unit or someone's garage if it is short term. I know FLWG has a supplement stating that no nut/bolt/screw will be added with out permission from wing transportation, nothing about removing stuff. 

[SJFedor]

Here in TN, we've removed the back seat out of the 15pax vans, which makes them 12pax. I believe the state here calls anything 15 or greater persons = bus. So, we have the back seat out (which is nice, gives more room for gear!) but we still require persons to hold a special 15pax endorsement on their CAP DL, included in that is a 10 minute walk around to understand why it's bigger and how it drives differently.

Our Wing also requires that spotters are used whenever a 15pax van is backed up.

Those are great practices!  However, isn't removing the seats from vans forbidden in the regs?  Where do you store your rear seats?  Me, I would put it in the living room, but then again, I am somewhat lacking on furniture and need a sofa.

Dunno. The rear seat was removed prior to delivery, so I imagine the Wing/LG has the seats stored somewhere.

Honestly, I've driven a CAP van a total of 1 time, and don't plan to drive them in the future. Being a pilot makes me cool like that 

[capchiro]

Our Church did a thorough study on the 15 Pax rollover issue last year and the cheapest, easiest, and simplist solution would be to put duelie conversions on the back.  I think there are some companies that would do it for around $2,000-$2,500 total.  I think that would be a good idea and relieve some liability and insure some safety. 

[afgeo4]

I believe NYWG removed all rear seats from their 15 pax vans as well. I was told it was due to the overloading factor. How that's possible I don't know because now the vans get stuffed full of gear in the back which is actually heavier than a 3 cadets.

I know the latest purchases here have been 10pax Chevy Express vans and our current group van is a 10pax Dodge Ram, so I don't deal with these issues much.

[NJMEDIC]

I have driven this chassis for years as a van ambulance and yes you must be careful in turns even when I drive to an emergency I use due caution.

I believe that Federal DOT requires a CDL for 15 pax vehicles for professional IE for hire drivers, our squadron van is a 12 pax from delivery. Also New Jersey does not require CDL Driver Lic. for volunteers, IE firefighter, Paid firefighter and fire app. repair mechanics must have the CDL.

[fireplug]

ATTN: LG/T's. Does your wing have a policy of restricting pax in 12- and 15-passenger vans to only 10 people, including the driver? Thanks.

Thanks to all who have weighed in on this subject. I now have my answer.
I've been told by my Wing CC that the NHQ/SE, Col Letteer, will be issuing instructions limiting van capacity to 12, 11 pax and a driver. Further, current 15-pax vans are to have their rear seats removed. and no roof rack storage.
This info is current as of Thursday, 6 March.

[mikeylikey]

^ Then I have to question why money was spent on 15PAX vans to begin with.  Apparently, there was never a huge safety issue before now, I wonder why the issues now?

[RiverAux]

Well, I'm fairly sure that the safety issues weren't raised until the last few years while we've been buying vans of those sizes for quite some time. 

It will be interesting to see what we get for the next generation of general purpose CAP vehicles. 

[FW]

^ Then I have to question why money was spent on 15PAX vans to begin with.  Apparently, there was never a huge safety issue before now, I wonder why the issues now?

There has been a large increase in van accidents this year. 

[badger bob]

Last years CAP van purchase was extended body vans without the rear seat from the factory (except Texas)  giving a 12 passenger configuration (driver plus 11) with room behind the rear seat.

Vans 2004 and newer have anti-rollover program built in to their electronic controls for engines and anti-lock brakes.

Older model 15 passenger Ford Vans and Dodge vans can be more squirrelly due to the rear overhang( body area behind the rear axle) if they are loaded improperly or used fro towing large trailers

[afgeo4]

Anyone know from experience how the Sprinter vans fair in such conditions? They look awful big and tall in the high top configuration.

[badger bob]

Sprinter vans a great vehicles, but their initial cost with their Mercedes Diesel is about double what CAP pays for their 15 passengers. CAP does not drive enough miles per year to jsutify the initial cost and maintainance costs.

Great vehicle if you drive 50,000 miles per year for a 6 year life-cycle but not so good if you drive 6,000 miles per year on a 20 year life cycle.

[afgeo4]

Sprinter vans a great vehicles, but their initial cost with their Mercedes Diesel is about double what CAP pays for their 15 passengers. CAP does not drive enough miles per year to jsutify the initial cost and maintainance costs.

Great vehicle if you drive 50,000 miles per year for a 6 year life-cycle but not so good if you drive 6,000 miles per year on a 20 year life cycle.

Is that also the case with the V-6 gasoline engine?

[mynetdude]

those sprinter vans don't look big enough to hold more than 8-9 including driver. They are tall though, wouldn't that increase the CG?

[badger bob]

I believe their normal passenger configuaration is 10 pass.

Again, their cost is significantly more than Ford or GM vans so they are not going to be purchased by CAP

[davedove]

Not to my knowledge and my unit has a 15-pax van. The only times we don't carry a full load is:
1. there isn't a full load.
or
2. there is too much gear for a full load.

While there could be state laws affecting the situation, these are probably the most common, especially the part about too much gear.

For instance, our squadron has a seven passenger van.  Seven people with 24 hour gear is a tight fit.  There is no way we could also fit in the 72 hour gear with seven people.

[floridacyclist]

We have a 15-pax, but we removed the rear seat to improve cargo capacity and weight distribution

[gistek]

...We're looking for a 4-seat high-wing airplane fuselage with a straight back (no rear windshield) to make a utility trailer / rolling billboard out of. ...

The last time I was at the Mid Atlantic Air Museum in Reading, PA they had several fuselages in their "graveyard." I know the township wanted them to get rid of the stuff in the graveyard, so I don't know if they still have them. Maybe there's a similar museum in your general area.