CAP ES Smartphone App Project (Android, etc.)

[JC004]

One of my projects is a CAP ES smartphone app. 

I have two in the works:
1.  The log app that was suggested before (figure I will do aircrew log, GT log, etc.)
2.  An app that has all of your task guides, curriculum books, etc. 

The intent of my #2 app is for training and mission reference (easy and fast).

I'm looking for ideas, feedback and people who have experience with smartphone development.

I know it might be a long shot to find developers since I had basically no luck with that before and CAP web developer-types that I asked didn't have any smartphone experience.  Mine is very limited.  It would also be good to have someone who could make the app work for iPhone... I can't find ANY iPhone development people in CAP from my asking around.  Not one person with this experience so far.  Maybe if I could at least find someone who CAN develop for iPhone and simply hasn't before?

Ideas?  Input?  Feedback?  People?  Someone who can make the graphics (have limited success finding CAP graphics people too)?

I want to get this done but my experience here is limited.  I also want to integrate the resources I'm compiling (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13700.msg247688#msg247688).

Would you use an app like this (either of the two)?

[ProdigalJim]

I definitely would use both.

I'd also like to see something like an integrated "briefing/sortie" package...you'd have your CAPF104, your ORM, Weight and Balance, observation log, the ability to upload and attach imagery (stupid Safari...), all in one place, referenced to grid squares, etc. Basically all that stuff that, today, we have to grab from different places and scribble on a kneeboard, scratch pad, and so forth.

[JC004]

That might be good to run on Android and also have for iPad and such.  I don't do a lot of aircrew and I'm still trying to figure out some different things about integrating the app, so I'd probably need a couple people - maybe some aircrew people to submit an idea of how that would work/flow/be laid out.

Being able to have CAP apps for tablets could be pretty great.

[HGjunkie]

I don't have many ideas, but I'm willing to help.

[JC004]

Have you developed anything for Android? 

A couple things that I'm trying to figure out right now are how to structure it correctly and how to integrate search.

One idea I just had is to add a checklist for ES gear (which can be customized) and you can check off the stuff you have or wipe the checks clean to do an inspection of your gear.

I am also trying to decide if I should make kind of a training app and a separate operational app, or an all-out ES app that grows and implements different things as people contribute.

[MilesDyson]

I am an software engineer and have worked a little with Android in the past.

What I wanted to do with it was to make use of the compass and GPS to allow a ground team unit member to be tracked on a Google map by mission base, and also to allow the ground team member to see where he is in relation to other CAP members, vehicles and aircraft. It would allow the IC to see where all his assets were on a  map at mission base. It would be great to integrate it with our digital P25 radios for situations where we are away from wireless coverage - use a highbird aircraft to relay the data to/from base our even AFRCC / NOC. I have inquired a bit about doing this but have gotten no interest from leadership, so I am not willing to spend time doing it at this point.

[Eclipse]

It's already done.

https://www.google.com/latitude

Works great, and has native app support for Android and iOS, with web-based support on Blackberry, Windows Mobile, Symbian, and Sony Ericsson.

Cap is light years away from doing anything data-related via P25, and for the most part it is unnecessary.  In 80-90% of our use, cellular data
is up and running, and in the few instances where it isn't, we just make do until it is with old school long/lat manual reports.

The wheel exists, embrace it.

[MilesDyson]

No. Latitude is first of all dependent on a working cellphone system. Does not work in emergencies. Latitude does not provide a CAP specific solution to running a CAP ES mission. Latitude is slow, and frequently in great error (it showed my wife in New Mexico last week when she was out shopping in the midwest).

CAP engineers cannot do anything with data because CAP leadership won't give us an opportunity to show what we can do.

[Eclipse]

Yeah.  OK.

A "CAP-specific solution" is wholly unnecessary and an excuse to leave proven technology and tools lying on the table while pursuing something which
may or may not even be feasible, let alone a good idea.

Anecdotal comments about a situation where one person has an issue which could be anything from user error to poor choice of device isn't going to
do much for your argument, nor does it negate the simple fact that "mature" technologies like HF are just as prone to failure and are no more "guaranteed to work" than anything else.  Not to mention the expense and single-threaded nature of their use.

There are other proven technologies similar to Latitude which might be better or different, most rely on infrastructure of one kind or another,
and everything has fail points and weaknesses, however that doesn't mean you simply dismiss the idea because it "might fail".

Drive a car?  It might fail.  Store your food in a refrigerator?  It might fail.

When it does, you simply adapt.

How long have you been a member?  What most successful members understand, is that in an environment like CAP, the response you will
receive will be much different if you ask "What can do you need?" vs. telling people "This is what you need."

[MilesDyson]

How would you know it is "wholly unnecessary"? You don't even know what I am talking about.

[Eclipse]

You didn't answer the question about your CAP experience.

How would you know it is "wholly unnecessary"? You don't even know what I am talking about.

My experience and understanding of CAP's requirements.

That doesn't mean your idea isn't "cool", or even "better", only that in a world of free / cheap off-the-shelf products, services, and capabilities, for people to be concerned about CAP-specific solutions is generally energy better spent in other areas.

[MilesDyson]

Five years. What does that matter?

[Eclipse]

Five years. What does that matter?

It matters a lot, because the statements you are making would lead one to believe you are brand new and don't have a clear idea how CAP works.

For a new member who hasn't spent any time with the regs and the environment, that's understandable, but for someone who is presumably of a
company-grade with a rating or two under his belt, that smacks of the little guys who spend their time asking for money under bridges.

[N Harmon]

Have you developed anything for Android? 

I have developed for Android using both the AppInventor as well as eclipse with the Android SDK.

AppInventor is pretty limited, but development is very fast. The types of programs you appear to be wanting to make (like weight & balance calculators) can all be done in AppInventor. With the Android SDK you need to have a handle on Java, but you will be able to take full advantage of the features in Android.

[wuzafuzz]

No. Latitude is first of all dependent on a working cellphone system. Does not work in emergencies. Latitude does not provide a CAP specific solution to running a CAP ES mission. Latitude is slow, and frequently in great error (it showed my wife in New Mexico last week when she was out shopping in the midwest).

CAP engineers cannot do anything with data because CAP leadership won't give us an opportunity to show what we can do.

One word: SPOT

It even works where cell phones don't.  The Air Force has had positive things to say about SPOT devices when CAP has used them.

http://www.findmespot.com/en/

Yes, it costs some money.  So does feeding that high-bird.  Heck, it'll even work when the high-bird can't fly.

BTW, if you had watched the national communicators meeting a couple of weeks ago you would have heard them discuss the possibility of sending data over the radio.  If it happens it will be a secure solution, so off the shelf gadgets from Ham Radio Outlet won't cut it.  The goal should be to accomplish the mission for our customers, not to "show what we can do."

[MilesDyson]

No. Latitude is first of all dependent on a working cellphone system. Does not work in emergencies. Latitude does not provide a CAP specific solution to running a CAP ES mission. Latitude is slow, and frequently in great error (it showed my wife in New Mexico last week when she was out shopping in the midwest).

CAP engineers cannot do anything with data because CAP leadership won't give us an opportunity to show what we can do.

One word: SPOT

It even works where cell phones don't.  The Air Force has had positive things to say about SPOT devices when CAP has used them.

http://www.findmespot.com/en/

Yes, it costs some money.  So does feeding that high-bird.  Heck, it'll even work when the high-bird can't fly.

BTW, if you had watched the national communicators meeting a couple of weeks ago you would have heard them discuss the possibility of sending data over the radio.  If it happens it will be a secure solution, so off the shelf gadgets from Ham Radio Outlet won't cut it.  The goal should be to accomplish the mission for our customers, not to "show what we can do."

Would something like this cut it?

http://openhpsdr.org/index.php

[Eclipse]

Would something like this cut it?

http://openhpsdr.org/index.php

As what?

That appears to be a platform, not a system.

However, assuming this incorporates self-hosted / built / maintained servers and systems?

No.

[JC004]

Can we be calm please?  OK...good...thanks.

While we're doing that, let's not discourage people from posting ideas lest they be immediately shot down. 

NOW, there are perhaps different options here.  For example, perhaps a CAP-specific app could interface with, or use another app as a base (Latitude or something else).  I have limited experience with Latitude because I did not have good luck with the location-detection for some reason.  Works fine on my phone in general but for some reason, Latitude wanted to show me somewhere else.  I am not sure why because I thought it would also happen in Google Maps.  I am playing with it right now.  The office in which I am sitting is listed as half a mile away.  Regardless, whatever.  If we built a CAP interface for something else and hooked it together, maybe we get the advantages of the other app and can make it EASY TO USE for members.  That's a HUGE deal.  If I am on a mission, I don't want to try figuring out how to cram another non-CAP technology into a CAP world.  I just want to use it.

It would help to have various ideas out there and work things down from there.  Even potentially sucky ideas can perhaps become good ideas.  You all see?  k.  Good.

I am an software engineer and have worked a little with Android in the past.

What I wanted to do with it was to make use of the compass and GPS to allow a ground team unit member to be tracked on a Google map by mission base, and also to allow the ground team member to see where he is in relation to other CAP members, vehicles and aircraft. It would allow the IC to see where all his assets were on a  map at mission base. It would be great to integrate it with our digital P25 radios for situations where we are away from wireless coverage - use a highbird aircraft to relay the data to/from base our even AFRCC / NOC. I have inquired a bit about doing this but have gotten no interest from leadership, so I am not willing to spend time doing it at this point.

I like this concept and perhaps it would be best built as a CAP app or as an app which interfaces with/feeds off something else.  One concern we have to have is this:  We build on Latitude or something, we have to be prepared for the something to GO AWAY.  Google has been known to shut down a project in a hurry.  Wave, anybody?  Same goes for other companies.  I disagree that we should rely on data coverage being there and not even consider radio.  We had our earthquake last week and I couldn't call anyone for a good while.  Data was totally messed up too - for HOURS.  The other consideration is that there are isolated places where we may need to operate.  There are isolated places in Pennsylvania (well, mostly just one place - north central PA) where data coverage may be spotty or non-existent.  Given the ability to get lost in, say, the Pennsylvania Grand Canyon, we need alternatives to that data coverage.  REDUNDANCY is GOOD in emergency services. 

With that said, let me address your issue with the leadership.  When possible, do not wait for them.  I have been doing CAP technology projects for a lot of years now.  I have been in CAP communications for about 10 years.  When you talk about things with buttons and lights to the leadership in many cases, their heads spin around, their eye glaze over, or they proceed to the nearest cliff and jump. 

I have decided to try some apps (even with my limited experience in this area) specifically because it is something that I can do WITHOUT a huge involvement from the leadership (if any).  Take a look at your project and see what can be done without a commander's buy-in.  See what we could do and just present to them.  I found in the past 12 years that in some cases, the best thing to do is just create it, then show them.  THEN they see it, get it, and say "this is great."  You approach them with just a proposal and something like the aforementioned situation happens. 

If you have read "Solutions for Civil Air Patrol," you have some idea of the types of things that I am experimenting with to see if I can get them implemented despite the election.  You will see that some would ABSOLUTELY REQUIRE leadership buy-in from day one, some would need it to a lessor degree, and some won't need it at all.  Would you be willing to look at this and see what we can accomplish without a huge buy-in?

Don't just throw up your hands as I did a couple years ago.  You will probably regret it and all of us who would benefit will have less great tools.  I will guarantee you that members will use great CAP apps.  I can almost guarantee you that leadership will start getting interested once they see something they can use.  If you trust anyone's experience with this situation, trust mine.  I am the king of collecting great technology ideas for CAP that have been ignored by leadership. 

Have you developed anything for Android? 

I have developed for Android using both the AppInventor as well as eclipse with the Android SDK.

AppInventor is pretty limited, but development is very fast. The types of programs you appear to be wanting to make (like weight & balance calculators) can all be done in AppInventor. With the Android SDK you need to have a handle on Java, but you will be able to take full advantage of the features in Android.

ooooooo.  I have only done one app (as an experiment).  I will probably end up using AppInventor because I went with PHP and therefore know about nothing Java-related.  At one of the places I worked, the president (a Java guru) actively discouraged me from going the Java route and I didn't.  Would you be interested in projects like these?  I think they could make a huge difference to people in the field.

What if I create something in AppInventor and I am limited?  Can I create the app's base, then someone with more experience and skill in this area could just take the code and add what AppInventor can't do?

[MilesDyson]

JC004 - thanks for your comments.

[wuzafuzz]

No. Latitude is first of all dependent on a working cellphone system. Does not work in emergencies. Latitude does not provide a CAP specific solution to running a CAP ES mission. Latitude is slow, and frequently in great error (it showed my wife in New Mexico last week when she was out shopping in the midwest).

CAP engineers cannot do anything with data because CAP leadership won't give us an opportunity to show what we can do.

One word: SPOT

It even works where cell phones don't.  The Air Force has had positive things to say about SPOT devices when CAP has used them.

http://www.findmespot.com/en/

Yes, it costs some money.  So does feeding that high-bird.  Heck, it'll even work when the high-bird can't fly.

BTW, if you had watched the national communicators meeting a couple of weeks ago you would have heard them discuss the possibility of sending data over the radio.  If it happens it will be a secure solution, so off the shelf gadgets from Ham Radio Outlet won't cut it.  The goal should be to accomplish the mission for our customers, not to "show what we can do."

Would something like this cut it?

http://openhpsdr.org/index.php

That's a question for the National Communications Team.  Their comm permissions address was provided to you in another post.  Ask them and see what they say.  However, since it's open source its unlikely it would satisfy the need for secure communications.  Unless your data layer is bulletproof it probably wouldn't fly.

Unfortunately data modes aren't permitted over the air right now.  So experimentation and tinkering are off limits unless prior permission is obtained.  (I know, I know, P25 IS data.)  I look forward to the day we can use data modes; it would be nice to do the kinds of things that MARS does.