Railroad Track Patrols -- A New Mission for CAP?

[RADIOMAN015]

With recent documents found in the raid in Pakistan regarding attacks on passenger trains wonder if CAP could be effective in patrol the nation's railroad tracks.   Awhile back one senior level CAP leader mentioned that the USAF was considering installing Predator type sensor in more CAP aircraft (actually I thought what was actually all CAP aircraft).
Wow, wouldn't that be something with many CAP aircraft being the aerial platform and being directed by sensor operators elsewhere via a secure SATCOM link :clap:

Here's an example of a terrorist incident in Arizona, which I don't think was ever solved:
http://www.weyrich.com/political_issues/sunset_limited.html

This could be a very interesting and busy time for Civil Air Patrol IF an appropriate less costly sensor can be developed to easily discover track issues.   Of course it is also possible that terrorists could be waiting for a passenger train to come by and attack the train right at that time with IED placed on the tracks and various weapons used to further harm passengers on the train.   I guess the question may be --- will CAP be patrolling just ahead of EVERY passenger train in the nation, randomly patrolling, or is this just my fantasy (and likely others)
RM     

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

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A turnkey system, SkyFusion Pak is a breaththrough in value, portability and functionality.

• STC approved for helicopters and small aircraft
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  Video streaming via 3G
  Track vehicles from 5,000 AGL

[Eclipse]

will CAP be patrolling just ahead of EVERY passenger train in the nation, randomly patrolling, or is this just my fantasy (and likely others)

No, they won't, and it's no one's fantasy.

We are not law enforcement, an this would be well outside out mandate and mission.  There are plenty of local police, rail security, and others already charged with that job.

[JoeTomasone]

will CAP be patrolling just ahead of EVERY passenger train in the nation, randomly patrolling, or is this just my fantasy (and likely others)

No, they won't, and it's no one's fantasy.

We are not law enforcement, an this would be well outside out mandate and mission.  There are plenty of local police, rail security, and others already charged with that job.

CD.

Just sayin'...

[RiverAux]

I have a hard time believing that any government agency would want to spend the sort of money that this would take to do this on any sort of regular basis.  I doubt the railroads would be interested either.  There are an infinite number of targets that the bad guys could go after and while these are among them, I doubt it would be worth it. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

While there is strong evidence of a plan to attack a train on September 11 2011, the likely hood of them actually trying it anytime soon is slim. Alqaeda will be spending quite some time arguing over what will happen next and who will succeed Bin Laden as their Sheik and holy warrior. As of now, the most likely candidate is Anwar al-Awlaki. However, he is nowhere near as charismatic, influential or even as strong of a warrior as Bin Laden, and there will be much conflict between the higher ups as to who will take his place. During times like these there is little movement in the tribe, in this case, regime. Most of all their operations will be centered around a  table and bread and chai.

When a new Sheik is named, there will be a good portion of time spent with the new Sheik letting the world know who he is and how he stands. After that, they will most likely retrieve the body of Bin Laden. I know, most think that Muslims believe that the body is never to be disturbed. However, Bin Laden was never given a proper burial according to them, and the circumstances of his death will lead him to Allah no matter how he was buried and they will parade his body in celebration. Then will come the time for retaliation and attack. 

Their first step to retaliating will most likely be to attempt to take full control of Pakistan. They will likely then uniform their followers, and force others in Pakistan to join them. Only then will they try to attack us here at home. Likely they will attempt the same sort of thing they did in 2001. However, they will atleast be smart enough not to try the exact same thing with planes. The Alqaeda believe strongly in the valor of giving their life for their cause, so they will likely still use suicide tactics to attack us at home. Scanning the roadways and rail systems will likely be fruitless because they will try to insert themselves into the target and detonate their bomb from within. You will not be able to see them from the air. Locating them will take some tactics that are not favorable outside of a war zone, and will take good training to know what you are looking for. Marshals and military along with NSA and DHLS agents will be needed on the ground and in the transportation systems as well as malls and large churches so that they can see the people and PID the potential threat. None of this can be done from the air.

The use of remote IEDs is unlikely in a target country. The tactic is used for followers who are trained to actually fight, not by those in another country who have just learned to blend in. This has been proven countless times. Very very seldom have Alqaeda or Mujaheddin for that matter used remote detonation in a country with which they have declared jihad. While they are operating in Iraq and Afghanistan, they have not declared jihad with Iraq or Afghanistan as they have with the USA, that is why they use much more remote detonated IEDs than suicide tactics.

PLEASE NOTE, THIS IS ONLY MY PERSONAL OPINION, NOTHING MORE. YMMV.

[PHall]

Railroads have their own police departments. They don't need our "help".

[RRLE]

It would be awfully hard to impossible to find a problem with a railroad track from several hundred to several thousand feet in the air.

Now something like the unmanned Sikorsky Cypher might be ideal. Too bad it never entered production. A small unmanned vehicle could fly over the tracks and stop and hover when something suspicious was spotted. And the operator would be in a safe remote spot.

[RADIOMAN015]

Railroads have their own police departments. They don't need our "help".

Not an expert on this but I understand one line the CSX has only 2 security ("special agent") personnel between Selkirk NY terminal & Boston MA termination point (which Amtrak uses part of their rail system).  They mostly concentrate on railroad yards where RR cars are stopped, to prevent larcenies.   Also Amtrak use New England Central Railroad track (going to Vermont) and I'm not sure if they even have a security department.

Amtrak Police/Security information can be found at: http://police.amtrak.com/   Notice the request for assistance from travelers and others IF they see something out of place.
 
RM

[RRLE]

Track inspection is a separate department from security. It is the track inspectors who would probably find evidence of sabotage. Track inspectors have some really neat stuff to do their jobs with. Here is a sampling of stuff from a UK company. Rail Maintenance and Track Inspection Vehicles.

Sometimes the inspection vehicle is nothing more sophisticated then a standard van with a small set of railroad wheels fore and aft. The van drives up onto the tracks and lowers the railroad wheels. Once engaged the regular tires ride on the rails to provide locomotion.

Also see Wikipedia article: Track Checker

[Eclipse]

Railroads have their own police departments. They don't need our "help".

Not an expert on this but I understand one line the CSX has only 2 security ("special agent") personnel between Selkirk NY terminal & Boston MA termination point (which Amtrak uses part of their rail system).  They mostly concentrate on railroad yards where RR cars are stopped, to prevent larcenies.   Also Amtrak use New England Central Railroad track (going to Vermont) and I'm not sure if they even have a security department.

Excellent.   Why not upload some maps that show the most difficult places to see?

I don't even know why you think you need that information, but providing that sort or thing publicly is really, really, dumb, especially if it is just to make a point about how informed you are about information you shouldn't even have.

It doesn't even matter if that info is readily available elsewhere, or through FOIA, or any other "smoking gun" source.

[Flying Pig]

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Hmmmm,  I like it.

[Persona non grata]

We are the CIVIL Air Patrol..........did I get it right RM?

[blackrain]

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  Track vehicles from 5,000 AGL

Hmmmm,  I like it.

Sounds like a great company consulting opportunity for a California LE Pilot or possibly former Army Mohawk Pilot given it's California location

[RADIOMAN015]

Railroads have their own police departments. They don't need our "help".

Not an expert on this but I understand one line the CSX has only 2 security ("special agent") personnel between Selkirk NY terminal & Boston MA termination point (which Amtrak uses part of their rail system).  They mostly concentrate on railroad yards where RR cars are stopped, to prevent larcenies.   Also Amtrak use New England Central Railroad track (going to Vermont) and I'm not sure if they even have a security department.

Excellent.   Why not upload some maps that show the most difficult places to see?

I don't even know why you think you need that information, but providing that sort or thing publicly is really, really, dumb, especially if it is just to make a point about how informed you are about information you shouldn't even have.

It doesn't even matter if that info is readily available elsewhere, or through FOIA, or any other "smoking gun" source.

The information was published on a railroad hobbyists site/list server that was discussing using railroad hobbyists as a security assistance due to the large amount of track and staffing issues ALL railroads face.  It also named other railroad lines and what they were doing.  I guess we really are dealing with dumb terrorists that likely wouldn't be interested in just reading/researching the various list servers open to the public when their leader had that as one of the plans .  Seems to me at least some CAP members need a reality check on what terrorist are capable of doing with relative easy.  (I'm glad I never take the train anywhere anyways).  Anyone with access to Google earth or maps would be able to easily determine non populated areas that the tracks run through.

The Arizona incident is a perfect example of something that didn't even need any explosives but derailed the passenger train. 

I'll even heard that because of budget issues many if not most rural/small town police forces abutting the tracks will not even be proactive in patrolling track areas for trespassers, BUT will only be reactive IF a trespass call is received.

Also what is interesting is to the best of my knowledge NONE of the railroads have been proactive to property owners along the tracks right of way (or even access roads a distance away that go down to the tracks) , even to ask for their help (Why not just pay CAP to have cadets deliver a 1 or 2 page security fact sheet (with RR security toll free numbers) to everyone along the tracks right of ways  asking for assistance , There's plenty of ground teams that have been on absolutely no missions in a long time, this could be a simple but yet potentially effective mission).  My workplace is next to a main line track area and IF we find anyone on our property parked etc, they are trespassing (we have signs) and the police are called and respond.  However, we aren't doing this because of the railroad tracks we are doing this because the individuals (sometimes rail hobbyists) are trespassing on our property (e.g. liability & security issues).

Do we as CAP members (and the entire CAP organization/leadership structure)  just sit back and let things happen or can we be PROACTIVE in the air and on the ground in assisting with track security via "observation" patrols (which I'm confident are legal under our charter since surveillance means following a specific target).

Would CAP be able to "observe patrol" every mainline railroad track in the US , likely not, and the effectiveness of this without night vision/close up view technology, would be questionable anyways.   It is likely in those states that have Law Enforcement helicopters with appropriate sensor technology, likely would get the night patrol missions.

It does get down to the cost versus benefit of all of this.  Remember that all of "9/11" could have been prevented if the pilots didn't open up the cockpit door and instead buckled in and sharp turned the aircraft and dove down to the closest airport.   Perhaps since railroads don't carry as many people and it would be a more localized terrorist attack other than railroad terminal 'drama" homeland security (e.g. cops with automatic weapons and bomb/attack detection dogs), nothing else will be done
RM 

[Eclipse]

The information was published on a railroad hobbyists site/list server that was discussing using railroad hobbyists as a security assistance due to the large amount of track and staffing issues ALL railroads face.  It also named other railroad lines and what they were doing.

My lord...

[RADIOMAN015]

The information was published on a railroad hobbyists site/list server that was discussing using railroad hobbyists as a security assistance due to the large amount of track and staffing issues ALL railroads face.  It also named other railroad lines and what they were doing.

My lord...

No they aren't going to have badges & guns (although I'm sure at least some of them would love to ), the programs being discussed are similar to the AF's "Eagle Eyes" program of observation and reporting.  I do believe those hobbyists were sincere in their efforts to help.  Do a search of youtube on rail fans, these guys (and some girls) chase trains and video tape the trains (many times they know the schedule of the train and the radio frequency for the train dispatcher is monitored and just set up their equipment at an appropriate crossing.   In my area one teenager (which law enforcement determined was not associated with the girl) was video taped jumped right in front of an Amtrak train that missed her by inches and went into emergency breaking mode stopping while they made sure no one was underneath the train.  Law enforcement got the video tape was able to track down the girl and bring her to court for trespassing etc.

Personally I could never get into train watching (but if we pick up any of these mission, would assist with radio communications support) but airplane watching at an airport or appropriate runway approach zone (as well as monitoring the appropriate radio frequencies "on scene" and at home) is a hobby that I enjoy. :angel:
RM
       

[ol'fido]

I seem to remember that in the late '90s National was pushing some sort of program where CAP pilots would fly or drop in to local airports and ask about "suspicious activities". In fact, it may have been called "Operation Drop In" and was part of the national CD program. As I recall, it was not popular with many CAP members and was definitely not popular with the GA community who did not appreciate being asked a lot of questions by people who weren't the FAA or regular police while they were out enjoying some quiet weekend flying.

[Flying Pig]

^Yeah I remember that.  A bunch of civilians with no authority to do anything, walking around in uniforms questioning people.  As if the local police couldnt do it.
It ranks right up there with the CD people who were wearing patches on their flight suits that said "Counter Narcotics Flight Crew" that had a picture of an MJ leaf with a red line through it.

[RiverAux]

^Yeah I remember that.  A bunch of civilians with no authority to do anything, walking around in uniforms questioning people.  As if the local police couldnt do it.

I never thought that program was ever a particularly good fit for CAP, but the local police are not likely to be spending much time doing it either. 

[PHall]

IIRC, the AOPA had some real heartburn with the "Drop In" program.

[bosshawk]

Actually, Drop In was an FAA program, looking for planes with certain, noted tail numbers and those that looked like they had come from unimproved airstrips.  I actually flew one with an FAA security guy with me.  You are right, it went over with the GA crowd like a lead weight and was soon terminated.  If I recall, CD crews were utilized because they had gone through the usual LE screening, while most other CAP crews had not.

[JC004]

The information was published on a railroad hobbyists site/list server that was discussing using railroad hobbyists as a security assistance due to the large amount of track and staffing issues ALL railroads face.  It also named other railroad lines and what they were doing.

My lord...

Yes.

Would they build model train sets around the tracks or something?

[Flying Pig]

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• Image and video sharing
  Real-time motion detection
  Mesh data links (3G, 4G, satellite, microwave)
  Analytics, GIS video database, image enhancement
  NVG displays

Get the SkyFusion Pak
A turnkey system, SkyFusion Pak is a breaththrough in value, portability and functionality.

• STC approved for helicopters and small aircraft
  3 hours initial install
  Lightweight: only 7 pounds
  Email pictures to mobile phones
  Video streaming via 3G
  Track vehicles from 5,000 AGL

I am setting up a demo with the company through work.  I am interested in their mapping system, since I already have the camera.  They have a 182 that is fully equipped so when they do a demo, you actually get to touch it and operate it.  Ill let you all know how it goes.

[RADIOMAN015]

Well it looks to me like that any airborne observations would be very difficult to spot track problems unless some sort of electronic/optic device in the aircraft could automatically spot this.

Maybe ground forces "Track Watch" programs may be the way to go, BUT the railroad definitely would not want non employees walking their tracks to look for problems.  Likely it may just be a program such as AMTRAK has.

Likely it will be rail fan hobbyists that may be of the most help to the railroads BUT here again CAP does need new ground type missions, but will be challenged by definitions as to what is observation versus surveillance.
RM 

[Flying Pig]

Personally, I dont think its anything CAP needs to be involved in. Railroads already do their own track patrols and maintenance. State Police or other LE agencies can/may/do patrol tracks if needed. Railroads have their own dedicated LE agencies already. Let BNSF buy their own 172 and patrol their own tracks vs the tax payer footing the bill. If it becomes a real issue then I think Law Enforcment needs to handle it.  AMTRAK has aircraft as Im sure the others do as well.  I know CAPers love to look at potential assignments but I dont believe patrolling tracks needs to be one of them at this point.


http://police.amtrak.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkAgbLM2eqY
http://www.unionpacific.jobs/careers/apply/descr.cfm?REQN_NBR=056690

[RADIOMAN015]

Personally, I dont think its anything CAP needs to be involved in. Railroads already do their own track patrols and maintenance. State Police or other LE agencies can/may/do patrol tracks if needed. Railroads have their own dedicated LE agencies already. Let BNSF buy their own 172 and patrol their own tracks vs the tax payer footing the bill. If it becomes a real issue then I think Law Enforcment needs to handle it.  AMTRAK has aircraft as Im sure the others do as well.  I know CAPers love to look at potential assignments but I dont believe patrolling tracks needs to be one of them at this point.


http://police.amtrak.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkAgbLM2eqY
http://www.unionpacific.jobs/careers/apply/descr.cfm?REQN_NBR=056690

I do understand your concern and also what would be Civil Air Patrol's effectiveness in performing these type of "patrols".  (Also some public safety officials see any volunteer effort as cutting into their potential overtime in a homeland security overtime/special detail gig), HOWEVER, regardless of the recruiting videos, their police/security forces are basically working the railroad yards where trains are stopped and very little track patrols, and as the video shows grade crossing accident investigations.  There just isn't the staffing to adequately cover the entire track right of way.  In the end they are going to have to depend upon some sort of citizen's watch program.

BTW The US Army Reserve actually has railroad units and they usually train (pun huh?) on local railroad tracks with rented locomotives.   Part of their training is rail security.

RM       

[ol'fido]

Let's boil this down to logistics. You know the old military saw, "Amateurs study strategy and tactics, but professionals study logistics." There are approx. 140,500 miles of Class 1 track in the U.S. There are three(3) other classes of track in the country as well. If we just patrolled the Class 1 track on a daily basis using every aircraft in the inventory(+ or - 550), each of those aircraft would have to patrol approx. 255 miles of track or about a 2-3 hr sortie/aircraft/day. If we added the Class 2 and 3 tracks, this would probably double those hours flown. So about every 2-3 weeks, the entire fleet would have to go through a 100 hour inspection at (how much per aircraft, come on pilots help me here).With our budgets woes of the last few years, I don't think the AF is ready to pay for that much maintenance to patrol railroads for minimal effect.

[Flying Pig]

Personally, I dont think its anything CAP needs to be involved in. Railroads already do their own track patrols and maintenance. State Police or other LE agencies can/may/do patrol tracks if needed. Railroads have their own dedicated LE agencies already. Let BNSF buy their own 172 and patrol their own tracks vs the tax payer footing the bill. If it becomes a real issue then I think Law Enforcment needs to handle it.  AMTRAK has aircraft as Im sure the others do as well.  I know CAPers love to look at potential assignments but I dont believe patrolling tracks needs to be one of them at this point.


http://police.amtrak.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkAgbLM2eqY
http://www.unionpacific.jobs/careers/apply/descr.cfm?REQN_NBR=056690

I do understand your concern and also what would be Civil Air Patrol's effectiveness in performing these type of "patrols". (Also some public safety officials see any volunteer effort as cutting into their potential overtime in a homeland security overtime/special detail gig), HOWEVER, regardless of the recruiting videos, their police/security forces are basically working the railroad yards where trains are stopped and very little track patrols, and as the video shows grade crossing accident investigations.  There just isn't the staffing to adequately cover the entire track right of way.  In the end they are going to have to depend upon some sort of citizen's watch program.

BTW The US Army Reserve actually has railroad units and they usually train (pun huh?) on local railroad tracks with rented locomotives.   Part of their training is rail security.

RM       

Yeah, thats a line CAP members like to use when they try to justify a program....."But we are free."  But in reality its far from the case.  But good job on trying to discredit the reasons we in LE have chosen our profession.  Yes, we prefer not to use volunteers because we want the OT. :clap: Thinking this would be done on OT really shows your level of understanding about how this would work.  But good job trying to play the part.  Again, if there is a threat, the railroads will be the first to protect their own infrastructure.  Being that its how they make their living.  Once they actually decide that patrolling the rails from the air is needed, youll see them start doing it.

[Flying Pig]

........and let me add,  Ill be the first to admit that air support is often one of the most over used assets available.  I think patrolling tracks from a Cessna 182 at 1000AGL would be a complete waste of time for anyone to do it.

[RADIOMAN015]

Let's boil this down to logistics. You know the old military saw, "Amateurs study strategy and tactics, but professionals study logistics." There are approx. 140,500 miles of Class 1 track in the U.S. There are three(3) other classes of track in the country as well. If we just patrolled the Class 1 track on a daily basis using every aircraft in the inventory(+ or - 550), each of those aircraft would have to patrol approx. 255 miles of track or about a 2-3 hr sortie/aircraft/day. If we added the Class 2 and 3 tracks, this would probably double those hours flown. So about every 2-3 weeks, the entire fleet would have to go through a 100 hour inspection at (how much per aircraft, come on pilots help me here).With our budgets woes of the last few years, I don't think the AF is ready to pay for that much maintenance to patrol railroads for minimal effect.

Very good analysis, BUT it shows the difficult of ANY air support in providing patrols.  The cost of helicopters are extreme, how many flying hours can you get on a budget with that platform .   Now from my perspective did the American people really need to know what was in those terrorist potential plans    Don't you think that this puts pressure on the various political levels to do "something" (e.g. homeland security "drama"), and also don't you think that to a certain extent terrorism is successful because it does put fear into what "might happen on the train" and results in additional expenditures for visible security protection    Does the current protection employed really protect the daily & recreational train riders   Hopefully we've got real good intelligence to know when & where BUT this is a daunting task to protect every mile of commuter & passenger rail train tracks
RM

[RADIOMAN015]

Yeah, thats a line CAP members like to use when they try to justify a program....."But we are free."  But in reality its far from the case.  But good job on trying to discredit the reasons we in LE have chosen our profession.  Yes, we prefer not to use volunteers because we want the OT. :clap: Thinking this would be done on OT really shows your level of understanding about how this would work.  But good job trying to play the part.  Again, if there is a threat, the railroads will be the first to protect their own infrastructure.  Being that its how they make their living.  Once they actually decide that patrolling the rails from the air is needed, youll see them start doing it.

Of course public safety officers want overtime (recently a regional newspaper published some of the overtime pay versus the base salary, and also mentioned that it helps boost the officer's retirement in some states/communities -- gee I wish those military warriors could get a boost in their retirement for what they've gone through in a war zone ), and don't you think in some wings with any talks with state officials have to be carefully framed so that CAP doesn't take anything away (or appear to be taking away) from public safety employees.  HOWEVER, I agree with you that CAP may very well be ineffective in this mission.  Also I do have respect for any public safety official, BUT it is what it is, and I know what I observe now and what happen right after "9/11".

HOWEVER, the railroads are not prepared (for this type of patrol duty) with the number of police/security officers they have either so they will either look to some private security firms to assist OR will ask local police departments (that really don't have the money in their budgets to do this because I already know this working in a facility weekdays next to the tracks and talking with our local town police officer that patrols our sector).   There's really only so many police officers on duty in any community or even the state (and in some places county) and if they start getting lots of calls for suspicious activity on the tracks and have to continually respond, it is going to have an affect on every community.  So likely there will be political pressure for some sort of homeland security grant going on this one :angel:     
RM

[ol'fido]

Sweet mother of Mercy!! Take the friggin' BUS!!! Done!

[Flying Pig]

Whenever someone tries to make an argument about a certain pay scales in public safety professions, they always go with the, "Wow, I wish the military members overseas separated from their families and getting blown up could make what what cops make. "  Sorry, its a tired comparison.  However, any of those vets are more than welcome to apply to law enforcement when they separate from service.  Just like I did.

As far as railroad patrol goes, I think its a daunting task.  I think for real security though, like I said previously, airplanes motoring up and down the tracks will do nothing.  I regularly fly rail lines at 500 AGL and below in a helicopter when Im just flying patrol.  Not patrolling the rail lines particularly, just being proactive in my patrol area between calls for service from the ground guys, and believe me, there are A LOT of people, vehicles and debris on rail lines.  Without the ability to literally land immediately and address an issue, its a waste of time.  But the cost of using a helicopter would be outrageous and CAP doesnt even have them.  And to have the ability or authority to land and contact people we determined might be "suspicious" enough to warrant being contacted would be something far out of the scope of CAP anyway.  So in my opinion, if your going to look at aviation as a possible patrol method, it needs to be done in helicopters, staffed by cops with guns.  Many might point to CD as a similarity, however, keeping details out of the post, it trust me, it wouldnt be the same.

[blackrain]

I come back after a few days in the field and this thread has taken off   (pardon the pun)  Do any railroads use remotely operated track inspection vehichles?

As much as I love getting flying missions for CAP, I have to say that unless someone got lucky and caught the bad guys in the actual act of sabotage, an aircraft is just too high and fast to see most cases of a sabotaged track.

[PHall]

Railroad tracks are usually inspected by a track maintenance person in a pick up truck that is equipped to run on the rails.
It's pretty much the Mark I eyeball and what the seat of your pants tells you.

[jimmydeanno]

Whenever someone tries to make an argument about a certain pay scales in public safety professions, they always go with the, "Wow, I wish the military members overseas separated from their families and getting blown up could make what what cops make. "  Sorry, its a tired comparison.  However, any of those vets are more than welcome to apply to law enforcement when they separate from service.  Just like I did.

Of course the use of volunteers to replace overtime for paid professionals is going to cause some heartburn with those paid professionals.  In my last wing, we got picked up to do fire patrols for the state forest.  Traditionally, they had towers on top of the mountains with a paid forestry guy who would stand watch for fires.

A few weeks after CAP was contracted to do the work, there were a bunch of news articles about the state laying off those fire tower workers.  With that, a rift was developed. 

Overtime pay is a serious draw for people that its available to.  I have a few LE friends who can double, or even triple their base salaries each year by picking up OT shifts.  If those went away, they'd have a serious financial issue.  If it was because a group of volunteers did it, I can almost guarantee that the LE types making the decision on whether or not to use volunteers would hesitate to do so in the future.

Sadly, you just can't mess with people's paychecks and expect a good reaction.

[NIN]

I was reading a thing about airborne track inspection the other day in a helicopter magazine (A coffee & a magazine at Borders is a great way to blow an hour or two on a Saturday while your kid is at a birthday party).  Basically, they're using FLIR-type systems from helicopters and fixed wing aircraft in some places (Europe?) to do both track and cantenary-wire inspections (especially when there is electrical power distribution occurring, because a problem is usually indicated by a heat source).

Unfortunately, the Mk I, Mod 0 eyeball at 100kts and 1000 ft AGL is probably not the best thing to look for "sabotage."  Unless Mr. I-Hate-Americans is digging holes in the track bed to emplace an IED or removing entire lengths of track, its going to be hard to see most forms of track sabotage from the air.

Many years ago there was a system that the MI ARNG was helping to test on the Cp Grayling ranges (this would be pre-1995, as I was in the ARNG at the time) that did some kind of "airborne scene change detection" both in the visible and non-visible spectrums.  Somehow they'd fly over an area and image the place, and then fly over the next day and the system would be able to pick out the "differences" even if they did not fly exactly the same track, heading, etc.

I wish I could recall the contractor or the system. I seem to recall they had this on a fixed wing aircraft, but I don't recall if it was like a King Air or a Herk.

But in any event, that kind of a system, which detects minute changes in an environment, would be key to that sort of surveillance.  Physically fixed objects like electrical poles, RR tracks and that sort of thing would make great reference points for any sort of computer-based correlation of image data.  Its not like a phone pole moves between days.

And its probably way, way outside what CAP would be willing to support, either financially or operationally.

[Major Carrales]

Railroad sabotage would be very subtle.  It might require pulling spikes on a large section of rail (lots of which is continuous welded rail and would be hard to see), messing with tie plates and rail joiners and maintaining the electrical current that serves as a warning.  Take note...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Palo_Verde,_Arizona_derailment


If someone was out there, and committed these acts, they would not be obvious from an aircraft.  The situation would most likely be one where some group was "caught in the act."  At which time CAP would simply report suspicious activity along the track from the Railroad Police or other authorities to handle. 

By the way: They never caught the "Sons of the Gestapo", if they existed at all. 

[ProdigalJim]

Just as a point of information on this thread, here's a summary (not verbatim) of what Amtrak Chairman Joe Boardman told a Senate Appropriations subcommittee yesterday, during a hearing on fiscal 2012 rail funding, on security-related issues:

>>I'd like to start by addressing the security concerns raised by the intel capture in the Osama bin Laden raid.  Amtrak currently works with RailPol, an international, interagency policing taskforce.  We use this relationship to keep abreast of cutting edge security.  Amtrak is most concerned about an external attack at a vulnerable point—a bridge or tunnel.  Looking at systems that would allow us to detect track tampering.<<

Answering Sen. Patty Murray (again, notes, not verbatim):

>> "Very strong" relationship with Dept. of Homeland Security, with "almost daily talks."  Amtrak received $200 million in security grants.  We've used a large portion to expand the K-9 program.  See something, say something.  Actually provided police and security in Alabama during this year's storms.  Continue to regularly engage in irregular screening.  No-ride list is hard; Amtrak handles 600-700k commuters on a weekday.   <<

Sen. Susan Collins asked what can be done to monitor exposed sections of rail. Boardman replied:

>> There is a laser technology that can be attached to locomotives, allowing them to monitor the soundness and gauge of rail, detect any tampering.  This has only been proposed for 40mph operations, which works for freight trains but not passenger.  R&D money is needed to explore these possibilities.  Amtrak has already categorized vulnerable points in our network after 9/11.  We have routine patrols of these areas. <<

Asked about relying more on local LE resources, Boardman answered:

>> There is room for improvement there.  But trains are dangerous, and even well-trained crews have lost their lives working around tracks.  Need to make sure that people on our right-of-ways have the right kind of training. <<

[RADIOMAN015]

>>I'd like to start by addressing the security concerns raised by the intel capture in the Osama bin Laden raid.  Amtrak currently works with RailPol, an international, interagency policing taskforce.  We use this relationship to keep abreast of cutting edge security.  Amtrak is most concerned about an external attack at a vulnerable point—a bridge or tunnel.  Looking at systems that would allow us to detect track tampering.<<


Asked about relying more on local LE resources, Boardman answered:

>> There is room for improvement there.  But trains are dangerous, and even well-trained crews have lost their lives working around tracks.  Need to make sure that people on our right-of-ways have the right kind of training. <<

The bottom line on this is you can do all you want with track security but some guy with a rocket launcher can hide in the woods and with a simple portable scanner listen to the train dispatcher and have a very good idea when the train the going to be in his area and just step out prior to the train passing and shoot some rockets at the passenger cars as the train goes buy.   There's nothing also not to prevent an airborne attack with small aircraft with small bombs --

It looks to me like this is going to be more money diverted into security systems that will be marginal at best.  Unfortunately that is why terrorism is partially successful because more of our limited national resources are allocated to security systems.  BTW with Israel's great security systems, it still hasn't stopped attacks completely.
IF you take any public transportation, pay attention to your surroundings (however certain attacks at the night time likely you wouldn't even see).
RM