Written orders

[RiverAux]

In the federal laws regarding workplace injuries that applies to CAP when we are on AFAMs, I recently noticed this section:
Title 5, Section 8141

) "performance of duty" means only active service, and travel to and from that service, rendered in performance or support of operational missions of the Civil Air Patrol under direction of the Department of the Air Force and under written authorization by competent authority covering a specific assignment and prescribing a time limit for the assignment; and

Now, I read this to say that we're not covered for injuries or death by the feds unless there are written orders laying around someplace assigning us to duty for a specific period of time.  I have been in CAP for a long time and I have never seen a written set of orders for any AFAMs that I've been on.  We sign-in to missions, but that isn't the same thing as written authorization for me specifically to be on a mission.

So, anyone see a problem here? 

Now, the other thing that has been discussed here is the apparent desire of CAP and/or the AF to deny such coverage whenever any regulation violations, even if un-related to the accident itself, occured.  While I'm not a lawyer and didn't do a super extensive search on this, I don't see anything in the federal law that would, for example, let them deny coverage to an injured CAP member just because they had the wrong uniform on.  The law makes no reference to any specific CAP regulations and only discusses whether or not the person was on duty or not.  Maybe someone else can provide some illumination on this.

By the way, the CAP regs certainly would make a difference if it was an injury while on CAP-only duty and you were trying to make a claim against CAP's own insurance as opposed to the federals workers comp process. 

[floridacyclist]

I would say that the paperwork initiating an AF mission along with your name on the sign-in form would suffice as written orders.  The AF mission paperwork tells folks where and what to do and the sign-in sheet tells who all was involved.

[RiverAux]

Have you ever actually seen the paperwork though?  Most of the missions I've been on are initiated by a call from AFRCC.  I assume they have something written down, but it won't mention any CAP members other than the IC by name. 

I assume that we've been assuming the sign in sheet counts, but it certainly doesn't seem to follow the letter of the law even if they're honoring the spirit. 

[wingnut]

DANGER, DANGER, DANGER, WILL ROBINSON

GOOD QUESTION, I was told by my personnel office that if I had "WRITTEN PROOF" that I was on an assigned AFAM that they would grant me "PAID" Military leave. HOW CAN THIS BE DONE?? Well it is simple.

In the Military orders are cut at the local level.

The same applies for CAP, your Squadron CO should create a form letter in MS Word, he fills in the AFAM number the date of the AFAM and maybe some filler like, flying Search and Rescue Mission for the US Air Force etc, etc, and thats it. Of course the letter should be professional and if missused, well. . . I hope you get fired and the CO shot.

It is a mystery how the Air Force knows who is on a mission, I suspect that it is not being "properly" maintained, I have heard of HORROR stories of CAP members getting injured and killed on duty and recieving nothing, I think this is a serious problem that NATIONAL HQ, and the WINGS are failing us on, as a former DOJ federal employee I can tell you if you get hurt on the job as a federal employee "IT"S A FINANCIAL NIGHTMARE". I am mad as hell about this, try to recruit a guy making $60,000 a year and explain what the procedurea are if he gets killed, or injured in the "LINE OF DUTY".   But some good news about that. . .

1. CAP members on a SAR or CD who are killed may be eligible for the FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AND FIREFIGHTER life insurance payment (I think about $250,000)
2. Some states have an additional life insurance for Emergency Service Workers
3. California provides workers Comp for """REGISTERED""" CAP ES workers. (MYSTERY AS TO HOW MUCH)
4. CAP members on an AFAM are entitled to FEDERAL Workers Comp is for a GS-9 (about  2,300-3000/month tax free)  GEE GUYS PILOTS ARE GS-11 to GS-13s now (WORKERS COMP $3,300 to 4,300 per month) lets talk to our CAP Union REP about that (GEN PINEDA SIR) and what about the medical bills, who protects you from an ignorant GS 3 clerk that denies you benifits,??
5. BAD NEWS!!! none of your LIFE INSURANCE IS ANY GOOD IF KILLED OR INJURED ON AN AFAM or flying in a civilian aircraft (BUT PLEASE CHECK!!! if you don,t believe me) read the fine print under MILITARY exclusions. YES your family is up S%&@ creek!!! but hey you do it for God and Country (your kids are homeless now)

OK GUYS BEFORE YOU RIP ME: First: we are not the CAP of my dads day, he flew his Piper Pacer on  lots of missions with paid time off from the Fed Govt. The new CAP is much more professional, I am a professional who cannot take off from work with out vacation time or sick leave, I can get 15 days military leave, SO thats for CAP. In return I attend more training per month than I ever did in the reserves (twice as much) I buy all my uniforms and PERSONAL SAFETY EQUIPMENT) and pay for most of my own PERDIEM while on a mission for that the UNITED STATES gets free SKILLED MILITARY AIRCREWS.  Talking about an all volunteer  service, and not to mention our all important ELT free maintenance service for those "SHMUCKS" who can't turn off their ELTS (SORRY I DIGRESS) I think there should be a $1,000 fine for ELTS turned off at 3:00am 

[RiverAux]

The workers comp in your point 4 is what I was referring to.  The workers comp law is the one requiring written orders for a specific period of time. 

The written orders you got for time off are a different, but related issue. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

You make a valid point, River.

I am not sure what legal validity unit orders are, but as an old Army type, I would ALWAYS cut a set of unit orders for any mission that involved movement from home station.  This would be for training actual.  In the event of an actual, I'd do the orders AFTER the mission, annotating the order to indicate that it:  "Confirms the Verbal Order of the Commander."

I don't have the order format on my disc anymore, but basically it was a letterhead order, with an order number consisting of the 2-digit year and up to three digits for a sequential order number.  (If I get more than 999 missions a year, I'm gonna ask for overtime!)  I'd put a line in to specify the period.  In the case of an exercise, I'd know the period of time up front.  In the case of an actual, I'd write the order after the mission, so I'd know how long it lasted.

The text was simple:

The Civil Air Patrol unit indicated above, and the members listed in Attachment 1 are ordered to active duty as an Auxiliary of the United States Air Force for the period indicated above.

Purpose:  To participate in Exercise GLR-OH-xx-XXX

Uniform:  BDU

Coordinating Instructions:  Members are to report with all field equipment to HQ,  OH-289, NLT 0600 XX Jan 20XX.  Members will be in possession of ID, CAP Form 101/101-T, and CAP Form 60, (2 copies).  Aircrew will be in possession of FAA Pilot license and medical.  Ground Rescue Personnel will possess First Aid Cards, ROA Cards, and CAP driver's license (as appropriate).  Unit and members will be under the command of the Mission Commander for the duration of the mission.


OFFICIAL:


Signature Block

Like I said, I don't know the legal status of such an order, but I knew that SOME document was needed to get things rolling.  plus, this worked for guys who needed documentation to get out of work.

[RiverAux]

That would probably work in the situation where you're wanting time off from work (if you're in a state lucky enough to have such a law). 

But, I wonder if it would count in terms of federal workers comp.  To be valid the order would have to come from someone authorized to issue it.  Would that need to be an IC for a mission or someone in the normal chain of command. 

This is also a little bit of an issue over in CG Aux which is why I brought it up here.  They are also a little wishy washy on confirmation of orders putting you on duty.  Their regs state who has the authority to do so, but in practice for many self-directed activities (such as taking safety brochures to be displayed at a sporting good store), the common practice is for the person who will be doing it to just notify the proper order-issuing authority that they are going to do it at a certain date and time.  Basically, the member tells them when they are going to be on duty.  For more formal missions such as patrols there are actual written orders issued. 

[wingnut]

Good Job Guys
I think we need to direct this directly to management, it is a very important issue that is being avoided (WHY), The CAP regulations are clear as to what a Corporate Mission is and AFAM, BUT!!  it is like reading the fine line about MILITARY missions for personal life insurance. I remember my dad crashing his plane on a CAP mission in the early 70s, and to cover the bill he told the insurance company he was flying for fun (Load of crap), I know we can pay extra for CAP airplane insurance coverage.  But a more proactive support of memebers really needs to be addressed at a CAP national level since it covers all the states, it is kind of like when you accept a mission the AF  via (Wing)will get around to paying you for gas in 2 to 4 months, or when CAP corporate is charging an agency for flight time but not covering the CAP aircrews living expenses if we have to spend the night in a hotel. I mean it comes down to SUPPORT OF THE TEAM, so the AIR Force, or whom ever pays an extra 10 Dollars an hour/ flight hour or maybe 100 dollars for an overnighter for a Crew of 2.

Bottom Line: It costs the US Air Force over $2,000 hour to operate a Blackhawk, and $4,000 per hour for a C-130. Let me do the math. . . hmm, oh and a full time active duty crew of 5 is over  $650,000 per year. . .  hmm let me do the math!

And gee the USAF is cutting 40,000 active duty personnel over the next 5 years. Do they need CAP???  hmmm let me do the math. . .

Lets take care of the TEAM

[JohnKachenmeister]

River:

The IC usually issues a written order for the mission, but there would not be a by-name listing until the sign-in roster were completed.  That's why I would issue a local order, which, I guess, is actually a supplement to the IC's mission order, to cover the movement to the exercise and back.

Like I said, I don't know where the authority to issue such an order lies, but I know that IF I had an injury or accident enroute, I'd at least LOOK like I knew what I was doing with an order.

And looking good is half the battle! 

[RiverAux]

The IC usually issues a written order for the mission,

That must be a local thing because outside of SAREXs I am unaware of any written orders ever being issued for actual missions in my Wing. 

[Eclipse]

The IC usually issues a written order for the mission,

That must be a local thing because outside of SAREXs I am unaware of any written orders ever being issued for actual missions in my Wing. 

We had written orders for Katrina...

[JohnKachenmeister]

The IC usually issues a written order for the mission,

That must be a local thing because outside of SAREXs I am unaware of any written orders ever being issued for actual missions in my Wing. 

My bad, River.  I was speaking only of exercises.  I don't know if the IC writes a mission order or not on actuals.  I'd issue a unit order to have a local record of what the mission number was and who showed up.  It only took a minute once I put the format on the disc, and "Attachment 1" was a photocopy of the sign-in roster.

I don't know if it had any legal authority of any kind or not.  I never had to face that challenge.

And, I've never seen a regulation that said a commander CAN'T give an order to persons in his unit.

[Hotel 179]

Hello All,

When a mission comes in down here in Baldwin County, the Wing Alerting Officer calls me and lets me know what the mission is.  He'll give the mission number and all the details that he knows at the time.  I start the call-out and log the crews on the ICS214.  If I'm flying, I'll rely on squadron folks to stay in contact with IC for periodic reporting. I also use the bottom section for the after-action report.

When it is all over, I pass the CAPF122 to AFRCC.  They don't want names, but ask for number of personnel and flight times, etc....you've probably seen the form.

I open or cause the missions to opened in WMIRS.  At the end of the mission, I assemble the CAPF104s, 109s and input the information in WMIRS to close the mission.  These forms are saved locally and sent to the IC as an email attachment.

Pretty painless. 

Stephen

[RiverAux]

Thats pretty much how all the real missions I know about have been run.  However, I'm not sure it is in accordance with the letter of the workers comp law for CAP which seems to demand actual orders not just sign-in sheets. 

I assume that the sign-in sheet system has been working but it seems like the sort of thing that if the feds wanted to make a stink and deny a CAP member coverage they would probably be on firm ground unless there was something saying: "Lt. Smith, Maj. Jones, and Capt. Barnes are ordered to CAP duty on 1 Jan 2006 on AFAM ##### for a period not to exceen 3 days."

[afgeo4]

DANGER, DANGER, DANGER, WILL ROBINSON

GOOD QUESTION, I was told by my personnel office that if I had "WRITTEN PROOF" that I was on an assigned AFAM that they would grant me "PAID" Military leave. HOW CAN THIS BE DONE?? Well it is simple.

In the Military orders are cut at the local level.

The same applies for CAP, your Squadron CO should create a form letter in MS Word, he fills in the AFAM number the date of the AFAM and maybe some filler like, flying Search and Rescue Mission for the US Air Force etc, etc, and thats it. Of course the letter should be professional and if missused, well. . . I hope you get fired and the CO shot.

It is a mystery how the Air Force knows who is on a mission, I suspect that it is not being "properly" maintained, I have heard of HORROR stories of CAP members getting injured and killed on duty and recieving nothing, I think this is a serious problem that NATIONAL HQ, and the WINGS are failing us on, as a former DOJ federal employee I can tell you if you get hurt on the job as a federal employee "IT"S A FINANCIAL NIGHTMARE". I am mad as hell about this, try to recruit a guy making $60,000 a year and explain what the procedurea are if he gets killed, or injured in the "LINE OF DUTY".   But some good news about that. . .

1. CAP members on a SAR or CD who are killed may be eligible for the FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AND FIREFIGHTER life insurance payment (I think about $250,000)
2. Some states have an additional life insurance for Emergency Service Workers
3. California provides workers Comp for """REGISTERED""" CAP ES workers. (MYSTERY AS TO HOW MUCH)
4. CAP members on an AFAM are entitled to FEDERAL Workers Comp is for a GS-9 (about  2,300-3000/month tax free)  GEE GUYS PILOTS ARE GS-11 to GS-13s now (WORKERS COMP $3,300 to 4,300 per month) lets talk to our CAP Union REP about that (GEN PINEDA SIR) and what about the medical bills, who protects you from an ignorant GS 3 clerk that denies you benifits,??
5. BAD NEWS!!! none of your LIFE INSURANCE IS ANY GOOD IF KILLED OR INJURED ON AN AFAM or flying in a civilian aircraft (BUT PLEASE CHECK!!! if you don,t believe me) read the fine print under MILITARY exclusions. YES your family is up S%&@ creek!!! but hey you do it for God and Country (your kids are homeless now)

OK GUYS BEFORE YOU RIP ME: First: we are not the CAP of my dads day, he flew his Piper Pacer on  lots of missions with paid time off from the Fed Govt. The new CAP is much more professional, I am a professional who cannot take off from work with out vacation time or sick leave, I can get 15 days military leave, SO thats for CAP. In return I attend more training per month than I ever did in the reserves (twice as much) I buy all my uniforms and PERSONAL SAFETY EQUIPMENT) and pay for most of my own PERDIEM while on a mission for that the UNITED STATES gets free SKILLED MILITARY AIRCREWS.  Talking about an all volunteer  service, and not to mention our all important ELT free maintenance service for those "SHMUCKS" who can't turn off their ELTS (SORRY I DIGRESS) I think there should be a $1,000 fine for ELTS turned off at 3:00am 

1. CAP members are NOT eligible for military employee benefits. The federal law protects Reserve and National Guard members on federal active duty ONLY. Some states have labor laws protecting State Military forces personnel called to state active duty as well. Not one state or federal law protects us from job loss due to duty in CAP.  Remember, we are a CORPORATION, not the military, and thus are not mandated to active duty.  Because we aren't required to go on any mission, we do not need employment protection by the government. If you cannot perform the duty because of work, then go to work. CAP will find someone else or turn down the mission. That's how volunteering goes.  Now you may be able to cheat your company by showing them CAP papers for missions and by fooling them into believing you're in the military, but... INTEGRITY is part of our membership and I'd advise you to stick to that.  Also, once they do catch on to this you may be facing angry HR people and perhaps even termination from your job.

2. Federal Law Enforcement and Firefighter life insurance is set up for professional law enforcement, firefighter, and SAR personnel, which we are not. CAP is NOT covered by this insurance at this time.

3. Which regulation/manual/pamphlet talks about Federal Workers Comp for CAP members? I've never seen such a document.

4. We are covered for $250,000 life insurance upon death while performing an Air Force issued mission. Your own life insurance may not (military exclusions cover military personnel, which we are not) cover such an instance, but the government will.

Now, I understand that you were told all this by a personnel officer, so perhaps you may want to correct that officer or at least verify his/her statements with NHQ or its documents. 

As far as paper orders go...

USAF issues orders to commence a mission for CAP (that's how a mission number is generated).  Under the USAF/CAP MOU, those orders stipulate that all CAP personnel performing that mission are covered. The duty roster signed at mission base will serve as documents proving your participation and by their virtue become part of the orders.  The original orders issued by the AFRCC will stay in the AFRCC building for their records and will not be seen by CAP personnel out in the field. CAP does not issue orders as far as I know since we cannon order our members to active or inactive duty. We're all volunteers and can turn down any assignment we choose to without legal reprocussions while military orders carry the weight of the UCMJ behind them and cannot be disregarded.

[RiverAux]

Not one state or federal law protects us from job loss due to duty in CAP.

Not actually the case.  There are several states that mandate employers (usually state,city,local government employees) give a certain amount of time off for CAP work and that such time off can't be held against them. 

I'm working on a comprehensive list of such state laws which will be posted later, but for now I can tell you that Arizona, Arkansas, California, Iowa, and Louisiana have some version of leave requirements for CAP members, some of which as stated above protect their jobs.  However, I haven't seen any state law that gives full job protection to everybody as is given to NG members. 

Which regulation/manual/pamphlet talks about Federal Workers Comp for CAP members? I've never seen such a document.

See the federal law I quoted at the beginning of the thread.  It is also in CAP regulations, I don't have the specific reference handy at this time. 

[wingnut]

Now thats the problem with CAP when the recruiting officer has not a clue as to what the regs are and the fact that if your killed on a corporate mission your screwed (well your dead so your family is screwed). . .


Per Titles 10 and 36, USC; CAP members on AFAM status are assets deemed an instrumentality of the United States by the Secretary of the Air Force.  AFAux/CAP is authorized, when directed by the Secretary of the Air Force to fulfill any non-combat mission of the Air Force.  When the CAP operates in an AFAux status, it is an Air Force federal military activity. ( USAF Doctrine Doc 2-10; 21 March 2006, Joint Publication 3-26, Joint Doctrine for Homeland Security).

So here is what the CAP Knowledgebase has (Do you have a computer?)

Federal Employees' Compensation Act (FECA) provides for the payment of worker's compensation benefits to civilian officers and employees of all branches of the Government of the United States. FECA has been extended to provide worker's compensation benefits to CAP volunteers or their survivors for injuries or death resulting from injuries sustained in performance of duty while in service to the United States. If a CAP member is injured or killed during performance of an Air Force Assigned Mission (AFAM), the member, or proper dependent, could submit a FECA claim. http://level2.cap.gov/visitors/programs/general_counsel/feca_federal_employees_compensation_act_brochure.cfm  (copy this Brochure for recruiting)

Corporate missions do not provide coverage for members under the Federal Employee Compensation Act (FECA). Therefore, if an injury or death occurs during a corporate mission, the only medical or death benefits available to the member or his/her family are corporate benefits as discussed in CAPR 900-5, namely a $10,000 death benefit and up to $6,000 medical expenses, subject to a $50 deductible. There is no Federal Tort Claims Act (FTCA) coverage on a corporate mission. If a non-members' property is damaged, or a non-member is injured during a corporate mission, CAP's liability insurance will cover CAP and the member in the event of a lawsuit against CAP or the member.


Another example (New Mexico State Law)20-7-5. Military leave. (1987)
Members of the civil air patrol shall be permitted military leave pursuant to Section 20-4-7 NMSA 1978 not to exceed fifteen working days per year for search and rescue missions. History: 1978 Comp., § 20-7-5, enacted by Laws 1987, ch. 318, § 51.

AS for federal Law enforcement and Firemans Act there is case law that awarded CAP Aircrew those benifits when killed on a CD mission in NC, indeed North Carolina passed a law that also specified CAP as being in the same catagory as Police and Fireman while on CAP missions. Same for California and several other states.

Iowa, Missouri. Arkansas all have laws on the books about military leave for CAP.

ALL I ASK is how does th AF know the names of the HUMAN BEINGS who are flying their MISSIONS, maybe we need to push the concept that we are not being treated as professionals by the people who are expecting us to fly like professionals, I should not have to ask, or request, or beg for a document that shows I was flying an Air Force search and rescue mission for four days in Arizona: THAT SHOULD BE A GIVEN at the least a FAX of an Official Document,  not an email from the IC, or a copy of the sign in sheet, now that sounds mickey mouse and unprofessional

[afgeo4]

Now thats the problem with CAP when the recruiting officer has not a clue as to what the regs are and the fact that if your killed on a corporate mission your screwed (well your dead so your family is screwed). . .


Per Titles 10 and 36, USC; CAP members on AFAM status are assets deemed an instrumentality of the United States by the Secretary of the Air Force.  AFAux/CAP is authorized, when directed by the Secretary of the Air Force to fulfill any non-combat mission of the Air Force.  When the CAP operates in an AFAux status, it is an Air Force federal military activity. ( USAF Doctrine Doc 2-10; 21 March 2006, Joint Publication 3-26, Joint Doctrine for Homeland Security).

So here is what the CAP Knowledgebase has (Do you have a computer?)

Federal Employees' Compensation Act (FECA) provides for the payment of worker's compensation benefits to civilian officers and employees of all branches of the Government of the United States. FECA has been extended to provide worker's compensation benefits to CAP volunteers or their survivors for injuries or death resulting from injuries sustained in performance of duty while in service to the United States. If a CAP member is injured or killed during performance of an Air Force Assigned Mission (AFAM), the member, or proper dependent, could submit a FECA claim. http://level2.cap.gov/visitors/programs/general_counsel/feca_federal_employees_compensation_act_brochure.cfm  (copy this Brochure for recruiting)

Corporate missions do not provide coverage for members under the Federal Employee Compensation Act (FECA). Therefore, if an injury or death occurs during a corporate mission, the only medical or death benefits available to the member or his/her family are corporate benefits as discussed in CAPR 900-5, namely a $10,000 death benefit and up to $6,000 medical expenses, subject to a $50 deductible. There is no Federal Tort Claims Act (FTCA) coverage on a corporate mission. If a non-members' property is damaged, or a non-member is injured during a corporate mission, CAP's liability insurance will cover CAP and the member in the event of a lawsuit against CAP or the member.


Another example (New Mexico State Law)20-7-5. Military leave. (1987)
Members of the civil air patrol shall be permitted military leave pursuant to Section 20-4-7 NMSA 1978 not to exceed fifteen working days per year for search and rescue missions. History: 1978 Comp., § 20-7-5, enacted by Laws 1987, ch. 318, § 51.

AS for federal Law enforcement and Firemans Act there is case law that awarded CAP Aircrew those benifits when killed on a CD mission in NC, indeed North Carolina passed a law that also specified CAP as being in the same catagory as Police and Fireman while on CAP missions. Same for California and several other states.

Iowa, Missouri. Arkansas all have laws on the books about military leave for CAP.

ALL I ASK is how does th AF know the names of the HUMAN BEINGS who are flying their MISSIONS, maybe we need to push the concept that we are not being treated as professionals by the people who are expecting us to fly like professionals, I should not have to ask, or request, or beg for a document that shows I was flying an Air Force search and rescue mission for four days in Arizona: THAT SHOULD BE A GIVEN at the least a FAX of an Official Document,  not an email from the IC, or a copy of the sign in sheet, now that sounds mickey mouse and unprofessional

Absolutely... FECA compensation for life lost during USAF (only) issued mission is covered in my point #4.
Absence of FEDERAL police and firefighter life insurance is stated as well.  No comment on local ordnances in such matters.
Federal law does not protect CAP personnel from job loss due to activation or give you "military leave".  Some states may.  That doesn't mean all CAP members who are reading should believe they are protected.  It's just not the case here in NY for example.
As far as orders go... paperwork is submitted following an AFAC to Wing HQ listing all participants.  The form can be sent to you as well if you request it and can be used as proof of participation. It contains the Mission Number, name, grade of the person, date of mission, and mission brief.  The Air Force doesn't need to know the names of the human beings, that's what your incident chain of command is for.  CAP knows, that's what counts. If someone in USAF will want to know, they know where to get the names.

Now... if you could just read carefully what the recruiting officer actually wrote then you wouldn't feel like you stuck your foot in your mouth. 

FIY: Retention in CAP sucks for those who accuse officers and then are proven wrong. That's not a threat at all, but merely an observation, as a retention officer. I encourage you to make sure you comment without resorting to put downs in the future.

[wingnut]

well thats part of the problem here is some :Know it all trying to push everyone else around, nothing personal taken, its a free world and I am voicing my opinion that you are wrong and you should not use your position to justify your "Personal political opinion" this is a Blog,a Blog is for the exchange of ideas, not to be "reprimanded by the CAP thought police

[SarDragon]

[stuff redacted] hmm, oh and a full time active duty crew of 5 is over  $650,000 per year. . .  hmm let me do the math! [more stuff redacted]

Yeah, let's do some math here for a C-130 crew, using 2006 rates from here:

Pilot - Major, over 12, with BAH, BAS, ACIP, Flight Pay, and Combat Pay = 8148.49/mo

Copilot - Captain, over 8, with same pay and allowance items = 6228.89

Aircrew E-7, over 12, with same pay and allowance items (less ACIP) = 4624.56

Aircrew E-6, over 8 = 4139.66

Aircrew E-5, over 6 = 3627.86

Add that all up and multiply times 12 and we get 322433.50/yr for what I consider to be a typical C-130 Crew.

Just in case any of the positions are terribly out of whack, let's make the entire crew Colonels over 20, and we get 10813.19 times 5 times 12 to give us 648791.40

You got better numbers?

I don't discount your idea, but let's try using better researched numbers.

well thats part of the problem here is some :Know it all trying to push everyone else around, nothing personal taken, its a free world and I am voicing my opinion that you are wrong and you should not use your position to justify your "Personal political opinion" this is a Blog,a Blog is for the exchange of ideas, not to be "reprimanded by the CAP thought police