Florida Wing is famous for their "sundown" patrols on the Gulf Coast...
Maryland Wing has their Bay Patrol and Bridge Patrol...
Connecticut Wing has their Long Island Sound Patrol...
...are any other coastal or Great Lakes wings doing this?
Message icon changed. Why the Grin? - MIKE
Doing the over water patrols would be a big help to the USCG. Not too long ago, there was a plane crash at the airport my unit meets at. A plane took off, then crashed into Lake Erie not too far from the actual airport. USCG was out there for days using sonar. Apparently they didn't want anything to do with us. We could have pinpointed the beacon, and saved them some money. As far as I know, there isn't too much over water patrols in Ohio. But I can't speak for Michigan (you did just say Great Lakes ;D)
Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on May 10, 2008, 11:28:27 PM
Doing the over water patrols would be a big help to the USCG.
Thats what USCG Aux Aviation is for. Does CAP even train its aircrew's for feet wet ops... 'cause the Aux does.
Quote from: MIKE on May 10, 2008, 11:33:32 PM
Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on May 10, 2008, 11:28:27 PM
Doing the over water patrols would be a big help to the USCG.
Thats what USCG Aux Aviation is for. Does CAP even train its aircrew's for feet wet ops... 'cause the Aux does.
I remember some water search training from Scanner/Observer training I believe. I don't see where it would hurt.
What I mean is water survival... Part of the qualification for the Aux is swim qual, and part of that is being able to board a life raft from the water.
I thought I was on the right track! Still, we could have saved them a lot of man hours in that particular seach.
Quote from: MIKE on May 10, 2008, 11:33:32 PM
Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on May 10, 2008, 11:28:27 PM
Doing the over water patrols would be a big help to the USCG.
Thats what USCG Aux Aviation is for. Does CAP even train its aircrew's for feet wet ops... 'cause the Aux does.
It'd be kinda silly if the USCG Aux didn't.....
I know for a number of years (and maybe still currently) NYWG was flying daily missions of the NYC watershed area... don't know if much of that actually went out over open water, though.
Hawaii Wing does overwater "patrols" between the islands.
They also have a Tsunami Warning mission from their State OES too.
Quote from: Turk on May 10, 2008, 11:24:38 PM
Florida Wing is famous for their "sundown" patrols on the Gulf Coast...
Maryland Wing has their Bay Patrol and Bridge Patrol...
Connecticut Wing has their Long Island Sound Patrol...
...are any other coastal or Great Lakes wings doing this?
Message icon changed. Why the Grin? - MIKE
Connecticut Wing is clearly in violation of our AOR. We are Long Island Group!
MSWG flies Sundown Patrol for USCG.
What's sundown patrol?
A flight late in the day when most boaters would already be back at the dock to make sure no one is in distress and stranded on the water.
As far as doing electronic searches, CG Aux Air would have to do it using the aircraft radio, which would add a degree of difficulty to the process. Since they are all privately owned aircraft, I suspect that very few have L-per or other similar equipment that could speed it up.
However, if the plane went down in the water the chances of the beacon being heard by an aircraft (assuming it activated in the first place and kept transmitting for long after the crash) are slim (though not impossible).
However, it is up to the CG who they would use in these situations and judging by how often they hand off probable shoreside ELT missions to CAP I doubt they would shy away from calling for CAP help if they thought it would be of use.
When I was in MEWG (early 70s), they did a sundown patrol. Not sure about now.
Only because I know the clientele of the memership of CapTalk.....
The regulation: 60-1 Feb 2008
2-19. Over-water Operations and Reconnaissance. CAP over-water missions require extra caution. For the purpose of this regulation, over-water operations are defined as any flight event conducted outside normal power off gliding distance of land. The reconnaissance phase of the mission will be flown IAW paragraph 2-18c (4) above. The confirmation phase will be flown no lower than 500 feet above the surface of the water. Flights are limited to within 50 nm of shore except for special operational missions approved by the NOC. On over-water flights (except short duration, such as takeoff and landing) each occupant will wear a U.S. Coast Guard or Department of Defense (DoD) approved individual flotation device. The aircraft will contain inflatable rafts of sufficient number and size to accommodate all occupants and will contain at least one pyrotechnic signaling device. Constant wear anti-exposure suits will be worn by crew members on any preplanned over-water flight when the water temperature is 60F or less. The wing commander may waive the requirement to wear the anti-exposure suit after reviewing appropriate risk management considerations such as the distance from land that the aircraft is required to operate. Any time an aircraft is operating outside gliding distance of land and out of radio range of a land-based agency that can provide flight following, an airborne communications relay platform must be used. During night over-water operations, both front-seat crew members must be CAP qualified mission pilots and both will be instrument qualified and current. The right-seat pilot need not be qualified in that specific aircraft.
Someone from Long Island Group said that Connecticut is in violation of the AOR by patrolling the Long Island Sound.
Um, hey, check your chart, Junior - part of the Long Island Sound is in Connecticut waters. It's academic, mind you, the LIG doesn't patrol the Sound anyway. And the boaters saved won't care what wing the spotting aircraft is from!
I think there were articles in CAP News about some patrols flown over Lake Havasu and/or the Colorado River on July 4th for a few years. Not sure if they are still doing it. Also, think I saw something about NC wing flying some patrols over lakes last year.
Quote from: MIKE on May 10, 2008, 11:59:51 PM
What I mean is water survival... Part of the qualification for the Aux is swim qual, and part of that is being able to board a life raft from the water.
The Texas Wing does.
CT flies over the long Island Sound.
Sorry I didn't read the whole post and I was having a hard time modifying it. From what I hear most are Ct pilots don't have the proper gear to go beyond gliding distance from land.
Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on May 11, 2008, 12:02:34 AM
I thought I was on the right track! Still, we could have saved them a lot of man hours in that particular seach.
Ryan:
I remember that crash. It was off one of the Lake Erie Islands... North Bass Island if I recall correctly.
The CG took about two weeks to find it, and their Aux Air was never called. Since they didn't call their own Aux Air, they also didn't call us.
We would not have needed any special overwater equipment or training, since we would have always been within gliding distance from land. In fact, I have flown over those islands a lot, and you are usually within gliding distance of an airfield, even if it is the grass strip on Rattlesnake Island where all the Cleveland Mafia guys have built mansions on their private little island. (I always wonder how many mobsters are buried under that sod strip.)
In fact, running a mission out of Put-In-Bay would have been a big morale boost. No night flying, and finally a CAP mission in a good "Liberty port!"
Florida does over-water flying, especially down here in the Southeast Part of the state from time to time. There is a water survival class and a swim test you must pass before you are allowed to fly those missions. If I remember right, you have to swim three lengths of an Olympic size pool and then crawl into a life raft wearing flight suit and footwear.
Texas does a water survival course conducted by CG & CGAux Air personnel. I think it's just a class - no swim test - but, we do have the right gear & comply with that reg. We don't do any kind of regular sundown patrol, but some of our CD & HLS work, as well as some joint-ops w/ CG are over water. Some of that may or may not be happening right now.
Quote from: DNall on May 12, 2008, 05:04:47 PM
Texas does a water survival course conducted by CG & CGAux Air personnel. I think it's just a class - no swim test...
You guys do have a swim test...
Quote from: CFI_Ed on May 12, 2008, 08:35:51 PM
Quote from: DNall on May 12, 2008, 05:04:47 PM
Texas does a water survival course conducted by CG & CGAux Air personnel. I think it's just a class - no swim test...
You guys do have a swim test...
Yeah I don't know on that. I know CG does the course. When they're not avail then CGAux Air fills in for them. I understand the formal CG course that Aux takes involves a swim test, and I have no doubt a bunch of our folks have done that one. But, we're not required to be certified to that standard either. I know for a fact we've done classroom only presentations on several occasions. What standard we're applying for operational flights I couldn't say, I haven't been involved in that aspect for prob 10 years.
What I would suggest is... we have mountain flying as a specific ES qual. I'd suggest adding over water as another aircrew qual on the 101. By doing that we can state the CG course or authorized equiv, and we can include some material on air observation of water targets.
I'm not suggesting we knock out CGAux Air, but it's a good idea for us to be able to back them up on the SaR front, and there are other mission areas where we can make great use of the skill set.
Quote from: DNall on May 12, 2008, 09:16:57 PM
Quote from: CFI_Ed on May 12, 2008, 08:35:51 PM
Quote from: DNall on May 12, 2008, 05:04:47 PM
Texas does a water survival course conducted by CG & CGAux Air personnel. I think it's just a class - no swim test...
You guys do have a swim test...
Yeah I don't know on that. ...
What I would suggest is... we have mountain flying as a specific ES qual. I'd suggest adding over water as another aircrew qual on the 101. By doing that we can state the CG course or authorized equiv, and we can include some material on air observation of water targets.
I'm not suggesting we knock out CGAux Air, but it's a good idea for us to be able to back them up on the SaR front, and there are other mission areas where we can make great use of the skill set.
Well, the guys from OK who deployed to Corpus to fly with TX Wing said they had to pass a swim test after academics. I guess the same for the next crew.
Over Water qual is a good idea and would be easy to track. One of these days I should learn how to swim (without floaties ;D).
^ I think the deal is the CG course is the standard we're trying to go by, but it's not enforced by anyone (us or them). I know some people have done the full course. I know we've also had a CGAux Air officer out to do a couple hour brief at a conf & then declared the participants trained for subsequent mission purposes - not only trained, but CG trained.
I really don't like that. It's a simple course/certification. It'd be easy to track on 101, like I said.
Quote from: DNall on May 14, 2008, 07:52:44 PM
^ I think the deal is the CG course is the standard we're trying to go by, but it's not enforced by anyone (us or them). I know some people have done the full course. I know we've also had a CGAux Air officer out to do a couple hour brief at a conf & then declared the participants trained for subsequent mission purposes - not only trained, but CG trained.
I really don't like that. It's a simple course/certification. It'd be easy to track on 101, like I said.
I agree they need a definite guidelines for over water patroles and qualifications for them that way if something ever happens they can at least have somesort of standardized training.
Quote from: DNall on May 14, 2008, 07:52:44 PM
^ I think the deal is the CG course is the standard we're trying to go by, but it's not enforced by anyone (us or them). I know some people have done the full course. I know we've also had a CGAux Air officer out to do a couple hour brief at a conf & then declared the participants trained for subsequent mission purposes - not only trained, but CG trained.
I really don't like that. It's a simple course/certification. It'd be easy to track on 101, like I said.
In any event, I just noticed that there is a spot in Ops Quals to enter a Flight Crew Over Water Survival Training date.
Nice, now if we can just get a standard for what that means (ie CG course or approved equiv), and tracking on 101, we'll be all set. They put NIMS on there awful quick. Shouldn't be too hard to add this. Bonus is that as a 101 rating it requires recurring trng once every three years.
Quote from: JThemann on May 11, 2008, 01:53:11 AMConnecticut Wing is clearly in violation of our AOR. We are Long Island Group!
At least one crew has already received credit for a distress find on one of those very missions.
Looks like NC wing is out this weekend: http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2936827/
It is great to see the many Sundown Patrols that are active.
I knew Mississippi Wing has done Sundown Patrols for many years.
Question: Where does the funding come from for these flights? I always thought it was under an MOU with the USCG, but now have my doubts after reading many of the posts here which reference the USCG. ???
Maryland gets something from the Guard.
I think Connecticut managed to get their state EMA to pony up.
I'm not sure about Florida.
I was under the impression that they were often being funded by local governments for the most part. I think it will vary depending on the situation. However, I very much doubt the USCG would pay for it since they have CG Aux aircraft that they use for that purpose that are pretty active in coastal areas.
Quote from: RiverAux on May 25, 2008, 01:41:33 PM
I was under the impression that they were often being funded by local governments for the most part. I think it will vary depending on the situation. However, I very much doubt the USCG would pay for it since they have CG Aux aircraft that they use for that purpose that are pretty active in coastal areas.
Quite right. Even though they operationally cooperate with CAP wings doing over-water patrols (we can search out there, but they need to rescue), we have not, and will not get Coast Guard funding.
Maine also escorts Navy ships down the Kennebec River, and they do fire atch patrols, too. Long story short - our ELT mission nationwide is going to dry up and blow away with the new freqs. We must adapt like these wings are doing, or become irrelevant.
turk.
you really know how to stir the pot. First you dive into the uniform discussion, now you are laying out the future of ES missions. These are both very controversial topics, and have been beaten to death repeatedly.
Have fun storming the castle
.....Runs for cover.....
Quote from: isuhawkeye on May 25, 2008, 04:26:03 PM
turk.
you really know how to stir the pot. First you dive into the uniform discussion, now you are laying out the future of ES missions. These are both very controversial topics, and have been beaten to death repeatedly.
Have fun storming the castle
.....Runs for cover.....
The gradual fading of ELT searches is
obvious, not controversial.
To illustrate how missions morph, a key CAP mission in the late 1940s was painting directional signs on rooftops for pilots to see. I have no specific recommendations on what our ES programs should become - only only pointing out a few examples of what some proactive wings have already accomplished. ;D
An interesting turn of events for the NC mission I mentioned earlier. Here is another news story on it: http://www.wbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=8378550&nav=menu1434_3_1
Several times the fellow mentions contacting law enforcement, but mostly in context of being helpful, but then ends on this:
Quote"The only people that have got to worry are the people doing something wrong."
Here is a group of former CAP members who do over-water patrols for a sheriff's department: http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080530/NEWS02/80530024
Though I do wonder about their getting reimbursed for fuel and oil. CAP pilots need an FAA waiver to do that. Wonder how they're set up?
Back in the day when we were flying out of West Palm Beach, we did sundown patrols and we didn't have any life jackets or rafts or swimming tests. We also didn't venture beyond gliding distance from the beach. (I mean, just how far off the beach can you go and still see the bikini's??) Just kidding, let's not all get our panties in a wad. Do you know how hot it would be to fly in life preservers? And how cramped? We were flying in a new 152 and we could hardly move in our smurf suits.. Many a sweaty afternoon/evening and then off to the o'club or ABC lounge afterwards After ditching our smurf suits for our Jimmy Buffet outfits and B&L Aviator shades, naturally..