Officer Epaulets

[mikeylikey]

I just ran across a box of maroon and blue CAP officer epaulets.  The maroon ones did not surprise me, but the blue one's did.  How long ago did Cap Officers wear the Blue epaulets?  Another question is why are we not wearing these on the new corporate uniform instead of the AF epaulets?  They are the same as the current gray colored ones we wear now.  I say push to bring these back, but it is probably a fight CAP won't win!

[Pylon]

The blue epaulets are what CAP senior members once wore for the longest time.  After the whole Nat Commander promoting himself, we went straight from the blue to the maroon epaulets.

The maroon epaulets were phased out not too long ago when the current grey ones were finally introduced.  It looks as if we'll be sticking with the grey epaulets for some time to come.  In a recent interview, the AETC commander indicated that there was no change in the forseeable future of the old blue SM epaulets making a return.

And frankly, on a personal note, I don't care.  The grey work fine for me.  They look professional, they're distinct enough from the AF that I don't feel weird wearing them, and even more frankly -- I can get my job done no matter what color of cloth is on my shoulder.  You can put lime green epaulets on us, take away "officer" rank, and make all of us just "SMs" and I'll still be able to get my job done.   

I would rather see nothing change from the way they are now, because I don't want to shell out any more money, and neither should the rest of the membership.  The uniform works.  There are no problems with the way it is.  Why do we need to change it?

The mission, folks, the mission.

But anyways, back on topic, I don't have the exact years we switched from blue to maroon and maroon to grey.  I think the phase-out date for the maroon epaulets was listed in my 1997 paper CAPM 39-1; I can look when I get home.  I imagine the blue phase-out date would be in the version previous to that.

I'm sure some of our less-green members around here would recall the approximate dates that we made our Pantone-shuffle.

[Becks]

Grey is fine with me...but then again anything is better than berry-boards.

[SarDragon]

The berry-boards went away 1 Oct 96. I never bought nor wore them. Was inactive that whole time! Lucky me.

[Jerry]

There's a story behind the maroon epaulets, but best left off here, OK?   But, yes, we DID wear the blue USAF-style from the introduction of the epaulet shirts. Before that, it was a blue shirt with metal collar rank on the right and "CAP" cutouts on the left. Once upon a time, we work our rank on our flight caps and fatigue hats.  Many years.............................................
Anyone remember the "slick" perma-press trousers in the 70's (I think it was the 70's)

Jerry

[flyguy06]

I was a cadet in the mid 80's and I remember Sm's wearing the b;ue epulets. I wish they would brign them back.

Yes, Pylon, The mission first, but as I have said before. ES is the "mission" for all of us. My mission in CAP is cadet Programs, so for me, the uniform is a big issue

[md132]

It doesn't matter to me what color epaulets they are.  I think it looks fine on the uniforms.  I can understand why USAF doesn't want us to wear blue epaulets.  They want to make sure we look different then them, which is fine by me.  It's like the SDF's.  For MD, SDF use standard Army epaulets with MD cutout on it. 

The important thing is which ever program we do we do it right, whether it's Cadet Programs, Aerospace Education or Emergency Services.  As long as the uniform is functional that works for me. 

[mikeylikey]

It doesn't matter to me what color epaulets they are.  I think it looks fine on the uniforms.  I can understand why USAF doesn't want us to wear blue epaulets.  They want to make sure we look different then them, which is fine by me.  It's like the SD F's.  For MD, SDF use standard Army epaulets with MD cutout on it. 

The important thing is which ever program we do we do it right, whether it's Cadet Programs, Aerospace Education or Emergency Services.  As long as the uniform is functional that works for me. 

Like your MD SDF, CAP had the same distinctive embroidered "CAP" on the regular AF epaulets.  My biggest question is, if they do not want us (CAP) to look like them (AF) then why would they allow us to wear almost the same uniform, minus the blue shirt for a white one?  If we are allowed this, then change the current grey to blue but keep the "cap" embroidery on it like before.

[arajca]

The problem with changing the grey epaulets to blue and keeping the CAP on them is that they are worn on the AF uniform, therefore, the AF has to approve such a change. Which, IIRC, they have said they won't.

By changing the blue shirt to white, we are effectively creating a distinct uniform since the AF doesn't wear a white shirt as a service uniform. Also, the blue pants are styled after the AF pants, they're not required to be AF pants.

Besides, having epaulets matching the pants looks better than not. It has a more uniform look to it. (Pun intended)

[flyguy06]

From what I understand (and I could be wrong) Its not that the USAF didnt want us to look like them. many CAP members were wearing the uniform and not complying withthe heigth and weught standards. In others words. Overweight flks were weraing the military uniform. The average citizen doesnt know the difference between the USAF and CAP uniforms, so the USAF asked CAP to be more distnctive so that the average citizen would not think that overweight guy was an USAF personnel.

If Squadron Commanders were given more disciplinary authorityand held accountable for their members I dont think you would have that problem. But at many Squadrons, people dont listen to the Squadron CC and basically do what they want to do. At least that is wjhat my experience has been

[arajca]

From what I understand (and I could be wrong) Its not that the USAF didnt want us to look like them. many CAP members were wearing the uniform and not complying withthe heigth and weught standards. In others words. Overweight flks were weraing the military uniform. The average citizen doesnt know the difference between the USAF and CAP uniforms, so the USAF asked CAP to be more distnctive so that the average citizen would not think that overweight guy was an USAF personnel.

Not quite. A former CAP/CC royally po'd the AF by impersonating an General. As a result, CAP got the 'berryboards'. It wasn't until recently (last 10? years) that we got rid of them and got the grey boards.

If Squadron Commanders were given more disciplinary authorityand held accountable for their members I dont think you would have that problem. But at many Squadrons, people dont listen to the Squadron CC and basically do what they want to do. At least that is wjhat my experience has been

It boils down to respect.

[md132]

I'm sure that another problem that AF has is the fact that some SM's think that they are REAL officer's when they are not.  If they are/retired officer is one thing but it is another with a non-prior service member does it.  I recently saw one such SM at APG one day and saw him grilling an Army PVT for not saluting him.  This SM was a TFO as well.  I was there for a ChalleNGe registration and was in an SDF uniform (SSG).  Went up to this SM, ID'd my self to the SM and informed him that he cannot do what he just did.  Not even an AD NCO does that.  Of course the TFO was PO'd with me but walked away.  I appologized to the PVT and told him that not all CAP members are like that.  He said, "Thank you, SGT" and left.  So non-compliance of the height and weight standards is not the only concern AF has.  If you aren't an AD/Res/ANG/Ret officer, enlisted personnel do not have to render a salute and you can not correct them on it.  CAP officer ranks (FO - BGen) are honorary grades and are not entitled a salute by AD  personnel.  They are not restricted though.  I had an AF Amn ask me the question of whether he should render a salute to me or not and I told him it's not required.  Also as an SDF NCO they are not required to stand a parade rest in front of me.  They may do so if they wish.

[mikeylikey]

I'm sure that another problem that AF has is the fact that some Sm's think that they are REAL officer's when they are not.  If they are/retired officer is one thing but it is another with a non-prior service member does it.  I recently saw one such SM at APG one day and saw him grilling an Army PVT for not saluting him.  This SM was a TFO as well.  I was there for a Challenge registration and was in an SDF uniform (SSG).  Went up to this SM, Id's my self to the SM and informed him that he cannot do what he just did.  Not even an AD NCO does that.  Of course the TFO was Pod with me but walked away.  I apologized to the PVT and told him that not all CAP members are like that.  He said, "Thank you, SGT" and left.  So non-compliance of the height and weight standards is not the only concern AF has.  If you aren't an AD/Res/ANG/Rte officer, enlisted personnel do not have to render a salute and you can not correct them on it.  CAP officer ranks (FO - Ben) are honorary grades and are not entitled a salute by AD  personnel.  They are not restricted though.  I had an AF Amen ask me the question of whether he should render a salute to me or not and I told him it's not required.  Also as an SDF NCO they are not required to stand a parade rest in front of me.  They may do so if they wish.

I certany hope that the PVT had enough sense to realize the CAP TFO was not an officer to begin with.  Non-Cap people have no idea what the lines on his epaulet mean.  They do however know what officer insignia look like.  If I were him, I would have walked away the moment this guy said "I am an officer, salute me". 
Second Cap Officers do not have an "honorary grade".  They have a title bestowed on them by the corporation, which the AF authorized.  Finally, you were no better than the TFO, when you went in your SDF NCO uniform and lectured him, and introduced yourself to the PVT as an NCO.  Maybe I am wrong, but you did exactly what you saw the other guy do, just in a different manner. 
  Lastly, where I work, I have CAP Officers around most every day on the Post.  Even as an AD Captain, I still salute those Cap Officers that outrank me.  It really does boil down to respect.  You will find this practice on most installations where both CAP and military reside.

[Becks]

I certany hope that the PVT had enough sense to realize the CAP TFO was not an officer to begin with.

kinda confused with the sentence. Not an officer in CAP to begin with, or...?

CAPR-39-1
1-3. Definition of Terms:
a. Officer: ...includes senior member grades flight officer through major general...

[Lamh Dearg]

"....Second Cap Officers do not have an "honorary grade".  They have a title bestowed on them by the corporation, which the AF authorized...."

CAP officers are "appointed", not commissioned, the ultimate appointing authority being the Secretary of the Air Force.
The commissioning authority for USAF, USAFR and Guard officers is the President.

[Becks]

Ahh ok, like I said, I was confused by the sentence, I was refering to within CAP itself.

[flyguy06]

I'm sure that another problem that AF has is the fact that some Sm's think that they are REAL officer's when they are not.  If they are/retired officer is one thing but it is another with a non-prior service member does it.  I recently saw one such SM at APG one day and saw him grilling an Army PVT for not saluting him.  This SM was a TFO as well.  I was there for a Challenge registration and was in an SDF uniform (SSG).  Went up to this SM, Id's my self to the SM and informed him that he cannot do what he just did.  Not even an AD NCO does that.  Of course the TFO was Pod with me but walked away.  I apologized to the PVT and told him that not all CAP members are like that.  He said, "Thank you, SGT" and left.  So non-compliance of the height and weight standards is not the only concern AF has.  If you aren't an AD/Res/ANG/Rte officer, enlisted personnel do not have to render a salute and you can not correct them on it.  CAP officer ranks (FO - Ben) are honorary grades and are not entitled a salute by AD  personnel.  They are not restricted though.  I had an AF Amen ask me the question of whether he should render a salute to me or not and I told him it's not required.  Also as an SDF NCO they are not required to stand a parade rest in front of me.  They may do so if they wish.

I certany hope that the PVT had enough sense to realize the CAP TFO was not an officer to begin with.  Non-Cap people have no idea what the lines on his epaulet mean.  They do however know what officer insignia look like.  If I were him, I would have walked away the moment this guy said "I am an officer, salute me". 
Second Cap Officers do not have an "honorary grade".  They have a title bestowed on them by the corporation, which the AF authorized.  Finally, you were no better than the TFO, when you went in your SDF NCO uniform and lectured him, and introduced yourself to the PVT as an NCO.  Maybe I am wrong, but you did exactly what you saw the other guy do, just in a different manner. 
  Lastly, where I work, I have CAP Officers around most every day on the Post.  Even as an AD Captain, I still salute those Cap Officers that outrank me.  It really does boil down to respect.  You will find this practice on most installations where both CAP and military reside.

All that is taught in Level I Training and people should already be aware of that. by the way, what is SDF. You used a lot of acronyms that I have noidea what they mean.

CAP Officer grades ae not honorary. they are rank that we as a corporate organization have decided to use. The military has no control over our rank structure whatso ever.

[Becks]

I assume SDF means State Defense Force, essentially a state sanctioned militia.

[flyguy06]

Thanks Becks. I was wondering what that meant. If you are talking to a grup that is not familiar with your organization, please dont use acronyms. We have no idea what you are talking about. I am familar with the State denfence Force and you are right, its essentially a volunteer frorce but withthe backing of the state Dept of Defense. Here in Georgia, they ran our armories while we were deployed to Iraq. They met us at Ft Stewart when we returned home.

[Becks]

Yup, here in SC they take over the duties of the national guard during emergancies if the NG is unavailable.