Insignia Oddity

[LSThiker]

What do you expect from an organization that not only doesn't supply you with the uniforms you "need," but doesn't even allow you to directly purchase through them?

We'd be happy to supply you with the required uniforms as part of your membership packet, and replace them thereafter upon request.

You're OK with dues of $400 a year, right?

And even when CAP sold the insignia directly through CAPMART and the Bookstore, you know that we just bought the insignia from VG (and a few other vendors), marked it up a little, and then sold it to members?  It's not like we used cadets producing the insignia in encampment sweatshops.

See, there you go! Apprentice-ship & job training for cadets...

It is a new NCSA for career orientation in the Quartermaster Corps and the MOS 92S (Army Fabric Repair Specialist).   

[ProdigalJim]

Given that we spend a bunch of money up front on our own for these kinds of things anyway, it might not be a bad idea to charge a first-year/first-membership fee that includes a single uniform issue. I realize Ned was posting somewhat in jest, but there's a kernel of an idea in there that might be worth thinking about.

Even so, this obscures the larger point that several posters on this thread have been trying to make, namely: Vanguard, while well-meaning and operating under constraints CAP has set for them, nonetheless doesn't seem able to produce insignia of a consistent quality and this makes us literally look bad. Given that the USAF doesn't like it when we look bad, I don't think it's unreasonable for the members to ask whether something can be done to improve the situation.

I've offered a suggestion that is, I think, reasonable and workable (i.e., adopt the MIL-DTL-14645 standard that Vanguard undoubtedly already uses for its USAF work, given that the Institute of Heraldry lists Vanguard as an approved insignia manufacturer). There may be other suggestions that are equally reasonable and workable. I don't claim to have a monopoly on The Best Idea. But I think the topic is worth discussing, and I think as members we ought to have a mechanism for making our desires known. Complaining isn't enough...I've complained to Vanguard as have other members, and their customer service folks have been, to a person, diligent, friendly and worked hard to make me feel better. But I still had to wait nearly five months to get leather name patches that would work on my flight jacket, and I'm still waiting (see the pictures earlier in this thread) for shoulder marks that look the same and fit on the shirt. The GT badges James posted tell a similar story. I have some that I simply won't wear because they look unprofessional.

Individual ad hoc complaints don't seem to be adding up to a real effort to address the persistent problems of quality and consistency, and if we're going to get beaten up for looking bad in uniform, we ought to have a way to pull some levers to fix the insignia-quality problem.

[bma21]

Seems we have more of an answer to what is going on...

Please accept my apologies for not getting back to you sooner concerning the problems with your Captain Epaulets.
 
Thank you for your suggestions concerning the epaulets. We are in the process of re-specking all the CAP epaulets. We thought we had the problem corrected but, it is very clear that we do not.
 
Myself, Vanguard's General Manager John McClain, Susie Parker, and Col Richard Griffith are meeting at the National conference next week to address the issue. We hope to get authorized sizing and fabric color.
 
Once the epaulets are re-made to National's approval we will send you a replacement pair of Captain epaulets. Until then what you received is what was previously agreed on between Vanguard and Civil Air Patrol.
 
Please contact me if  you have further questions or concerns.
 

[SAREXinNY]

bma21, I'm very confused.  You say that you are in the process of re-specking the epaulets.  You then say that you thought "we had the problem corrected but, it is very clear that we do not."  And then you go on to say "what you received is what was previously agreed on between Vanguard and Civil Air Patrol."

I don't think you can have it both ways.  Was it a problem that you thought you corrected but hadn't, or was it a design that was agreed upon by all parties?

Unfortunately I ordered THREE sets of these epaulets which arrived a couple of weeks ago...and all three sets have the Capt bars centered. It looks ridiculous and completely out-of-whack with every other set of epaulets for other grades.  Normally I wouldn't care too much but I have RSC coming up, I was recently promoted, and I don't have any other Captains in my squadron to borrow from while I'm gone.  I sent Vanguard customer service an email five days ago asking for clarification (i.e. can I get corrected replacement(s)) and haven't received a reply back.

[TheSkyHornet]

bma21, I'm very confused.  You say that you are in the process of re-specking the epaulets.  You then say that you thought "we had the problem corrected but, it is very clear that we do not."  And then you go on to say "what you received is what was previously agreed on between Vanguard and Civil Air Patrol."

I don't think you can have it both ways.  Was it a problem that you thought you corrected but hadn't, or was it a design that was agreed upon by all parties?

Unfortunately I ordered THREE sets of these epaulets which arrived a couple of weeks ago...and all three sets have the Capt bars centered. It looks ridiculous and completely out-of-whack with every other set of epaulets for other grades.  Normally I wouldn't care too much but I have RSC coming up, I was recently promoted, and I don't have any other Captains in my squadron to borrow from while I'm gone.  I sent Vanguard customer service an email five days ago asking for clarification (i.e. can I get corrected replacement(s)) and haven't received a reply back.

Anyone who was once a Captain that you can borrow from?
Although, I'm assuming you probably already thought of that.

I just ordered my Blues and accessories on Vanguard. I have a PD weekend coming up in October and I want to try to get everything sorted well in advance. I almost just settled for the polo/slacks, but didn't feel like getting yet another uniform I didn't need and didn't want to have just to save time. They just shipped out this morning, and my nerves are racking based on what I've heard. I'm really not a fan of not being able to see something in-person when I buy it or try it on knowing that there's a record of discrepancies with consistency.

Really hoping I don't end up having to attend in civies like a pud.

[Flying Pig]

I still have my fathers AF Blue CAP Captain epaulets from back in the early 90s.  They are very high quality and to this day, look nice.  Very sad to see the decline. 

[bma21]

bma21, I'm very confused.  You say that you are in the process of re-specking the epaulets.  You then say that you thought "we had the problem corrected but, it is very clear that we do not."  And then you go on to say "what you received is what was previously agreed on between Vanguard and Civil Air Patrol."

I don't think you can have it both ways.  Was it a problem that you thought you corrected but hadn't, or was it a design that was agreed upon by all parties?

Unfortunately I ordered THREE sets of these epaulets which arrived a couple of weeks ago...and all three sets have the Capt bars centered. It looks ridiculous and completely out-of-whack with every other set of epaulets for other grades.  Normally I wouldn't care too much but I have RSC coming up, I was recently promoted, and I don't have any other Captains in my squadron to borrow from while I'm gone.  I sent Vanguard customer service an email five days ago asking for clarification (i.e. can I get corrected replacement(s)) and haven't received a reply back.

I am sorry I confused you.  I do not actually work for Vanguard.  I had emailed them and I posted the reply they gave me.  They are in the process of respecking the epaulettes.  I have also not heard anything further on this from them other than the reply I posted.  If I do I will add here.

[Storm Chaser]

There's no way the "defective" epaulet design is "what was previously agreed on between Vanguard and Civil Air Patrol." Vanguard has been supplying CAP epaulets for years. Any changes in design or quality is on them. How come they have no issues with similar Air Force insignias and uniform items they supply?

[Ned]

Well, one reason is that we can't simply use the AF specs for our epaulette sleeves because ours have to fit on the service coat epaulettes, which are wider than the shirt.  Obviously the quality and embroidery should be as good, but it's not as simple as "just use the AF specs."

But we all agree on the need for high quality, professional appearing insignia at a reasonable cost.

Ned Lee

[Capt Thompson]

Maybe now that we're a part of the Total Force, we can have the same quality as the rest of the force?

I have grey 1st Lt's from the early 2000's, and 2 new pairs I bought from VG when I returned in January, and I wear the old set because despite being slightly faded, they look 100% better. I'm currently searching eBay for older sets of Capt so I can have them when I'm eligible, I've seen recent VG Capt's and they look just as bad as my 1st Lt's.

Sad to say, but I have items from The Hock that look better than ones I purchased recently from VG.

[SAREXinNY]

My apologies to bma21 for assuming he worked for the big-V.

I still haven't received a reply from Vanguard from my email two weeks ago asking them about corrected replacements, reimbursements, refunds, etc. for the three Capt epaulets I received, so tonight I disputed the charge with my credit card company.  Although I'm sure they don't care much, I hope they get the point.  I refuse to pay for epaulets that I can't even use.

[LSThiker]

My apologies to bma21 for assuming he worked for the big-V.

I still haven't received a reply from Vanguard from my email two weeks ago asking them about corrected replacements, reimbursements, refunds, etc. for the three Capt epaulets I received, so tonight I disputed the charge with my credit card company.  Although I'm sure they don't care much, I hope they get the point.  I refuse to pay for epaulets that I can't even use.

You do realize that the General Manager for Vanguard East and Rita, Vanguard's CAP coordinator, were out of the office for the last week at the National Conference?  Perhaps another a follow-up email would be beneficial now that they have return.