Why do we have the flag on our BDUs?
I thought that we (CAP) was supposed to be following the USAF uniform regulations.
The USAF does not wear the US Flag on their BDUs.
"Legal" answer: Because CAPM 39-1 and/or policy letters and/or national board says so.
Real answer: no idea. it's something they came up with to further irritate people like you and me.
Apparently you're expectations were set incorrectly.
We wear USAF style uniforms, that follow a few of the same general rules of accoutroment placement and such. We don't follow the AF uniform regs at all. We follow CAPM 39-1 any similarity between the 2 documents was likely intentional, but won't be cut and pasted from the AFM
It was due to a certain person discovering there is a Brazilian CAP and didn't want us to be confused for them when we go overseas. ;D
But then again, he came up with the third world generals uniform for us. Go figure.
how original -- someone complaining about uniforms on captalk.
Quote from: D2SK on April 20, 2009, 07:58:52 PM
how original -- someone complaining about uniforms on captalk.
In the 76 posts you have made on this forum, have you ever made a comment that was not sarcastic or outright offensive, and actually contributed to the discussion in a meaningful way?
rebowman: the short answer is that its because the previous National Commander, Major General Pineda, wanted it there.
My commentary on the matter is that he was infatuated with all things military, and looked to the Army's uniforms to "spruce up" Civil Air Patrol uniforms. He invented other uniforms to satisfy ego, and finally has invented his very own organization to that end (the U.S. Ranger Corps).
I love what our flag stands for, and I appreciate the United States Army, but I don't feel the need to emulate their uniforms in my Civil Air Patrol.
Quote from: SJFedor on April 20, 2009, 03:53:00 PM
Real answer: no idea. it's something they came up with to further irritate people like you and me.
Mission accomplished. ;D
Quote from: DC on April 21, 2009, 12:36:46 AM
Quote from: D2SK on April 20, 2009, 07:58:52 PM
how original -- someone complaining about uniforms on captalk.
In the 76 posts you have made on this forum, have you ever made a comment that was not sarcastic or outright offensive, and actually contributed to the discussion in a meaningful way?
There have been three such posts. Thank you for asking.
Quote from: es_g0d on April 21, 2009, 01:14:10 AM
I love what our flag stands for, and I appreciate the United States Army, but I don't feel the need to emulate their uniforms in my Civil Air Patrol.
Only the Army wears flag patches?? Firefighters, police, some other federal agencies as well.
I don't think he was trying to be "Army".
How long have we had them now? Enough already. It may seem stupid, or wrong to wear them, but be a good volunteer and follow the orders of those above you. If it is so bad, it will FAIL ON ITS OWN, with no help from anyone else.
Quote from: Spike on April 21, 2009, 03:27:30 PM
Quote from: es_g0d on April 21, 2009, 01:14:10 AM
I love what our flag stands for, and I appreciate the United States Army, but I don't feel the need to emulate their uniforms in my Civil Air Patrol.
Only the Army wears flag patches?? Firefighters, police, some other federal agencies as well.
From military branches. It's a military (style) uniform, not a public service uniform.
Quote
I don't think he was trying to be "Army".
They're the only branch that normally wears that flag on that style uniform.
If only the army wears the flag patch, should I tell the USAF personnal that they need to remove the patch from their flight suits?
Quote from: BillB on April 21, 2009, 04:02:18 PM
If only the army wears the flag patch, should I tell the USAF personnal that they need to remove the patch from their flight suits?
I'm trying to figure out why we care what anyone else wears on their uniform. CAP uniforms aren't army, air force, navy, marine, coast guard, boy scout or any other uniforms. They may be styled after the AF, but they are distinctive to CAP. So, you wear a flag on your BDUs because that's what the regs say. Stop whining and suck it up. If you want to wear an AF uniform, go enlist.
Well, I am in the RM and I like wearing the "AIr Force" uniform. I dont see the need to wear an American Flag on it though. I dont see the need to wear it on my Army ACU's either. It was originally supposed to be worn when doing overseas duty. But they changed the rules and hey, we role with it. I dont like it, but I do it.
Other than cadets, can you imagine someone actually being "called on the carpet" for not wearing a flag on their BDU's? If they find the time to add it to the 39-1( which the Air Force might notice) I might find the time to add a flag to my BDU's. CAP Senior Members traditionally wear crappy uniforms, and its rare to see one thats actually correct. No one will notice a thing like this when there are members walking around in AF style uniforms looking like sperm whales wrapped in sea weed.
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on April 21, 2009, 06:31:15 PM
Other than cadets, can you imagine someone actually being "called on the carpet" for not wearing a flag on their BDU's?
Major Lord
We need to set the example for our cadets. Please wear the uniform correctly or choose to wear one of the other options. We have a polo combo for a reason. We don't do regular inpsection of our adult members because they are adults and should know how to follow the rules. We should police ourselves.
Quote from: LtCol Hooligan on April 21, 2009, 07:34:53 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on April 21, 2009, 06:31:15 PM
Other than cadets, can you imagine someone actually being "called on the carpet" for not wearing a flag on their BDU's?
Major Lord
We need to set the example for our cadets. Please wear the uniform correctly or choose to wear one of the other options. We have a polo combo for a reason. We don't do regular inpsection of our adult members because they are adults and should know how to follow the rules. We should police ourselves.
:clap:
Quote from: Major Lord on April 21, 2009, 06:31:15 PM...CAP Senior Members traditionally wear crappy uniforms, and its rare to see one thats actually correct. No one will notice a thing like this when there are members walking around in AF style uniforms looking like sperm whales wrapped in sea weed.
Thank God I'm one of the rare donut-eatin' s-members who wear their uniform CORRECTLY at all times. Musta been my many years as a cadink.
'Sperm whales wrapped in seaweed'?!?!? You musta seen some pretty disgusting examples (as have I)... I just can't get my twisted imagination wrapped around the adage! ;D
HAHA, sorry I may never get that image out of my head again....thanks........
Anyways I'm gonna agree with AlphaSigOU that former cadets seem to be a little more...."cautious" about how they wear their uniform. Though I know plenty of seniors that have outstanding uniforms, within AF regs (not that extra 10% we CAP'ers get) and were not cadets. Just comes down to how much you care I guess.
Don't misconstrue disagreement with the regulations as an unwillingness to follow them. A leader may begin by pointing out what's wrong with a regulation.
Folks, most of what we can put on our BDU serves no useful purpose and this is just one of those things. We don't need it on the flight suit either, but its been there for a long time.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 21, 2009, 11:58:01 PM
We don't need it on the flight suit either, but its been there for a long time.
Most of us don't. I do believe that overseas units should wear the flag, or the CAP emblem patch with the US on it to identify it as part of a US organization.
Otherwise, I think that we could stand to mirror the Air Force with theirs and allow either a wing, or optional patch on that arm. I think that unit insignia should be worn on the right side, just like the Air Force. With the wing patch on the right arm, it always seemed to me that the message was that the wing was more important than the unit itself. If you're assigned to wing, it's appropriate, if assigned to a group or squadron, it doesn't seem to be.
Quote from: BillB on April 21, 2009, 04:02:18 PM
If only the army wears the flag patch, should I tell the USAF personnal that they need to remove the patch from their flight suits?
We all know that. If you want to discuss flight suits, then we could change the topic to that.
Quote from: jaybird512 on April 21, 2009, 03:35:14 PM
Quote from: Spike on April 21, 2009, 03:27:30 PM
Quote from: es_g0d on April 21, 2009, 01:14:10 AM
I love what our flag stands for, and I appreciate the United States Army, but I don't feel the need to emulate their uniforms in my Civil Air Patrol.
Only the Army wears flag patches?? Firefighters, police, some other federal agencies as well.
From military branches. It's a military (style) uniform, not a public service uniform.
Quote
I don't think he was trying to be "Army".
They're the only branch that normally wears that flag on that style uniform.
Just FYI the US Public Health Service wears the flag on BDUs ....they are a uniformed service. So 2 of 7 wear it this way. Interesting side note the USPHS wears Navy style uniform and the USN does not wear the flag on BDUs....my point is you can wear a "style" and still do your own thing as a group or service.
"Unless a Corps officer is actively detailed to the Department of Defense or one of its uniformed services, officers are not authorized to wear the U.S. Flag patch. This includes both the full color version (which is the only one authorized for the Corps) or the subdued version of the U.S. Flag."
Regardless, the Army is the only service that wears its flags backwards. Unless you include CAP imitating the Army.
Quote from: Gunner C on April 26, 2009, 04:09:54 AM
"Unless a Corps officer is actively detailed to the Department of Defense or one of its uniformed services, officers are not authorized to wear the U.S. Flag patch. This includes both the full color version (which is the only one authorized for the Corps) or the subdued version of the U.S. Flag."
Regardless, the Army is the only service that wears its flags backwards. Unless you include CAP imitating the Army.
Ah, but the Army is not wearing the flag "backwards". The field is supposed to be to the front at all times.
"The flag never retreats."
This is the same reason why they use two different flag decals on aircraft. The blue field is
always forward.
Quote from: PHall on April 26, 2009, 05:59:14 AM
Quote from: Gunner C on April 26, 2009, 04:09:54 AM
"Unless a Corps officer is actively detailed to the Department of Defense or one of its uniformed services, officers are not authorized to wear the U.S. Flag patch. This includes both the full color version (which is the only one authorized for the Corps) or the subdued version of the U.S. Flag."
Regardless, the Army is the only service that wears its flags backwards. Unless you include CAP imitating the Army.
Ah, but the Army is not wearing the flag "backwards". The field is supposed to be to the front at all times.
"The flag never retreats."
This is the same reason why they use two different flag decals on aircraft. The blue field is always forward.
Actually, the flag on aircraft is that way because flags were originally flown from the biplane rigging - they were viewed either way. There were
NO backwards flags that were worn before the army dictated it that were the blue field on the right side, which, BTW, changes the heraldry of the flag significantly (bar sinister/bar dexter thing). It's a made up army fad. Read: balony.
I can't believe all this whinning. We are AMERICANS...be proud to wear the flag at any time!!!
Quote from: rjfoxx on April 26, 2009, 11:02:11 AM
I can't believe all this whinning. We are AMERICANS...be proud to wear the flag at any time!!!
If you need a patch to show how patriotic you are........
Quote from: rjfoxx on April 26, 2009, 11:02:11 AM
I can't believe all this whinning. We are AMERICANS...be proud to wear the flag at any time!!!
I agree!
Quote from: Gunner C on April 26, 2009, 09:51:01 AM
Quote from: PHall on April 26, 2009, 05:59:14 AM
Quote from: Gunner C on April 26, 2009, 04:09:54 AM
"Unless a Corps officer is actively detailed to the Department of Defense or one of its uniformed services, officers are not authorized to wear the U.S. Flag patch. This includes both the full color version (which is the only one authorized for the Corps) or the subdued version of the U.S. Flag."
Regardless, the Army is the only service that wears its flags backwards. Unless you include CAP imitating the Army.
Ah, but the Army is not wearing the flag "backwards". The field is supposed to be to the front at all times.
"The flag never retreats."
This is the same reason why they use two different flag decals on aircraft. The blue field is always forward.
Actually, the flag on aircraft is that way because flags were originally flown from the biplane rigging - they were viewed either way. There were NO backwards flags that were worn before the army dictated it that were the blue field on the right side, which, BTW, changes the heraldry of the flag significantly (bar sinister/bar dexter thing). It's a made up army fad. Read: balony.
I suggest you might want to read the US Flag Code. You can find it via Google.
Hint: Aircraft are considered "vessels" and follow the same rules.
I just don't care to see the Air Force Auxiliary imitating the US Army in a vain attempt to "look more military."
I think the main thing that irritates most people about the flag patch on the BDU's is the "supposed" reason why we're wearing it and the way the change was made.
If this had gone through the normal uniform change procedures and had been voted on by the entire National Board, there probably wouldn't so much fuss about it.
And if you did it today, it probably would have died on the floor. Or maybe that is wishful thinking?
Whether or not the AF does it on their uniforms, they approved letting it be on our version. Makes no difference to me either way whether we wear it or not, though I'm generally in favor of keeping stuff on the BDUs to a minimum.
Actually......the AF did have it on their uniforms. Before they got ABU's those Airmen assigned to Army Units or working with Army units wore ACU's, with the flag attached.
Now....is that relevant to our discussion, probably not!
Is it so bad to have it on the shoulder? Is it hurting you in some way?? CAP is CAP, Army is Army, and AF is AF. Three separate organizations.
Don't forget that the BDU's you are wearing are an Army uniform, that was shared with the other services in a "cost saving measure".
So most reasoning for not wearing the flag is mute opinions, not facts.
Aesthetics aside, what harm is it doing? What problem is it causing, thus what solution do you "flag patch haters" propose??
Since CAP does have a wartime mission, (I know, it's been 64 years), the flag is worn to show you're covered by the Geneva Convention.
Quote from: Cecil DP on April 26, 2009, 06:49:18 PM
Since CAP does have a wartime mission, (I know, it's been 64 years), the flag is worn to show you're covered by the Geneva Convention.
That's a pretty big stretch.
Of course, if you look on a Military ID Card it has the phrase "Geneva Conventions Identification Card" on it.
If we really needed to show that we're covered by the Geneva Conventions then that phrase could be added to CAP ID card very easily.
But do we really need it?
^ Have you ever read the Geneva Convention?
There are stipulations about wearing a uniform distinctly different and identifiable from your enemy. Flag Patches did just that during World War Two.
Spike:
No, the CAP is part of the Air Force. Drink the kool-aid, but not the stuff that CAP-USAFers are handing out! :D
Quote from: Spike on April 26, 2009, 07:42:54 PM
^ Have you ever read the Geneva Convention?
There are stipulations about wearing a uniform distinctly different and identifiable from your enemy. Flag Patches did just that during World War Two.
Mater of fact, yes I have, and I had "The Laws of Armed Conflict" and "Geneva Conventions" training at least every year or two for my entire 31 year Air Force career.
The uniform identifies you as a "lawful combatant", the card says which category you are, i.e. enlisted, officer, medical, chaplain.
As a matter of fact the CAP uniform hs nothing on it that says United States anything and CAP doesn't have a Geneva Convention Card or anything else designating status.
Quote from: Spike on April 26, 2009, 07:42:54 PM
^ Have you ever read the Geneva Convention?
There are stipulations about wearing a uniform distinctly different and identifiable from your enemy. Flag Patches did just that during World War Two.
Flags were worn on the jump smocks of the 101st ABN Div, possibly the 82nd as a "far recognition signal". No one else used it. There's no historical precident for backwards flags on the uniform.